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Carriers becoming worthless

themic609themic609 Member Posts: 109 Arc User
Anyone else notice that now nearly every new ship released has a hanger bay, that carriers are becoming worthless? I think they need something more unique about them other then the fact the can use frigate pets. Maybe an extra hanger bay or something? What do you think?
"Helm Prepare Maneuver Circle Target Alpha, Tactical Prepare BFAW3 and mash Spacebar"

Post edited by themic609 on
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  • siriusmusictownsiriusmusictown Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    themic609 wrote: »
    Anyone else notice that now nearly every new ship released has a hanger bay, that carriers are becoming worthless? I think they need something more unique about them other then the fact the can use frigate pets. Maybe an extra hanger bay or something? What do you think?

    IRL actual carriers are amazing pieces of power and machinery. A full carrier should have defense fighters, attack bombers, heavy interceptors, scout / sensor drones, surveillance / command and control shuttles, and resue / healing shuttles. The idea of Frigates on a carrier is just silly (although a TENDER could do this, which is a different vessel). Massive hull and armoring, with multiple WARP drives. Also no cloaking, ever, although chaff clouds, signature reduction, and jamming make sense to a degree (although they are very limited in effect on the massive scale of a carrier).

    To balance this in game will be difficult. Five or six hangars is what I would envision, with a mix of craft being needed to stay alive and do all your roles. Even for a light attack carrier, no less than four carrier hangers on a full carrier, with command specialist BOFFs (LCDR perhaps) and intel specialist BOFF (LT perhaps). That being said, carriers should have FEW weapon banks. Two or three forwards, and one or two aft.

    Carrier small craft should be able to engage the enemy at ranges beyond the engagement range of the parent carrier. That's kind of the point. There's not much point in combat rated small-craft if they can only engage inside the range of your regular-regular beam weapons, or missile projectiles, or point defense. This is very much why the carriers in STO now remind me of cruiser warships with some light attack helicopters embarked. Kind of misses the whole carrier capability entirely.

    The "carriers" we have in game now seem like cruisers with drone and helicopter flight wings, or a jump-jet cruiser/ carrier. Yeah, they do have combat-rated, small-craft available. Yeah, that does give them more flexibility than a cruiser without small-craft.
  • revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Anyone remembering how carriers worked in the beginning? That was ... Well more appropriate... And ridiculously op.
  • dgdolphdgdolph Member Posts: 592 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Gaining 4k dps or even more by simply clicking your hangar bay is just ridiculous. Carriers and pets still need a big nerf.

    Best solution: remove combat pets from the game entirely.
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  • catliketypingcatliketyping Member Posts: 611
    edited February 2015
    Seems like all the fancy new ships have a Cloak now.
    Putting a Hangar on everything has been a trend.
    Everyone seems to have at least one Universal BOff slot.

    I know... Battle Cloaking, all Universal slot, FDC!

    :cool:

    /SMH
    Nessia (KDF Sci)
    IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
  • makburemakbure Member Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Carrier ships seem ok, but they need to bring more T6 carriers into the game. The fighters are a mess, they need to be rebalanced to just work in new content. That is what really makes them worthless.
    -Makbure
  • revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    skollulfr wrote: »
    from what i heard this is only suggested only because its conflating ww2/starwars carrier vs ship combat, with big vs small starship combat of trek.

    Dont know any Star Wars carriers. Star destroyers and venators may Carry some fighters but they are certainly not comparable with the sto carrier.

    It's bsg that had a carrier like spaceship.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,921 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    themic609 wrote: »
    Anyone else notice that now nearly every new ship released has a hanger bay, that carriers are becoming worthless? I think they need something more unique about them other then the fact the can use frigate pets. Maybe an extra hanger bay or something? What do you think?

    I think carriers with only 3/3 could use some umph...The JH and Xindi carriers I think are okay.

