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AFK penalty?

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  • ankokunekoankokuneko Member Posts: 318 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    sunfrancks wrote: »
    It used to be the low DPS players getting all the flack for not pulling their weight.

    Now the DPS guys are getting it for doing too much!

    lol, it is like the bullies getting beaten up, by those they used to bully...

    I love the irony of the situation. ;)

    There is an important difference here, before low dps players got flack because everyone failed the mission and wasted everyones time, now only those low dps players fail the mission and lose time
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  • kjwashingtonkjwashington Member Posts: 2,529 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    lostyus wrote: »
    Thanks :)

    I'm still enjoying the game but I do need help (even though I've already looked through threads before this post) lately been playing the Romulan dailies (where you travel to each planet etc) and my friend and I are struggling, every battle takes a while and we know we need DPS.

    This may be partly our thinking, but we don't like dieing, and we don't see it as a way of playingand it lacks skill. I don't think it's right to have your ship blown up and then just jump straight back into the battle like nothing has happened (and please cryptic, don't get ideas from this, I'm not asking for a penalty on death lol). I'd rather be able to complete a mission and think to myself, "cool, i did well then, got through it without dieing" rather than "cool, only died 4 times on that attempt". I could probably have more power, instead of having 2 eng shield heal and 1 science heal, and 2 hull heals (eng and sci) but I need them to survive.


    I'm not gonna strip everything and hunt for the massive DPS but I have/will change some things to get to a more happy medium :)

    I suggest posting your build using this:
    http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/
    Also, tell us what you like about it and don't think you would want to change, so that we can work around it. :D
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    Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    So many elitists in this thread..
  • kjwashingtonkjwashington Member Posts: 2,529 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    risian4 wrote: »
    So many elitists in this thread..

    Lol, so true. :P
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    Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
  • sinn74sinn74 Member Posts: 1,149 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    There is no way someone should expect rewards in something called "Advanced" content doing under 2k DPS. It's that simple. You're contributing next to nothing.
  • donowickdonowick Member Posts: 269 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    It is rare that you join a mission already running but does happen. I have joined a cure elite before DR that was a fail when I got there lol. But I never had that problem with CE and have come in late there also. The only thing that kills me there is the CE not tholians. Do you use keybinds? If you do have at least 1 or 2 heals there it will help a lot. Keybinds can be your friend but I know some people don't like them. :)
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Still, can't you guys like NOT pug or something?

    It takes like 10 times longer longer to get 10 people in a CCA than just queuing for it.

    Especially since CCA queues are pretty fast, and have zero chance of failure.

    Healing also counts towards ranking/placing in CCA, though IIRC I think damage to Tholians does not count.
  • ummaxummax Member Posts: 529 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    It takes like 10 times longer longer to get 10 people in a CCA than just queuing for it.

    Especially since CCA queues are pretty fast, and have zero chance of failure.

    Healing also counts towards ranking/placing in CCA, though IIRC I think damage to Tholians does not count.

    Tholian damage counts I tried this once just to test it and didnt touch the entity and just killed tholians I got 1st place. Of course I did this on an engineer so it might have also had to do with the heals and repairs dont know, but if you want to crowd control tholians which people do appreciate and helps those who are after the entity you wont get an afk penalty. Of course you need to be able to like you know do some damage.

    I do agree anyone contributing less then 1k dps is probably not helping however the other side of this coin is that those who have massive dps and have done it so many times they can race in and one shot tholians are in fact not giving others in slower ships with lesser builds a chance to rack up MORE then 1k dps so its a double edged sword. If your a high dps'er considering the main reason to go in there is for everyone to get some marks and dilithium it would just be a good idea to hang back and wait for 20 seconds to allow others to register more then 1k dps. Then everyone wins and those who are slower are not afk'd by accident.

    After all the higher dps'ers have their first place and have conquered the content so there is no reason for them to be 1st at all just get their marks and dilithium like everyone else. Even if they waited they would still be first if they are after purples which anyone who can consistently get first is floating in from that instance (me included).
  • nicha0nicha0 Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Remember that the AFK monitor isn't using DPS, its likely giving you a score between Damage and Heals.

    If a bad player warps in, mission half finished, with low dps, shoots a tholian and dies, then respawns and starts shooting again, the overall damage and no self healing would give them a tiny score.

    In 45s, they were probably dead or flying to the enemy for 25s. If they shot for 20s with 1-2k dps (and even autofire does more than that) its not hard to see why they'd be non-existant. There is a pretty serious build problem on OPs ship without a doubt
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  • historynerd1historynerd1 Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    101 seconds? That's crazy, no wonder it was done so quick. And yeah I probably was one of the ones who got zapped that run.

    I just ran another instance, same ship same gear, still getting used to the ship but better, and I scored 3rd place. So it's not that I'm that bad, just bad luck I suppose. Still, can't you guys like NOT pug or something? It's really not fair to everyone else to get zapped just because DPSers decided to pug an instance three or more at a time.

