In last few days i did several tests in both PvE and PvP to check how big impact the Enhanced Armor Penetration had on overall effective damage since Delta Rising.
And it had a BIG impact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sUfT2EgO1w
My test showed that my maximum hits in PvE have been more then doubled with the trait.
And in PvP difference in having this on or off is the difference of being killed in 1 shot or surviving.
We got confirmation by Borticus that it is getting fixed since it debuffed the target for way more then 5% and closer to the 50%.
What will this mean for PvE and PvP?
Also there is a test where I show how you can fire Isokinetic cannon from normal battlecloak without breaking the cloak and how same thing on Phantom will break it's cloak.
Check it out.
Comments
Does this mean that the T4 Dyson Rep's scaling - DmgRes might be broken as well?
No. Did test on that as well. Results are way lower with Dyson trait ON versus Delta Penetration trait ON.
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I mean, I know it isn't supposed to work this way but, could it be possible this is the actual result?
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Indeed, it seems that it is stacking when more people that have the same trait attack the same target. That's why you can get astronomical damage. Otherwise the numbers just don't add up.
My tests on naked hull on non-moving ships have shown that target gets debuffed in moment of hit. In the video when I shoot Sheshar with the trait on, he reports that his kinetic resistance drops from 60.7 to 18 in the moment of hit.
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Most of the DPS League above 50k relies on broken mechanics like neutronics, doping and this trait.
If anything their own excessive use of them makes them more likely to be spotted by devs than numbercrunching by devoted PvPers.
Besides that, it really *is* always the PvP-ers crying for a nerf, as they're the ones dying from it. PvP-ers tend to be rather ego-centric that way: I rarely see a PvE-er wanting to ruin it for everyone else. And, from their perspective, that's not even unreasonable per se.
50%, where 5% was intended, really *does* deserves a fix, though.
Most of it is doping though combined with massive resistance debuffs from this trait or APB3 spam.
Max i got from DHC+neutronic scimi shown in video was 50kDPS with neutronic doing 28-30k and other weapons doing additional 20+kDPS. Was 12mil DMG though.
Of course you can do more in faster runs or with equipping torpedo tac consoles.
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it is not only that. it seems that that 50 stacks when more people attack the same target and have the same trait.
And BTW PvPers didn't even "cry" for that fix. In one thread I asked Borticus to check it and he replied that it has already been fixed internally to debuff for correct number. Which is 5 not 50. When it will become Live, i don't know.
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Which is why I think it deserves a fix, the grinding of my teeth despite.
Next on the list (hopefully): Recluse beta-stacking.
What's going on with Recluse Beta stacking?
Nerfing Recluse Beta stacking would most likely nerf beta stacking. I dont want that.
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I think no NPC should ever experience negative armor resists (quite possible with beta-stacking). In RL, negative armor resists would mean you're exploding on the spot, without being hit even.
Do NPCs even resistances?
Going from 60.7 to 18...that's uh, a pretty heinous amount of debuffing.
60.7 would be somewhere ~194 Kinetic DRR.
Dropping it down to 18 would require ~900 DRR or so of debuffing.
It's supposed to be an inline debuff, so it only applies to the hit...but for it to be ~900?
Hit an NPC (most have 0% DR), and the Enhanced Armor Penetration applies -50 DRR...increasing the damage by ~48.84%.
Damage Resistance resists changes to Damage Resistance as well as Resisting Damage. That -50 DRR debuff against a target with ~60.7% DR would have dropped it down to ~53.2%. EAP was never really going to be a big thing in PvP...because of DR resisting changes to DR. It was only a thing against those NPCs with 0% DR where outside of any other debuffs it would increase hull damage by ~48.84%.
With that 60.7%...was that boosted by PH, HE, AtS...Aux based DRR buffs that would have been reduced because of drain from the Neutronic before the EAP debuff was even applied?
I never did any player testing because of the DR resisting DR sort of thing.
My concern was them nerfing something else based on testing done with EAP vs NPCs. I mean, c'mon, it's a T2 Rep trait vs. some stuff out there that can get kind of expensive. Didn't want them tweaking/reducing/nerfing anything else and then realizing it was EAP that was causing it...and...never getting around to untweaking/unreducing/unnerfing whatever they had.
I'm just trying to picture how it would take somebody from ~60.7% to ~18%...cause yeah, that would be ~900 worth of debuffing going on there.
You don't happen to have any lines from the combatlog showing the naked hull hits, do you?
"line stuff", Actual Hull Damage, Base Damage
That sort of thing, eh?
