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Fail DR Mission Design

macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
The holographic voth dreadnought in "Alliances" (elite) is completely ridiculous. Tackling this in a T5 fleet defiant with MK XII rep / fleet + passive ... etc. This was a PvE and PvP build top dog before DR. One shot kills and insta drains against this NPC. Had a few tough battles with Vadwaur but this is insane.

Sorry folks, but I can't see the balance here. It is not like we are getting thousands of XP to kill these enemies. Poor design.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

- Judge Aaron Satie
Post edited by macronius on
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Comments

  • moonshadowdarkmoonshadowdark Member Posts: 1,899 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Do you mean a T5-U or just baseline T5? Because without the upgrade, yeah. you'll be getting swatted down.
    "A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP"

    -Leonard Nimoy, RIP
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    You are playing on Elite...
  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited November 2014
    Do you mean a T5-U or just baseline T5? Because without the upgrade, yeah. you'll be getting swatted down.

    Fleet T5. Between the instant shield drain and massive crit ... I can't get close enough to damage it ... even when the Doctor sabotages it to 25% health. I don't buy that T5U will suddenly make a difference. The increase in difficulty is massive between this part of the mission and everything else.

    Remember ... this ship is full kitted out ... with best traits, rep / fleet gear, weapons upgraded to MK XIV, etc. ... and I know how to use my boffs. I have done Hive Onslaught on elite with this ships prior to DR. And I was able to do all previous missions in DR on elite with only 1 or 2 hiccups.

    Beyond insane ...
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • kitsunesnoutkitsunesnout Member Posts: 1,210 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    If you think that's bad, try a step between the stars on elite and get to the part with the Dyson ship you can't customize, the only chance I stood after the first wave of undine was to not even attack and let the NPC Scimitar and klingon ship do the work with full aggro, for about two hours that went on, I should not have even bothered at that point it was so brokenly impossible to fight! The devs should try playing that as a science character, and I dare them to say that is working as intended!
  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited November 2014
    You are playing on Elite...

    So what. I played elite every mission up until this one and I go through it all without issues.
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • nightkennightken Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I did it in a t5 u breen warship with the breen episode set(no upgrades) with blues and greens... didn't take any longer then other fight... before they started lower the hp is it possibly your ship just wasn't that good except for pretty numbers. you say top dog but I outfitted my breen warship literally the night before delta launched with what I had laying around except a couple beam arrays. and I seem to have less problem like this then most

    and I'm using polaron. mostly standard with a few protonic. in case your wondering. and tok it out in elite patrols to help level too.

    if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited November 2014
    If you think that's bad, try a step between the stars on elite and get to the part with the Dyson ship you can't customize, the only chance I stood after the first wave of undine was to not even attack and let the NPC Scimitar and klingon ship do the work with full aggro, for about two hours that went on, I should not have even bothered at that point it was so brokenly impossible to fight! The devs should try playing that as a science character, and I dare them to say that is working as intended!

    Exactly. Challenge is one thing but this is broken and completely unbalanced. I don't get why there is this huge chasm between elite and normal. Normal awards practically no XP so it is not worth bothering. I can't see any of this encouraging me to spend more money.
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited November 2014
    nightken wrote: »
    I did it in a t5 u breen warship with the breen episode set(no upgrades) with blues and greens... didn't take any longer then other fight... before they started lower the hp is it possibly your ship just wasn't that good except for pretty numbers. you say top dog but I outfitted my breen warship literally the night before delta launched with what I had laying around except a couple beam arrays. and I seem to have less problem like this then most

    and I'm using polaron. mostly standard with a few protonic. in case your wondering. and tok it out in elite patrols to help level too.

    Play this specific mission on elite and post a video of it. ... Or it didn't happen. I know what I am doing. Everything before it was fine. This specific mission is broken.
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • moonshadowdarkmoonshadowdark Member Posts: 1,899 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    macronius wrote: »
    Fleet T5. Between the instant shield drain and massive crit ... I can't get close enough to damage it ... even when the Doctor sabotages it to 25% health. I don't buy that T5U will suddenly make a difference. The increase in difficulty is massive between this part of the mission and everything else.

    Remember ... this ship is full kitted out ... with best traits, rep / fleet gear, weapons upgraded to MK XIV, etc. ... and I know how to use my boffs. I have done Hive Onslaught on elite with this ships prior to DR. And I was able to do all previous missions in DR on elite with only 1 or 2 hiccups.

    Beyond insane ...

