I was referring to the seemingly general consensus that members of the DPS leagues are elitest. I might be exaggerating, but, it seems like every week there's a new thread about how people that do higher than average DPS are ruining the game.
Those threads, with no basis in fact, are what drive me to make this post. Show the community what the channels are about and have to offer to those who want it. Not just the threads bashing those who prefer DPS League style gameplay and blaming them for what they believe to be wrong with the game in its current state.
In that sense, I agree with what others have said regarding the OPs posting, it's a loaded title. Furthermore, individuals might be dissuaded from pushing for higher DPS if the continue to here such talk, ergo, the suspicion that non-DPS league members are looked down upon with the league itself.
As stated right above by millimidget, "if the conventional wisdom of the anti-DPSers is that PUGs are, at best, unpredictable, how is that in disagreement with the thread title?"
No one is looked down upon by the DPS community as a whole. We respect and understand there are lots of different ways to play and have fun. This is our way, and we share it with anyone who wants it. We want to play a certain way and seek out others who share in that preferred method, just like other STO communities do.
I might be exaggerating, but, it seems like every week there's a new thread about how people that do higher than average DPS are ruining the game.
You're not wrong; there's a widely held opinion on these forums that if you've streamlined your build in any way, or have any Mk XII VR or better pieces equipped, then you're doing it wrong.
In that sense, I agree with what others have said - it's a loaded title.
How so? You made a leap here without explaining it. Unless your point is that a thread title with "DPS channel matches' will draw the attention of many DPS critics. My only issue then is that they'd show up even if the thread title was different.
If you can't see why even your TITLE is being an elitist jerk, you really are like Geko. Your clueless and just keep digging a bigger hole everytime you say anything...once again please stop.
Pop a breath mint, close your eyes, take a deep breath and count to ten.
While that may not be an effective method of policing, it should help you gain some perspective.
DPS channel right now has an image problem, they need people who can grasp why title such as your's is a BAD IDEA.
You could try having a little bit of the empathy you're demanding everyone else extend towards you. It would be a great place to start.
That imaging problem is largely a myth developed and maintained by the DPS critics. Without them acknowledging to themselves that maybe it's their own failing at work, there's little that can be done to change their minds.
much less some of your less then accepting and rather hostile attitude to those who may not share your views(hell even to those who do). All of that is NOT HELPING...so once again please stop.
What attitude? Again, the most hostile attitudes in this thread are from the DPS critics. But, you don't even consider that, do you?
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
By the way, don't consider me a representative of the DPS League, or any of the channels. You've probably spent more time in them than I have.
I just can't stand your self-righteous attitude, or the idea that anyone would be expected to tailor everything around your current (and unknown) mental state for fear of offending you. I've seen firsthand just how abusive that can be, and how horribly it can wreck the life of the person always expected to compromise their own opinions, emotions and beliefs.
(and it is...we don't HAVE to explain WHY...it's offensive if we view it as such and if a lot of people say they feel that way, that is the way they feel and maybe that is clue that you may want to change the tone and wording).
All offense intended; that's a terrible explanation.
Here's a special snowflake award; can we now move past your own sense of pride?
Maybe I should just spam emjois; that might distract the hypersensitive.
Here is a clue...when you make me sound like the reasonable one, you probably failed miserably at not being an TRIBBLE and unless that was your goal, you may want to change your tone and wording...just saying.
I really couldn't care. You seem to be higher maintenance than I'd want in a e-gaming friend.
Keep on carrying that pride.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Here's an idea; why don't you make your own thread matching in spirit what the OP wrote here. Title it how you want, preface how you want, structure the points how you want. That would really help get your point across about how superior you feel you could have conveyed it.
I'd love to see how it comes out. Let me now beg forgiveness for the offense you no doubt take at my request. :P:confused::D
PS: I feel dirty just clicking on those things. They're like forum herpes.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
If you can't see why even your TITLE is being an elitist jerk, you really are like Geko. Your clueless and just keep digging a bigger hole everytime you say anything...once again please stop.
I am not asking on behalf of the channel or anyone really. I am asking you to stop because you are making thing worse for the people who you seem to want to champion. Your not helping...seriously you are not. DPS channel right now has an image problem, they need people who can grasp why title such as your's is a BAD IDEA. You however can't even see that your title ALONE is inflammitory...much less some of your less then accepting and rather hostile attitude to those who may not share your views(hell even to those who do). All of that is NOT HELPING...so once again please stop.
To take care of the title debate, it isn't meant as a jab at those players who prefer to pug, but merely a comparison of how a match from the dps channels well perform better to meet the missions goals than a pug. This has even been admitted to by those who don't like the channels and have sworn to never use them. Which I will state one again, is perfectly okay. Everyone should be allowed to play how they want, that being said like-minded individuals will come together to share in similar forms of enjoyment. I.E. the DPS channels (for some).
So you continue to speak of inflammatory titles and hostile attitudes...while insulting me and comparing me to a dev that everyone knows has negative connotations. Aside from that it's safe to say we disagree on how this DPS channel image issue should be dealt with, and now should probably be left at that.
To take care of the title debate, it isn't meant as a jab at those players who prefer to pug, but merely a comparison of how a match from the dps channels well perform better to meet the missions goals than a pug.
Similar, perhaps, to how private RP is better than public RP?
Similar, perhaps, to how private RP is better than public RP?
I'll be honest, the only thing I know about STO RP is that they hate disco balls. As do I, but that's besides the point. I'm guessing what you mean is they can get their RP enjoyment better in private away from those who would troll them (insert disco ball here) and what have you.
Just for clarification I am NOT saying all those who pug are trolls.
I'll be honest, the only thing I know about STO RP is that they hate disco balls. As do I, but that's besides the point. I'm guessing what you mean is they can get their RP enjoyment better in private away from those who would troll them (insert disco ball here) and what have you.