    Haha!! You mean don't play the game?
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    risian4 wrote: »
    So many elitists in this thread..

    Can you point out to me which are which? Cause I'm not able to determine for myself which are which. If there were folks saying that you needed to do 40k DPS for a CCA or to GTFO, then they would stand out like a sore thumb. Folks pointing out that perhaps at 2k DPS, folks might want to address some issues they've got going on...sounds damn helpful to me.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    skollulfr wrote: »
    what you just displayed is a stunning amount of cognitive dissonance.
    you literally answered your own post, in your own post.

    i bolded part so you get it.

    I don't think cognitive dissonance means what you think it does.

    I know what 'I' would be upset by, if I personally was the OP, and that is the design that allows for such disparity for a host of reasons from the game never actually teaching the player anything useful to the * math the game uses or even the silly number of things that are far superior to others. Or even the lazy AFK mechanic which is quite easy to bypass when one wants to make a sandwich half way into a match apparently.

    But the OP is upset with having high performing teammates. I am attempting to empathize and failing terribly because that creates a massive amount of cognitive dissonance for me. I have this problem with many things because everyone just wants to blame the easy, right in front of them target, instead of attempting to find the true source of the problem (game design) or an actual viable solution (L2P).

    I find it very annoying and frustrating.
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  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    You clearly have not been paying attention at ALL.

    To reiterate, I run this mission regularly and have no problems. In the very next instance of it I ran after the first I described in my OP I placed 3rd, which isn't great but it's not horrible. In the ship I just switched from I did that pretty regularly and occasionally better, and in this one while I'm still in the process of kitting it out properly and figuring out its quirks but I can hold up my end.

    It is ONLY when mega-DPS jockeys vape everything in 2 minutes or less that there is an issue. Perhaps you won't understand until it happens to you, but it is an issue and it is NOT a matter of "you must suck", it's a matter of there being a massive gap between the uber-DPS few and the vast majority of normal players that has not been addressed.

    You are right, I don't understand.

    I don't understand how a player playing any of these queued instances can do so badly that they're at risk for being considered AFK.

    I play CCA all the time. It's part of my rotation of instances, and that it's EASY Nukara Marks & Dil. The risk of getting the AFK penalty never happens to me because... I play the game.

    FYI, CCA is easy. It's short. It's easier than Pre-DR ISE which were being done in less than a handful of minutes. When you have a bunch of competent players doing a CCA, it's over very quickly. And they don't even have to be Top Tier DPSers to do it, because CCA is stupid easy. Remember a few weeks back that people cried around here that the Entity was too tough? Then Cryptic nerfed the Entity so that it's an absolute joke now. That's why it's easy.

    Not to mention as time has progressed Post-DR, people have gotten better with the changes and some upgrades. Some more than others.

    You don't need to be some 20k+ whatever DPSer to successfully do TRIBBLE like CCA. You just play. I have fleetmates that I know aren't exactly the best STO players nor equipped well, a certain one I had to show that repair abilities DO exist in STO (that's how bad off she was)... and yet I've never, ever heard any of them complain that they got penalized for being an AFK'er.

    You are doing something wrong.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    ummax wrote: »
    those who have massive dps and have done it so many times they can race in and one shot tholians

    I'm pretty sure this isn't actually possible.

    Most high DPS ships are AoE based, so damage is generally unfocused. In a 30k-only run of CCA, the Tholians melt as a group effort, but one or two high DPS ships in an average PUG they won't be obliterating the Tholians.

    The Tholians survived well enough to kill the OP.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    The fastest runs I've been in are where folks just ignore the Tholians...just toss out some AoE CC here and there while just burning the Entity down, wham, bam, done, and on to something else.
  • ummaxummax Member Posts: 529 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure this isn't actually possible.

    Most high DPS ships are AoE based, so damage is generally unfocused. In a 30k-only run of CCA, the Tholians melt as a group effort, but one or two high DPS ships in an average PUG they won't be obliterating the Tholians.

    The Tholians survived well enough to kill the OP.

    Oh I know how they do the high dps lol still if they gather them up and stuff them in a gravity well and they die before others can get any shots in to register.... this is common in other games the remedy is in fact for major dps'ers to stand back a bit lol did it all the time in raiding because parses are relative and so are readings for those instances as who will have done any dps and who wont.

    Really the big draw to the crystaline entity is easy fleet marks and such (not even dilithium for many) so no reason why people can't hold back a bit. If the people are then getting an afk penalty then its for other reasons.

    Anyhow since I have a character that can do this kind of damage I often hold back till others get some dps in. Anyhow its just a suggestion as I do it myself let the lower dps'ers shoot first for a few seconds before piling on the dps your probably going to have less issues with unintentional afking.