    Well upgrade anyway. Doesn't hurt not to. You should have the freebie enabled anyway, right? You owned your Fleet Defiant before DR. So you should have the free upgrade enabled. Give it a go and see if it helps.
    "A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP"

    -Leonard Nimoy, RIP
  • nightkennightken Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    macronius wrote: »
    Play this specific mission on elite and post a video of it. ... Or it didn't happen. I know what I am doing. Everything before it was fine. This specific mission is broken.

    can you buy me a new pc... no really mine has a freezing problem and I can barely check face book at this point. I'm hoping it'll hold together long enough for me to finish mirror event and do the winter one. I don't see winter happening though. otherwise by the time I get one. I'm gonna forget about this... and didn't you leave cause cryptic is an evil money grubbing empire or some such thing.

    then sure I'll do it. gonna take a while on my sucky build though.

    oh and you take a video with your "top dog" ship getting one shotted. after all your the one with the claim it's broken.

    if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
  • rsoblivionrsoblivion Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    He's not the only one. I was using the Aehlal Warbird on that mission on release day. The HP for Elites was 1.2 Million not including shields at that time. I did about 12-16K DPS with my build at the time, however I wasn't able to kill it when the doc dropped it to 25% health, it teleported me to the grav well, then one-shotted me with it's Beam Overload.

    That fight too over 2hrs to complete in total, with the part where I won taking 45 mins straight having to stay on it's rear arc or I'd get one-shotted by that BO. Not only that it has those lovely impervious shields to stick up every 2 mins, plus it's healing skills etc...

    I'd love to see how you did it with a Breen T5 with TRIBBLE you used just lying around, as it doesn't sound like you are talking truth.
    Chris Robert's on SC:
    "You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
  • opo98opo98 Member Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    rsoblivion wrote: »
    He's not the only one. I was using the Aehlal Warbird on that mission on release day. The HP for Elites was 1.2 Million not including shields at that time. I did about 12-16K DPS with my build at the time, however I wasn't able to kill it when the doc dropped it to 25% health, it teleported me to the grav well, then one-shotted me with it's Beam Overload.

    That fight too over 2hrs to complete in total, with the part where I won taking 45 mins straight having to stay on it's rear arc or I'd get one-shotted by that BO. Not only that it has those lovely impervious shields to stick up every 2 mins, plus it's healing skills etc...

    I'd love to see how you did it with a Breen T5 with TRIBBLE you used just lying around, as it doesn't sound like you are talking truth.

    Yeah, I had to bring the full might of my Tac officer in his Jemhadar T5U Dreadnought carrier.

    Those purple death beams it fired did 72k through full shields. O_O

    Only by getting really lucky did I beat it; even then I have top end gear. There is no way the average player can survive that, it's completely insane.
  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Yea... I did the same... T5 Fleet defiant, Full MK 12 adv weapons, and two sets (species 8472) on elite.

    Took me forever, but in HnR, and by luring it to the spawnpoint, so it never reset when I died was the solution...
    Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
    Let me put the rumors to rest: it's definitely still the C-Store (Cryptic Store) It just takes ZEN.
    Like Duty Officers? Support effords to gather ideas
  • ghyudtghyudt Member Posts: 1,112 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    T5-U actually doesn't help here. I fly an upgraded fleet galaxy. I've tweaked my ship to the point that it now tanks through Voth tower groups while barely breaking a sweat, and handily takes any amount of punishment Elite level vaadwaur can put out. But this one Voth dreadnaught made me feel like a beginner again, and actually killed me because I was so dumbfounded by its raw power that I forgot to do anything the first time around. This one ship was hell for me, especially since I don't specialize in dps. And that one mission actually reflects the current state of the game almost perfectly, basically saying that, unless you're doing upwards of 40k dps, you aren't going to get very far very fast. Even after it was knocked down to 25% by the Doc, it still took around 15 to 20 minutes to finish it, and I didn't think I'd be able to. I'm with the OP on this one, this **** needs to stop and be fixed, not just here, but throughout the whole game.
  • jheinigjheinig Member Posts: 361 Cryptic Developer
    edited November 2014
    There's actually a bug in the ship. A fix is in process (I submitted part of the fix code today.)
  • rsoblivionrsoblivion Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Cool. Though it was reported a month ago ;)
    Chris Robert's on SC:
    "You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
  • kitsunesnoutkitsunesnout Member Posts: 1,210 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    jheinig wrote: »
    There's actually a bug in the ship. A fix is in process (I submitted part of the fix code today.)

    And please if any of you may, look at how "a step between the stars" is during the phases against the Undine in the dyson destroyer, it's about nigh impossible on Elite to beat without just letting the friendly NPC's do all the work for almost two hours by you avoiding aggro!
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I had kind of ignored the threads/posts complaining about the Bulwark, cause it hadn't been anything special when I did it at 56. But I decided to do it again, and I'm still not getting it. Not sure what I'm missing here...probably overlooking something simple. But the Vaadwaur from the start of the mission (yes, on Elite) are more dangerous and take far longer (far, far longer) to kill than the Bulwark does. I was actually hoping something had changed since when I initially ran it. It was anticlimatic though...meh.