More or less.
There are added requirements to RP. It's more difficult to pick up than min-maxing, let alone master. I don't RP, but even I'm aware that 90% of RP-wannabes start off with things like "I'm (insert lead character)'s (insert relative, degree of ancestry, etc)," and that's just terrible RP. Disco balls aside, it takes quite a bit of talent to RP well, and/or you need to maintain low expectations.
Not that they'd admit that the one requirement of DPS League - bring enough DPS, is like 1/10th the requirements of any reasonable RP organization, and comes with 10x the leeway.
Just for clarification I am NOT saying all those who pug are trolls.
If only there was room to fit that into the title.
Incidentally, you should find a solid recruiter and have them promote the league in public zone chat. Provide a link to whatever the most centralized resource or collection of resources can be found, particularly one which directly promotes the STO Academy builder, 1-2 guides on very basic equipment loadouts, and video guides on the most popular queues. Include a plug for the public chat channel, and conclude it with some empty feelgood line, preferably slightly RPish in nature.
Constant self-promotion will do more than any amount of forum posting.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
The very fact players are forming exclusive channels for the highest dps players is honestly disgusting.
Just run the queues with your friends or fleet and have fun, who the hell cares if you do 50k dps or 5k (and by the way a well geared cruiser will be more in the 5k range almost inevitably).
Don't worry about min maxing, worry about FUN.
When players stop playing the game for fun, and DPS racing becomes the norm, the community enters a death spiral.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
If you can't see why even your TITLE is being an elitist jerk, you really are like Geko. Your clueless and just keep digging a bigger hole everytime you say anything...once again please stop.
I am not asking on behalf of the channel or anyone really. I am asking you to stop because you are making thing worse for the people who you seem to want to champion. Your not helping...seriously you are not. DPS channel right now has an image problem, they need people who can grasp why title such as your's is a BAD IDEA. You however can't even see that your title ALONE is inflammitory...much less some of your less then accepting and rather hostile attitude to those who may not share your views(hell even to those who do). All of that is NOT HELPING...so once again please stop.
You are wasting your breath. They cant see pass they own egos and parsers and they are extremly short sighted ppl who cant even take responsability for their own actions. And no matter how much PR paint they apply, the DPS comunity's malicious actions speak otherwise. Its one of the most wretched lot one could ever meet in a game. They say one thing, that they dont want to impose their gameplay style on others, yet everything they do is exactly the opposite. They dont care about the consequences of their actions like parsing ppl without their acknowledgemnt and permision and storing that data and then posting it on 3rd party sites, wich apparently now is the inofficial STO leaderboard:rolleyes: (wich is in fact just a DPS comunity boad, nothing more). Consequneces like increased hacking attempts and in-game spam by goldsellers.
And how much arrogance to consider yourself Dev-like and above the TOS rules (Term of Service Pharagraph 15. User conduct, subparagraph 15.2.g. state that user account data is forbitten to be stored, and for alot of ppl, the @handle may be their acc ID aswell) and going in the PUBLIC queues and PUBLIC channels and "gather data", again without ppl acknowledgement and permision. They get pissed when ppl put them on ignore thinking folks cant be bothered, yet they cant be bothered to respect TOS rules or at least to let ppl know if they are parsed or to ask any sort of permision. God forbid to be bother to keep their parsing IN the DPS channels.
The very fact players are forming exclusive channels for the highest dps players is honestly disgusting.
Just run the queues with your friends or fleet and have fun, who the hell cares if you do 50k dps or 5k (and by the way a well geared cruiser will be more in the 5k range almost inevitably).
Don't worry about min maxing, worry about FUN.
When players stop playing the game for fun, and DPS racing becomes the norm, the community enters a death spiral.
My first and last experience with a DPS channel happened like this:
I found myself in I believe it was the old 20K DPS channel without ever asking to join, but saw a request for a team for an Infected space, so I thought why not...
Even though the match ran well enough, I got shouted at for not reading chat and following commands afterward and was put on ignore before I could respond.
Apparently my sin was to not notice a single abbreviated 3 letter instruction that I neither was familiar with nor really conciously noticed when it was posted.
I had to ask someone else from the team what my "mistake" was.
I left the channel after that and never looked back.
Could be an unusually bad first impression, but it's the one that counts.
Maybe if you take someone new on the team, don't assume he knows everything in advance without actual communication.
What I took away from the whole experience was that if anyone in any way does not absolutely the maximum DPS possible even though it is not necessary for a successful run he is not welcome.
nobody wants to join a PUG because the chance of success is low.
I do .
Because to me , a chance at failure = a chance at success , and to be honest , in the last year or two prior to DR , that was pretty much all the actual thrill that this game provided to me (aside from PVP, but I left that when I understood what was coming a long while back) .
I also understand that this kind of thrill is not for everyone , and that's ok .
So the public queues become empty - cleared out due to unqualified individuals causing failures.
There is no such thing as "unqualified individuals" .
That's just gamer l33t speak .
Let me put it in another therm :
Most players (STO included) have had that special thrill when they conquerd a difficult bit of content (be that alone or in a group) .
That thrill is special , and unique .
I enjoy helping the very same "unqualified individuals" as you call them to get that thrill . Who knows , for some of them it may be their very first time (as STO is populated with quite a few non-gamer "Trekkies") .
Do the DPS channels provide such a service (aside from perhaps DPS Public) ?
Frankly , I don't think so ... , and I think that because as a closed society , all you care is about yourselves .
It's the same reason the PESTF channel slowly emptied of good players. It used to be full of people who knew what they were doing, and I'd never seen a run fail. Then bad players in denial of their incompetence joined, firmly believe that everybody else sucked and they just needed a better team. They dragged down the quality of the average PESTF group - and in turn the higher end players went and created a channel where admittance was based on performance, not simply knowing how to join a channel.
