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Buff Engineers... or at least give them a reason to exist.

praxi5praxi5 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
STO is a DPS race. There's no getting around it.

In that race, Engineers far fall behind.

Every single Tactical captain ability boosts your DPS. Science has Photonic Fleet (which, amazingly, somehow manages to do more damage than a good chunk of players) and Sensor Scan. Engineers have... Nadion Inversion? EPS Power Transfer? Both of which are easily replicated on Sci and Tac captains.
  • Rotate Shield Frequency: Huge boost to shield resistance and regeneration. Great in PvP, except now everyone can easily bypass your shields. Useless in PvE since it is relatively easy to keep your shields up. Even if someone has trouble with their shields, they'd be better off using APA/Sensor Scan to mow down enemies anyways.
  • EPS Power Transfer: It is not hard at ALL to get high power in all of your subsystems thanks to Leech and +Power from just about every console and/or gear item available. DOffs even grant the ability to run 2 different EPtX abilities with no downtown. Not to mention OSS...
  • Nadion Inversion: A decent ability, but again, one that is made irreleveant thanks to DOffs, set bonuses, and the general power overcapping mechanic. Yes, it is helpful for full beamboats. But it's usefulness is easily replicated and overshadowed by the overall lack of other DPS boosting abilities.
  • Miracle Worker: Great, but situational at best. However, this doesn't help at all in the current meta of "omgwut" instadeaths before you know what even happened - invisi/mega torps for PvE and the sheer ridiculousness of the stuff introduced in DR for PvP.
  • EngFleet: Just... no.


We either need:

A) content that encourages survival
B) a change in mechanics/balance pass, since even Tac/Escorts can tank
C) buffs/changes to Engineer abilities that will boost their DPS or provide a reason to use them over Sci/Tac
D) All of the above
Post edited by praxi5 on
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Comments

  • birzarkbirzark Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    i am an engineer and i have to say i love playing him. out of all the abilities engi fleet is used the least, i do use the other to some varying degree especially miracle worker with the personal trait so it can proc twice helps being me back from the brink of death. You cant do dps if your dead, so keeping my ship alive helps tremendously.
  • flash525flash525 Member Posts: 5,441 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    They just gave us nine reasons to be an Engineer...
    attachment.php?attachmentid=42556&d=1518094222
  • sunfranckssunfrancks Member Posts: 3,925 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Speak for yourself, my main is an Eng and she does just fine thanks...
    Fed: Eng Lib Borg (Five) Tac Andorian (Shen) Sci Alien/Klingon (Maelrock) KDF:Tac Romulan KDF (Sasha) Tac Klingon (K'dopis)
    Founder, member and former leader to Pride Of The Federation Fleet.
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  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    sunfrancks wrote: »
    Speak for yourself, my main is an Eng and she does just fine thanks...

    Praxi5 isn't saying not to use an Eng...

    both science and tac have useful unique captain powers. All of the engineer powers can be duplicated with either boffs, consoles, or powers. That's the issue. Engineers need something unique for space combat.
  • seiberkagenekoseiberkageneko Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    I've played all three, but my main is an eng and every successive character I've made is an eng, simply because, as far as I'm concerned, it's the best class. We have the best heal in the game, we can run max power all the time, even without an A2B build.

    However, STO is a DPS race, and what the engineers lack is offense. Photonic Fleet is an offensive skill. Attack Pattern Alpha is an offensive skill. Engineers have no offensive skills at all(inherently). But engineers were never meant to be offensive. That's what tactical captains are for. Tacticals overpower. Scientists subvert. Engineers outlast. That's why cruisers are the biggest, the toughest, and the hardest with the largest crews. it's not about the damage, it's about outliving the other guy. And I can do that all day long.
  • timelord79timelord79 Member Posts: 1,852 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    For me Engineers work best to balance the survival shortcomings of escorts and science ships.
    An Engineer in a pure cruiser is a bit redundant, yes.
    As much as a tac is a bit redundant in an escort. At some point there really is no more DPS needed to kill something, it just becomes overkill.
    The Science Captain in a science vessel is the exception here, as he can utilize all 3 ship types very well.

