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Should there be a hard cap for damage per second?

sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 6,507 Arc User
Looking at how startled the developers were when dps numbers went through the roof with DR and things like Surgical Strikes 3... might it not be a solution to code a hard maximum cap for dps into the game? In other words, implement into the game "no ship can do more than 20'000 damage per second" rule?

That way, players would be encouraged to max out dps and then do other stuff with their ships' abilities, like crowd control, debuffingy, healing, or snares.

Moreover, any new damage-enhancing ability would be a lot easier to balance for the devs.

Or what would, in your opinion, be the drawbacks of such a hard cap?
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Comments

  • blakes7tvseriesblakes7tvseries Member Posts: 704 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    While I'm not a PVPer now , I use to rock it years ago, then it became broken.

    If you really want PVP now that's balanced, then ask Cryptic.

    Ask them what, ask them to give pre-made PVP queue where they put you in a pre-made ship.

    They turn off the DOFFs and Traits and let you fly ships they configured to be balanced.

    They could also bring back classic PVP.

    Until then stop trying to pee on the PVE crowds cereal; because you want your cheese balanced.
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  • js26568js26568 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    No, the amount of DPS people can do is not a problem.

    You mentioned the problem yourself without realising - the problem is the fact that the developers were SURPRISED by the amount of DPS that people can do.

    Do you know why they were surprised? Because they keep releasing new systems without testing them.

    THAT's the problem.
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  • plaztikman64plaztikman64 Member Posts: 725 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    And what's next? A hard cap to damage/in? One can only absorb x damage before he pops...
  • jaymclaughlinjaymclaughlin Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    So they cap everyone's dps... so people get to that point... Wow... I'm awesome and all my gear is the best... no need to buy any of the new shiny things from the cstore... no need to bother grinding dil for upgrades... no need to to do any of the new Rep systems.
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  • js26568js26568 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Sure, there do not seem to be the work conditions to spot all that damage stacking and mitigate it. But that is a lot harder to change than implementing such a hard cap hence my proposal.

    Hopefully they won't take this easy way out. It'd be a slap in the face to people who work hard on their builds and try to do the best they can.

    SS3 needs a tweak when used against other players, no doubt about that (they can do this without affecting PvE damage so calm down) but people who do their damage without using broken abilities like SS3 shouldn't suffer. After all, it's not the fault of the players that these systems keep getting rushed out without proper testing is it?
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  • tk79tk79 Member Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    There's no such thing as hardcapping DPS itself, programmatically and mathematically speaking.

    You need to change everything that's involved in DPS, in other words, all powers, be them attacks, buffs, or debuffs; and their properties that are related to DPS, such as base damage and cooldowns.

    So a proper answer to "Want to hardcap DPS" question is simply "nerf all powers". There's no way out of that.
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  • jaymclaughlinjaymclaughlin Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    sophlogimo wrote: »

    The question, would it actually improve the game or not, and how?

    It would make people stop playing due to not being able to 'progress' any further other than every 6 months or so when a new FE is released

    Therefore, the game wouldn't probably die within a year
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  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    You can't sensibly cap dps, the devs could however decide on how much damage they realistically want players doing and attach diminishing returns at the top end to discourage people from trying to squeeze the maximum possible dps out of things.
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  • jaymclaughlinjaymclaughlin Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    But why?

    What if people want to do as much dps as they can?
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  • jaymclaughlinjaymclaughlin Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    So the solution in your eyes is to make the good players not so good rather than the poor players better?
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  • roadghostroadghost Member Posts: 394 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Playing with DPS is a big part of the game for some folks. Like gearheads crawling under the hood of a '69 Nickey Nova, tweaking the jets on the carbs to get an extra eighth of a horsepower out of it.

    It's fun. Most people probably aren't going to be able to tell the difference between a 30k and at 33k dps ship. I know I can't. But I wouldn't want to be limited if I enjoyed that.
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    In PVE, the enormous gaps in DPS destroy PUG matches.

    Not seeing that. I have never said "Oh darn it, three Scimitars. I hate it when I know a PUG is guaranteed success."

