do love the design of the guardian class t6 ship but it's just way too slow for me even with the RCS equipped still too slow and it was a complete mess after playing through ISA so I've decided to go back to the fleet Avenger and use the upgrade token to make it a T5-U think I'll stick with this ship. Did enjoy the guardian for a while just way too slow
how does it compare with the kobali cruiser as a tank? I was really impressed with the Kobali ship and it s ability to stay live. The kobali cuiser just wouldn't die no matter how careless I got with it. I would like the Guardian to be the same. Im halfway towards getting it.
turn rate in this game is like DPS ... you can stack it to stupid levels and turn even a carrier into a baseline escort for performance.
Rcs consoles aside, pilot spec tree, thrust weapons (not usually recommended), helmsman trait, captain skill tree, rep console, rep trait ... to name a few of the ways you can buff it. You can more than double the ship's base turn which gets most ships near 20.
Yeah.. it's not the ship.. it's you. Granted, the Guardian isn't a very good ship.. as someone said earlier, it's basically a T6 Ambassador or Galaxy.
Turn rate depends a lot on the consoles you have equipped (many offer +turn, and these days so many have it as a side dish it's not even worth considering a real RCS). It also depends a LOT on your engine power and speed. Many players have absolutely atrocious system power overall, while good players that understand how the system works manage to max out all 4 subsystems. That makes a huge difference, as a "good" cruiser flies practically like an escort.
Yeah.. it's not the ship.. it's you. Granted, the Guardian isn't a very good ship.. as someone said earlier, it's basically a T6 Ambassador or Galaxy.
Turn rate depends a lot on the consoles you have equipped (many offer +turn, and these days so many have it as a side dish it's not even worth considering a real RCS). It also depends a LOT on your engine power and speed. Many players have absolutely atrocious system power overall, while good players that understand how the system works manage to max out all 4 subsystems. That makes a huge difference, as a "good" cruiser flies practically like an escort.
"Not a very good ship, basically an Ambassador or Galaxy"?!
Dude, did you look at the layouts? Other than consoles, those 2 ships WISH they would be as good as this one. The Guardian has one of the best cruiser BOFF layouts ever.
That does make it a very good ship, especially once the fleet version arrives.
The Guardian is actually a very good ship. Very versatile and allows you to try different combinations with ease. It also has an amazing universal console and an amazing starship trait.
But it does turn slow if you compare it to the new command cruisers. But it's turn rate is on par with the majority of cruisers out there. As others have mentioned, there are ways of boosting up the turn rate to acceptable levels, but I still wouldn't try and make it fight like an escort.
I'm hoping that the Fleet version, whenever it comes out, will have a turn rate increase to it.
That other than consoles bit is part of the problem, the rest is that versatile doesn't mean much in this game. The biggest difference between this ship and others is the Lt Comm science slot, which really doesn't help that much. Science powers just don't do very much without a particle gen heavy build backing them up (and usually a build that's quite specialized in science and science powers). Even then, ships like that just don't come close to ships built for dishing out damage in a more conventional way.
The console is decent, but like all of them the cooldown is rather long and in the end it's rather up in the air whether it's actually worth using over something more conventional. That's better than most though - it's one of the few consoles you actually have to stop and think about rather than simply laughing at as you chuck it out an airlock.
Other drawbacks to this ship include lower weapon power (it's got +5 all, as it's not a battlecruiser) and a lack of any dps traits (again, as it's not a battlecruiser). The mastery trait is decent, but is already very much outdated as there are far better options (Reciprocity, All Hands on Deck, Supremacy, and the Intel/Pilot spec mastery traits).
its a cruiser.
cruisers are slow,
because cruiser.
fly a vo'quv for a while and your guardian will feel fast by comparison tough.
though, iirc, there are spdx2 fleet engines
load of TRIBBLE if ever there was a steaming pile. i run an excelsior that has the turning ability of a stock defiant and that is a cruiser and it still uses borg engines.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
That other than consoles bit is part of the problem, the rest is that versatile doesn't mean much in this game. The biggest difference between this ship and others is the Lt Comm science slot, which really doesn't help that much. Science powers just don't do very much without a particle gen heavy build backing them up (and usually a build that's quite specialized in science and science powers). Even then, ships like that just don't come close to ships built for dishing out damage in a more conventional way.
