Science Ships Useless

forcemajeure
forcemajeure Member Posts: 208 Arc User
Have a lot of captains. Fly a wide range of ships and loadouts to see how different aspects of the game work.

One of my favorite ships, based purely on looks, is the Research Science Vessel (the one with the force-field bubble front).

I would dearly love to fly this ship into the end game (upgraded to the fleet retro version, I guess), but it appears I would essentially be crippling myself to do so.

As I look at all the Science ship options, the thing that strikes me is that none of them (with the possible exception of the Dysons or the Wells) remain even close to competitive.

Essentially, for any science vessel you can choose a Carrier (or flight deck carrier) that is a significantly stronger choice. You give up a little shield and turn rate for more hull, same weapon loadout, plus 1 or 2 hangars. Granted, hangar pets ain't much, but they sure beat nothing.

Does anyone fly science vessels that AREN'T carriers/flight decks as their end game ship?

If so, why?

I suppose if the secondary deflector (or a secondary shield or something) option was added to T5 and up science vessels, that might give them enough of an edge to be worth flying. Otherwise I don't see the point.
Post edited by forcemajeure on
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Comments

  • heckgoblin
    heckgoblin Member Posts: 685
    edited January 2015
    Science ships of all sorts rock in PVP.
    I AM WAR.
  • generalmoco
    generalmoco Member Posts: 1,634
    edited January 2015
    Science ships are the best tankers in game... wacha talken bout willis?
  • anazonda
    anazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Sci is, and always has been OP, if flown by the right captain.
    Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
    Let me put the rumors to rest: it's definitely still the C-Store (Cryptic Store) It just takes ZEN.
    Like Duty Officers? Support effords to gather ideas
  • js26568
    js26568 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I fly a Wells and a Voth Palisade Science Vessel. They're my most fun ships to fly. If you can't blow stuff up with them then I'm afraid you're doing it wrong.

    Try posting your science ship builds in the right part of the forum and people will help you beef them up a bit.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Free Tibet!
  • jarvisandalfred
    jarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,549 Bug Hunter
    edited January 2015
    One of my good friends flies a 60k sci ship as a sci captain. I know dozens of people flying 10k+ science ships that do monstrous amounts of terrifying science, such as 'drain Jane', who can strip the shields off of even a voth dreadnought.

    Sci isn't useless, that's like calling feds useless because it looks harder to get dps with them. And then you look at it, and realize the feds hold the all-time dps record. It's just that science takes some skill and build knowledge to become effective.
    SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci

    SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci

    Tacs are overrated.

    Game's best wiki

    Build questions? Look here!
  • noroblad
    noroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Have a lot of captains. Fly a wide range of ships and loadouts to see how different aspects of the game work.

    One of my favorite ships, based purely on looks, is the Research Science Vessel (the one with the force-field bubble front).

    I would dearly love to fly this ship into the end game (upgraded to the fleet retro version, I guess), but it appears I would essentially be crippling myself to do so.

    As I look at all the Science ship options, the thing that strikes me is that none of them (with the possible exception of the Dysons or the Wells) remain even close to competitive.

    Essentially, for any science vessel you can choose a Carrier (or flight deck carrier) that is a significantly stronger choice. You give up a little shield and turn rate for more hull, same weapon loadout, plus 1 or 2 hangars. Granted, hangar pets ain't much, but they sure beat nothing.

    Does anyone fly science vessels that AREN'T carriers/flight decks as their end game ship?

    If so, why?

    I suppose if the secondary deflector (or a secondary shield or something) option was added to T5 and up science vessels, that might give them enough of an edge to be worth flying. Otherwise I don't see the point.

    Are we playing the same game?
    Carriers (defined: has 2 hangar bays) give up 1 particle gen (science) console to gain pets. Pets vary from total garbage (atrox) to mega-leetzor (recluse).