    Personally I prefer engineers in escorts and tacticals in cruisers.
    11750640_1051211588222593_450219911807924697_n.jpg
  • hyperionx09hyperionx09 Member Posts: 1,709 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    They could always buff Boarding Party and Aceton beam.

    Boarding Party may as well have the Doff turrets a permanent fixture, and the Doff instead adds micro-torpedo launchers and faster movement to them. and the rank levels increase the number of launched ships by 1 (before Doubling from the other Doff).

    Aceton Beam might as well be an offensive Deflector-based "lance-like weapon" ability, doing actual damage in addition to its debuff and DoT.

    Both would give the Engineers a little more optional offense, and let Boarding Party somewhat serve as temporary attack shuttles.
  • tk79tk79 Member Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Engineers are fine, it's the game that's wrong.

    This shouldn't be a DPS race. Fix that, and Engineers will be "good" again. (Mind the quotes.)
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  • erei1erei1 Member Posts: 4,081 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    tk79 wrote: »
    Engineers are fine, it's the game that's wrong.

    This shouldn't be a DPS race. Fix that, and Engineers will be "good" again. (Mind the quotes.)
    While true, most of the engi powers are simply worse than what anyone can use through DOFF/set/various items.

    For example, nadion inversion. Reduce energy drain, including from weapons. That was great several years ago, but now, marion+DEM will do better. And you can use a fleet core with 10% drain resistance, or the lobi console.... It's really easy to have weapon energy drain resistance. And everyone can do that.

    EPS ? Well, just use a RMC if you can, or use the absolutely awesome plamonic leech.


    So yeah, the engi powers were completely left behind by the powercreep. While sci and tac powers either stack, and are still good because of that, or are unique (snb for example).


    I'm talking space. On the ground it's fine, mostly. The shield recharge power is average at best, but otherwise it's fine.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • centaurianalphacentaurianalpha Member Posts: 1,150 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Three of my four captains are Engineers, the fourth is a Scientist. AFAIK, these do as well or better than Tacticals in ground actions, and I never saw myself in a pure warship in STO, because there was very little of that role in the Trek canon. While my DPS is probably not all that high, I do well in teams, and my survival time continues to go up as I learn the subtleties of the process mechanics. I haven't even touched Specializations or T6 ships yet (just now breaking in my Breen carriers), and I'm quite happy where I am. :)
    Expendables Fleet: Andrew - Bajoran Fed Engineer Ken'taura - Rom/Fed Scientist Gwyllim - Human Fed Delta Tac
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,919 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Whatever, my Engineer can hold with any Tactical in DPS.

    Engineers have a ton of useful abilities, they're right there on the same level as Tactical Captains. While they may fall just slightly behind in DPS, your staying power helps you make up for it.

    I love my Engineer every bit as much as my Tactical Captain. What I would like to see is some more love given to Science Captains. While I disagree with the opinion that Science is useless, I think they could use a boost.

    Engineers and Tactical Captains have it easy in this game.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • thatcursedwolfthatcursedwolf Member Posts: 1,617 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    praxi5 wrote: »
    • Rotate Shield Frequency: Huge boost to shield resistance and regeneration. Great in PvP, except now everyone can easily bypass your shields. Useless in PvE since it is relatively easy to keep your shields up. Even if someone has trouble with their shields, they'd be better off using APA/Sensor Scan to mow down enemies anyways.
    • EPS Power Transfer: It is not hard at ALL to get high power in all of your subsystems thanks to Leech and +Power from just about every console and/or gear item available. DOffs even grant the ability to run 2 different EPtX abilities with no downtown. Not to mention OSS...
    • Nadion Inversion: A decent ability, but again, one that is made irreleveant thanks to DOffs, set bonuses, and the general power overcapping mechanic. Yes, it is helpful for full beamboats. But it's usefulness is easily replicated and overshadowed by the overall lack of other DPS boosting abilities.
    • Miracle Worker: Great, but situational at best. However, this doesn't help at all in the current meta of "omgwut" instadeaths before you know what even happened - invisi/mega torps for PvE and the sheer ridiculousness of the stuff introduced in DR for PvP.
    • EngFleet: Just... no.