    That being said...I honestly think you're selling frigates a little short...they're basically the only carrier type that doesn't just get ripped to shreds in today's heavy aoe centric game and they do good dps in most cases.
  • praxi5praxi5 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    makbure wrote: »
    Carrier ships seem ok, but they need to bring more T6 carriers into the game. The fighters are a mess, they need to be rebalanced to just work in new content. That is what really makes them worthless.

    They were "rebalanced" recently. It was decided that pets needed a damage nerf (and I think there was a corresponding health nerf as well).

    All part of the "How do we make things go slower to feed the metrics?" campaign by Cryptic.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    praxi5 wrote: »
    They were "rebalanced" recently. It was decided that pets needed a damage nerf (and I think there was a corresponding health nerf as well).

    All part of the "How do we make things go slower to feed the metrics?" campaign by Cryptic.

    People forgot that already. The playerbase is so gullible.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • vegeta50024vegeta50024 Member Posts: 2,336 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    themic609 wrote: »
    Anyone else notice that now nearly every new ship released has a hanger bay, that carriers are becoming worthless? I think they need something more unique about them other then the fact the can use frigate pets. Maybe an extra hanger bay or something? What do you think?

    Nearly every ship? If we're talking about Tier 6 ships, I can only think of a few that have had at least one hangar bay.

    Delta Rising Operations pack ships: None of these have a hangar bay. (9 ships)

    Pathfinder Long Range Science Vessel: No bay.

    Delta Expedition Lock box: None of these ships had a hangar bay. (2 ships)

    Breen Sarr Theln Carrier: THIS ship does have two hangar bays.

    Elachi Sheshar Dreadnought: This ship comes with ONE.

    Kobali Samsar Cruiser: No bay at all.

    Vaadwaur lockbox ships: No hangar bays. (2 ships)

    Command Battlecruisers: These ships do come with a hangar bay (9 ships, 3 for each faction)

    Out of 26 total ships that have come out, less than half of them have a hangar bay.

    With that said, I don't see anything wrong with ships including a hangar bay. I honestly prefer ships that have hangar bays.

    TSC_Signature_Gen_4_-_Vegeta_Small.png
  • seiberkagenekoseiberkageneko Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    I think the title is wrong. Carriers are not worthless. They never were worthless and they're not now.

    What they have lost is their -uniqueness-. If you take away the hanger bays, all you have a a big science vessel that handles like a brick. The hangers make it unique among other ships. Tactical ships have cannons, cruisers are tanks, science vessels have all those science abilities, carriers have pets.

    But now so many ships have hangers. The vesta has a hanger. The Gal-x has a hanger. Armitage, Scimitar, and every command cruiser that was just introduced. So now it's a question of what can carriers do that everyone else can't already do better? And the answer is, at the moment, not much. Carriers can be outtanked by cruisers and out DPSed by escorts. And even their science abilities don't stack up now that all science vessels have a second deflector that I wouldn't take away from them, but the carriers are now a gimmick more than a poignant choice.

    But they are still viable, so they're not worthless.
  • farmallmfarmallm Member Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    What carriers I used. They are fun and not worthless. I use them to help level up or during Rep runs to rotate out my ships. To try different methods and ways to take out my targets.
    Enterprise%20C_zpsrdrf3v8d.jpg

    USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
    Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
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  • jarvisandalfredjarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,549 Bug Hunter
    edited February 2015
    dgdolph wrote: »
    Gaining 4k dps or even more by simply clicking your hangar bay is just ridiculous. Carriers and pets still need a big nerf.

    Best solution: remove combat pets from the game entirely.

    That's a stupid idea. The ability to get a meaningful amount of dps that is hard to buff up; that is enough to make a difference in aSTF's and eSTF's; while being nowhere near significant to high-dps'ers, is a great thing for the balance of the game. Pet nerfs only hurt new, non-dps focused, or low skill/resource players, and they are having a hard enough time in end-game content as is.
    SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci

    SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci

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  • atalossataloss Member Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Maybe Cryptic saw the popularity of a hangar bay and decided to add it to the new ships.Technically speaking, every cruiser does have a hangar bay filled with shuttles.