That is a partial history at best .
See , alongside PSTF and ESTF , there have been several STF channels that have operated for a long time (some pre-F2P) .
The Hive , and STFRaiders are just two that I can recall , but there were others .
Point being that :
a) Fleets aside , many players relied on channels outside of PSTF and ESTF (and the DPS channels are just the latest variation on that theme) .
b) The DPS channels didn't invent the idea of competent players who wanted to play with other competent players .
The major difference between the two types of channel's is in the ways of admittance , and in the ways of behavior after admittance .
In the DPS channels , the admittance is based on "jump ye high" , and after admittance , you get constantly (and I mean CONSTANTLY) judged in public based on numbers (that are at times less then accurate) .
You'll forgive me , but I find both to be highly revolting behavior (and you can save me your "you're not good enough" speeches , as I have gotten invited to two different DPS channels .
I chose to decline .
Players who are in your face and verbally violent over DPS results are not part of the DPS Channels.
So they only lead them , is that it ?
'Cuz we've had Ryan (yes , that Ryan , who goes here by EzriRyan) make a perfect fool of himself calling ppl "scrubs" ("because it's in a book" -- according to him) , and we've had more then a few theories on why we go such HP bags in DR (see Sarcasm Detector's trololol ISE vids prior to DR for more clues) .
See , as much as you don't want to believe this , the two flying egomaniacs above did a pretty substantial damage to their own cause by the way they represent it at times .
Are they a-holes all the time ?
Nope .
Have they somehow "earned" the way to talk down on others based on their performances ?
Not in my book ... -- but then again , I don't worship the parser like some folks do .
I appreciate competence , but I also healed / rezzed some of the best players I know , and that was enough to teach me that even the best are best under certain circumstances .
To me , the HP and "moar DPS" that came with DR is no longer a challenge .
In fact , DR took away some of the challenge to help struggling players , and that saddens me .
Thus DPS channels or not , we're all at a lower (sadder) point then we were prior to DR , and the segregation that the DPS channels promote sure isn't helping in my eyes .
Let me finish with a quote from a convo I had today with a friend :
friend : "... so Aelfwin , what are you doing right now ? "
me : "... what else ... , harvesting Omega Particles ... , while playing ISA ..."
friend : " ... whaaaat ??? "
I harbour no ill-will against anyone here. I choose to stick to PUGS simply because I find the unpredictable nature of them more enjoyable.
DPS is just...boring to me. Turn up, wipe out the map, leave.
Yet I still remember the best PUG I've ever had. 3 engineer cruisers and 2 science ships. It was a time before A2B was a thing, Romulan plasma, plasmonic leech or any other high DPS build for such vessels.
We died a lot, we failed optionals but we finished the mission with like 5 seconds left on the clock. Team chat was not only being used, everyone was thanking everyone else for heals and chipping in on what target we should shoot next.
I don't see PUGs like that anymore. And recently those who decide to build for fun are getting slated for it. Shame really.
The very fact players are forming exclusive channels for the highest dps players is honestly disgusting.
Just run the queues with your friends or fleet and have fun, who the hell cares if you do 50k dps or 5k (and by the way a well geared cruiser will be more in the 5k range almost inevitably).
Don't worry about min maxing, worry about FUN.
When players stop playing the game for fun, and DPS racing becomes the norm, the community enters a death spiral.
Fun.
It's subjective.
Different folks and all.
That you don't get that...
...is honestly disgusting.
* * * * *
edit: Oh, and I prefer the updated original post...I was really biting my tongue trying not to reply to the original version that was there. Kudos on making it a more positive first post for the thread.
coldnapalm, I'd like to point out that you're the only one in this entire thread who has resorted to constant name-calling in every post. The players that you're yelling at for being elitist aren't using that kind of language, and aren't getting up in arms over being challenged. But somehow, we're the ones spreading hate and putting down other players? I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that.
As I've stated before, there are players in the game who use DPS as a way to make themselves somehow look better than others, and they get their kicks by knocking other players down a few pegs. That isn't right. And players anywhere in the game should not be doing that kind of thing - let alone in the DPS Community, where that's explicitly disallowed.
See , as much as you don't want to believe this , the two flying egomaniacs above did a pretty substantial damage to their own cause by the way they represent it at times .
Admittedly I don't follow them religiously, and haven't seen the videos. So I can't really comment.
But if anyone spends as much time putting down players with some questionable phrasing as you say, yeah that's a problem. There's gotta be a gut check as you question yourself, by asking "is what I'm saying and how I'm saying it helping players, or is it actually putting others down?"
There is no such thing as "unqualified individuals" .
I'd say that yes there are, but it's not just about the DPS.
Before I even started looking at my own DPS, I tried some of the top-end content to see where I was at. I went into Korfez once I hit lvl60, and failed miserably. I have no idea what my DPS was at the time, or what it was in that Korfez run - I just knew I wasn't causing enough damage to the enemy, and that my build was way too squishy to survive that difficulty level. So I stayed away from Korfez until a couple weeks ago, when I felt I was good enough to contribute. And without tracking DPS, I could just see how effective my shots were against the Vaadwaur, and could see that I was holding my own against their return fire.
It's a bit of self-policing. If I know my build isn't great, then I should stay away from Advanced or Elite content - which, by definition, are for better builds. So over the months since DR released I've slowly worked to become better, and have started feeling more and more confident in the higher-difficulty content. You don't need DPS tracking to know if you are or aren't contributing in a queue.
