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Forums > Home› Star Trek Online General Discussion

Slight Harry Kim Canon Discrepency

phantrosityphantrosity Member Posts: 239 Arc User
edited January 2015 in Star Trek Online General Discussion
Slight problem with the latest featured episode - while it's a bit confusing, the Harry Kim that got back to the Alpha Quadrant was the original, in a ship full of copies.

Not the other way around.
Post edited by phantrosity on

Comments

  • crowley875crowley875 Member Posts: 187 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Actually, the original Kim was thrown in space with that hull breach. The damaged Voyager was the original one, The copied one selfdestructed at the end of the episode, and the copy Janeway send copy Kim with Copy Naomi Wildman back to the original ship.

    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Harry_Kim

    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Deadlock_(episode)
  • gavinrunebladegavinruneblade Member Posts: 3,894 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    phantrosity wrote: »
    Slight problem with the latest featured episode - while it's a bit confusing, the Harry Kim that got back to the Alpha Quadrant was the original, in a ship full of copies.

    Not the other way around.

    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Harry_Kim
    Note the section 2372:
    the damage also caused the infant Naomi Wildman to die in her failed delivery operation. The Harry Kim from the damaged Voyager was killed after being blown through a hull breach. When the undamaged ship was forced to self-destruct after being overrun by Vidiian forces, that ship's Harry Kim took the infant Naomi Wildman and transferred to the other ship. (VOY: "Deadlock")

    This episode marks the death of the "original" Harry Kim, who is replaced by a duplicate. The "real" Kim's body is apparently left to float through space. Though it may have been retrieved at some point off screen
  • walshicuswalshicus Member Posts: 1,314 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I thought the episode had *both* Kims as equally original. Just like Thomas and William Riker both have equal claim to being the original.
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  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,574 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    It must also be mentioned that the Harry who is alive is a direct copy, just as Thomas Riker is a direct copy of William Riker in every way. What isn't mentioned is that as much as you can say they are copies, you can't disprove that they aren't the originals in either case.

    Edit: I'm sure that there was a slight phase differential on the quantum level or something with regard to Harry. I'll have to watch the episode again.

    2nd Edit: Yes it was a phase differential. The only argument for which was the original is the fact the Vidians locked onto the Voyager who wasn't damaged so it was the damaged, 'out of phase' Voyager that was the 'copy'. Therefore the Harry who died was in fact the copy and the Harry and Naomi that crossed over were the only originals who actually made it home.
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  • hfmuddhfmudd Member Posts: 881 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    There's a scene in Farscape toward the end of an episode where one of the main characters gets duplicated. It shows him playing rock-paper-scissors with himself, and tying (throwing the same sign) every single time. It's implied they've been at this for a while.

    In situations like this, "original" becomes what engineers refer to as "one of your conundrums of philosophy".

    (The two Crichtons end up going separate ways, with a split party, and by the time they meet up again, their experiences have caused them to diverge enough that they no longer tie at RPS.)
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  • drreverenddrreverend Member Posts: 459 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Harry was killed more than a few times over the course of Voyager.
  • gavinrunebladegavinruneblade Member Posts: 3,894 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    leemwatson wrote: »
    It must also be mentioned that the Harry who is alive is a direct copy, just as Thomas Riker is a direct copy of William Riker in every way. What isn't mentioned is that as much as you can say they are copies, you can't disprove that they aren't the originals in either case.

    Edit: I'm sure that there was a slight phase differential on the quantum level or something with regard to Harry. I'll have to watch the episode again.

    2nd Edit: Yes it was a phase differential. The only argument for which was the original is the fact the the Vidians locked onto the Voyager who wasn't damaged so it was the damaged Voyager that was the 'copy'. Therefore the Harry who died was in fact the copy and the Harry that crossed over was the only original who actually made it home.

    No, the argument for which is "original" is that the whole opening shows how one got damaged and THAT ship is treated as primary by the episode and it is the one that survives.

    Also, both harry and Naomi came from the destroyed voyager. The prime Naomi died too.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,574 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    gavinruneblade wrote: »
    No, the argument for which is "original" is that the whole opening shows how one got damaged and THAT ship is treated as primary by the episode and it is the one that survives.

    Also, both harry and Naomi came from the destroyed voyager. The prime Naomi died too.

    I would have to disagree. Just because we had no idea up until the reveal that there was two Voyagers, the fact the episode concentrated on the damaged Voyager doesn't make it necessarily the original. Remember, that the incident simultaneously created 2 versions. Throughout the episode, neither Voyager claims it either and both crews assume the other is the copy. It's all a matter of perspective. You must also consider that the damaged voyager was almost undetectable by the Vidians in that particular 'universe' except for the 'phase differential'.
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  • gavinrunebladegavinruneblade Member Posts: 3,894 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    leemwatson wrote: »
    I would have to disagree. Just because we had no idea up until the reveal that there was two Voyagers, the fact the episode concentrated on the damaged Voyager doesn't make it necessarily the original. Remember, that the incident simultaneously created 2 versions. Throughout the episode, neither Voyager claims it either and both crews assume the other is the copy. It's all a matter of perspective. You must also consider that the damaged voyager was almost undetectable by the Vidians in that particular 'universe' except for the 'phase differential'.

    From a narrative structure that is irrelevant. Neither voyager switched universes. In their own universe one voyager self destructed. In a second universe one voyager survived and eventually reached earth. Within its own universe that ship was prime. And it returned to its own earth, which is not the same earth that the harry Kim and Naomi came from.

    Whether or not it truly was the prime universe only the script writers know. Though if the script does refer to "janeway#1" and "Janeway #2" as indicated on memory alpha it would be a smoking gun which the writers considered prime and which secondary. As I don't have a copy of the script, I dunno.
  • equinox976equinox976 Member Posts: 2,305 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    phantrosity wrote: »
    Slight problem with the latest featured episode - while it's a bit confusing, the Harry Kim that got back to the Alpha Quadrant was the original, in a ship full of copies.

    Not the other way around.

    I stopped listening to Harry Kim the moment he told me he was 'disapointed with me'. Really?

    Harry Kim?

    Disapointed?

    With ME?

    HARRY KIM?

    AYFK?

    FUBAR.
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Does it matter who's the original or copy? You all really think that surviving Janeway would do anything else EXCEPT treat Harry as a copy?

    (By Janeway I do mean SFDebris' parody-Janeway, and thus only mean this post in a purely joking manner.)
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