    More like "Woohoo! Speed Run! Gimme the schwag!"
  • jerichoredoranjerichoredoran Member Posts: 195 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    adamkafei wrote: »
    You can't sensibly cap dps, the devs could however decide on how much damage they realistically want players doing and attach diminishing returns at the top end to discourage people from trying to squeeze the maximum possible dps out of things.

    There are already many DRs around and still it is often more efficient to specialize as much as possible.
    On a side note: This goes to most such games out there and is not a STO problem.

    Capping DPS is not as simple as you think. Thats two diffent things: Damage and Time. Damage comes from multiple sources concurrently while time runs independant of that. Also no skill or ability has a DPS value anyway. The one in tooltip is only calculated in current circumstances (and therefore most of the time plainly wrong).
  • js26568js26568 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    This is just a bad idea. Arbitrary hard caps are not fun. You remember fun, right?
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  • js26568js26568 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Are you seriously trying to say yoi believe such a cap would be hard to program? :rolleyes:

    Let us discuss whether it would improve the game or not.

    It wouldn't improve the game. A DPS hard-cap is a time gate. It'll take longer to kill things because there's a DPS hard-cap. Even the most amazing players will be forced to sit and wait while their enforced tiny DPS chips away at an NPC. It'd be like chinese water torture.
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  • tk79tk79 Member Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Are you seriously trying to say yoi believe such a cap would be hard to program? :rolleyes:

    Can you provide an example algorithm to back up your claim?
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  • jaymclaughlinjaymclaughlin Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    What I think you really want is for new content to be added that isn't purely a 'kill xyz before the timer runs out or you fail' scenario.
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  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    NO!

    a hard cap is a poor way to solve the problem. It means that you can hit a cap with sub par gear, and that "upgrades" are no longer "upgrades" because they no long do anything.

    The way to solve the "problem" is to change how dps works, from the ground up. There are too many things that multiply together. In most games, the difference between top and bottom dps is usually less than 25, maybe 50%. Here, its its not even %s anymore... its a factor of 10X or more.

    Normalize the dps, so the gap between the top and bottom** are NO MORE than doubled.

    **bottom needs a baseline, so lets say: with the gear that comes on the ship. You could obviously make it worse by intentionally messing things up.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Capping DPS is not as simple as you think. Thats two diffent things: Damage and Time. Damage comes from multiple sources concurrently while time runs independant of that. Also no skill or ability has a DPS value anyway. The one in tooltip is only calculated in current circumstances (and therefore most of the time plainly wrong).

    I didn't say I thought it simple, nor did I say I think it's a good idea, I simply suggested a potential route should the devs decide they wanted to do something of the like.

    As it is I think the devs should set NPC stats based on common Mk 13 or 14 (probably 13) gear and common sense builds (for example cycling of EPtX skills, no counter productive or wasted skills/consoles), this would present greater challenge than pre-DR but without the feeling of futility at higher levels when using only Mk 12 gear.

    At a guess I would suggest this would lower the bar to around 8k dps, as it is now the only build I have that feels like it's performing well is my 20k tac/scort, my other builds do between 10k and 14k depending on the team.
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  • johnstewardjohnsteward Member Posts: 1,073 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Looking at how startled the developers were when dps numbers went through the roof with DR and things like Surgical Strikes 3... might it not be a solution to code a hard maximum cap for dps into the game? In other words, implement into the game "no ship can do more than 20'000 damage per second" rule?

    That way, players would be encouraged to max out dps and then do other stuff with their ships' abilities, like crowd control, debuffingy, healing, or snares.

    Moreover, any new damage-enhancing ability would be a lot easier to balance for the devs.

    Or what would, in your opinion, be the drawbacks of such a hard cap?

    So what you are saying is because the devs dont actually understand their own game and have no clue what the word balance means and because most players never go beyond the one-ability-activated-per-minute-hurdle those that actually do need to be capped because reason?

    Thats basically punishing players for being good at a game. Like capping the goals inna soccer match or like a baseball gane where no team may advance more than one point on the other team to keep the match interesting.

    How about you learn to play the game its designed or the devs rebalance their game for everyone?