    You do know there are people that don't have the lockbox-only-for-Feds Plasmonic Leech console or Fleet only +Power consoles or multi-million EC doffs?
    This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  • praxi5praxi5 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    rmy1081 wrote: »
    Praxi5 isn't saying not to use an Eng...

    both science and tac have useful unique captain powers. All of the engineer powers can be duplicated with either boffs, consoles, or powers. That's the issue. Engineers need something unique for space combat.

    Exactly this.
    sunfrancks wrote: »
    Speak for yourself, my main is an Eng and she does just fine thanks...

    This is not to say that Engineer's can't do well. They can. But the other Captain abilities give better advantages than any of the Engineering ones.
    flash525 wrote: »
    They just gave us nine reasons to be an Engineer...

    Those Battlecruisers don't have any advantage while being run with an Engineer. A ship class has no relation with Captain type.
    You do know there are people that don't have the lockbox-only-for-Feds Plasmonic Leech console or Fleet only +Power consoles or multi-million EC doffs?

    Sure. But you don't need DOffs to have power drain resistance (2pc Assimilated set) nor +Power (EPtX can be cycled with 100% uptime without DOffs, and from almost every gear set). Further, the Intel and Pilot spec tree provide additional defensive abilities, lessening the value of the Engineer's.
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    This is what I would do:

    RSF: Make it give a "perfect shield" buff where it blocks all bleedthrough like the Steam console while still giving the shield heal and resist. Also allow it to be cast on others.

    EPS: Allow it to increase the max power in each subsystem by +5 along with what it already does.

    Miracle worker: Allow it to be castable on others.

    Nadion Inversion: make it castable on teammates and let it make one immune to all drains for its duration.

    Engineering Fleet: Let the damage resistance be extra 10% damage resistance stackable with what one already has so it doesn't get lost in diminishing returns like it does now.

    This would make the engineer incredibly useful in both PvE and PvP, in solo play and in team play.


    Just my thoughts.
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    I like RSF. It often serves as my only other shield heal aside from Sci Team, and it's nice to have a backup. On the JHDC, my Sci slot is taken up by HE so RSF is actually my Fed's only shield heal.

    Miracle Worker is awesome. Regularly saves my bacon.

    My Engineers reliably do +40k, which is good enough for me to feel like I'm contributing, and that my Engineer isn't gimped.

    Even with a Leech there are times where without Nadion/EPS, I'm not at 125 Power through a FAW. (Marion/DEM ensures 125 Power for the other FAWs.) Something to do with overcapping that Vel'gon and Jena have tried to explain before, but then my eyes glaze over and there's a gap in my memory.
  • rakija879rakija879 Member Posts: 646 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    tk79 wrote: »
    Engineers are fine, it's the game that's wrong.

    This shouldn't be a DPS race. Fix that, and Engineers will be "good" again. (Mind the quotes.)

    I concur engineers are awesome.
    But I play exclusively with my tactical captains because they even more awesome.
  • erei1erei1 Member Posts: 4,081 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    darkjeff wrote: »
    I like RSF. It often serves as my only other shield heal aside from Sci Team, and it's nice to have a backup. On the JHDC, my Sci slot is taken up by HE so RSF is actually my Fed's only shield heal.

    Miracle Worker is awesome. Regularly saves my bacon.

    My Engineers reliably do +40k, which is good enough for me to feel like I'm contributing, and that my Engineer isn't gimped.

