1. Suggested? Yes you can suggest it but you can just as easily suggest it without trying hold up bad data as support. Yes, its concievable that STO is a contributing factor but as with so many things in this house of cards you've built up for yourself it relies exclusively on selective interpertation and a very dim view of what the limitations are of your data.
Take the point that what you cited doesn't really support what you're trying to say like a reasonable adult (ie. one that doesn't resort to parroting) and keep your opinion to the subjective grounds on which it is truly based.
2. The data is OBVIOUSLY compromised. Here's it in more detail: short term data is not reported the same as long term. They OBVIOUSLY apply a smoothing factor which makes any comparison of population in the near term with the long term UNRELIABLE (because of the variation introduced by the smoothing factor.) Just take alook at the data that we CAN say something for on steam (ignoring the other issue too that it only represents an unspecified sample rather than the total population). Basically, from September to now. There's a jump in October (duh) and a decline afterwards but we're only down to WHERE WE WERE BEFORE DR.
This is why you look at your data in more detail (rather than jumping to a convenient conclusion at the first oppotunity.) It helps to keep you from making specious arguments.
All data is compromised, whether you want to accept that or not. Take a government census: it collects data about every single individual in a country. Yet, we know that some of those people lie on their census. We still use that data because it's the best we have. Yes, the Steam stats have limitations, I already knew that. However, we don't have anything else. I've already argued that elsewhere. Its long-term view especially is problematic because of Arc starting up at the beginning of this year, I'm aware of that. Yet none of that changes the basic fact: DR was a minor blip, that has fallen off rapidly, at a far greater rate than LoR did. That's the way it is, whether you want to accept that or not.
Take the point that I disagree with you. I'm not going to agree with you merely because you've decided to draw different conclusions.
We know there *is* a trend toward players moving from Steam to Arc, and we know that new players are pushed to Arc and not Steam by marketing. We don't know the scale of that shift or indeed what percentage Steam represents at any point in time.
I'm not an armchair statistician. I'm a ****ing professional. You're the lunatic who's trying to interpret data to say something he knows it can't by definition.
Very well... "Delta Rising is the most successful launch ever and the players love it"... STO has more players in it then ever... they've all abandoned Steam and started logging in via Arc, even more people than were playing in Steam! And PWE loves it, and hasn't demanded any changes whatsoever, in fact, they've told Cryptic to not change a change, because STO is just thumping full.
All data is compromised, whether you want to accept that or not. Take a government census: it collects data about every single individual in a country. Yet, we know that some of those people lie on their census. We still use that data because it's the best we have. Yes, the Steam stats have limitations, I already knew that. However, we don't have anything else. I've already argued that elsewhere. Its long-term view especially is problematic because of Arc starting up at the beginning of this year, I'm aware of that. Yet none of that changes the basic fact: DR was a minor blip, that has fallen off rapidly, at a far greater rate than LoR did. That's the way it is, whether you want to accept that or not.
The process of statistics is very loosely stated an attempt to overcome the limitations of data (of being able to make reasonable conclusions from a sample given that you do not have all the theoretical data to analyze.) The presence of those limitations isn't the issue, its the question of whether or not they inhibit you from making inferences.
Here we can't approach the subject quantitatively (don't have the necessary data) but we can say qualitatively that the steam data is flawed enough that it prevents reliable assessments from being made. Where STO falls off seems to be where the change over between long-term and short term reporting method comes in, suggesting that its an artifact of the reporting rather than a real trend. And if you take a look at only one or the other (short term or long) you cannot support the argument that the STO population is failing (particularly as a result of recent developments).
As for LOR, keep in mind that it shipped in Spring rather than Fall (which is the busiest season in gaming releases.) Though DR didn't achieve the same peak and has dropped off more quickly, you can easily interpret that as being a result of context rather than inherent content inferiority. Now keep in mind that this isn't just to gain-say you with plausible bull**** in hopes that adding doubt will do the job of a proper argument. When considering data trends and what causes them you need to consider what else might be affecting the system. Presuming this or that cause without proper controls (or at least proper consideration for those alternatives) is liable to lead you astray.
So where does that leave us? Well the data (what we have that we can say anything about) doesn't support your case. Now you can still certainly argue that on functional grounds STO has done worse by crafting, T6, 51-60+ leveling, a lack of content initiative (devil's advocate here), and so on. However you can't justify that on the mirky grounds of popular support as inferred from numbers.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
The game is in a sad state, it will not get better because the Devs are just completely clueless and don't listen to feedback. Therefore, the game will never improve, it will continue to be what it is now.. a pretty fun game up until level 50-60 followed by mind numbing grind until you just want to quit.
