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Implications of the new Antiproton Projectile (Crystaline Event)

angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,016 Arc User
You can read it in the GNN, the event will award a projectile weapon that deals energy damage and is boosted by energy damage consoles rather than projectile consoles.

Aside from the fact that Antiproton - ONCE AGAIN - gets the cake I'm wondering what this weapon type means for the overall game. We now have a torpedo that doesn't rely on torpedo boosting consoles and probably deals more damage to shields. While I do like the idea in theory (shield damaging torpedoes), I'm wondering if that means that "classic" torpedoes are further moved into obscurity since now a classic all energy AP built with the two omni arrays and yadda yadda can slot a torpedo without any trade-offs.

I am no expert in game mechanics but I am curious as to what you think and maybe someone can either reifnorce my "worries" (lol) or deconstruct them :)
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Comments

  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    If it ignores the usual kinetic resistance from shields, it could be a big deal. Unless perhaps its DPS is lower than that of equivalent energy weapons, and the torpedo buffs don't buff it sufficiently to add some notable spike.

    It seems at least potentially very problematic.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • baelogventurebaelogventure Member Posts: 1,002 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    It's going to deal Antiproton (IE:Energy) damage, so it's going to do 100% damage to shields, and not be affected by the inherent kinetic resistance that shields give.

    And since it deals Energy damage, it's going to be boosted by Emergency Power to Weapons, since EPtW gives +Energy damage.
  • seriousdaveseriousdave Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    It really seems they do their best to reduce common torps to to trash (even more) and make AP the best of the best (which it already is) go to type for energy weapons.

    Purely energy based torped which works with torp skills? :eek:

    Did someone order a an overpoverd shiny with a twenty-something grindwall as appertizer? No one? Too bad the game's getting it anyway.


    To boldly kill balance where it was already on life support before!
  • baelogventurebaelogventure Member Posts: 1,002 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Virusdancer did some maths in another thread...I'mma find it...
    Thing is, they haven't told us what the base is. We've got no idea what skills/gear were equipped on the ship that the tooltip picture was taken.

    3584.2 with a Rare Mk XIII torpedo...but what else is going on there, yeah?

    Say there were no skills/AP boosts involved for the image.

    Rare would be 0.05 and the Mk XIII would provide 1.2 and 0.4 for 1.6, giving us a 1.65 Strength boost in play. That would be a 2172.2 base.

    But what are the odds that there were 9 Starship Weapon Training and Starship Projectile Weapons in play there (if SPW boosts it, they still haven't updated the tooltip). That would mean another 0.495 for each, giving us 0.99 to add to that 1.65 - giving us a 2.64 Strength boost. That would be a 1357.7 or so base.

    Which gets into the realm of figuring that there was some rounding going on there...and...well, 1352 is the base for Photons. So it's likely that a Photon was the "template" torp for this, and that 1352 is the actual base for it, yeah?

    With that in mind, we can go through and work out the potential numbers for it from there...mostly.

    Crystalline Energy Torpedo Launcher Mk XIV [Ac/Dm][CrtD][CrtH][???][???]

    Depends on the mods at VR/UR...and also whether it keeps the AP's innate CrtD which would be another [CrtD], yeah?

    Base: 1352

    +9 Starship Weapon Training: + (0.495 * 1352) = + 669.24 = 2021.24
    +9 Starship Projectile Weapons: + (0.495 * 1352) = + 669.24 = 2690.48
    +Uncommon->Ultra Rare: + ((0.025 * 4) * 1352) = + 135.2 = 2825.68
    +Epic: + (0.05 * 1352) = + 67.6 = 2893.28
    +Mk 0->XII: + ((0.1 * 12) * 1352) = + 1622.4 = 4515.68
    +Mk XIII: + (0.4 * 1352) = + 540.8 = 5056.48
    +Mk XIV: + (0.7 * 1352) = + 946.4 = 6020.88
    5x G14 AP Locators: + ((0.375 * 5) * 1352) = + 2535 = 8555.88

    Likely to show as 8555.9 in the tooltip sort of thing. Will skip the potential Bonus boosts for a moment to look at the standard HY3/TS3 boosts and what that would mean...

    HY3 (296.8%): 8555.88 * 2.968 = 25393.85184
    TS3 (230%): 8555.88 * 2.3 = 19678.524 (each target)

    Course, that would need to be multiplied by any Bonus boosts (including if it Crits)...as well as going back to work in [AMP] if it was in play. Would have to reduce it if there were only 3 or 4 of the AP Locators, etc in play. Then again, if it was a SS vape build...might actually be Exploiters in play instead.