So I think the main complaint about the high failure rate of Advanced PvE pugs is that there are a lot of players who dive into Advanced way before they're ready. I do pug a lot (usually myself and one or two fleetmates, then pug the rest), and I can't count how many times I've watched a player shoot endlessly at a target without making a dent, and keep getting shot to bits themselves. That player should know, without DPS tracking, that they haven't geared up or specialized enough to play Advanced content. Sure, if I can see they're healing like a boss, or playing crowd-control / debuff like a king, then I can admit and appreciate that they're contributing in a non-DPS way - and if the run has been parsed and they have low DPS, I can defend their playstyle regardless. But if a player is in Advanced content and is very clearly playing over their level... yeah, that's a problem.
Or a run with their fleet friends who treat all levels of players with respect and don't resent newbies or those gearing a new toon. All the camaraderie without the high-pressure tactics.
I'm part of a very big, very active fleet (actually 4 fleets: fed and kdf, plus 2 alt fleets, toons kicked out if you don't login for 30 days). I keep fleet chat in my first tab and I like my fleeties.
But they only do maybe 1 queue an hour, and that's only during peak connection times. Maybe 2 or 3 if it's the same people getting together a few times.
On the DPS channels, you can log in and find something to play in about 2 minutes if you're not picky, 10 minutes if you are.
Just wanted to say "mm-hmm" to the op. I'm not an uber-high DPSer or anything, but I put some work into my build and into learning the missions I play and it's nice to be able to play with others did the same. 10K dps is *not* hard at all (I get twice that on ISA with my drain build that has only 1 tac console and a 3/3 set-up with no pets) but some work is necessary. Plus you have to know how to use the chat functions to get into the queues so that's already a big improvement over PUGs.
Yes, there are some issues with these channels that I can think of. DPS isn't the only way to measure competence, but it is the easiest way to measure competence in this game with 10s of thousands of players. There is some ego in the channels, but not any more than in pugs where, if it fails, someone who has no idea what they're doing will inevitably call everyone "n00bs". There is some nauseating fan-boyism on the channels, but... well, that's just annoying but it's not like it's up all the time. ISA might not be the best way to test individual DPS (since it requires teamwork, has far more unshielded targets than most missions, and can be beaten so quickly that buffs like GDF and APA don't even reach cooldown, etc.), but considering how many missions include long periods of time without shooting things and how frequently the foundry is down, it's the best bad option.
But the bashing that I see on these forums? The people who made these channels learned the game's mechanics and continue to test new stuff and provided an enormous amount of information to the rest of us when it comes to builds and piloting and tactics. Even if you're not going to set a new DPS record, you've probably used information they found or brought attention to to help with whatever you're doing.
Bottom line: if you don't care about your dps, then don't worry about these channels. But don't hate the people who are in them.
I'm part of a very big, very active fleet (actually 4 fleets: fed and kdf, plus 2 alt fleets, toons kicked out if you don't login for 30 days). I keep fleet chat in my first tab and I like my fleeties.
But they only do maybe 1 queue an hour, and that's only during peak connection times. Maybe 2 or 3 if it's the same people getting together a few times.
On the DPS channels, you can log in and find something to play in about 2 minutes if you're not picky, 10 minutes if you are.
Especially based on what's been on display here from some (though yes, not ALL), I'd rather be patient and wait for my fleet--which in my case is actually split out across games--and have fun in a respectful environment.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
What if I'm a science that does half the required DPS but doubles the DPS of everyone on the team or keep them alive?
I keep hearing about these sci ships but never see them in game. The Recluses that pre-made teams take in to hit those really high DPSes might count, but they usually do over 20K.
Also too, why can't you have 10K dps *and* heals? There's nothing preventing that. I hit 20K DPS on my drain build last night: a sci ship where I have only 1 tactical console, 2 tactical boff abilities, and everything else is devoted to flow caps or drains (which doesn't count towards DPS). If I changed all my drain abilities for healing abilities and skills, my DPS would be unaffected in ISA.
What if I do 9.5K as opposed to 10K perhaps for the unlucky reason my torpedo hit a fraction after the NPC blew up?
You don't have to get 10K every single time. Even the rules state that you just need to get within 20% of the target DPS in the lower channels. You just need to get 10K DPS once and stay near there afterwards.
I was going to reply similarly, Alex, but didn't want to sidetrack the thread. Sadly it's become a whipping boy for those with massive chips on their shoulders and too much hate and nowhere to direct it.
First of all, there's no way you'd be in a sci boat doing half or less of everybody else in the game and doubling their dps. It doesn't work that way. You, as a sci, won't be doubling anybody's dps. However, even the more basic rudimentary builds can be quite effective and you can break 10k easily in a sci with blue XII gear and some well placed skill points. If you're a sci you can deal damage in other ways, especially exotic damage (which racks up REALLY fast the more effort you put into it).
Oh, and I forgot the second-of-all: You don't need a dedicated healer. No such thing in this game. Cross-healing is fine and welcome. However, if you dedicate yourself to only heals you're not helping the team. You can cross-heal from any ship in the game, even tactical-oriented escorts. All you need is HE, ST, ET, TT, TSS, Extend Shields, or various consoles and team abilities to share heals and keep people in the fight. You know there are even team-based batteries? You can slot a shields battery that helps everybody on your team at once, right? It only takes 1 or 2 cross-heal abilities to be a healer, so everybody is one. There's no reason to do nothing else, because you're wasting 90% of your capability that way.
You don't have to get 10K every single time. Even the rules state that you just need to get within 20% of the target DPS in the lower channels. You just need to get 10K DPS once and stay near there afterwards.
I'm going to have to jump in here to clarify this rule.
The way the channels work is in order to get into a channel, your highest parse has to be at the channel's rank or higher. However if you want to X up in a channel, your average parse has to be at the channel rank or higher.
The game has a build in fuzziness of plus or minus 10%. So the spirit of the rule is we allow people some leeway due to bad luck, real life aggro, lag, whatever... and the admins won't give anyone a hard time if they occasionally parse below the channel rank they Xed up in.
