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Guardian too slow

jim625jim625 Member Posts: 907 Arc User
do love the design of the guardian class t6 ship but it's just way too slow for me even with the RCS equipped still too slow and it was a complete mess after playing through ISA so I've decided to go back to the fleet Avenger and use the upgrade token to make it a T5-U think I'll stick with this ship. Did enjoy the guardian for a while just way too slow
Post edited by jim625 on

Comments

  • lingeringsoul888lingeringsoul888 Member Posts: 509 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    how does it compare with the kobali cruiser as a tank? I was really impressed with the Kobali ship and it s ability to stay live. The kobali cuiser just wouldn't die no matter how careless I got with it. I would like the Guardian to be the same. Im halfway towards getting it.
  • lindalefflindaleff Member Posts: 3,734 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Basically, someone took a close look at an Ambassador and a Galaxy, and said, "Hey! Let's make a T6 version of that!" And the result is the Guardian.
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  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,794 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    There's always the trusty ole' EPTE1. And there's A2D1.
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  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    turn rate in this game is like DPS ... you can stack it to stupid levels and turn even a carrier into a baseline escort for performance.

    Rcs consoles aside, pilot spec tree, thrust weapons (not usually recommended), helmsman trait, captain skill tree, rep console, rep trait ... to name a few of the ways you can buff it. You can more than double the ship's base turn which gets most ships near 20.
  • thegcbaconthegcbacon Member Posts: 434 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    It's not the ship, it's you.
  • oneratsonerats Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Yeah.. it's not the ship.. it's you. Granted, the Guardian isn't a very good ship.. as someone said earlier, it's basically a T6 Ambassador or Galaxy.

    Turn rate depends a lot on the consoles you have equipped (many offer +turn, and these days so many have it as a side dish it's not even worth considering a real RCS). It also depends a LOT on your engine power and speed. Many players have absolutely atrocious system power overall, while good players that understand how the system works manage to max out all 4 subsystems. That makes a huge difference, as a "good" cruiser flies practically like an escort.
  • seriousxenoseriousxeno Member Posts: 473 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    onerats wrote: »
    Yeah.. it's not the ship.. it's you. Granted, the Guardian isn't a very good ship.. as someone said earlier, it's basically a T6 Ambassador or Galaxy.

    Turn rate depends a lot on the consoles you have equipped (many offer +turn, and these days so many have it as a side dish it's not even worth considering a real RCS). It also depends a LOT on your engine power and speed. Many players have absolutely atrocious system power overall, while good players that understand how the system works manage to max out all 4 subsystems. That makes a huge difference, as a "good" cruiser flies practically like an escort.

    "Not a very good ship, basically an Ambassador or Galaxy"?!

    Dude, did you look at the layouts? Other than consoles, those 2 ships WISH they would be as good as this one. The Guardian has one of the best cruiser BOFF layouts ever.

    That does make it a very good ship, especially once the fleet version arrives.
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  • karlbarbkarlbarb Member Posts: 166 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    The Guardian is actually a very good ship. Very versatile and allows you to try different combinations with ease. It also has an amazing universal console and an amazing starship trait.

    But it does turn slow if you compare it to the new command cruisers. But it's turn rate is on par with the majority of cruisers out there. As others have mentioned, there are ways of boosting up the turn rate to acceptable levels, but I still wouldn't try and make it fight like an escort.

    I'm hoping that the Fleet version, whenever it comes out, will have a turn rate increase to it.
  • oneratsonerats Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    That other than consoles bit is part of the problem, the rest is that versatile doesn't mean much in this game. The biggest difference between this ship and others is the Lt Comm science slot, which really doesn't help that much. Science powers just don't do very much without a particle gen heavy build backing them up (and usually a build that's quite specialized in science and science powers). Even then, ships like that just don't come close to ships built for dishing out damage in a more conventional way.

    The console is decent, but like all of them the cooldown is rather long and in the end it's rather up in the air whether it's actually worth using over something more conventional. That's better than most though - it's one of the few consoles you actually have to stop and think about rather than simply laughing at as you chuck it out an airlock.