    There's your implications.
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  • fovrelfovrel Member Posts: 1,448 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Considering game design/mechanics it is ugly. It is a torpedo that deals energy damage, AP, yet it is effective against hulls, not effective against shields. Normal energy damage is effective against both, hull and shields.

    It is boosted by energy weapons consoles, but also by projectile weapons training, which is good for kinetic damage. So what is it? It might be interesting for AP users, but min/max 'rs may leave it alone. Not spec'ed for kinetic damage, firing arc, things like that.

    Blizzard, eh Cryptic, what is in your head?
  • chalpenchalpen Member Posts: 2,207 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Let's say we all get this, how is the game unbalanced? Whom are you fighting?
    Should I start posting again after all this time?
  • jbmonroejbmonroe Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Did someone order a an overpoverd shiny with a twenty-something grindwall as appertizer? No one? Too bad the game's getting it anyway.


    To boldly kill balance where it was already on life support before!
    skollulfr wrote: »
    throw game balance under the bus to the point even team pvE content, let alone pvp content gets trashed, to compensate, throw balance under a train.

    Max of one per character.

    Read that again: max of one per character.

    One torpedo and balance is gone forever? Yeah...no.

    It looks to me like this actually could bring a tiny bit of balance back because torpedoes (of any sort) have needed some love recently. Neutronics were just a small step in that direction.
    boldly-watched.png
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  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    It appears to be equivalent to a beam overload on an AP beam, but in the form of a torpedo.

    Not sure quite how OP that could be if fully buffed and launched as a TS3 as that's effectively an AOE beam overload that has 100% chance to hit the targets.

    My biggest problem is that yet again it's antiproton that gets more goodies, forcing people down the same road again. Seriously...every enemy that comes out now seems to use AP beams and every console or set seems to buff it or resist in someway.
    How about some more variety in the game!
    SulMatuul.png
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    It's nothing new, though...they go through cycles. They introduce something for something, later they introduce something else for something else, and later they introduce something else again for something else again.

    There are no Refracting Phasers.
    There are no Bio-Molecular Polaron.
    There are no Fluidic Disruptors.
    There are no Phased Antiprotons.
    There are no Polarized Plasma.
    There are no Corrosive Tetryon.
    There are no Gravimetric Chronitons.
    There are no Neutronic Transphasics.
    There are no Hyper Tricobalts.
    There are no Rapid Reload Quantums.
    There are no Thoron Infused Photons.
    There are no Disrupting Plasmas.

    The 2pc Romulan Singularity Harness doesn't boost Antiproton damage.
    The 2pc Silent Enemy doesn't boost Phaser damage.
    The 2pc Fluidic Assault doesn't boost Polaron damage.
    The 2pc Jem'Hadar doesn't boost Disruptor damage.

    Etc, etc, etc...

    ...not everything is going to be for everybody.

    ...and folks come off pretty damn whiny complaining about that.

    It's as bad as "X sucks!" Cause, even if it's awesome for somebody else...they don't fly something where it's an improvement, so it sucks and was a waste of developer resources.
  • sunfranckssunfrancks Member Posts: 3,925 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    My Antiproton Cruiser/Escort is looking forward to this Torpedo.

    We all know it will be nerfed into oblivion around 2 weeks after the event, anyways.....
    Fed: Eng Lib Borg (Five) Tac Andorian (Shen) Sci Alien/Klingon (Maelrock) KDF:Tac Romulan KDF (Sasha) Tac Klingon (K'dopis)
    Founder, member and former leader to Pride Of The Federation Fleet.
    What I feel after I hear about every decision made since Andre "Mobile Games Generalisimo" Emerson arrived...
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  • chaosgod777chaosgod777 Member Posts: 237 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    It appears to be equivalent to a beam overload on an AP beam, but in the form of a torpedo.

    Not sure quite how OP that could be if fully buffed and launched as a TS3 as that's effectively an AOE beam overload that has 100% chance to hit the targets.

    My biggest problem is that yet again it's antiproton that gets more goodies, forcing people down the same road again. Seriously...every enemy that comes out now seems to use AP beams and every console or set seems to buff it or resist in someway.
    How about some more variety in the game!

    So you forget the delta expansion which most enemies came out firing polaron and phaser. Thus far the only enimies I can think of that use AP are voth and Undine, and those arn't even standard ap. Resistant to AP? sure, wa know what helps with that...a neutronium console. I cant for the life of me remember the name of the Polaron/AP resist console.
    As for torpedo's I don't see where their not viable in the first place. Me and several of my fleetmates use torps in our builds and sustain very high dps as well as some large hit numbers when we fire those torps. They are not dps they are bonus damage, you have to fire them when its approprite to do so, and the new command officer tree makes that both easier and harder hitting then before. This torpedo at first glance offers a torp alternitive straight ap beam builds, but it is conditional to firing and skills of course. 95% of skill builds I see for these dont include any points to torps.
    To my understanding this will gain bonus from both energy weapons and torp skills. Can you say win for someone who has both and uses torps and an ap build??