    There are 8 different factors mixing together when it comes to dps. How about the devs remove dmg reduction via distance to target or change the way overcapping or faw/crf itself work? Or rebalance all the traits they are selling via lockboxes or lobi or T6 ship traits? Or maybe male some missions to explain to ppl hoe to actually play the game they designed?

    Simple fact is they want to sell us more powercreep so capping dps would be counter-productive to that goal and really in the end we small number of guys doing over 50k dps after the recent plasma console nerf dont actually hurt the game - maybe the ego of some players or devs but not the game in general.

    Most ppl like you complain only because they dont want a reminder that shows them how bad they really are. Deal with it and leave me and my guys out of it.
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    You would penalize a segment of the player base because a few folks are unhappy with their success. That is no good reason for a hard-cap on damage output.
    Having a hard cap would alienate a community that is buying Zen for dilithium for upgrades, ships for traits to improve DPS, etc?
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    A hard cap on DPS would just make a certain group of individuals feel better about how poorly they play the game, imho.

    I'd prefer they addressed the underlying formulas, personally. Though I know it cannot happen.

    Let's say the formulas looks something like this...

    Damage = Base * (1 - WeaponEnhancementBaseModifier) * (1 + WeaponPowerBoost) * (1 + WeaponEnhancementBoost) * (1 + SumAllStrengthBoost) * (1 + SumAllBonusBoost) * (1 - RangePenalty)

    ShieldDamage = Damage * ShieldPenetrationResistance * (1 - ShieldHardness)

    HullDamage = Damage * (1 - ShieldPenetrationResistance) * (1 - DamageResistance)

    There are too many "final" modifiers, imho.

    Base
    WeaponEnhancementBaseModifier
    WeaponPowerBoost
    WeaponEnhancementBoost
    SumAllStrengthBoost
    SumAllBonusBoost
    RangePenalty
    ShieldHardness/DamageResistance

    All the percentages/ratios/et al...wheeeee!

    Say you've got somebody doing 500.
    And you've got somebody doing 5000.
    (Arbitrary numbers for an example.)

    Lets add a 25% boost to each, yeah?

    500 * 1.25 = 625; +125
    5000 * 1.25 = 6250; +1250

    Let's add a pair of 25% boosts to each, yeah?

    500 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 781.25; +281.25
    5000 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 7812.5; +2812.5

    That 1:10 ratio is maintained, so the one will get 10x the benefit out of each boost.

    Course, it goes both ways. Say the player is doing something to reduce their damage or their facing some sort of damage reduction on the target, eh? How about hitting some hull with 35% resistance, k?

    781.25 * 0.65 = 507.8125; -273.4375
    7812.5 * 0.65 = 5078.125; -2734.375

    That 1:10 ratio is maintained, so the one will lose 10x the damage of the other. 10x the damage disappears into the magical ether.

    It's not difficult to take "an expected number" and just go all over the place with it because of how all the percentages/ratios/et al work with the game.

    It's not just damage though. How about taking a look at some hull, yeah?

    Say we've got two boats...

    38,000 Hull
    49,000 Hull

    ...and we add in the +30% from 9 in Starship Structural Integrity, yeah?

    38000 * 1.3 = 49400; +11400
    49000 * 1.3 = 63700; +14700

    Let's not stop there, let's look at some Effective Hull Health, yeah? Say with 40% Damage Resistance.

    (38000 * 1.3) / (1 - 0.4) = 82333; +44333
    (49000 * 1.3) / (1 - 0.4) = 106166; +57166

    The 1:1.289 ratio is going to be maintained.

    The same for shields, heals, drains, slows, etc, etc, etc...almost everything, not quite everything, but almost everything in the game is based on the ratios/percentages/et al.

    The longer a game remains active, the larger those potential gaps become and the more frequent they become.

    It's not a sustainable base. It wouldn't even work for a game doing the carrot 'n stick progression mixed in with somewhat frequent level cap increases because some of the modifiers are just that large. 50 Weapon Power = 100% damage. 125 Weapon Power = 250% damage. Regardless of anything else, that difference in 75 Weapon Power (which is far easier to average these days than it was in years past) is going to be a 1:2.5 ratio; somebody doing 1000 and somebody doing 2500...somebody doing 10000 and 25000...somebody doing 50000 and 125000.