The console is decent, but like all of them the cooldown is rather long and in the end it's rather up in the air whether it's actually worth using over something more conventional. That's better than most though - it's one of the few consoles you actually have to stop and think about rather than simply laughing at as you chuck it out an airlock.
Other drawbacks to this ship include lower weapon power (it's got +5 all, as it's not a battlecruiser) and a lack of any dps traits (again, as it's not a battlecruiser). The mastery trait is decent, but is already very much outdated as there are far better options (Reciprocity, All Hands on Deck, Supremacy, and the Intel/Pilot spec mastery traits).
What?
The Guardian also has a Lt. Com. Tac slot so it's not like it gives up anything to get that Lt. Com. Sci slot. GW1 is still useful to gather up a pack of mobs before hitting them with a BFAW. You can also use TSS3 there so that slot isn't a waste.
If you don't like the console, take it off and use something else. Problem solved.
Power levels? We have so many ways of boosting our power levels right now, so that isn't even an issue. Plus the Guardian can slot OSS2.
The trait is the same deal as the console. Don't like it? Slot something else, problem solved.
The Guardian is still a very solid ship. Nothing you wrote even comes close to disputing that.
If the base turn rate of the Guardian (turn rate 6.5) is too low compared to the Avenger (turn rate 9), then you should be looking at one of the Command Battle Cruisers (turn rate 8) or the Eclipse Intel Cruiser (turn rate 10).
Low speed? Up your Engine power. Add an engine with more speed.
Low turn rate? Add a Fleet or Mastercraft RCS (Conductive and whatever the Fleet one is called) with Turn.
Up both to Mk XIII or XIV.
The thing's a cruiser, with all the strengths and weaknesses of a regular cruiser. From how you decided to go back to an Avenger, it just means that your type is more towards battle cruisers; such as the Eclipse or the Command Cruisers.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 59,174Community Moderator
edited March 2015
I actually like my Guardian. On my main I flew the Assault Cruiser Refit. I also run a combination of a couple RCS Neutroniums combined with the Strategic Maneuvers "aura". Also... as a base she's only a smidge slower on her turn rate than an ACR.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
The Guardian also has a Lt. Com. Tac slot so it's not like it gives up anything to get that Lt. Com. Sci slot. GW1 is still useful to gather up a pack of mobs before hitting them with a BFAW. You can also use TSS3 there so that slot isn't a waste.
If you don't like the console, take it off and use something else. Problem solved.
Power levels? We have so many ways of boosting our power levels right now, so that isn't even an issue. Plus the Guardian can slot OSS2.
The trait is the same deal as the console. Don't like it? Slot something else, problem solved.
The Guardian is still a very solid ship. Nothing you wrote even comes close to disputing that.
It gives up access to higher level Intel abilities compared to the Eclipse (which can run them in the best possible slot for them, the Comm Eng - allowing it to take Omega 1 OSS 3 and SS3) and loses a tactical console compared to the Presidio. Both of those also have their own debuff/buff mechanics and the latter has a hanger. Both have dps boosting traits. The guardian lacks all of that.. for a Lt Comm sci slot. A science slot that hardly helps them in the end, as no.. gathering enemies up doesn't do a thing to increase the damage of FAW on a 4/4 cruiser. A 5/3 DBB cruiser, sure.. but not a 4/4.
Compared to the other options out there (and not even looking at lobi/lockbox) the Guardian is substandard because it gives up too much of what makes a good cruiser for more of what is quite possibly the least useful thing it could gain. On top of all of that, it's also a good deal less maneuverable. It's worse off in almost every category.
It gives up access to higher level Intel abilities compared to the Eclipse (which can run them in the best possible slot for them, the Comm Eng - allowing it to take Omega 1 OSS 3 and SS3) and loses a tactical console compared to the Presidio. Both of those also have their own debuff/buff mechanics and the latter has a hanger. Both have dps boosting traits. The guardian lacks all of that.. for a Lt Comm sci slot. A science slot that hardly helps them in the end, as no.. gathering enemies up doesn't do a thing to increase the damage of FAW on a 4/4 cruiser. A 5/3 DBB cruiser, sure.. but not a 4/4.