    The t6 carrier is very good, because its t6, it supports intel, and having OSS giving 160 or more whatever power level aux reaches is pretty awesome. This is an issue of it being a t6 ship. If they actually put out a t6 sci ship, it would be even stronger for sci skills, but lack the pets. The feds may have one, they have like 10 t6 ships, I did not look at them.

    The dyson has (if you pick the right one) 5 sci consoles AND a passive ability to up exotic damage. That is pretty hard to beat. I do not know if all sci ships get this exotic passive or not, but a console and this passive put it above a carrier significantly.

    I am currently torn between my old TSABC and the breen carrier. The carrier is a spike damage nightmare --- it can come in and drop heavy weapon dps, heavy sci dps, and strong pet dps (torp spread is pretty rough ... my elites drop 12 torps all at once for a lot of damage). After that my skills all go on cooldown and I can't do jack for 10 seconds, then spike again... meh. The BC is rock solid... 8 guns doing constant high dps, with sci skills spiking it as needed. Neither are true sci ships, but they "forgot' to add any useful ones for the other factions, so I use what I can.
  • baudl
    baudl Member Posts: 4,047 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    science ships require more skill and more experiance to build and fly...they have high potential, but they use entirely different mechanics than the rest, and need a completely different approach than cruisers and escorts.
    It is also more difficult to sift through the garbage sci ships. A complete bullship boff layout at first glance can have a huge potential with an unconventional build...cruisers and escorts are more straight forward. Would never suggest a sci ship to a beginner.
    Go pro or go home
  • fatman592
    fatman592 Member Posts: 1,207 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Get the Salonae deflector and embassy part gen consoles, get the Particle Manipulator trait, use skills like gravity well and tractor beam repulsors, pilot well. You'll be as competitive as any lazy circle FAW spammer.
  • woodwhity
    woodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Does anyone fly science vessels that AREN'T carriers/flight decks as their end game ship?


    I think a 20k scryer/dauntless/Reconnaissance Science Vessel (in pugs) should be able to classify at that, but for that you have to think outside the box ;)
  • farseeridranel
    farseeridranel Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Let's see, sci vessel compared to carriers:

    Science quite shines due to the particle manipulator trait (at the moment). Science vessel offer 5 science consoles slots vs. a maximum of 4 (?) on a carrier -> on a science vessel you can fully focus on science abilities.

    Science vessel are smaller and more maneuverable than the big sluggish moving carriers. That is mostly a question of play style I would say. I prefer the "middle" speed of science vessel.

    Science vessel can have massive amounts of shields.

    Sensor analysis for more damage and healing on science vessel.

    Subsystem targeting -> 4 extra abilities for free (some carriers have that, too)

    Soon, secondary deflectors on all science vessel -> more skills, more damage or healing

    Science vessel don't have to deal with squishy pets (I think of the obelisk drones for example that seem to die like flies)

    Most carriers are from boxes or C-store. Only the breen sar theln is "free" for all.



    From the other side:

    Some pets are extremely strong/useful. The breen raiders for example or the yellow stone runabouts.

    Some carriers offer lots of tac slots and can deal high amounts of damage by themself (Karfi, Narcine)

    Carriers can have huge hulls (e.g. >100 K on the obelisk).

    Carriers are big, that might help, if people have complexes or so.

    There is quite some variety in carriers. There are tac-, science and engineering heavy versions.
  • mustrumridcully0
    mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,958 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Science Vessels have good maneuverability and access to an assortment of abilities that can be quite powerful. But unfortunately, there is also a lot of stinkers among them. If you know which high level powers are good (Gravity Well, Tractor Beam Repulsors), you can make powerful and fun builds with them.

    Especially GW and TBR can be often very important in STFs, because they help you control the enemy and stop him from reaching locations he isn't supposed to reach. If you got a Mega DPS team, you don't need it, but if you got a good science crowd control build, you don't need that Mega DPS either.

    Secondary Deflectors are now on Tribble, and they seem to focus (2 out of 3) on adding damage potential to Science Vessels, which may be what they need the most, because the CC is solid.