The third sentence in the rules specifically says: "But if it becomes a habit, you will be dropped down to a lower channel until you can consistently make your mark.". Using this rule as an excuse to constantly under perform is actually a violation of the rule.
Since we've had some issues with this recently we've reworded the rule to the following:
5. You are expected to do the DPS of the channel you join a run in, do not join runs in channels with toons that cannot meet the channel's standard. We understand everyone has a bad run every so often but if it becomes a habit, you will be dropped down to a lower channel until you can consistently make your mark. This rule applies for all channels.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Only an admin or an operator of the channels are allowed to talk to channels members about their DPS, if they are under performing.
I've heard about and seen non-admins berating other members about their DPS... let me be clear: this is a violation of rule #2.
2. No harassing or abusing other DPS channel members.
Anyone breaking this rule does not get a warning, it's straight to a 24 kick or permaban depending on the severity of the offense and the grumpiness of the admin.
Don't compare DPS channels with public or 10k, guys. Nothing like 30k+
Statements like this pretty much invalidate all the 'public relations' people to do try to recruit for their channels lol
I dont join such channels which require you to do x amount of whatevers before I can even join and talk to people. Let alone the 10k guys can't socialize with the 30k guys. I feel like I am in grade school or something lol.
But I am stopping to do the q's completely with the new changes anyhow. I find them to be well borring and I dont like systems where I have to hurry up and get in line and wait for something.
Its funny i have been away from the forum for almost 2 months because i get my fill of hearing the same thing over and over again. I return and what do i see at the forefront
dps dps dps how great the channel is. If it was so great why is there always a post about how great it is .. the channel would sell itself by word of mouth :P
Don't compare DPS channels with public or 10k, guys. Nothing like 30k+
Statements like this pretty much invalidate all the 'public relations' people to do try to recruit for their channels lol
I guess I'm lucky I'm not a PR guy for the DPS channels...because to be honest, it would be my sincere hope that the 30k+ channels and beyond are not like 10k.
It's one of the reasons I suggested in the other thread that 10k be merged with Public and a new gated standard be set at either 15k or 20k. I leaned more toward 20k, cause it would keep me and my failgasms of builds out.
There is no such thing as "unqualified individuals" .
There absolutely is, and I'm not talking only about DPS.
I'm going back to the heyday of PESTF, before all this power creep, where everyone was qualified.
What did qualified mean? It meant they had the knowledge, or at least were acquiring the knowledge.
For ISE, it meant everyone knew the 10% method, and could control their fire to coordinate. For CSE, it meant knowing MRRMLL.
If you don't know, you should ask and get it explained before the match starts. There's been a lot of times where people have stated they don't know, and that's fine. We'd explain it, and things would go well. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about those who refused to acknowledge their ignorance, refuses to learn, and messes it up for everyone else. Blowing up a generator before the others are even under 50%. Ignoring probes when you were supposedly on probe duty.
It also means the minimum level of performance necessary to perform your role.
The bar wasn't high, but it was there. If you can't hold off a wave of probes in KSE two years ago, there's something ruddy wrong with what you're doing. Sci ships with Grav Well, escorts with CSV, whatever - you should be able to take down a bunch of unarmed, unshielded probes!
If you can't do the minimum necessary to fill your role in a team, if you had no idea what you were doing and can't learn, you're unqualified for that position. That applies to everything in life.
Comments
Those threads, with no basis in fact, are what drive me to make this post. Show the community what the channels are about and have to offer to those who want it. Not just the threads bashing those who prefer DPS League style gameplay and blaming them for what they believe to be wrong with the game in its current state.
As stated right above by millimidget, "if the conventional wisdom of the anti-DPSers is that PUGs are, at best, unpredictable, how is that in disagreement with the thread title?"
No one is looked down upon by the DPS community as a whole. We respect and understand there are lots of different ways to play and have fun. This is our way, and we share it with anyone who wants it. We want to play a certain way and seek out others who share in that preferred method, just like other STO communities do.
You're not wrong; there's a widely held opinion on these forums that if you've streamlined your build in any way, or have any Mk XII VR or better pieces equipped, then you're doing it wrong.
How so? You made a leap here without explaining it. Unless your point is that a thread title with "DPS channel matches' will draw the attention of many DPS critics. My only issue then is that they'd show up even if the thread title was different.
What talk? The only elitism on display is from the DPS critics.
Another leap. I'm interested in hearing your supporting arguments.
He did. Even then, some found reason to feel offended.
Sounds like you're already claiming ownership of it. Talk about entitled.
Where was this said? In the title? You're reading that when it doesn't explicitly state it, and only one of several interpretations even implies it.
Which only seems to reinforce the opinion that it's your own internal conflict at work here, leading you to take offense when none was given.
While that may not be an effective method of policing, it should help you gain some perspective.
How? If they're not already totally comfortable with "doing what they want," how could offering help be doing anything to hurt them?
What more can he do?
You could try having a little bit of the empathy you're demanding everyone else extend towards you. It would be a great place to start.
That imaging problem is largely a myth developed and maintained by the DPS critics. Without them acknowledging to themselves that maybe it's their own failing at work, there's little that can be done to change their minds.
(I'm not the OP) I'm incapable of even seeing how it could be inflammatory. Please, explain it to me.
What attitude? Again, the most hostile attitudes in this thread are from the DPS critics. But, you don't even consider that, do you?
I just can't stand your self-righteous attitude, or the idea that anyone would be expected to tailor everything around your current (and unknown) mental state for fear of offending you. I've seen firsthand just how abusive that can be, and how horribly it can wreck the life of the person always expected to compromise their own opinions, emotions and beliefs.
All offense intended; that's a terrible explanation.
Here's a special snowflake award; can we now move past your own sense of pride?
Maybe I should just spam emjois; that might distract the hypersensitive.