    The only unique feature of a carrier is a second hangar bay and/or a Frigate. Regardless of the suggests posted in this thread, without a method to monetize carriers, Cryptic has no incentive to make drastic changes.

    Since I've started playing this game, I've been very vocal about my willingness to pay zen to unlock my ship. Allowing me to customize the bridge officer slots, tactical slots and hangar bays. I'm willing to pay 1,000 zen per additional hangar bay (in exchange each additional hangar bay permanently removes my tactical slot). Cryptic won't have to worry about making new ships, they can focus on the ships already created.
    One day Cryptic will be free from their Perfect World overlord. Until that day comes, they will continue to pamper the whales of this game, and ignore everyone that isn't a whale.
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  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    skollulfr wrote: »
    the point i was making is that starfighters vs spaceships would be closer to gnats on an elephants TRIBBLE, than what is typically displayed in sci-fi like star wars. where teh fighter vs ship combat was based on ww2 naval engagements instead of the physics that would dictate space combat.

    We can really go into O/T with this but I do love it when fighters in Star Trek get brought up. They never do anything of note. Even in DS9 and its depictions of Peregrines, etc in the Dominion War, you never saw fighters do anything significant but fly around to try and impress someone and get blown up. You never even see fighters even take down something as small as a destroyer or frigate. They didn't even destroy any Bugships, and those things were blowing up left and right, in singles, by the handfuls, when anything larger than a shuttle or freighter shot at them :D
    XzRTofz.gif
  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    For people comparing STO carriers to real world carriers, realize that real world fighters are so dangerous because they have far more range than speed than their home carrier while carrying weapons powerful enough to threaten just about any target. In a universe of warp drives and energy shields though, a starfighter isn't going to be much of a threat to even a frigate let alone a full-size ship-of-the-line. Carriers can be fun to use and the nerf sucks, but logically they probably shouldn't have been in STO to begin with.
  • vesterengvestereng Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    The reason they nerfed carriers way back when, was "pet spam"...

    Unfortuntely, they didn't just nerf the respawn timer, they also nerfed the range.

    So they are not becoming something, they have been in the game nerfed and ruined for a year or so now.

    For example, another major problem with carriers is the broken AI - but your reply from gecko would be "there is no return for us there" and he is right.

    They simply won't backtrace and fix stuff they already sold. Unless it's a current lockbox not working you can count on it being hogwash from here on out.
  • baelogventurebaelogventure Member Posts: 1,002 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Thanks to the great Pet Nerf of Delta Rising, hangar bays are more or less useless.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited February 2015
    dgdolph wrote: »
    Gaining 4k dps or even more by simply clicking your hangar bay is just ridiculous. Carriers and pets still need a big nerf.

    Best solution: remove combat pets from the game entirely.

    Frankly, I don't use carriers, but I was fine when pets got their boost with the release of DR, Too bad it was nerfed. For a sec there, it actually gave pets a purpose. There is so much stuff that has been added that pets just blow up way too quickly.
  • makburemakbure Member Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    People forgot that already. The playerbase is so gullible.


    Since you're not picking up on it, whatever they did, didn't work. It all needs a better balance pass, don't care what they did recently.
    -Makbure
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    themic609 wrote: »
    Anyone else notice that now nearly every new ship released has a hanger bay, that carriers are becoming worthless? I think they need something more unique about them other then the fact the can use frigate pets. Maybe an extra hanger bay or something? What do you think?

    An extra hangar bay is exactly what carriers need over those ships being released with a single hangar bay! Wait, that's what carriers have! Oh well, carry on!

    Seriously though, it's going to come down to what one is doing - what one expects - etc, etc, etc. As well as dealing with each ship having a hangar bay is not the same as other ships with a hangar bay.

