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How to fix the class balance
johnsteward
Member Posts: 1,073 Arc User
i thought it might be a good idea to collect sone ideas for class balance fixes while they are preparing for the anniversary event.
Why is it a problem?
Before dr engs were king on ground now with delta T5 its tacs.
Not sure what scis are good at.. Maybe subnuke in pvp. Guess thats it.
Basically tacs are best class right now for everything. I find that quite sad as i have some engs and scis i like to play but whatever i do it feels bad cause i know my tacs are better at it.
My personal solution:
Give engs/scis their own apa to bring them up a bit at least in space.
How?
Redesign nadion inversion or whatever this eng skill for drain resist is called and make it instead remove the weapon power cap for 30secs.
Redesign the scatter field to instead boost sci skills by 100, reduce sci cooldowns by 50%, increase exotic dmg by 100% for 30secs.
This way they still do "their thing" but they get a nice dmg boost ability like apa.
Tacs still have gdf to be even better and tacs need no gear/skills to match their apa as i just works with everything but at least the other classes have something nice too.
Also NI and SF are completely worthless/unused now anyways.
This is obviously just my idea, feel free to post your own or hate on mine whatever you like.
Why is it a problem?
Before dr engs were king on ground now with delta T5 its tacs.
Not sure what scis are good at.. Maybe subnuke in pvp. Guess thats it.
Basically tacs are best class right now for everything. I find that quite sad as i have some engs and scis i like to play but whatever i do it feels bad cause i know my tacs are better at it.
My personal solution:
Give engs/scis their own apa to bring them up a bit at least in space.
How?
Redesign nadion inversion or whatever this eng skill for drain resist is called and make it instead remove the weapon power cap for 30secs.
Redesign the scatter field to instead boost sci skills by 100, reduce sci cooldowns by 50%, increase exotic dmg by 100% for 30secs.
This way they still do "their thing" but they get a nice dmg boost ability like apa.
Tacs still have gdf to be even better and tacs need no gear/skills to match their apa as i just works with everything but at least the other classes have something nice too.
Also NI and SF are completely worthless/unused now anyways.
This is obviously just my idea, feel free to post your own or hate on mine whatever you like.
Post edited by johnsteward on
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Comments
What are you basing this on. Today I fought a engineer romulan who vaped me in his scim, thereafter I learned but he could still chunk my narcines health (t5u) to 40%. No. Engines are fine when used right. You wanna boost sci skills by100 and exotic damage by 100%? Are you trying to make tbr hit 75k+ a pulse? LOL no. All careers are balanced long as you know how to use em right. Only reason all or most think TAC wins is because its easiest to use:point and shoot. Engis and scis require more skill and or planning but can be equally or more op
I'm one of the most dangerous engi's you'll ever find, and here's what I see:
First, if by removing the weapon power cap, you mean the hardcap of 125, that would be so stupidly hilariously op, that no. If you mean the softcap, whatever your overcap is, it basically does.
And scattering field is just...wth no.
Tac's have dps. That's their job. Engi's have power levels and life, and they do that pretty great. Sci's have debuffing and pets, and that's their job. They're pretty decently balanced in space, you're just complaining that a spoon doesn't cut things as well as a knife.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
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Build questions? Look here!
But on ground, Engineers were nuked the moment those mines were given an activation timer. A Tactical can come wipe away the entire group of Borg before my mines ever activate. And that makes my mine kit completely useless. And to make matters worse, Borg have finally assimilated the ability to run, so they simply run away from my mines before the mines have a chance to activate. If I expect to use my mine kit at all, I need to team up with a Tactical who has a shotgun to push the Borg BACK onto my mines.
My Ship Builds: USS Conqueror, HMS Victorious, HMS Concord, ISS Queen Elizabeth, Black Widow III
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And if your eng is your most powerful char you propably dont have a similar equipped tac to really test with. Or you dont parse at all in which case your opiniok is worthless anyways because they wouldnt be based on facts.
Thing is if dou check the league table its quite easy to see how engs and scis do and its about 1/2 at best more like 1/3rd of what a tac does. What did your super-engs parse at in isa?
I suspect something like 10-20k max?
Just because you have no tacs equipped or cant fly the ships right doesnt mean engs are fine
See my signature. I have a tank, doing 65k dps. You can check CLR if you don't believe me. Trust me, my engi's plenty fine.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Sci on the ground are hilariously overpowered, if you're doing it right. Endothermic Induction Field + Electrograv (with "phasic instability") + Neutronic Radiation + Split beam = AOE death. I personally find tacs to be pretty meh on the ground - I can get them working fairly well, but nowhere near as much fun.
As for in space...