    Other drawbacks to this ship include lower weapon power (it's got +5 all, as it's not a battlecruiser) and a lack of any dps traits (again, as it's not a battlecruiser). The mastery trait is decent, but is already very much outdated as there are far better options (Reciprocity, All Hands on Deck, Supremacy, and the Intel/Pilot spec mastery traits).
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    skollulfr wrote: »
    its a cruiser.
    cruisers are slow,
    because cruiser.
    fly a vo'quv for a while and your guardian will feel fast by comparison tough.

    though, iirc, there are spdx2 fleet engines

    load of TRIBBLE if ever there was a steaming pile. i run an excelsior that has the turning ability of a stock defiant and that is a cruiser and it still uses borg engines.
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  • lan451lan451 Member Posts: 3,386 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    onerats wrote: »
    That other than consoles bit is part of the problem, the rest is that versatile doesn't mean much in this game. The biggest difference between this ship and others is the Lt Comm science slot, which really doesn't help that much. Science powers just don't do very much without a particle gen heavy build backing them up (and usually a build that's quite specialized in science and science powers). Even then, ships like that just don't come close to ships built for dishing out damage in a more conventional way.

    The console is decent, but like all of them the cooldown is rather long and in the end it's rather up in the air whether it's actually worth using over something more conventional. That's better than most though - it's one of the few consoles you actually have to stop and think about rather than simply laughing at as you chuck it out an airlock.

    Other drawbacks to this ship include lower weapon power (it's got +5 all, as it's not a battlecruiser) and a lack of any dps traits (again, as it's not a battlecruiser). The mastery trait is decent, but is already very much outdated as there are far better options (Reciprocity, All Hands on Deck, Supremacy, and the Intel/Pilot spec mastery traits).

    What?

    The Guardian also has a Lt. Com. Tac slot so it's not like it gives up anything to get that Lt. Com. Sci slot. GW1 is still useful to gather up a pack of mobs before hitting them with a BFAW. You can also use TSS3 there so that slot isn't a waste.

    If you don't like the console, take it off and use something else. Problem solved.

    Power levels? We have so many ways of boosting our power levels right now, so that isn't even an issue. Plus the Guardian can slot OSS2.

    The trait is the same deal as the console. Don't like it? Slot something else, problem solved.

    The Guardian is still a very solid ship. Nothing you wrote even comes close to disputing that.
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  • jaguarskxjaguarskx Member Posts: 5,945 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    If the base turn rate of the Guardian (turn rate 6.5) is too low compared to the Avenger (turn rate 9), then you should be looking at one of the Command Battle Cruisers (turn rate 8) or the Eclipse Intel Cruiser (turn rate 10).
  • hyperionx09hyperionx09 Member Posts: 1,709 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Really, the problem is just the player.

    Low speed? Up your Engine power. Add an engine with more speed.

    Low turn rate? Add a Fleet or Mastercraft RCS (Conductive and whatever the Fleet one is called) with Turn.

    Up both to Mk XIII or XIV.

    The thing's a cruiser, with all the strengths and weaknesses of a regular cruiser. From how you decided to go back to an Avenger, it just means that your type is more towards battle cruisers; such as the Eclipse or the Command Cruisers.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 59,174 Community Moderator
    edited March 2015
    I actually like my Guardian. On my main I flew the Assault Cruiser Refit. I also run a combination of a couple RCS Neutroniums combined with the Strategic Maneuvers "aura". Also... as a base she's only a smidge slower on her turn rate than an ACR.
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  • oneratsonerats Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    lan451 wrote: »
    What?

    The Guardian also has a Lt. Com. Tac slot so it's not like it gives up anything to get that Lt. Com. Sci slot. GW1 is still useful to gather up a pack of mobs before hitting them with a BFAW. You can also use TSS3 there so that slot isn't a waste.

    If you don't like the console, take it off and use something else. Problem solved.

    Power levels? We have so many ways of boosting our power levels right now, so that isn't even an issue. Plus the Guardian can slot OSS2.

    The trait is the same deal as the console. Don't like it? Slot something else, problem solved.

    The Guardian is still a very solid ship. Nothing you wrote even comes close to disputing that.

    It gives up access to higher level Intel abilities compared to the Eclipse (which can run them in the best possible slot for them, the Comm Eng - allowing it to take Omega 1 OSS 3 and SS3) and loses a tactical console compared to the Presidio. Both of those also have their own debuff/buff mechanics and the latter has a hanger. Both have dps boosting traits. The guardian lacks all of that.. for a Lt Comm sci slot. A science slot that hardly helps them in the end, as no.. gathering enemies up doesn't do a thing to increase the damage of FAW on a 4/4 cruiser. A 5/3 DBB cruiser, sure.. but not a 4/4.