Will the game shut down anytime soon? Probably not.
Why? Because people are still spending. Just look at the number of T6 ships you see flying around (I'm part of the problem, I bought 2 of them.) Each ship you see is either a $30 purchase or represents a player that bought a Delta Pack. The money is flowing in.
As long as money is flowing, the game is not going anywhere. It's not going to sink, it's not going offline.
It may suck.. but it will endure. As long as people spend, Cryptic will nerf for many more years to come.
A guy on another thread just said he was going to buy enough lobi to enable him to get the FREE breen carrier from the event on the first day. That's at least $400 worth of keys, at worst over $600 worth.
When people are THAT stupid, Cryptic aren't going to be short of money.
A guy on another thread just said he was going to buy enough lobi to enable him to get the FREE breen carrier from the event on the first day. That's at least $400 worth of keys, at worst over $600 worth.
When people are THAT stupid, Cryptic aren't going to be short of money.
If that guy was being serious, then he's mind numbingly stupid.
Paying $400-$600 for a ship that's free if you just do a daily activity for a couple weeks is nuts.
The guy is literally paying hundreds of dollars to NOT play the game.
Players like that are why things won't get fixed. Why put the time or effort into fixing the game if people like him will drain their bank accounts like that?
You can thank players like that for the current state of the game. There is only one way to effect change, and that's to stop spending money.
The player wants to spend the money on something he finds enjoyment with.
It's not "stupid" at all.
Paying hundreds of dollars for something you'll get for free if you're patient - and that you actually don't know you're going to enjoy yet - isn't the most sensible thing in the world.
The player wants to spend the money on something he finds enjoyment with.
It's not "stupid" at all.
I understand and respect your view, I really do.
As hard as I try though, I just can't see it the same way. It just seems crazy to me to spend that much on a free ship. I guess you're right though, it's all personal opinion.
I just have to wonder if he'll regret the decision in 2 weeks when every player in the game is flying one (remember how many Obelisk Carriers there were when that was free?) and he's just like everyone else, just out hundreds of dollars.
To each their own I guess. I still believe that players like that will keep the game from getting any of the fixes it desperately needs. No one is going to take the time to fix it when people are spending like that. Why would they?
Paying hundreds of dollars for something you'll get for free if you're patient - and that you actually don't know you're going to enjoy yet - isn't the most sensible thing in the world.
I'll have it and the raider pets within 5 min of logging on. I still have 1000 on 4 alts from last year. Sci toons will get one for sure. Both previous ships have been damn good, and if you're new to the game (and don't read the forums, facebook or twitter) its the first free T6 ship avilable.
I'll have it and the raider pets within 5 min of logging on. I still have 1000 on 4 alts from last year. Sci toons will get one for sure. Both previous ships have been damn good, and if you're new to the game (and don't read the forums, facebook or twitter) its the first free T6 ship avilable.
That's totally different, this guy was talking about buying those special Q's holiday pack things that cost lobi and only contain about 5 signed photos....
I just have to wonder if he'll regret the decision in 2 weeks when every player in the game is flying one (remember how many Obelisk Carriers there were when that was free?) and he's just like everyone else, just out hundreds of dollars.
Maybe. :P Then again, he may find his "forever ship" with this event and the status of being one of the first to use it (because he was not patient enough to get it for free) is worth the real money cost ... to him.
I do believe, if enough players reduce, or stop, their spending, then Cryptic will certainly take notice, then take action in some way. If players are quitting at the rate being suggested by other players on these forums, then I'm sure it's being noticed.
The game is in a sad state, it will not get better because the Devs are just completely clueless and don't listen to feedback. Therefore, the game will never improve, it will continue to be what it is now.. a pretty fun game up until level 50-60 followed by mind numbing grind until you just want to quit.
Will the game shut down anytime soon? Probably not.
Why? Because people are still spending. Just look at the number of T6 ships you see flying around (I'm part of the problem, I bought 2 of them.) Each ship you see is either a $30 purchase or represents a player that bought a Delta Pack. The money is flowing in.
As long as money is flowing, the game is not going anywhere. It's not going to sink, it's not going offline.