    The Marauder is a Star Cruiser with a hangar bay.
    The Scimitar is not a Star Cruiser with a hangar bay.

    What are the actual carriers in the game, yeah?

    Atrox, Fleet Atrox
    Jem'Hadar Dreadnought
    Kar'Fi, Fleet Kar'Fi
    Obelisk, Advanced Obelisk
    Tholian Recluse
    Breen Sarr Theln
    Vo'Quv, Mirror Vo'Quv, Fleet Vo'Quv
    Xindi-Aquatic Narcine Dreadnough

    IMHO, they're not exactly on equal footing there regardless of any other ship getting a hangar or not.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    dgdolph wrote: »
    Gaining 4k dps or even more by simply clicking your hangar bay is just ridiculous. Carriers and pets still need a big nerf.

    Best solution: remove combat pets from the game entirely.

    Hitting SPACE and everything around you dying isn't exactly "skill" play either.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • siriusmusictownsiriusmusictown Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    skollulfr wrote: »
    from what i heard this is only suggested only because its conflating ww2/starwars carrier vs ship combat, with big vs small starship combat of trek.

    Interesting. I cannot quite grok your short hand, my apologies. I assume you are not talking about shuttle craft weekends, but I am missing something about the comment.

    I spent some time flying Klingon carriers, with my team. Some of the team would do scouts and others would do tank/ command and control. That was fun. I would enjoy having that fun back. The current pet nerf makes it irrelevant whether I have pets out or not, since most of my DPS is from other means (TORPS + SCI in my case).

    Two of the Klingon team guys have moved on to other games, saying that they don't care much for STO until they get their carriers back. I still like STO but the pet nerf is sad. I guess that you could ban upgraded carriers in PVP / PVE teams if you think it is OP.
  • hravikhravik Member Posts: 1,203 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Carriers can be fun to use and the nerf sucks, but logically they probably shouldn't have been in STO to begin with.

    How long has it been since logic had anything to do with ships in STO? Kind of a nonstarter argument at this point.
  • themic609themic609 Member Posts: 109 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    I think the title is wrong. Carriers are not worthless. They never were worthless and they're not now.

    What they have lost is their -uniqueness-. If you take away the hanger bays, all you have a a big science vessel that handles like a brick. The hangers make it unique among other ships. Tactical ships have cannons, cruisers are tanks, science vessels have all those science abilities, carriers have pets.

    But now so many ships have hangers. The vesta has a hanger. The Gal-x has a hanger. Armitage, Scimitar, and every command cruiser that was just introduced. So now it's a question of what can carriers do that everyone else can't already do better? And the answer is, at the moment, not much. Carriers can be outtanked by cruisers and out DPSed by escorts. And even their science abilities don't stack up now that all science vessels have a second deflector that I wouldn't take away from them, but the carriers are now a gimmick more than a poignant choice.

    But they are still viable, so they're not worthless.

    If you read the title. I say carriers are Becoming Worthless. I run a vo'qvu and somehow I've made an amazing tank/Heal/moderate DPS build. Thing is with what I notice is that since most new ships include a hanger bay and the fact the pets have been nerfed they are losing the uniqueness. I personally think that as someone said give variation to carriers. Like adding some more hangers but making different variations of pets, such as bombers fighters would revamp carrier play.
    "Helm Prepare Maneuver Circle Target Alpha, Tactical Prepare BFAW3 and mash Spacebar"

  • tehbubbalootehbubbaloo Member Posts: 2,003 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    themic609 wrote: »
    Anyone else notice that now nearly every new ship released has a hanger bay, that carriers are becoming worthless? I think they need something more unique about them other then the fact the can use frigate pets. Maybe an extra hanger bay or something? What do you think?

    youre right. they are far too common now and should be a bit more unique. how about cryptic make them specific to the kdf again?
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