    Even with a Leech there are times where without Nadion/EPS, I'm not at 125 Power through a FAW. (Marion/DEM ensures 125 Power for the other FAWs.) Something to do with overcapping that Vel'gon and Jena have tried to explain before, but then my eyes glaze over and there's a gap in my memory.
    We are not saying they are useless, but nadion and EPS are underwhelming for captain skills. Especially compared to tac and sci space powers.

    Honestly, I forget to use them most of the time, and I don't see a difference.

    Miracle worker and RSF are really good, but the other 2 ? Lol yeah.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    I've played all three, but my main is an eng and every successive character I've made is an eng, simply because, as far as I'm concerned, it's the best class. We have the best heal in the game, we can run max power all the time, even without an A2B build.

    A2b isn't ab energy, that's just a bonus....
    rmy1081 wrote: »

    Nadion Inversion: make it castable on teammates and let it make one immune to all drains for its duration..

    They should just reduce the cd on that one....

    As far as I'm concerned.... I have a romulan eng and a romulan tac both on a scimitar.... And the eng is actually a lot better in surviving. I still enjoy that class a lot.
    But when sh*** gets real the damage is just more important. In elite stuff, in pvp ect you have the shirt stick with an eng.

    Still my favorite ground class though....
  • ssbn655ssbn655 Member Posts: 1,894 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    The message that originator of this thread has made clear is they have no clue how to play an Eng. !
    Two of my favorite toons are eng and while my DPS may suffer very slightly I am not a glass cannon like far to many Tac based ships are and can get in the fight and take hits that destroy pure tac toon based ships. Eng's rock!
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited February 2015
    rmy1081 wrote: »
    Nadion Inversion: make it castable on teammates and let it make one immune to all drains for its duration.

    It's already pretty powerful, even I have trouble draining someone when they use Nadion Inversion. Drain immunity is too much, specially now that we have a trait that lowers captain ability cooldowns.
  • cecil08cecil08 Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    I play an engineer (almost exclusively). With things being a DPS race only, it makes the ability to tank, useless.

    And I can tank really well. But since it's all about destroying things before some arbitrary time limit, tanking is useless.

    I would like to see them either buff the skills considerably or run through rethink their stupid DPS race they have going on.
  • praxi5praxi5 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    cecil08 wrote: »
    I play an engineer (almost exclusively). With things being a DPS race only, it makes the ability to tank, useless.

    And I can tank really well. But since it's all about destroying things before some arbitrary time limit, tanking is useless.

    I would like to see them either buff the skills considerably or run through rethink their stupid DPS race they have going on.

    This is, again, what I am trying to say.

    Engineers can, and do, DPS just fine. They are also excellent tanks.

    But tanking is useless. And when it comes to DPS, Engineers can't do anything that Scis and Tacs can't do better.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Engineers are more than fine, if you know how to handle them. Of course you dont know if you are a third-rated player, but then even a buff wouldnt help you.
  • aelogriaaelogria Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Ok.

    My main capt is an engineer. That character does 16k dps without trying or using the pirate signal for extra ships. And I survive. So I dont think Engineers need a buff. If I am really trying I can get between 22k to 25k.

    Its more about loadouts with an Engineer. Im running the Benthan Cruiser with all tier XIV weapons, Undine rep space set, etc. Even before that and being in a Jem Destroyer I was getting around 11k without any effort and using dual heavies upfront with turrets and laser pointers in the back.

    I also dont die. And use Miracle Worker a lot. Which is useful if you have the space trait that gives you a double dip every 5 minutes.

    You can survive and do a decent amount of DPS in an Engineer. Its just a matter of researching builds and spending dilithium to upgrade weapons and such.



    @Desdecardo since 2008.
  • revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    aelogria wrote: »
    Ok.

    My main capt is an engineer. That character does 16k dps without trying or using the pirate signal for extra ships. And I survive. So I dont think Engineers need a buff. If I am really trying I can get between 22k to 25k.