I really couldn't care. You seem to be higher maintenance than I'd want in a e-gaming friend.
Keep on carrying that pride.
I'd love to see how it comes out. Let me now beg forgiveness for the offense you no doubt take at my request.
PS: I feel dirty just clicking on those things. They're like forum herpes.
To take care of the title debate, it isn't meant as a jab at those players who prefer to pug, but merely a comparison of how a match from the dps channels well perform better to meet the missions goals than a pug. This has even been admitted to by those who don't like the channels and have sworn to never use them. Which I will state one again, is perfectly okay. Everyone should be allowed to play how they want, that being said like-minded individuals will come together to share in similar forms of enjoyment. I.E. the DPS channels (for some).
So you continue to speak of inflammatory titles and hostile attitudes...while insulting me and comparing me to a dev that everyone knows has negative connotations. Aside from that it's safe to say we disagree on how this DPS channel image issue should be dealt with, and now should probably be left at that.
I think your mistake was the grammar fail in the title. It should read, "Why DPS channel matches are better than PUG matches."
The vagueness of the subject "Pugs" is generating much unnecessary hate.
Random players are apparently identifying themselves as PUGs; I wonder if they even queue often.
But, that's how bad the situation is in regards to the image factor, that something as simple as a grammatical error can produce so much indignation.
I'll be honest, the only thing I know about STO RP is that they hate disco balls. As do I, but that's besides the point. I'm guessing what you mean is they can get their RP enjoyment better in private away from those who would troll them (insert disco ball here) and what have you.
Just for clarification I am NOT saying all those who pug are trolls.
There are added requirements to RP. It's more difficult to pick up than min-maxing, let alone master. I don't RP, but even I'm aware that 90% of RP-wannabes start off with things like "I'm (insert lead character)'s (insert relative, degree of ancestry, etc)," and that's just terrible RP. Disco balls aside, it takes quite a bit of talent to RP well, and/or you need to maintain low expectations.
Not that they'd admit that the one requirement of DPS League - bring enough DPS, is like 1/10th the requirements of any reasonable RP organization, and comes with 10x the leeway.
If only there was room to fit that into the title.
Incidentally, you should find a solid recruiter and have them promote the league in public zone chat. Provide a link to whatever the most centralized resource or collection of resources can be found, particularly one which directly promotes the STO Academy builder, 1-2 guides on very basic equipment loadouts, and video guides on the most popular queues. Include a plug for the public chat channel, and conclude it with some empty feelgood line, preferably slightly RPish in nature.
Constant self-promotion will do more than any amount of forum posting.
Just run the queues with your friends or fleet and have fun, who the hell cares if you do 50k dps or 5k (and by the way a well geared cruiser will be more in the 5k range almost inevitably).
Don't worry about min maxing, worry about FUN.
When players stop playing the game for fun, and DPS racing becomes the norm, the community enters a death spiral.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
You are wasting your breath. They cant see pass they own egos and parsers and they are extremly short sighted ppl who cant even take responsability for their own actions. And no matter how much PR paint they apply, the DPS comunity's malicious actions speak otherwise. Its one of the most wretched lot one could ever meet in a game. They say one thing, that they dont want to impose their gameplay style on others, yet everything they do is exactly the opposite. They dont care about the consequences of their actions like parsing ppl without their acknowledgemnt and permision and storing that data and then posting it on 3rd party sites, wich apparently now is the inofficial STO leaderboard:rolleyes: (wich is in fact just a DPS comunity boad, nothing more). Consequneces like increased hacking attempts and in-game spam by goldsellers.
And how much arrogance to consider yourself Dev-like and above the TOS rules (Term of Service Pharagraph 15. User conduct, subparagraph 15.2.g. state that user account data is forbitten to be stored, and for alot of ppl, the @handle may be their acc ID aswell) and going in the PUBLIC queues and PUBLIC channels and "gather data", again without ppl acknowledgement and permision. They get pissed when ppl put them on ignore thinking folks cant be bothered, yet they cant be bothered to respect TOS rules or at least to let ppl know if they are parsed or to ask any sort of permision. God forbid to be bother to keep their parsing IN the DPS channels.
Soo much truth man.
For me I have a really hard time to understand why anybody could either have a problem with DPSers or BAD Pugs.
I make use of both of them the way I see fit:
One provide knowledge, the other provide practice.
One provides a smooth and fast grind, the other provide challenge.
Whatever I do in STO I do it my way and when I do I know for what Ive signed up for.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I found myself in I believe it was the old 20K DPS channel without ever asking to join, but saw a request for a team for an Infected space, so I thought why not...
Even though the match ran well enough, I got shouted at for not reading chat and following commands afterward and was put on ignore before I could respond.
Apparently my sin was to not notice a single abbreviated 3 letter instruction that I neither was familiar with nor really conciously noticed when it was posted.
I had to ask someone else from the team what my "mistake" was.
I left the channel after that and never looked back.
Could be an unusually bad first impression, but it's the one that counts.
Maybe if you take someone new on the team, don't assume he knows everything in advance without actual communication.
What I took away from the whole experience was that if anyone in any way does not absolutely the maximum DPS possible even though it is not necessary for a successful run he is not welcome.
I do .
Because to me , a chance at failure = a chance at success , and to be honest , in the last year or two prior to DR , that was pretty much all the actual thrill that this game provided to me (aside from PVP, but I left that when I understood what was coming a long while back) .
I also understand that this kind of thrill is not for everyone , and that's ok .
There is no such thing as "unqualified individuals" .
That's just gamer l33t speak .
Let me put it in another therm :
Most players (STO included) have had that special thrill when they conquerd a difficult bit of content (be that alone or in a group) .
That thrill is special , and unique .