Compared to the other options out there (and not even looking at lobi/lockbox) the Guardian is substandard because it gives up too much of what makes a good cruiser for more of what is quite possibly the least useful thing it could gain. On top of all of that, it's also a good deal less maneuverable. It's worse off in almost every category.
No one said that there weren't better performing ships out there. No one. What we're talking about is when you tried to pass this off:
The problem is, it IS a good ship than can definitely hold it's own. The question is not whether it's "top tier" or "best" but whether it's a "good ship". It is, and you're wrong.
To me, a good ship is one that has everything required to perform at the highest levels. Anything else is substandard and poorly designed. The guardian has been overshadowed since it released, and has only grown more so. It's an average ship at best, and thus isn't very good.
Of course, not being very good is true of most ships. Cryptic is terrible at designing and balancing the things. Their design philosophy is fundamentally flawed. They limit the total number of consoles and/or boff powers a ship can have, and then trade them back and forth as if they are totally identical in the usefulness. Add in the differences between ship types, masteries, traits, and everything else.. and, well.. their designers are about as good as my R&D team. Occasionally I get a CrtDx3 worth using.. but far more often I get an [Acc][CrtD][Dmg] that while not totally useless, just isn't on the same level. The guardian is more like the latter than the former.
To me, a good ship is one that has everything required to perform at the highest levels. Anything else is substandard and poorly designed. The guardian has been overshadowed since it released, and has only grown more so. It's an average ship at best, and thus isn't very good.
That's what I disagree with the most. To me, a ship that has everything required to perform at the highest levels is a "top tier" or "best" ship, far above a "good" ship. A good ship is a nice, solid ship that can hold it's own and exist comfortably in the mid tiers, which in my opinion the Guardian more than qualifies for. But since we're just going to get into arguing over opinions on what "good ship" means now, I guess we'll just have to disagree on that.
Cryptic is terrible at designing and balancing the things.
load of TRIBBLE if ever there was a steaming pile. i run an excelsior that has the turning ability of a stock defiant and that is a cruiser and it still uses borg engines.
You do know not every cruiser is made equal?
Considering the diversity of the Guardian ships layout. The ability to function in different roles. Its kind of evident why it has a slow turn rate.
This guy is complaining about his 6.5 base turn rate Guardian and I'm over here rolling in my T5-U Tactical Odyssey with its base turn rate of 6.0 looking at him like that reaction face of Tommy Lee Jones looking up from his newspaper.
Zinc: The universe of Star Trek Online is shaped and changed by the actions of the players...expect to see new planets and races discovered that were unknown the last time you logged in."
You're absolutely right. By that definition the Guardian would be a good ship. Most ships in the game would be. I just feel that there's really no excuse for every ship not being able to perform at those high levels, they've released too many that are an unbalanced level of good and vastly more that barely rate average.
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Rcs consoles aside, pilot spec tree, thrust weapons (not usually recommended), helmsman trait, captain skill tree, rep console, rep trait ... to name a few of the ways you can buff it. You can more than double the ship's base turn which gets most ships near 20.
Turn rate depends a lot on the consoles you have equipped (many offer +turn, and these days so many have it as a side dish it's not even worth considering a real RCS). It also depends a LOT on your engine power and speed. Many players have absolutely atrocious system power overall, while good players that understand how the system works manage to max out all 4 subsystems. That makes a huge difference, as a "good" cruiser flies practically like an escort.
"Not a very good ship, basically an Ambassador or Galaxy"?!
Dude, did you look at the layouts? Other than consoles, those 2 ships WISH they would be as good as this one. The Guardian has one of the best cruiser BOFF layouts ever.
That does make it a very good ship, especially once the fleet version arrives.
"Let them eat static!"
But it does turn slow if you compare it to the new command cruisers. But it's turn rate is on par with the majority of cruisers out there. As others have mentioned, there are ways of boosting up the turn rate to acceptable levels, but I still wouldn't try and make it fight like an escort.