    Oh ballence went out the window a long time ago in PvP, when people were able to make up Vape builds. So dont try to say a single energy torpedo throws the game outta whack, especially when you have the heavy hitters with grav-torps and bio-torps and neutronic torps.
  • reynoldsxdreynoldsxd Member Posts: 977 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    The core idiocy in this is that the term "kinetic damage" for torpedoes is just so wrong, i cringe every time i see it.



    The torpedos in star trek do not deal kinetic damage.. they CARRY WARHEADS!

    USUALLY Am/M warheads. Those produce massive ENERGY RELEASES THAT TEAR **** UP!


    Its high time cryptic reworks its torpedo system from the ground up because it is TRIBBLE. It makes no canonical sense and the gamepaly reason they gave, a hundred years ago, NEVER actually made sense.


    They said they wanted to have energy weapons to batter down shields and torpedoes top wreck hulls.

    They never even properly implemented that, since heavy cannons always were more than capable to wreck hulls.

    Combined with the massive fckup that is shields having high inhate resist versus torpedoes and the fact that a slight sliver of shield bar basically devalues the best High yield volley it conspired to make torpedoes a questionable tool from day one.


    And there was no point to it!


    It is high time all torpedoes get a overhaul in the basic mechanic of how they work.


    Honestly, i think its time to break down the artificial barrier between torpedoes and energy weapons.
    Remove the artificial damage resistance and diversify the damages dealt by torpedoes.

    An Am/M warhead will produce radiation, heat, rest antimatter will react with hull materials, flash vaporized materails will deal more damage to the surrounding hull, shrapnel from those vaporizations will deal a bit of kinetic damage...



    Players should have the option to employ heavy torpedo builds if they so chose and not be punished by artificial limiters.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2015
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Yes and why do they go in cycles hmm? Think about it and then tell me it's nothing to do with squeezing more cash out of us.

    If they did everything at once, there would be nothing to do. By going through cycles and dropping different things out for different folks, it shows that even if something wasn't dropped out for somebody with this particular go around that in time there likely will be.

    Not everything that's dropped out is better for everybody. Just because Cryptic drops something out doesn't mean one has to jump all over it.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Yes and why do they go in cycles hmm? Think about it and then tell me it's nothing to do with squeezing more cash out of us.

    Yes, Crpytic are evil TRIBBLE like that. They constantly release stuff for the game so you keep spending money on it.

    If only they would stop that, then you could finally stop playing the game and stop paying for it.


    Can we please get back to the real topic here, instead of generic "they're after our money" concerns?
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Might as well add this to this thread as well, given it's being overlooked in the main thread and other threads as well...
    Hey guys!

    The tooltip shown in today's Dev Blog is approximately the same item that will be rewarded, but the fine details are still undergoing one last tuning pass. It was supposed to be done before the Blog was published, but unfortunately we failed to hit that deadline. We'll try and get an updated/final tooltip into the blog as soon as it's available (should be today).
    mrspidey2 wrote: »
    So this torp is essentially a giant single antiproton cannon with narrow arc that can only fire every 8 seconds or so?

    That's a really good way to look at it. With a few additional unique variations:

    - Does not benefit from Weapon Power
    - Does not suffer from Range drop-off
    - Benefits from Torpedo Combo Abilities (Torpedo Spread, High Yield, etc)
    - Enhanced by any items/bonuses that are "+Antiproton Damage" but not "+Beam/Cannon Damage"
    - NOT Enhanced by +Torpedo Damage items/bonuses
    - Deals Antiproton Damage, so is not subject to the same Strengths/Resists as a standard Kinetic Torpedo (this includes the Rademaker console that was asked about, though a standard Feedback Pulse WILL reflect this Torpedo)

    Also, aside from all of that, it's really freakin' pretty. Seriously - you guys should see this thing in action, it's gorgeous.
  • zathri83zathri83 Member Posts: 514 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    lolpvp

    /10char
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  • riccardo171riccardo171 Member Posts: 1,802 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    That approach is like being mugged and then tracking down the mugger to ask if he'd like anything else?

    Nobody decries them for making money, we all want the game and therefore the company to be successful, but the way they do it, the insidious and therefore hard to spot money grabs is what pisses me off. For years we've been saying, stock up the Zen store, people will buy what they want to when they want to, but they mask all costs behind rewards, they nerf all gains behind proclamations of improvement, I find it hard to understand why so many people apologise for it.