I enjoy helping the very same "unqualified individuals" as you call them to get that thrill . Who knows , for some of them it may be their very first time (as STO is populated with quite a few non-gamer "Trekkies") .
Do the DPS channels provide such a service (aside from perhaps DPS Public) ?
Frankly , I don't think so ... , and I think that because as a closed society , all you care is about yourselves .
That is a partial history at best .
See , alongside PSTF and ESTF , there have been several STF channels that have operated for a long time (some pre-F2P) .
The Hive , and STFRaiders are just two that I can recall , but there were others .
Point being that :
a) Fleets aside , many players relied on channels outside of PSTF and ESTF (and the DPS channels are just the latest variation on that theme) .
b) The DPS channels didn't invent the idea of competent players who wanted to play with other competent players .
The major difference between the two types of channel's is in the ways of admittance , and in the ways of behavior after admittance .
In the DPS channels , the admittance is based on "jump ye high" , and after admittance , you get constantly (and I mean CONSTANTLY) judged in public based on numbers (that are at times less then accurate) .
You'll forgive me , but I find both to be highly revolting behavior (and you can save me your "you're not good enough" speeches , as I have gotten invited to two different DPS channels .
I chose to decline .
So they only lead them , is that it ?
'Cuz we've had Ryan (yes , that Ryan , who goes here by EzriRyan) make a perfect fool of himself calling ppl "scrubs" ("because it's in a book" -- according to him) , and we've had more then a few theories on why we go such HP bags in DR (see Sarcasm Detector's trololol ISE vids prior to DR for more clues) .
See , as much as you don't want to believe this , the two flying egomaniacs above did a pretty substantial damage to their own cause by the way they represent it at times .
Are they a-holes all the time ?
Nope .
Have they somehow "earned" the way to talk down on others based on their performances ?
Not in my book ... -- but then again , I don't worship the parser like some folks do .
I appreciate competence , but I also healed / rezzed some of the best players I know , and that was enough to teach me that even the best are best under certain circumstances .
To me , the HP and "moar DPS" that came with DR is no longer a challenge .
In fact , DR took away some of the challenge to help struggling players , and that saddens me .
Thus DPS channels or not , we're all at a lower (sadder) point then we were prior to DR , and the segregation that the DPS channels promote sure isn't helping in my eyes .
Let me finish with a quote from a convo I had today with a friend :
friend : "... so Aelfwin , what are you doing right now ? "
me : "... what else ... , harvesting Omega Particles ... , while playing ISA ..."
friend : " ... whaaaat ??? "
... parse that why don't you ... :cool:
DPS is just...boring to me. Turn up, wipe out the map, leave.
Yet I still remember the best PUG I've ever had. 3 engineer cruisers and 2 science ships. It was a time before A2B was a thing, Romulan plasma, plasmonic leech or any other high DPS build for such vessels.
We died a lot, we failed optionals but we finished the mission with like 5 seconds left on the clock. Team chat was not only being used, everyone was thanking everyone else for heals and chipping in on what target we should shoot next.
I don't see PUGs like that anymore. And recently those who decide to build for fun are getting slated for it. Shame really.
Fun.
It's subjective.
Different folks and all.
That you don't get that...
...is honestly disgusting.
* * * * *
edit: Oh, and I prefer the updated original post...I was really biting my tongue trying not to reply to the original version that was there. Kudos on making it a more positive first post for the thread.
coldnapalm, I'd like to point out that you're the only one in this entire thread who has resorted to constant name-calling in every post. The players that you're yelling at for being elitist aren't using that kind of language, and aren't getting up in arms over being challenged. But somehow, we're the ones spreading hate and putting down other players? I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that.
As I've stated before, there are players in the game who use DPS as a way to make themselves somehow look better than others, and they get their kicks by knocking other players down a few pegs. That isn't right. And players anywhere in the game should not be doing that kind of thing - let alone in the DPS Community, where that's explicitly disallowed.
Admittedly I don't follow them religiously, and haven't seen the videos. So I can't really comment.
But if anyone spends as much time putting down players with some questionable phrasing as you say, yeah that's a problem. There's gotta be a gut check as you question yourself, by asking "is what I'm saying and how I'm saying it helping players, or is it actually putting others down?"
I'd say that yes there are, but it's not just about the DPS.
Before I even started looking at my own DPS, I tried some of the top-end content to see where I was at. I went into Korfez once I hit lvl60, and failed miserably. I have no idea what my DPS was at the time, or what it was in that Korfez run - I just knew I wasn't causing enough damage to the enemy, and that my build was way too squishy to survive that difficulty level. So I stayed away from Korfez until a couple weeks ago, when I felt I was good enough to contribute. And without tracking DPS, I could just see how effective my shots were against the Vaadwaur, and could see that I was holding my own against their return fire.
It's a bit of self-policing. If I know my build isn't great, then I should stay away from Advanced or Elite content - which, by definition, are for better builds. So over the months since DR released I've slowly worked to become better, and have started feeling more and more confident in the higher-difficulty content. You don't need DPS tracking to know if you are or aren't contributing in a queue.
So I think the main complaint about the high failure rate of Advanced PvE pugs is that there are a lot of players who dive into Advanced way before they're ready. I do pug a lot (usually myself and one or two fleetmates, then pug the rest), and I can't count how many times I've watched a player shoot endlessly at a target without making a dent, and keep getting shot to bits themselves. That player should know, without DPS tracking, that they haven't geared up or specialized enough to play Advanced content. Sure, if I can see they're healing like a boss, or playing crowd-control / debuff like a king, then I can admit and appreciate that they're contributing in a non-DPS way - and if the run has been parsed and they have low DPS, I can defend their playstyle regardless. But if a player is in Advanced content and is very clearly playing over their level... yeah, that's a problem.