    Of course, it would be great if they could buff some of the weaker powers like Photonic Officer, Feedback Pulse, Scramble Sensors or Viral Matrix.

    noroblad wrote: »
    Are we playing the same game?
    Carriers (defined: has 2 hangar bays) give up 1 particle gen (science) console to gain pets. Pets vary from total garbage (atrox) to mega-leetzor (recluse).

    The t6 carrier is very good, because its t6, it supports intel, and having OSS giving 160 or more whatever power level aux reaches is pretty awesome. This is an issue of it being a t6 ship. If they actually put out a t6 sci ship, it would be even stronger for sci skills, but lack the pets. The feds may have one, they have like 10 t6 ships, I did not look at them.
    .
    What is wrong with the 3 Tier 6 Science Vessels we already have?

    We already have the Scryer, the Dauntless and the Pathfinder. All 3 are good Science Vessels.

    If the rumours are true, a Tier 6 Vesta will also come... It's actually crazy how many Science Vessels have been added with Delta Rising.... I only got two science Feds, how am I supposed to play these out all?
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • scurry5
    scurry5 Member Posts: 1,554 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    My main character is a Sci that pilots Sci ships almost exclusively. I've flown the Wells, Nova, Mirror Nova, Pathfinder, DSSV, Scryer, Vesta, Orb Weaver and Dyson.

    At no point was I useless. Even the DSSV does about 10K DPS.

    The additional hull of a carrier is fairly pointless in STFs and most PvE content. Carriers also lack Sensor Analysis, which is a source of additional damage for large targets. They will also lack Secondary Deflectors. Furthermore, I personally dislike having to rely on the finicky and fragile pets for the majority of my DPS.

    I could see science vessels being inferior to certain carriers in certain PvE situations, but they are by no means useless.

    In PvP, there isn't much contest. Mobility is much more important, in order to get into arc for Sci abilities and evade offensive debuffs/damage. Pets are arguable - they can pack potent debuffs, but they can be easily shut down with sufficient AoE.
  • noroblad
    noroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited January 2015



    What is wrong with the 3 Tier 6 Science Vessels we already have?

    We already have the Scryer, the Dauntless and the Pathfinder. All 3 are good Science Vessels.

    If the rumours are true, a Tier 6 Vesta will also come... It's actually crazy how many Science Vessels have been added with Delta Rising.... I only got two science Feds, how am I supposed to play these out all?

    Im sorry, which of those can the kdf and rom factions use again?
  • noroblad
    noroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Science vessel can have massive amounts of shields.

    Most carriers are from boxes or C-store. Only the breen sar theln is "free" for all.


    the shields on a *sci themed* carrier are the same as a sci ship: 1.3 modifiers.

    The obelisk was free briefly. The karfi is "free" to paying customers who get a t5 ship free, if they want it. But yes, most of the carriers cost money. So do most of the other ships in the game... only a tiny handful of free ships exist and most have some sort of weakness, the breen ships are a notable exception for being pretty good, all 3.
  • mustrumridcully0
    mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,958 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    noroblad wrote: »
    Im sorry, which of those can the kdf and rom factions use again?
    Exactly as many battle cloaking and enhanced battle cloaking ships the Federation can use. But it doesn't change that Tier 6 Science Vessels exist. And considering the thread starter did even talk about the Research Science Vessels (definitely a Fed ship), I certainly didn't make the leap that you were only counting KDF or ROM ships.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • noroblad
    noroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Exactly as many battle cloaking and enhanced battle cloaking ships the Federation can use. But it doesn't change that Tier 6 Science Vessels exist. And considering the thread starter did even talk about the Research Science Vessels (definitely a Fed ship), I certainly didn't make the leap that you were only counting KDF or ROM ships.

    The thread is about carriers vs sci ships. The reason the breen is #1 is that 2/3 of the factions have nothing else. The scryer should blow it away for dps, from what little ive seen of it.