    But even though it's not sustainable...there's nothing they can do to fix it. Honestly, they couldn't fix it. Remember the rage from addressing the sustainability issue with Reputation Traits? Yeah, apply that to almost everything in the game. It's not happening.

    So my guess, they'll keep doing what they're doing...going of metrics, looking at the average players. Below average? Tough. Above average? Tough.

    Somebody doing better than you and it has you feeling blue? Learn to play...get better.
    Content far too easy and bored to tears? Sabotage your build, make the content harder yourself.
    Enjoy PvP? Enjoy it somewhere else.

    Cause the way it is...is how it's going to be until PWE pulls the plug.
  • mosul33mosul33 Member Posts: 836 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Not necesarry a cap, but an implementation of diminuishing returns and/or prevent stacking to damage. Why shields have cap, and hull ress has diminuishing returns while for damage sky is the limit?? Tell me?? This has nothing to do with "been good at something" or "feeling bad cuz u suck". Its plain and pure imbalance started from the begining of the game.

    In other games, a certain type of buff from various classes doesnt stack, only highest apply.
    Like lets say you have 2 buffs: one for atack speed and one for dmg. And 2 classes can bestow them. Only the highest rank of them and only one of each type can be apply at one time. This shouldve been the case for STO too. That ofc if you want any sort of balance in the game.

    And putting a "brake" on DPS its actually a good thing. Look how much fun turned out to be The Breach, were the "brake" was done via mission design, but still, its one of the most complex and fun mission, imo ofc, but I would dare say for alot of ppl too, judging by the initial reaction upon release.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Looking at how startled the developers were when dps numbers went through the roof with DR and things like Surgical Strikes 3... might it not be a solution to code a hard maximum cap for dps into the game? In other words, implement into the game "no ship can do more than 20'000 damage per second" rule?

    That way, players would be encouraged to max out dps and then do other stuff with their ships' abilities, like crowd control, debuffingy, healing, or snares.

    Moreover, any new damage-enhancing ability would be a lot easier to balance for the devs.

    Or what would, in your opinion, be the drawbacks of such a hard cap?

    the problem with this idea is simple, it would make any further devices, ships and other things ultimately pointless to sell at a later date. what would be in it for cryptic? nothing. but from the otherside of the bench though, setting a limit would be good, that way content has a purpose in difficulty.
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  • historynerd1historynerd1 Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Oh boy! Another thread about DPS, I'm so darn excited.

    How about this, implement a minimum DPS for advance queues so I don't waste 10 minutes of my life on a failed mission because someone was expecting others to carry them.

    By the way, once you get past 50k it's hard to want to suck. Seriously. On bad runs - I'm talking rubber banding like you couldn't imagine and everything going wrong - a good player can still squeez by with your 20k cap. I mean, pets can do 10k!

    As for the healer, tanker, crowd controller, or whatever, it doesn't make a difference. When you're in an ISA that lasts for 2 minutes how are you going to have an impact on the mission. So okay, you're starting up a private queue and say: "you tf/if right cube, you do left, you do start, and I'll take gate. By the way, how am I contributing? I'm slapping on a gravity well on those pesky spheres and healing you guys because that's skill right there." Everything is already blown away by the time you find the button for your gravity well - I'm exaggerating; however, until the day there is a trait called God-mode there will be no such thing as a tanker. Until a gravity well can do enough DPS to destroy just one sphere there will be no such thing as a crowd controller. Until you can take out shields permanently there will be no such thing as a debuffer.

    So what would be the drawbacks of a DPS cap? You stunt the growth of players that worked hard to get to where they are and ask them to lower their standards. Look, I am sorry that the devs massively increased HP post-DR. I truly am. I know the grind is intense. I know good gear costs a lot. I know upgrading doesn't always go the way you want it to. But just because of all those things:

    you don't invite Michael Phelps to the kiddie pool
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