    Not everyone is the same skill level and I see nothing wrong with letting a few people get some fleet marks or nakura marks. I am not very competitive though so in that respect maybe I am unusual I dont know /shrug.

    The fastest runs I've been in are where folks just ignore the Tholians...just toss out some AoE CC here and there while just burning the Entity down, wham, bam, done, and on to something else.

    Yes i have done this too completely ignored the tholians and just go for the entity and that is why people die to them sometimes though its nice to kill them as well if your looking for vendor trash and a few more xp points. Anyhow if people are dying from the tholians its probably because no one is busy shooting at them :)
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    ummax wrote: »
    Oh I know how they do the high dps lol still if they gather them up and stuff them in a gravity well and they die before others can get any shots in to register.... this is common in other games the remedy is in fact for major dps'ers to stand back a bit lol did it all the time in raiding because parses are relative and so are readings for those instances as who will have done any dps and who wont.

    Really the big draw to the crystaline entity is easy fleet marks and such (not even dilithium for many) so no reason why people can't hold back a bit. If the people are then getting an afk penalty then its for other reasons.

    Anyhow since I have a character that can do this kind of damage I often hold back till others get some dps in. Anyhow its just a suggestion as I do it myself let the lower dps'ers shoot first for a few seconds before piling on the dps your probably going to have less issues with unintentional afking.

    Not everyone is the same skill level and I see nothing wrong with letting a few people get some fleet marks or nakura marks. I am not very competitive though so in that respect maybe I am unusual I dont know /shrug.

    For me, it would be one thing if the DPS folks were flying around trolling all the normals and so forth...

    It's CCA...it's not unreasonable to expect somebody to meet a certain level of DPS for the content or contribute in some fashion for the level of content.

    In the OP's first paragraph, they state exactly why they shouldn't have been there in the first place...it's nobody's fault but their own.
    ummax wrote: »
    Yes i have done this too completely ignored the tholians and just go for the entity and that is why people die to them sometimes though its nice to kill them as well if your looking for vendor trash and a few more xp points. Anyhow if people are dying from the tholians its probably because no one is busy shooting at them :)

    See, even charging in on the first group alone - I don't see how somebody could die. Sure, if you charge all three groups after it is done by yourself...heh, that can be dicey...but again, it goes back to it being CCA. Be ready for it or don't queue it...

    ...personally I don't care if somebody's got their personal prereqs for something - where maybe they want everybody doing 20-30k+ or whatever, lol, TRIBBLE them - they can do a channel run...but content does have its own prereqs and folks should try to meet them, imho.
  • cirran1cirran1 Member Posts: 230 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I have gotten into CCA very late. Was flying up to the tholians had just gotten my first salvo in when the Entity died. I got a 2 hr afk ban. This has happen to me only one time. Something that happens around 50-55 percent is in Infected the Conduit on normal. High DPS folks come in shoot the generators and ignoring the spheres. Which is ok but for some reason they fail to kill one of the generators and get on the transformer late and a nanite sphere heals it and causes the group to fail the optional. 40-43 percent of the rest of the time high DPS folks almost cause a fail of the option for the same reason except one of their teammates works their butt off to CC the incoming nanite spheres and manages to hold them off long enough for the high DPS folks to kill the transformer. 1-3 percent of the time you get a troll who blows up a generator on both sides of the gate.

    cirran
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    cirran1 wrote: »
    I have gotten into CCA very late. Was flying up to the tholians had just gotten my first salvo in when the Entity died. I got a 2 hr afk ban. This has happen to me only one time.

    Think everybody (would hope everybody) would be in agreement about fixing some of the "late-join" things where the AFK stuff happens. Not the folks that "early-join, late-in" to avoid having to do anything, but those folks that literally join a queue and get in on an almost done or right before done sort of thing getting nailed by something like that...that's just a garbage thing to do to a player.
  • lostyuslostyus Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I suggest posting your build using this:
    http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/
    Also, tell us what you like about it and don't think you would want to change, so that we can work around it. :D

    cool, thanks for the offer to help, :) I've completed the first part today (ship items) but I'll have to finish and post the rest tomorrow, just been a bit busy today. :o
  • ummaxummax Member Posts: 529 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    If they are late to join like very late they probably should just have no time penalty I guess. I personally have never had this afk thing even when joining late so I have a hard time accepting the person was actually well NOT afk but I am a very cynical person lol.

    But I can see that if your on the low end already and die that possibly you will loose enough time on the encounter to actually get this penalty but your dps would have to be so small to start with that its hard to imagine.

    I do tend to wait often but at other times I fly in first but its usually on my science officer who I am still trying to get all the bits and pieces for his ship for him to do very well but even then I have yet to encounter this afk penalty and some runs are very fast
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    lostyus wrote: »
    @Ryan

    I've watched the first few videos of yours and they are good so thanks for those :)

    But I'd like to ask you something.