I will concede that this would make Scis competitive with spike-damage Tacs. And by "competitive", I mean "game-breakingly overpowered". With a well-built Scryer, this would mean the target would be getting hit with Grav Well 3, TBR 2 (with Graga Mal), EWP, Isometric Charges, Isokinetic Cannons with 500-600+ PartGens; doing double damage on top of their normal crazy output. ALL forms of damage which ignore shields. In PvE, this would be a game breaker. In PvP....well, sci cheese already rules there, so no significant change.
I too have eng and sci toons collecting dust, but more because I don't particularly like those play styles. Sci especially with the death of PvP in DR, but you can still do astronomical amounts of exotic damage with them and increasing it anymore would be even more ridiculous. As for eng toons, I honestly don't have too much experience with them, but given their captain abilities to tank and have great power levels everything on your tray can be offense oriented.
TL;DR = It's a broken give and take between the captain types, but sharing captain abilities is def not the solution.
That is part of the problem. Unless you require the power BEFORE you attack something, a simple console can solve all your power needs - no need to spec into any engineering skills for power or use any engineering specific traits for that. The power-management aspect of the engineer is one of the things that is quite redundant thanks to a single console.
And in that, Tacs will rule when all we base that on is ISA. lol
Sure there is Engies that can show nice numbers. But anyone who can do those kinda numbers could still do way better as a tac. IF all you care about is how high a number you can get.
And it's the players driving this since half the talk in Local/Fleet/etc. is all About whats better for DPS? this or that?
I got my Engies above 30K, my tac is above 40. And I have to try alot harder to get the Engies score. lol
EDIT: That said I love my Engies way more then my Tacs. And I hate Tacs on ground, but LOVE playing ground with my Engies.
I see why your complaining, you like things the way they are Tac on top in Dps sci and Eng in the rear in PVE
Ive saw your galaxy and parced it at 40k Dps ( your parce ) and saw you get poped and respawn at ISA..............In a Galaxy
Take off the plasma Doping what do you got ?...That's what I thought marion doff epic antiprotons...yawn yep yep and I bet you were on a Tac
Put your eng in the galaxy whats the DPS ?
Put your Tac in it whats the DPS ?
Put your Sci in it whats the DPS ?
The Tac is doing x2 or more the DPS
The TAC is doing 2.5x more or more than the science
Remember use the same space duty officers an all 3 toons the same rep traits the same gear
The OP is right about the DPS
You are .....................wrong.................
Anyone with all 3 toons and a common ship knows your wrong and they know Tacs are king of DPS
the only people who might buy into your misinformation are people who do not have all 3 toons of the same race and a common ship and yes the 3 toons need to be the same race and t5 or t6 ships
The reason I say T5 ships so a romulan isn't brought in in tier 4 or lower ships to skew the results
Remember do the tests solo at argala because everyone is aware of the map.....this is a character test ive done many many times not a team test where results are buffed by the team
TAC wins hands down not even a compitition
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I think everyone in some fashion everyone uses an emergency power to subsystem ability, but when engineers use it with the trait( no specing required, just a trait we get as an engineer) they get a boost to all subsystems, which i think is far more substantial than a console.
Also about engineers only doing 10-20k tops, I'm doing 30k minimum in my phantom and my engi power abilities combines with OSS3 make my ship something to be reckoned with.
Problem fixed....
Roleplayers can still roll them. Not like roleplayers are going to be breaking any dps records even with a tac...
Well your 65k was propably with tac fleets running and its your max record and not a mean value. I do 100k even in pugs and record run for beams is at about 170k or
More if we get to it without laggs. So thats almost three times what your super eng did.
I understand that you might be happy with that but if you start comparing you'll see what I said is true: engs and scis loose out.
And to the rest well go isa and do your 100k + run with your sci stuff on sci toon and we talk again otherwise i habe to assume you have no clue what tacs can do or massivly over estimate what your sci does.
Again 30k is nothing. Basic math tells me your 30k are less then 1/3rd of my personal record, almost 1/4th. If compared with beam dps record its almost 1/6th.
I dont understand how anyone can talk about engs being balanced fine when they just get completely declassed by tacs.
First off all I'm mainly talking space. And i have no clue who you are talking about but with the exception of maybe hge tacs rule ground or are at least equal once they have delta T5.
Instead of repeating stuff others said ages ago or posting how great your personal heros are maybe form an opinion by yourself and post that one?
Just a thought^^
My bad I didn't realise you were talking about solely about space, my fault for speed reading. But in space yes Tac's in a WELL built ship and with a competent pilot will always come out on top when it comes to outright brute force, Ill concede that to you.