    Its more about loadouts with an Engineer. Im running the Benthan Cruiser with all tier XIV weapons, Undine rep space set, etc. Even before that and being in a Jem Destroyer I was getting around 11k without any effort and using dual heavies upfront with turrets and laser pointers in the back.

    I also dont die. And use Miracle Worker a lot. Which is useful if you have the space trait that gives you a double dip every 5 minutes.

    You can survive and do a decent amount of DPS in an Engineer. Its just a matter of researching builds and spending dilithium to upgrade weapons and such.

    Again, as many pointed out already:
    Of course you can make decent damage with an ent.
    but a tac with the exact same load out will ALWAYS make significantly more damage.

    And the content is not gated to tanking. It's about damage. You don't reach the optionals with tanking, you get it with killing stuff fast. And everyone else is better with that.

    You may survive longer, but who cares since death isn't really a problem, also the stuff that one hit kills a tac will also one hit kill an eng.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited February 2015

    And the content is not gated to tanking. It's about damage. You don't reach the optionals with tanking, you get it with killing stuff fast.


    The damage an engineer can do is far more than enough to do any given optional while tanking thrice the incoming damage/dps.
  • revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    woodwhity wrote: »
    The damage an engineer can do is far more than enough to do any given optional while tanking thrice the incoming damage/dps.

    Yeah you are probably one of the people who feels he does "enough" when the team dealing actual damage does the job for him.
    Never mind. Believe what ever you want, don't let numbers get in between that.
  • sussethraisussethrai Member Posts: 137 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    You may survive longer, but who cares since death isn't really a problem, also the stuff that one hit kills a tac will also one hit kill an eng.

    BWAAAHAHAHAHAHHAAA! *wipes tears of laughter from eyes*
    My job as an engineer isn't necessarily to bring the rain. My job is to p*** the enemy off so badly that he ignores the tac coming up his tailpipe with an alpha strike, and keep that tac alive after. Remember TOS, where Kirk distracted the Doomsday Machine? I'm a fiddler crab, and it's fiddler crab season. Luckily this fiddler crab is very hard to crack, and I can take almost anything the other guy can dish out, including invisotorps of doom. Hear that, Vaduwaur Heavy Artillery ships? I mock you!
    "Susse-thrai" had been the name bestowed upon her, half in anger, half in affection, by her old crew on Bloodwing; the keen-nosed, cranky, wily old she-beast, never less dangerous than when you thought her defenseless, and always growing new teeth far back in her throat to replace the old ones broken in biting out the last foe's heart.
    Romulans: left one homeworld, lost another, third time's the charm?
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    I think most of you are all missing the point. It's not that people cant run good engineers. I run 4 and do fine. It's about the captain powers and how they're not unique to the class anymore. I can find a console, doff, power, etc for each space engineering power and duplicate it which means I can be a science or tac captain and do everything an engineer does. The same doesn't work the other way (nor would I want it). Engineers need something that separates them from the other two careers.
  • roadghostroadghost Member Posts: 394 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    I log most of my combats so I know my Eng does somewhere in the neighborhood of "quite nice thank you" dps, 20k using league settings in ISA. Usually #1 in pugs, only time I'm below #2 is in ISA when a group of Scimitars makes an appearance. I come in first in CE about 20% of the time, extremely rarely do I not get a top 3 bonus. And this is using all Mk XII purple gear. I'm saving up my Omega Tech's so I can dump them all at once on my weapons/consoles and be one of those "I'm here to melt your face" 30k dps guys.

    I love Miracle worker with Fleet Support III. Usually have to make an effort to let my hull get below 50% while tanking the gate in ISA, then call in another ship, miracle heel myself a couple of times and finish the map.

    I do suffer in speed runs, when the aforementioned Scimitar horde shows up. But hey, a 60 second ISA... yeah I can live with being low dps guy for that.
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