I'm trying to think of other ways that they might have the formula working to get from 60.7 to 18...hrmm, just not seeing anything. Might get more into a rbaker82/frtoaster sort of thing.
Cause looking at logs for ISA runs from some of the highest DPS folks, there is usually somewhere between 200% to nearing 300% damage being done. Tend to see ~270% damage come up often, which means that the group is stacking ~225 DRR in debuffs (to get that ~170% increase). That's with beta stacking, sensor scans, EAP, etc.
Changing it from -50 to -5, would take that 225 down to 180...taking the ~170% increase to ~147%; a loss of ~23% damage. If they're rocking ~190%, it drops to ~170% and a decrease of ~20%.
That's compared to a group without any debuffing going on that was getting ~48.84% dropping down to ~5%; a loss of ~43.84% damage.
That's an incremental loss, not an overall loss.
Say an attack was 1000 damage, against a target with 0% DR and EAP it's doing 1488.4 damage. With EAP at -5 instead of -50, that would be 1050 damage. So their overall damage would be ~70.7%, a loss of 29.3% overall.
For the folks doing +170%, that 1000 damage would have been 2700 damage. With it being +147%, that 1000 damage would be 2470 damage. ~91.5% of the overall damage, and an overall loss of ~8.5% damage.
Just wanted to make that clear, as far as my understanding goes, with the difference in the amount of buff lost vs. actual damage lost.
But yeah, getting back to PvP...never really considered it.
60% DR vs. EAP: ~8% additional
50% DR vs. EAP: ~12.2% additional
40% DR vs. EAP: ~17.4% additional
30% DR vs. EAP: ~23.7% additional
20% DR vs. EAP: ~30.2% additional
10% DR vs. EAP: ~39.7% additional
0% DR vs. EAP: ~48.84% additional
So that 60.7 to 18...yeah, just not getting that at all.
The majority of NPCs have 0 DRR/0% DR and thus offer no resistance to resistance debuffs.
With their 50 Shield Power, they're also only sporting 14% Shield Damage Reduction vs. Energy (one of the reasons that it's easier just to bruteforce the shields down). Course, that means they've got ~78.5% or so still against Kinetic.
Fix =/= nerf, and this is a fix.
The recluse carrier pets can use Attack Pattern Beta III. Since you have multiples of them, that's a lot of APB III debuffs against enemies that practically have no damage reduction in the first place. The debuff stacks (with the usual diminishing returns, but it's still pretty strong). That allows vastly inflating the damage output of everyone against the affected target.
I've tried the penetration trait many times. It does NOT yield substantial results. If the world was ending, as you suggest, then I'd be popping ISA runs instantly. Instead, after slotting it I see little improvement in my damage at all and often debate moving to another trait.
Overall I don't know what the fuss is about, because nobody has been talking about using it, nobody lists it as a trait on their uber mega 60k-75k-100k+ ship builds. I think you're blowing it out of proportion and looking for problems rather than observing problems naturally occurring.
i show some lines from CL in video but i have cut most of my tests so the video wouldn't be 2 hrs long
i still have the recordings. could make some screens.
Anyway, it is not only -50 all dmg res, it seems and i hear confirmations in game that this trait is stacking when moire people with trait on shoot same target.
Res debuff is only applied in moment of hit and lasting very shortly; given how in ISA for example it's all about AoE and there is a very high number of hits/weapon activations with ACC practically 100%, that debuff can go astronomically high.
Otherwise you just can't explain neutronic TS hits of over 200k/hit or HYs over 500k.
That is 100x base damage!
In PvP, well, numbers from hits/debuffs are stable with/without trait. But it certainly is not -50DRredux. will make some screens later.
EDIT: it's not 60.7 - 18 kin res debuff. it's 57.5 - 18 kin res. made a slight mistake there. 60.7 was all energy res and it got debuffed to 32 i believe(need to check recordings again on all energy debuff though)
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Actually it was the guy with the dps profile picture exposing the plasma doping thing to the whole world and I don't remember I have seen him posting in the pvp subforums .
And I don't remember pvpers complaining that much about plasma doping if they ever complained about that at all .
Single person using the trait in PvE might see minor to moderate damage improvement, depending on group, weapons/skills/playstyle etc.
But when entire team uses the trait the numbers are much, much higher.
3 days ago I have organized an ISA run on 30k channel, 4 people without the trait.
What were my average max hits of 150k-200k were brought down to 85k max hits(critical).
And you can see in video in ISA how i can do 150k non-critical hits.
only difference-EAP trait on/off.
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you are right, pvpers never complained about plasma doping in PvP section. It just isn't that effective in PvP and can be countered easily.