    Compared to the other options out there (and not even looking at lobi/lockbox) the Guardian is substandard because it gives up too much of what makes a good cruiser for more of what is quite possibly the least useful thing it could gain. On top of all of that, it's also a good deal less maneuverable. It's worse off in almost every category.
  • lan451lan451 Member Posts: 3,386 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    onerats wrote: »
    It gives up access to higher level Intel abilities compared to the Eclipse (which can run them in the best possible slot for them, the Comm Eng - allowing it to take Omega 1 OSS 3 and SS3) and loses a tactical console compared to the Presidio. Both of those also have their own debuff/buff mechanics and the latter has a hanger. Both have dps boosting traits. The guardian lacks all of that.. for a Lt Comm sci slot. A science slot that hardly helps them in the end, as no.. gathering enemies up doesn't do a thing to increase the damage of FAW on a 4/4 cruiser. A 5/3 DBB cruiser, sure.. but not a 4/4.

    Compared to the other options out there (and not even looking at lobi/lockbox) the Guardian is substandard because it gives up too much of what makes a good cruiser for more of what is quite possibly the least useful thing it could gain. On top of all of that, it's also a good deal less maneuverable. It's worse off in almost every category.

    No one said that there weren't better performing ships out there. No one. What we're talking about is when you tried to pass this off:
    onerats wrote: »
    Granted, the Guardian isn't a very good ship

    The problem is, it IS a good ship than can definitely hold it's own. The question is not whether it's "top tier" or "best" but whether it's a "good ship". It is, and you're wrong.
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  • oneratsonerats Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    To me, a good ship is one that has everything required to perform at the highest levels. Anything else is substandard and poorly designed. The guardian has been overshadowed since it released, and has only grown more so. It's an average ship at best, and thus isn't very good.

    Of course, not being very good is true of most ships. Cryptic is terrible at designing and balancing the things. Their design philosophy is fundamentally flawed. They limit the total number of consoles and/or boff powers a ship can have, and then trade them back and forth as if they are totally identical in the usefulness. Add in the differences between ship types, masteries, traits, and everything else.. and, well.. their designers are about as good as my R&D team. Occasionally I get a CrtDx3 worth using.. but far more often I get an [Acc][CrtD][Dmg] that while not totally useless, just isn't on the same level. The guardian is more like the latter than the former.
  • lan451lan451 Member Posts: 3,386 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    onerats wrote: »
    To me, a good ship is one that has everything required to perform at the highest levels. Anything else is substandard and poorly designed. The guardian has been overshadowed since it released, and has only grown more so. It's an average ship at best, and thus isn't very good.

    That's what I disagree with the most. To me, a ship that has everything required to perform at the highest levels is a "top tier" or "best" ship, far above a "good" ship. A good ship is a nice, solid ship that can hold it's own and exist comfortably in the mid tiers, which in my opinion the Guardian more than qualifies for. But since we're just going to get into arguing over opinions on what "good ship" means now, I guess we'll just have to disagree on that.

    Cryptic is terrible at designing and balancing the things.

    That, you will get no argument from me on.
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  • baconmaesterbaconmaester Member Posts: 110 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    load of TRIBBLE if ever there was a steaming pile. i run an excelsior that has the turning ability of a stock defiant and that is a cruiser and it still uses borg engines.

    You do know not every cruiser is made equal?

    Considering the diversity of the Guardian ships layout. The ability to function in different roles. Its kind of evident why it has a slow turn rate.
  • stararmystararmy Member Posts: 231 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    This guy is complaining about his 6.5 base turn rate Guardian and I'm over here rolling in my T5-U Tactical Odyssey with its base turn rate of 6.0 looking at him like that reaction face of Tommy Lee Jones looking up from his newspaper.
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  • oneratsonerats Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    You're absolutely right. By that definition the Guardian would be a good ship. Most ships in the game would be. I just feel that there's really no excuse for every ship not being able to perform at those high levels, they've released too many that are an unbalanced level of good and vastly more that barely rate average.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Lightspeed too slow?!?

    Sorry, couldn't resist. :P
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