I'm part of a very big, very active fleet (actually 4 fleets: fed and kdf, plus 2 alt fleets, toons kicked out if you don't login for 30 days). I keep fleet chat in my first tab and I like my fleeties.
But they only do maybe 1 queue an hour, and that's only during peak connection times. Maybe 2 or 3 if it's the same people getting together a few times.
On the DPS channels, you can log in and find something to play in about 2 minutes if you're not picky, 10 minutes if you are.
Yes, there are some issues with these channels that I can think of. DPS isn't the only way to measure competence, but it is the easiest way to measure competence in this game with 10s of thousands of players. There is some ego in the channels, but not any more than in pugs where, if it fails, someone who has no idea what they're doing will inevitably call everyone "n00bs". There is some nauseating fan-boyism on the channels, but... well, that's just annoying but it's not like it's up all the time. ISA might not be the best way to test individual DPS (since it requires teamwork, has far more unshielded targets than most missions, and can be beaten so quickly that buffs like GDF and APA don't even reach cooldown, etc.), but considering how many missions include long periods of time without shooting things and how frequently the foundry is down, it's the best bad option.
But the bashing that I see on these forums? The people who made these channels learned the game's mechanics and continue to test new stuff and provided an enormous amount of information to the rest of us when it comes to builds and piloting and tactics. Even if you're not going to set a new DPS record, you've probably used information they found or brought attention to to help with whatever you're doing.
Bottom line: if you don't care about your dps, then don't worry about these channels. But don't hate the people who are in them.
Especially based on what's been on display here from some (though yes, not ALL), I'd rather be patient and wait for my fleet--which in my case is actually split out across games--and have fun in a respectful environment.
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First of all, there's no way you'd be in a sci boat doing half or less of everybody else in the game and doubling their dps. It doesn't work that way. You, as a sci, won't be doubling anybody's dps. However, even the more basic rudimentary builds can be quite effective and you can break 10k easily in a sci with blue XII gear and some well placed skill points. If you're a sci you can deal damage in other ways, especially exotic damage (which racks up REALLY fast the more effort you put into it).
Oh, and I forgot the second-of-all: You don't need a dedicated healer. No such thing in this game. Cross-healing is fine and welcome. However, if you dedicate yourself to only heals you're not helping the team. You can cross-heal from any ship in the game, even tactical-oriented escorts. All you need is HE, ST, ET, TT, TSS, Extend Shields, or various consoles and team abilities to share heals and keep people in the fight. You know there are even team-based batteries? You can slot a shields battery that helps everybody on your team at once, right? It only takes 1 or 2 cross-heal abilities to be a healer, so everybody is one. There's no reason to do nothing else, because you're wasting 90% of your capability that way.
I'm going to have to jump in here to clarify this rule.
The way the channels work is in order to get into a channel, your highest parse has to be at the channel's rank or higher. However if you want to X up in a channel, your average parse has to be at the channel rank or higher.
The game has a build in fuzziness of plus or minus 10%. So the spirit of the rule is we allow people some leeway due to bad luck, real life aggro, lag, whatever... and the admins won't give anyone a hard time if they occasionally parse below the channel rank they Xed up in.
The third sentence in the rules specifically says: "But if it becomes a habit, you will be dropped down to a lower channel until you can consistently make your mark.". Using this rule as an excuse to constantly under perform is actually a violation of the rule.
Since we've had some issues with this recently we've reworded the rule to the following:
IMPORTANT NOTE: Only an admin or an operator of the channels are allowed to talk to channels members about their DPS, if they are under performing.
I've heard about and seen non-admins berating other members about their DPS... let me be clear: this is a violation of rule #2.
Anyone breaking this rule does not get a warning, it's straight to a 24 kick or permaban depending on the severity of the offense and the grumpiness of the admin.
Statements like this pretty much invalidate all the 'public relations' people to do try to recruit for their channels lol
I dont join such channels which require you to do x amount of whatevers before I can even join and talk to people. Let alone the 10k guys can't socialize with the 30k guys. I feel like I am in grade school or something lol.
But I am stopping to do the q's completely with the new changes anyhow. I find them to be well borring and I dont like systems where I have to hurry up and get in line and wait for something.
Its funny i have been away from the forum for almost 2 months because i get my fill of hearing the same thing over and over again. I return and what do i see at the forefront
dps dps dps how great the channel is. If it was so great why is there always a post about how great it is .. the channel would sell itself by word of mouth :P
Posts like this would be unecessary
I guess I'm lucky I'm not a PR guy for the DPS channels...because to be honest, it would be my sincere hope that the 30k+ channels and beyond are not like 10k.
It's one of the reasons I suggested in the other thread that 10k be merged with Public and a new gated standard be set at either 15k or 20k. I leaned more toward 20k, cause it would keep me and my failgasms of builds out.
I'm going back to the heyday of PESTF, before all this power creep, where everyone was qualified.
What did qualified mean? It meant they had the knowledge, or at least were acquiring the knowledge.
For ISE, it meant everyone knew the 10% method, and could control their fire to coordinate. For CSE, it meant knowing MRRMLL.
If you don't know, you should ask and get it explained before the match starts. There's been a lot of times where people have stated they don't know, and that's fine. We'd explain it, and things would go well. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about those who refused to acknowledge their ignorance, refuses to learn, and messes it up for everyone else. Blowing up a generator before the others are even under 50%. Ignoring probes when you were supposedly on probe duty.
It also means the minimum level of performance necessary to perform your role.
The bar wasn't high, but it was there. If you can't hold off a wave of probes in KSE two years ago, there's something ruddy wrong with what you're doing. Sci ships with Grav Well, escorts with CSV, whatever - you should be able to take down a bunch of unarmed, unshielded probes!
If you can't do the minimum necessary to fill your role in a team, if you had no idea what you were doing and can't learn, you're unqualified for that position. That applies to everything in life.