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Hazard Emitter is just so common in PvP that plasma burns are not very notable. Also a reason why Aceton Beam sucks so much. In PvP, everyone auto-counters it with his usual defense strategies, and in PVE, NPC damage is not worth debuffing and the damage dealt by the power is neglible against these hit point bags.
Wierd. I see it listed on every single high dps build. And its in all my builds. always the same 4 traits.
Precision (+4% CC), Advanced Targetting(+16% CS), Enhanced Armor Penetration(+5% Armor Pen), Aux Power Config Offense(Scaling +Damage).
Like every single High DPS build is always the same. Unless your looking at STO Skillplanner builds where you have no Idea what they're using, Every high DPS build on Sto Reddit lists those same traits.
All the resist formulas go negative.
15:02:18:20:31:30.5::(SomePlayer),,*,Gateway,C[79709 Mission_Borgraid1_Transwarp_02],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Kinetic,Critical,144850,49101.9
49101.9 TS3 Neut hit did 144850 damage (~295%).
15:02:16:07:56:17.6::(SomePlayer),Hvy Gravimetric Device I,C[1063 Gravimetric_Torpedo_Heavy_1],Nanite Transformer,C[384 Mission_Borgraid1_Comm_Array],High Yield Gravimetric Explosion I,Pn.Lfycj41,Kinetic,,117270,45828
45828 HY1 Grav Photon did 117270 damage (~256%).
15:02:15:22:57:45.4::(SomePlayer),Nimbus Pirate Distress Call,C[2125 Space_Nimbus_Pirate_Distress_4],Gateway,C[1230 Mission_Borgraid1_Transwarp_02],Photon Torpedo - Salvo I,Pn.Tbz3l21,Kinetic,Critical,97481.5,39745.1
39745.1 HY1 Photon Salvo hit (from Nimbus, lol) did 97481.5 damage (~245%).
15:02:15:09:54:28.7::(SomePlayer),,*,Nanite Transformer,C[120379 Mission_Borgraid1_Comm_Array],Dual Antiproton Banks - Overload II,Pn.Tb2y7y1,AntiProton,Critical,116132,38166.4
38166.4 BO2 hit from AP DBB did 116132 damage (~304%).
15:02:11:04:22:09.2::(SomePlayer),Republic Dhelan Warbird,C[1081 Rom_Distress_Call_Escort],Tactical Cube,C[848 Space_Borg_Dreadnought_Raidisode_Sibrian_Final_Boss],Photon Torpedo - Salvo II,Pn.Pwk3v21,Kinetic,Critical,106814,44628.2
44628.2 HY2 Photon Salvo hit (from a Dhelan support, lol) did 106814 damage (~239%).
These are the top hits from five of the top logs I've downloaded...
15:01:25:12:36:54.1::(SomePlayer),,*,Gateway,C[19 Mission_Borgraid1_Transwarp_02],Nukara Web Breaker,Pn.3fey1u1,Tetryon,Critical|Flank,72879.8,27521.4
27521.4 Web Breaker hit did 72879.8 damage (~265%).
15:01:11:23:49:16.3::(SomePlayer),,*,Nanite Sphere,C[33891 Mission_Infected_Healer_Sphere],Nadion Saturation Bomb,Pn.C8auzo,Shield,,-50590,-149628
15:01:11:23:49:16.3::(SomePlayer),Nadion Saturation Bomb,C[33925 Stationmod_Patrol_Escort_5_Refit_Nadion_Saturation_Bomb],Nanite Sphere,C[33891 Mission_Infected_Healer_Sphere],Nadion Saturation Bomb,Pn.C8auzo,Phaser,Critical,233361,146824
146824 Nadion Saturation Bomb hit did...
50590 to shields
233361 to hull
...and I'm not going to try to figure out what the actual damage was. I suck at figuring out the second shield number there in cases where the hull has been debuffed. If there was no additional bleed, no debuff on the shields (standard 84%), etc, etc, etc...roughly speaking then I'd say this was (~200%).