    I said I did not look at the fed ships. I don't know what its many t6 ships do. All I know is they have 10 or 15 or whatever to our 2.
  • tucana66
    tucana66 Member Posts: 710 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    On one of my lvl 60 FED SCI toons, I'm currently using the Odyssey SCI version (T5-U) and loving it.

    Previously with this toon, I was flying the T6 Pathfinder (Intrepid), Fleet T5-U Advanced Research Science Retrofit (Nebula), the T6 Dauntless and the Fleet T5-U Rhode Island.

    Admittedly, I LOVE the Rhode Island (Nova). Fast, agile, capable, enough that I'm surviving various Advanced STFs.

    And I admit to being surprised how much I've enjoyed the Nebula. The Tachyon Detection Field console is tremendous fun, particularly when workiong with a team to finish off a large group of enemy ships. (Crystalliine Catastrophe Advanced was particularly fun for this.)

    The Dauntless I like... but don't love. The hull is tin foil. We'l see if a Fleet T6 version make a difference.


    What I'm saying is: Science ships are NOT useless. They may not appeal to DPSers (although I know some that would argue that ;) ). I like to heal in STFs; I also manage to hold my own, too. Sometimes it takes a little longer, but I can get the job done.

    Maybe science ships = patient players :rolleyes:

    STO does needs more KDF and ROM sci ships...
  • mustrumridcully0
    mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,958 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    noroblad wrote: »
    I said I did not look at the fed ships. I don't know what its many t6 ships do. All I know is they have 10 or 15 or whatever to our 2.
    Yeah, but is it my fault if I overread that bit?


    Oh, well, maybe. Carry on then.

    Or rather, science on.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • farseeridranel
    farseeridranel Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    noroblad wrote: »
    the shields on a *sci themed* carrier are the same as a sci ship: 1.3 modifiers.

    The obelisk was free briefly. The karfi is "free" to paying customers who get a t5 ship free, if they want it. But yes, most of the carriers cost money. So do most of the other ships in the game... only a tiny handful of free ships exist and most have some sort of weakness, the breen ships are a notable exception for being pretty good, all 3.


    Well, the highest shield modifiers can still be found on science vessel (1.45 on palisade, 1.457 C-store dyson ships), but with the recluse directly behind it (1.375) *splittinghairs*

    There were a couple of free ships except from the T4 ships: Risian summer event, Breen winter event, anniversary...thinking about it, I cannot remember a proper science vessel among them (apart from the dyson science destroyer), but 2 carriers (breen and obelisk).
  • noroblad
    noroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Well, the highest shield modifiers can still be found on science vessel (1.45 on palisade, 1.457 C-store dyson ships), but with the recluse directly behind it (1.375) *splittinghairs*

    There were a couple of free ships except from the T4 ships: Risian summer event, Breen winter event, anniversary...thinking about it, I cannot remember a proper science vessel among them (apart from the dyson science destroyer), but 2 carriers (breen and obelisk).

    You are right, the sci ships do have a little more shield. Its been a while since I have had one and I thought they were only 1.35.

    Heh, the obelisk. No frigates. 6 guns. No real science seating. No real tac seating/consoles. Speaking of useless ships...
  • wildweasal
    wildweasal Member Posts: 1,053 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    as i have said 1000 times .....perhaps its not the ship ....it really is you
    3ondby_zpsikszslyx.jpg
  • ceekayzero
    ceekayzero Member Posts: 411 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I use a Scryer on my main, with 400+ PartGens and the Particle Manipulator Trait. Cloak, go up to the enemy, hit OSS2 and EPTA, then TBR and EWP. You get to kill ships by dragging them through a toxic TRIBBLE...hilarious!
  • noroblad
    noroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ceekayzero wrote: »
    I use a Scryer on my main, with 400+ PartGens and the Particle Manipulator Trait. Cloak, go up to the enemy, hit OSS2 and EPTA, then TBR and EWP. You get to kill ships by dragging them through a toxic TRIBBLE...hilarious!

    It is a little disappointing how some combos work (like yours) and some do not work (for example, you can't drop a phat pattern of tractor mines and then TBR em to death... the mines can't hold the ship in place, at all).