    Personally I'm gutted what's happened to this game over the last year especially, it used to be my primary leisure activity when the kids had gone to bed, I used to spend way way too much on it but I didn't care because I loved it. But even whales like me reached their limits, it lost it's appeal and I'm desperately hoping it can be recovered, there are signs on the horizon that things are changing but so far nothing tangible, on holodeck at least. What they have done though is make people like me very wary and suspicious of their motives, seeing cash grabs on an almost daily basis. To progress in this game you have to do one of two things, either live in it full time or spend obscene amounts of RL cash, neither of which I, and I suspect many others, are prepared to do any longer.

    So whether or not this is on topic is debatable, I would say it is, many are complaining that it's not fair it's just AP, I am stating one possible reason why that is so, just because that reason involves the exchange of money is no reason to censor it from the discussion.

    It's turning 1984.
  • thatcursedwolfthatcursedwolf Member Posts: 1,617 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Sooo, when are plasma torpedoes going to be boosted by the energy consoles?

    AP is doing it. Plasma should be able to as well.

    It's just that now, if you wanted your torpedoes to be boosted by all your tac consoles you ran a torpedo boat.

    Now AP can do it and have full powered beams for BO or cannons for CRF?
    This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    For years we've been saying, stock up the Zen store, people will buy what they want to when they want to, but they mask all costs behind rewards, they nerf all gains behind proclamations of improvement, I find it hard to understand why so many people apologise for it.

    So it should only be a Pay-2-Play/Pay-2-Win game without any Play-2-Play/Play-2-Win option?

    Cause if everything was just Zen based, then everything would be money based. Without there being some need for Dilithium, then those Zen/Dilithium transactions could not take place.

    So the folks that hang around mainly doing Dil->Zen that might buy some Zen from time to time, wouldn't likely be around, eh? Everything that could be gotten via Dil from farming would in turn require Zen from spending, eh?

    Game would end up very expensive pretty fast...yeah? With everything else wrong there...and yeah...

    Maybe it's not that folks are apologizing for what Cryptic's doing there...they're thanking them - cause what most folks tend to suggest would have killed the game off long ago.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I haven't spent an actual dime on the game since Feb 2013. I couldn't even guess off-hand how much "Zen-product" I've acquired since then...I did it once, but it would be woefully out of date - woefully out of date even since the launch of DR. Hell, I just picked up the 3pack of Fed Command ships last week. Didn't cost me a penny. Couple of weeks before that, I bought a crapload of keys via Zen to get 200 Lobi to get the Ferengi Rapid Fire Missile. Didn't cost me a penny. Not long ago I crafted a bunch of [Acc]x2[Over] Polarons that I took from Mk II to Mk XIV for some testing, thinking I might actually like them - ate up some Dil...but I didn't, and I deleted them. Didn't cost me a penny. Hell, I wanted some Fleet Credits earlier...I dumped like 50k Dil in to get it since it was open. Hell, sometimes I even burn Fleet Credits for Provisions to finish off projects I see sitting there.

    I'm not impatient. I earn rewards as I play. I use that to get things I want eventually.

    I don't apologize for Cryptic doing any sort of money grab, cause they're not grabbing any of my money. And as long as there are a bunch of impatient folks that need to have everything now and think they need to buy everything that Cryptic drops out...well, those folks are the folks that let me play the way I do. If everybody played like I do, then nobody could play like I do. So I'm thankful for those folks...but their personal issues are basically their personal issues. I feel bad hoping they never address those personal issues, it's very selfish of me...but hey, it lets me play this game the way I do. So even though I think they need to get their heads checked, I hope they never do...
  • nickcastletonnickcastleton Member Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    question is its cool down longer than most torpedos?

    Either way i wont get it, i dont use AP on my ships (except one) and that's a armatidge and i will stick with photon.
    0bzJyzP.gif





    "It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
  • chalpenchalpen Member Posts: 2,207 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    It's unbalanced if you PvP because it means that to be competitive you will have to change your entire build if not already AP.

    But as nobody PvPs any more (do they?) then who cares, just let's us blow NPCs up faster with fancy graphics.

    If you do PvP (why would you bother any more) then you could always agree to not use it like we don't use neutronic in our 1v1s, well we didn't last time I had a 1v1 which was about 3 months ago.

    So this is irrelevant. No game balance exists becUse their is no reason for it. Gotcha.
    I was wondering what game balance means.

    Will I blow up ships in argali faster than my fleetmates in another instance ?
    Should I start posting again after all this time?
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