14:12:30:23:29:32.0::(SomePlayer),Nanite Sphere,C[29459 Mission_Infected_Healer_Sphere],Tactical Cube,C[29488 Space_Borg_Dreadnought_Raidisode_Sibrian_Final_Boss],Isometric Charge,Pn.Fiu7kr1,Electrical,Flank,-115103,-35432.2
35432.2 Isometric hit did 115103 damage (~325%).
15:01:12:01:13:51.0::(SomePlayer),,*,Gateway,C[15780 Mission_Borgraid1_Transwarp_02],Refracting Tetryon Cascade,Pn.Gkpvrt1,Tetryon,Critical,92348.4,33589.8
33589.8 Tet Cascade hit did 92348.4 damage (~275%).
15:01:04:21:06:29.9::(SomePlayer),,*,Gateway,C[134584 Mission_Borgraid1_Transwarp_02],Refracting Tetryon Cascade,Pn.Gkpvrt1,Tetryon,Critical,102829,33805.8
33805.8 Tet Cascade hit did 102829 damage (~304%).
* * * * * * *
So those hits reflected debuffing that resulted in an additional ~100-225% damage (~200-325% damage).
A tooltip may list a wee little number there...but by the time folks are finished buffing (not debuffing, just buffing) those numbers aren't so wee anymore.
I mean, consider the following, eh? APA, APO, Aux Offensive, Critical Severity, EPtW, [AMP], Consoles, G14 Gearing, GDF, Accolades, Skills, work in some Ambush/Rombush, and the list goes on for a bit there...with all that, you're going to have a nifty little number there before the 2-3x comes about from debuffing.
With the way everything is about ratios/percentages...even the simplest things, yeah?
Say we've got an additional 6x boost going on...
100 becomes 600. +500.
1000 becomes 6000. +5000.
10000 becomes 60000. +50000.
It was the same 6x boost though. Work in 3x from debuffing, eh?
100 becomes 600 becomes 1800. +1700.
1000 becomes 6000 becomes 18000. +17000.
10000 becomes 60000 becomes 180000. +170000.
Comparing the 100 and 10000 damage attacks, that 1:100 ratio gets maintained throughout.
So what started off as a difference of 10000 - 100 = 9900...
Became a difference of 60000 - 600 = 59400...
Ended as a difference of 180000 - 1800 = 178200...
Same boosts/debuffs applied...one attack gained 1700 damage and one gained 170000 damage.
How about going the other way, eh? How about NPCs hitting players with some damage resistance in play, yeah? Say 45%, so 55% damage is done.
500 becomes 275, 225 damage absorbed.
5000 becomes 2750, 2250 damage absorbed.
50000 becomes 27500, 22500 damage absorbed.
Talking about players, how about effective health, eh? Sticking with the 45% resistance?
40000 hull vs. 80000 hull, there's a difference of 40000 effective hull.
72727 hull vs. 145454 hull, there's a difference of 72727 effective hull.
The game's underlying combat mechanics, imho, were simply not designed to deal with where we are today...Hell, they weren't designed, imho, to deal with S6 on...it's a glaring flaw in the system. Can you imagine how it's going to look by the end of the year? What it will be like by the end of next year?
All of the ratios/percentages...scattered throughout the game...there is no chance for Cryptic ever to try to balance a thing as long as that system is in place.
End of the year? We will destroy NPCs just by looking at them.
End of next year? Doom. But then again, there are enough ppl still pumping money in this game, which only carries the name, but not the soul, of star trek.
It is funny thought that many people are going to blame PvP when this gets fixed... when plasma consoles get fixed... and when the neturonic gets fixed.
Cryptic doesn't care about what happens in PvP... in fact when people get face rolled by broken stuff it just leads to them buying the broken stuff themselves.
No like everything else that has been fixed, or "nerfed" in the past... it is always because someone can walk though PvE content and get Purple Rocks and other things Cryptic cares about to quickly.
Blame every DPS PvE kid that posts a Youtube video... its there fault. You know its true...
*Phone Rings*
"Cryptic, Al Here."
"This is Hong Xiao, WTF is up with this Youtube video I am watching right now.... this isn't looking at all like a grind rivera."
But when you look at it this way (if my calc is correct):
My neutronic MKXIV UR base unbuffed is 9167 x [(360/100)TS3 + (50/100) APA + (260/100) CrtD + (50/100)scimbush + (13.2/100) AMP + (9/100) nuk aux off) + (45/100) APO3] =
cca 80k max critical which is consistent with my test in 4man team that didn't had EAP on.
But in some games i saw SAME thing over 200k on max hit and in average range of 130-150k/hit.
Which is also consistent with the fact that more people have used the trait and hit the same target at same time i did.
Here check out this screens from single target from video not debuffed, not buffed and me unbuffed:
with EAP ON 1
with EAP ON 2
with EAP OFF
It clearly shows that in first 2 cases with trait ON damage done is cca 90%-110% of raw
and with the trait OFF it is around 50% of raw on naked hull.
Effective damage is practically doubled on target with 57.5 kin /60.7 all res (Vex) with some minor deviations.
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