I'm hoping that the Fleet version, whenever it comes out, will have a turn rate increase to it.
The console is decent, but like all of them the cooldown is rather long and in the end it's rather up in the air whether it's actually worth using over something more conventional. That's better than most though - it's one of the few consoles you actually have to stop and think about rather than simply laughing at as you chuck it out an airlock.
Other drawbacks to this ship include lower weapon power (it's got +5 all, as it's not a battlecruiser) and a lack of any dps traits (again, as it's not a battlecruiser). The mastery trait is decent, but is already very much outdated as there are far better options (Reciprocity, All Hands on Deck, Supremacy, and the Intel/Pilot spec mastery traits).
load of TRIBBLE if ever there was a steaming pile. i run an excelsior that has the turning ability of a stock defiant and that is a cruiser and it still uses borg engines.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
What?
The Guardian also has a Lt. Com. Tac slot so it's not like it gives up anything to get that Lt. Com. Sci slot. GW1 is still useful to gather up a pack of mobs before hitting them with a BFAW. You can also use TSS3 there so that slot isn't a waste.
If you don't like the console, take it off and use something else. Problem solved.
Power levels? We have so many ways of boosting our power levels right now, so that isn't even an issue. Plus the Guardian can slot OSS2.
The trait is the same deal as the console. Don't like it? Slot something else, problem solved.
The Guardian is still a very solid ship. Nothing you wrote even comes close to disputing that.
Mine Trap Supporter
Low speed? Up your Engine power. Add an engine with more speed.
Low turn rate? Add a Fleet or Mastercraft RCS (Conductive and whatever the Fleet one is called) with Turn.
Up both to Mk XIII or XIV.
The thing's a cruiser, with all the strengths and weaknesses of a regular cruiser. From how you decided to go back to an Avenger, it just means that your type is more towards battle cruisers; such as the Eclipse or the Command Cruisers.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
It gives up access to higher level Intel abilities compared to the Eclipse (which can run them in the best possible slot for them, the Comm Eng - allowing it to take Omega 1 OSS 3 and SS3) and loses a tactical console compared to the Presidio. Both of those also have their own debuff/buff mechanics and the latter has a hanger. Both have dps boosting traits. The guardian lacks all of that.. for a Lt Comm sci slot. A science slot that hardly helps them in the end, as no.. gathering enemies up doesn't do a thing to increase the damage of FAW on a 4/4 cruiser. A 5/3 DBB cruiser, sure.. but not a 4/4.
Compared to the other options out there (and not even looking at lobi/lockbox) the Guardian is substandard because it gives up too much of what makes a good cruiser for more of what is quite possibly the least useful thing it could gain. On top of all of that, it's also a good deal less maneuverable. It's worse off in almost every category.
No one said that there weren't better performing ships out there. No one. What we're talking about is when you tried to pass this off:
The problem is, it IS a good ship than can definitely hold it's own. The question is not whether it's "top tier" or "best" but whether it's a "good ship". It is, and you're wrong.
Mine Trap Supporter
Of course, not being very good is true of most ships. Cryptic is terrible at designing and balancing the things. Their design philosophy is fundamentally flawed. They limit the total number of consoles and/or boff powers a ship can have, and then trade them back and forth as if they are totally identical in the usefulness. Add in the differences between ship types, masteries, traits, and everything else.. and, well.. their designers are about as good as my R&D team. Occasionally I get a CrtDx3 worth using.. but far more often I get an [Acc][CrtD][Dmg] that while not totally useless, just isn't on the same level. The guardian is more like the latter than the former.
That's what I disagree with the most. To me, a ship that has everything required to perform at the highest levels is a "top tier" or "best" ship, far above a "good" ship. A good ship is a nice, solid ship that can hold it's own and exist comfortably in the mid tiers, which in my opinion the Guardian more than qualifies for. But since we're just going to get into arguing over opinions on what "good ship" means now, I guess we'll just have to disagree on that.
That, you will get no argument from me on.
Mine Trap Supporter
You do know not every cruiser is made equal?
Considering the diversity of the Guardian ships layout. The ability to function in different roles. Its kind of evident why it has a slow turn rate.
Sorry, couldn't resist. :P