It may suck.. but it will endure. As long as people spend, Cryptic will nerf for many more years to come.
I used to play games that were so badly handled and mismanaged they needed to be shut down but they are still going because a small number of players that are left continue to pump gross amounts of cash into it.
so is the game gonna die no but its my opinion its not going to get back to where it was before DR i think the games reputation as cryptics has been tarnished for good.
the whole reasoning behind this thread isnt to hate on anyone but to ask the question why cryptic doesnt care for the game or its players and continue to ignore the feedback about an expansion thats hurt this game.
the whole reasoning behind this thread isnt to hate on anyone but to ask the question why cryptic doesnt care for the game or its players and continue to ignore the feedback about an expansion thats hurt this game.
You are asking *the players* to conjure up what Cryptic is doing?
You are asking *the players* to conjure up what Cryptic is doing?
SHAME ON YOU :P
HEY!!! this aint the ban thread
Nah im just wondering whats goin on i mean this used to be one of my fav games now not so much and the devs just dont seem to care either about the game or the players and ignore the feedback.
so maybe i missed something im just trying to figure out why the switch all of a sudden from a dev team who actually seemed to care about the game and players and trek to what we got now.
so im just asking the question about wth happened why the drastic change and does anyone know if or when they may fix the game before it goes past the point of no return ....wherever that is
Geko stated quite clearly (though in more roundabout language) in the podcast P1 200 that he doesn't actually know much about how the game works, however he does follow the metrics very closely.
I don't see how either of those are good attributes for the games lead. Not to mention the CDF gained a few more rabid members who are attacking every damn thread that isn't blowing sunshine and rainbows out of Geko's TRIBBLE.
Metrics only show activity and shifts in player trends. They don't show player satisfaction or any of the emotional response of the players to the new content. I think Cryptic as a business needs to evolve as the current EA like stance is just stupid.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
At least we have the winter event to forget for a while of Craptic's nerfdom.
Hope there is still life support left to this game past January.
Its hard to say the winter event is just a deversion from the things going on but come january if something isnt done to fix things its going to be interesting to see where the game goes from here.
Comments
All data is compromised, whether you want to accept that or not. Take a government census: it collects data about every single individual in a country. Yet, we know that some of those people lie on their census. We still use that data because it's the best we have. Yes, the Steam stats have limitations, I already knew that. However, we don't have anything else. I've already argued that elsewhere. Its long-term view especially is problematic because of Arc starting up at the beginning of this year, I'm aware of that. Yet none of that changes the basic fact: DR was a minor blip, that has fallen off rapidly, at a far greater rate than LoR did. That's the way it is, whether you want to accept that or not.
Take the point that I disagree with you. I'm not going to agree with you merely because you've decided to draw different conclusions.
Very well... "Delta Rising is the most successful launch ever and the players love it"... STO has more players in it then ever... they've all abandoned Steam and started logging in via Arc, even more people than were playing in Steam! And PWE loves it, and hasn't demanded any changes whatsoever, in fact, they've told Cryptic to not change a change, because STO is just thumping full.
Happy now?
The process of statistics is very loosely stated an attempt to overcome the limitations of data (of being able to make reasonable conclusions from a sample given that you do not have all the theoretical data to analyze.) The presence of those limitations isn't the issue, its the question of whether or not they inhibit you from making inferences.
Here we can't approach the subject quantitatively (don't have the necessary data) but we can say qualitatively that the steam data is flawed enough that it prevents reliable assessments from being made. Where STO falls off seems to be where the change over between long-term and short term reporting method comes in, suggesting that its an artifact of the reporting rather than a real trend. And if you take a look at only one or the other (short term or long) you cannot support the argument that the STO population is failing (particularly as a result of recent developments).
As for LOR, keep in mind that it shipped in Spring rather than Fall (which is the busiest season in gaming releases.) Though DR didn't achieve the same peak and has dropped off more quickly, you can easily interpret that as being a result of context rather than inherent content inferiority. Now keep in mind that this isn't just to gain-say you with plausible bull**** in hopes that adding doubt will do the job of a proper argument. When considering data trends and what causes them you need to consider what else might be affecting the system. Presuming this or that cause without proper controls (or at least proper consideration for those alternatives) is liable to lead you astray.