    If you want to really mess them up, buy or make a crafted gas torp and TS that INTO them as they are being dragged behind you in the gas, once the gas immobalizes them... (I cant remember if you need an active officer for that, somehow you can make EWP freeze them though?).
  • forcemajeure
    forcemajeure Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I think a number of people are missing my original point - it's not that I can't DPS in a science ship (I'm flying around doing level 50 content in a tier 3 ship after all); or that I think science ships can't complete game content and dish out DPS.

    To me it feels as if my carriers/flight decks do more DPS and have more options than any of the sci ships I have tried/have available.

    What I did pick up from a number of replies in here is that a Sci build needs to be specialized, focused on non-standard damage approaches, and flown/used in a certain way to out-damage (or at least be fully competitive) with the 'easier' ship classes.

    I've got no problem with this, as my sci builds (like all my captains/ships) are currently 'unspecialized' until I decide which captain/ship combo I really want to focus on for them. Although specializing captain's skills to focus/deal one type of damage seems a bit limiting...

    At any rate, I will look further into a more sci-specific focus for these ships. Thanks for any advice offered here, and feel free to comment on specifically *what* you deal damage with in your sci ships; ie, some people have said "get this item, max this skill, boost this damage type and you'll deal XXmaxXX DPS"... but then not said what abilities they are using (or which tactics) to deal it.

    Thanks for replies, time to do some in-depth work here I guess.
  • organicmanfred
    organicmanfred Member Posts: 3,236 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Dear OP,

    If you want players to help you, give you information, then you might think about NOT using a headline that starts a rage bash on you.

    Just ask in a normal way, most of the players are very sensitive about their career choice and ships, and throwing a statement like yours into the crowd of pretty heavy expertes, shows them only that you might not have a clue of what you are doing.

    And we already had that last month with a guy who said Engineers are uselss and started 3-4 threads about that but didnt want to hear anything the players said.


    So, be wiser with your headlines and you can get a lot of nice friends here.
  • ceekayzero
    ceekayzero Member Posts: 411 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    noroblad wrote: »
    It is a little disappointing how some combos work (like yours) and some do not work (for example, you can't drop a phat pattern of tractor mines and then TBR em to death... the mines can't hold the ship in place, at all).

    If you want to really mess them up, buy or make a crafted gas torp and TS that INTO them as they are being dragged behind you in the gas, once the gas immobalizes them... (I cant remember if you need an active officer for that, somehow you can make EWP freeze them though?).

    Really...? Would it be better or worse than the Grav Well Torp? (I run GW Torps and Neutronic Torps right now, but could swap out one of the current beams on the ship for a gas torp).

    I think a number of people are missing my original point - it's not that I can't DPS in a science ship (I'm flying around doing level 50 content in a tier 3 ship after all); or that I think science ships can't complete game content and dish out DPS.

    To me it feels as if my carriers/flight decks do more DPS and have more options than any of the sci ships I have tried/have available.

    What I did pick up from a number of replies in here is that a Sci build needs to be specialized, focused on non-standard damage approaches, and flown/used in a certain way to out-damage (or at least be fully competitive) with the 'easier' ship classes.

    I think that's what bothers me the most about sci ships in the game - yes, you can do some very interesting things with them, but in order to do it effectively it requires a pretty heavy time and resource commitment. That stated, right now sci ships are probably the most entertaining way of playing STO for me.
  • szerontzur
    szerontzur Member Posts: 2,614 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I confess I recently switched from my Tac DSD to the Sarr Theln on my Drain-Specialist, but I do think those Secondary Deflectors are going to bring new life to Science Ships/Builds. The bonuses they provide are pretty fantastic, in all honesty.

    The exotic damage potential of a pure science ship absolutely puts sci-carriers and sci-cruisers to shame. Drain and Control builds.. are at the point where you really don't need to fully min-max them anymore(my Sarr Theln can completely disable a Voth Citadel without using OSS or needing a 5th sci console).