    In the videos you were using an escort with cannons, (and 2 scatter shot), after what forum user john98837 wrote how come you are using cannons, surely you are losing DPS by using cannons over beam banks?

    Also, using an escort with cannons (with 45 degree firing angle) means your DPS will have a lot of down time (not being used), while you turn around and line up for another strafing run on the target. Do you do anything different to get the most from an escort? (IE don't run away to line up for another shot, instead just chose another target, and zig zag from target to target?

    The reason I ask is because although I'm enjoying the beam banks, using Fire At Will -because they have a wider firing angle-, is causing me to hit so many more enemies and drawing a lot more aggro than I normally would. I think if cannons are viable (in your opinion) then I might prefer them so as to stop this aggro draw... and also cause they look cooler lol :o


    Never do strafing runs, park in front of your target(s) in close range. When one is about to die, activate impulse to move in to the next. Try to fly so that you can fire without pause (minimize pause).

    The plus-sides of DHCs are (indeed) high damage in limited arc, which means you draw less aggro, and the targeted enemies die fast. The down-side is again limited arc, this being the lesser uptime if you have to move, which can however being cut short by adaptive piloting. Due to higher damage in the arc enemies tend to die faster than with beams (though >40k dps this is indeed negliceable).
    Especially for new players/characters, DHC-Escorts are a good choice as normally decent piloting can be learned quickly, damage is quite good, but defense is lacking, so the less enemies fire on you, the better.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I guess, for me, it comes down to a tale of two threads. Comparing this thread to the other one...this one is laying blame everywhere else while the other one has been pretty positive, eh?
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  • sinn74sinn74 Member Posts: 1,149 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    No, I'm not. Seriously, is your reading comprehension so poor? I stated quite clearly that I do this run very often and have no problem 99% of the time. The very next run I did in the same ship (still a work in progress ship, by the way, this is not my main) and gear I got 3rd place. I just ran the mission again and got 3rd place again. No it's not wonderful, but it shows I can play the mission and hold up my end of the duty.

    It is ONLY a problem when mega-DPS players vape the thing so damned fast that other players never get a chance to do enough before it's all over. One of them that was in that very run said it took them 101 seconds total to kill. Think about that, a CCA in 101 seconds. No I'm not a beast mode player especially not on a farming alt but I'm within the solidly normal range so if it can happen to me it can happen to almost anyone.

    Maybe you won't understand until it happens to you, but as long as these uber-DPS players pug in numbers then the odds will catch up to you sooner or later.

    EDIT ADDENDUM:

    What the hell is a player supposed to do? To get the gear and ships you have to run the missions and earn the Dilithium and marks to pay for it. Short of demanding we pay real money to get gear and ships, aka pay to win, playing the missions to earn the points to get better equipment is exactly what you're supposed to do. Right now I'm only 4000 zen shy of the Delta Pack which will mean T6 ships for all my characters, I've been saving Dilithium for over two months now to get there. I'm doing what I'm supposed to. It's not cool to get cockblocked by people who already have all the elite gear and probably paid real money to get it. This isn't PvP. In PvE you're supposed to play the content to earn points to make upgrades and that is exactly what I'm doing.

    The rules say grind for the good equipment and so grind I am. I shouldn't be penalized for doing what the game demands.

    I'm not sure I understand. If you're queueing for Advanced content...you don't want to see advanced players? Shouldn't that be expected? How do you think the DPS channel CCAs go? They're silly.

    I'm under 30k DPS (far less on some of my alts), and I've never received an AFK penalty.

    Do you think that one deserves to receive rewards for doing under 2k DPS? I don't want to use DPS DPS DPS to show usefulness, but under 2000 is unbelievably low...a science captain can best that using nothing but gravity well and Photonic Fleet, with no weapons slotted.

    You mention that you're using an unfinished "farming alt." I'm not sure why you are surprised that you join Advanced content, get (unfortunately) thrown in late, and don't do as well as others...then decide that it's all the fault of other players.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    sinn74 wrote: »
    You mention that you're using an unfinished "farming alt." I'm not sure why you are surprised that you join Advanced content, get (unfortunately) thrown in late, and don't do as well as others...then decide that it's all the fault of other players.

    That right there...bingo...bazinga...etc, etc, etc...right? The OP laid out all the issues which were not the other players' issues and then decided to make it the other players' issue? Lolwut?
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    snip

    So, you are dying 99% of your cca-runs too? Because that was your downfall, cutting your time in combat short. Not even considering you had to search for an icon in your (as you said correctly set up) tray, which took time too.

    Dont blame others as you could have easily avoided your penalty. By not dying for example. Which is a good goal for any content...

    As for comprehension, it seems you didnt catch the meaning of "number of interactions". Don't throw bricks when you live in a glass house.
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