So where does that leave us? Well the data (what we have that we can say anything about) doesn't support your case. Now you can still certainly argue that on functional grounds STO has done worse by crafting, T6, 51-60+ leveling, a lack of content initiative (devil's advocate here), and so on. However you can't justify that on the mirky grounds of popular support as inferred from numbers.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
The game is in a sad state, it will not get better because the Devs are just completely clueless and don't listen to feedback. Therefore, the game will never improve, it will continue to be what it is now.. a pretty fun game up until level 50-60 followed by mind numbing grind until you just want to quit.
Will the game shut down anytime soon? Probably not.
Why? Because people are still spending. Just look at the number of T6 ships you see flying around (I'm part of the problem, I bought 2 of them.) Each ship you see is either a $30 purchase or represents a player that bought a Delta Pack. The money is flowing in.
As long as money is flowing, the game is not going anywhere. It's not going to sink, it's not going offline.
It may suck.. but it will endure. As long as people spend, Cryptic will nerf for many more years to come.
When people are THAT stupid, Cryptic aren't going to be short of money.
Free Tibet!
If that guy was being serious, then he's mind numbingly stupid.
Paying $400-$600 for a ship that's free if you just do a daily activity for a couple weeks is nuts.
The guy is literally paying hundreds of dollars to NOT play the game.
Players like that are why things won't get fixed. Why put the time or effort into fixing the game if people like him will drain their bank accounts like that?
You can thank players like that for the current state of the game. There is only one way to effect change, and that's to stop spending money.
It's not "stupid" at all.
Paying hundreds of dollars for something you'll get for free if you're patient - and that you actually don't know you're going to enjoy yet - isn't the most sensible thing in the world.
Free Tibet!
I understand and respect your view, I really do.
As hard as I try though, I just can't see it the same way. It just seems crazy to me to spend that much on a free ship. I guess you're right though, it's all personal opinion.
I just have to wonder if he'll regret the decision in 2 weeks when every player in the game is flying one (remember how many Obelisk Carriers there were when that was free?) and he's just like everyone else, just out hundreds of dollars.
To each their own I guess. I still believe that players like that will keep the game from getting any of the fixes it desperately needs. No one is going to take the time to fix it when people are spending like that. Why would they?
I'll have it and the raider pets within 5 min of logging on. I still have 1000 on 4 alts from last year. Sci toons will get one for sure. Both previous ships have been damn good, and if you're new to the game (and don't read the forums, facebook or twitter) its the first free T6 ship avilable.
That's totally different, this guy was talking about buying those special Q's holiday pack things that cost lobi and only contain about 5 signed photos....
Free Tibet!
Maybe. :P Then again, he may find his "forever ship" with this event and the status of being one of the first to use it (because he was not patient enough to get it for free) is worth the real money cost ... to him.
I do believe, if enough players reduce, or stop, their spending, then Cryptic will certainly take notice, then take action in some way. If players are quitting at the rate being suggested by other players on these forums, then I'm sure it's being noticed.
Nah man but that is a nice sig
I used to play games that were so badly handled and mismanaged they needed to be shut down but they are still going because a small number of players that are left continue to pump gross amounts of cash into it.
so is the game gonna die no but its my opinion its not going to get back to where it was before DR i think the games reputation as cryptics has been tarnished for good.
the whole reasoning behind this thread isnt to hate on anyone but to ask the question why cryptic doesnt care for the game or its players and continue to ignore the feedback about an expansion thats hurt this game.
You are asking *the players* to conjure up what Cryptic is doing?
SHAME ON YOU :P
HEY!!! this aint the ban thread
Nah im just wondering whats goin on i mean this used to be one of my fav games now not so much and the devs just dont seem to care either about the game or the players and ignore the feedback.
so maybe i missed something im just trying to figure out why the switch all of a sudden from a dev team who actually seemed to care about the game and players and trek to what we got now.
so im just asking the question about wth happened why the drastic change and does anyone know if or when they may fix the game before it goes past the point of no return ....wherever that is
I don't see how either of those are good attributes for the games lead. Not to mention the CDF gained a few more rabid members who are attacking every damn thread that isn't blowing sunshine and rainbows out of Geko's TRIBBLE.
Metrics only show activity and shifts in player trends. They don't show player satisfaction or any of the emotional response of the players to the new content. I think Cryptic as a business needs to evolve as the current EA like stance is just stupid.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Hope there is still life support left to this game past January.
Its hard to say the winter event is just a deversion from the things going on but come january if something isnt done to fix things its going to be interesting to see where the game goes from here.