But to be perfectly honest I've lost count of the amount of times and threads I've heard and seen people complaining about how the game favours tac officers. The game is what cryptic have made it. If you feel hard done by as an engineer, simple solution is to stop making them along with science officers. Or if you feel an overwhelming need to play as tank, I respectfully suggest you try another game. Because DPS makes Cryptic money, simple as that, and if it makes them money they'll continue down that path.
Well, the engineer gets you 10 on 3 subsystems? Said console gets you like 20-30 on all subsystems. If you want to push it, it does even more. Once a tac or sci slaps that on, they pretty much got that aspect of the engineer in their pocket and all the goodness of tac (or the mediocrity of sci). :P
PvP balance should be everything for the Dev's. The PvE should then be balanced around the PvP capabilities. All the PvE mobs are currently just useless sponges for us to beat on (in space at least). Give them proper loadouts, and skill sets, hell even give them randomised captains suiting the ship style. Would make defensive abilities useful again.
As an example, I ran through a Cure Advanced the other day on my Main toon in a Scimitar. I never even needed to use the shield or hull heals once. That was a competent team with 3 of 5 doing around 18-25K DPS, the other two I don't know due to combatlog limitations.
The NPC's need some serious work to give them some skill and allow those with skill to feel accomplishment when they do succeed.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
No you didn't. I do not, and have never, owned a galaxy class. Any statements you make based on me flying a galaxy are completely wrong.
I'm not saying that Tac's aren't the king of dps. I'm saying that engi's and sci's are completely viable and strong, it just happens that not everything that they have directly buffs dps.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Nope. My second highest dps run was a run with coordinated TF/IF, sure. My highest run was a run where we had no pre-game coordination, other than recruitment (LF4M ISA, in my fleet's channel), WFP, and reading up. Sure, it's a max. Average on that ship is something like 58k.
I get that you've got 100k, that's great.
Oh, and I might have mentioned, it's a tank. It's not a pure dps ship. It's not meant to be a pure dps ship. But when it's consistently well above 50k, and pulling aggro, and living, I really don't need any more to my name.
And I've never mentioned any sci captain, do I have some imposter running around flying a galaxy and dying in it and making claims of being a 100k+ sci captain?
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Is the mine activation a recent change? I haven't played ground in a while and mines were my go-to ability.
And then there is SF which seems to be made for photonic fleet, it seriously improves it's survivability, it's also handy when I'm about to take a spike in my Nova, SF+PH+HE+TSS+Sci Fleet allows for the absorption of upwards of 200k damage spikes in a hull of just over 34k (with one fleet neutronium and one fleet RCS with AllRes)
So yeah, while these don't contribute directly to dps, when used in the right combinations they can be used to indirectly benefit dps
Seems like one my alts/personalities has gone rogue and is running amok.
Couldn't say for Elite...but other stuff doesn't even require that much. After they nerfed the Advanced, the increase from what was required for pre-DR Elite to DR Advanced is just a miniscule amount.
Personal experience, looking at the parses, the majority of ISA fails are not from a lack of DPS but a lack of target selection...chasing butterflies. The group has way more than enough DPS to finish off the three other Gens and the Trans before the Nanites get there...but folks are off shooting at the original Spheres or those that spawn at the Trans - instead of taking out the Gens and the Trans. It's a brutal trip, how many of those 3-5% fails should simply never have happened...would never have happened...if more than 2-3 folks were actually firing on the Trans.
As for the overall topic, wanting to change things so Tacs fire red AP, Eng yellow AP, and Sci blue AP wouldn't really be addressing Career balance...imho.
Science is great in PvP, so are Tacs, while engineers fit best in healing role. Problem is they don't utilise this solid foundation to recreate a PvP environment adaptable from the story. People aren't stupid, NPCs are not going to keep you hooked to the game.
Look at War Thunder, PvP is what it is all about, awesome battles; just you and your piloting skills while trying both evade fire and point guns to the target; historical battles are PvP based where players fill up faction slots and recreate a WWII theatre.
STO isn't doing anything like that. There is excessive grind to do in PvE, to get awarded of something that's likely going to PvE. This is what is driving STO to decline, and it's sad. Things weren't like this one year ago. In S8 PvP was healthy and worth playing, in one year they destroyed everything.
Going back to War Thunder now, gonna fight with friends.
Say you had an Apple, an Orange, and a Banana. I don't want the Orange and Banana to be an Apple. But if it's a really good Apple, then I'd want a really good Orange, and a really good Banana.
Course, I don't believe we should make any suggestions at this point on how to address that Orange and Banana. Cause one can look at how many of those suggestions ended up being some other new item that could not only be used by the Orange or Banana, but the Orange, Banana, and Apple.
Which, imho, has only made it that much more frustrating...