    That was in a Benthan. The first time had been in a Hazari. Let me try this again in a T5U ship, just a T5U and not a FT5U. Will try it in a D'Kyr.

    And yeah, no, like the Bulwark has to be the easiest and fastest part of that mission. It takes longer to meet up with Tuvok at the beginning than it takes to deal with the Bulwark and it's no more a threat than a sickly Epohh.

    I said I wasn't getting it, that I had to be missing something...and the only thing I can picture is that folks are blowing themselves up. Haven't they fought Bulwarks anywhere else in the game? If you're an energy build with a weak tank...there are times when you just don't shoot at the Bulwark. Wait a moment...then obliterate it.
  • marsupilamimarsupilami Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    If you think that's bad, try a step between the stars on elite and get to the part with the Dyson ship you can't customize, the only chance I stood after the first wave of undine was to not even attack and let the NPC Scimitar and klingon ship do the work with full aggro, for about two hours that went on, I should not have even bothered at that point it was so brokenly impossible to fight! The devs should try playing that as a science character, and I dare them to say that is working as intended!

    And the mission gets worse the closer to 60 you get. That HP scaling...
  • jim625jim625 Member Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    just play the mission on normal and the rest on elite :D
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Heh, I forgot to switch back from Elite to Normal before hitting up an Argala...and yeah, Elite Argala Hirogen vs. the Bulwark on Elite from Alliances...are folks having problems with the Hirogen? Cause if not, they've got to be killing themselves while fighting the Bulwark. Cause outside of Kazon, I'm not sure there's anything weaker in DR than that Bulwark. Folks got to be killing themselves or something...
  • sqwishedsqwished Member Posts: 1,475 Bug Hunter
    edited November 2014
    I've heard people talking about how hard this bulwark is, but I've gone through it with Fleet T5 Galaxy X on elite without to much trouble, I don't understand why people are having such issues with it. I'm appraoching the same mission on one of my KDF toons who is flying a Fleet Mogh (not upgraded yet) so I'll see how that goes.
    Oh, it's not broken? We can soon fix that!

  • toivatoiva Member Posts: 3,276 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    jheinig wrote: »
    There's actually a bug in the ship. A fix is in process (I submitted part of the fix code today.)
    I actually believed it was intended to be harder as to impress the hierarchy (and since you get a substantial help of the Doctor).
    But along with these two replies, I guess that particular ship had the same problem the Vaadwaur Heavy Artillery ships had until the latest patch: Sometimes spawning on Normal and Advanced with Elite specs, and on elite with doubled elite specs.
    I had kind of ignored the threads/posts complaining about the Bulwark, cause it hadn't been anything special when I did it at 56. But I decided to do it again, and I'm still not getting it. Not sure what I'm missing here...probably overlooking something simple. But the Vaadwaur from the start of the mission (yes, on Elite) are more dangerous and take far longer (far, far longer) to kill than the Bulwark does. I was actually hoping something had changed since when I initially ran it. It was anticlimatic though...meh.

    That was in a Benthan. The first time had been in a Hazari. Let me try this again in a T5U ship, just a T5U and not a FT5U. Will try it in a D'Kyr.

    And yeah, no, like the Bulwark has to be the easiest and fastest part of that mission. It takes longer to meet up with Tuvok at the beginning than it takes to deal with the Bulwark and it's no more a threat than a sickly Epohh.

    I said I wasn't getting it, that I had to be missing something...and the only thing I can picture is that folks are blowing themselves up. Haven't they fought Bulwarks anywhere else in the game? If you're an energy build with a weak tank...there are times when you just don't shoot at the Bulwark. Wait a moment...then obliterate it.
    sqwished wrote: »
    I've heard people talking about how hard this bulwark is, but I've gone through it with Fleet T5 Galaxy X on elite without to much trouble, I don't understand why people are having such issues with it. I'm appraoching the same mission on one of my KDF toons who is flying a Fleet Mogh (not upgraded yet) so I'll see how that goes.

    And you two may have been lucky enough to get the correct version of the Bulwark to spawn, while all those complaining got the bugged one (as did I, but I always play story missions on normal, so I had no reason to complain).
    TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class.
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  • js26568js26568 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    The worst thing about these kind of threads is the people who say "I handled it fine, therefore the mission is fine" - are you people insane? Is there really not even a tiny tiny possibility that there is a bug somewhere in this game? Is it so far beyond the realms of possibility that in the rush (it was definitely rushed) to get DR out, mistakes were made?

    Instantly assuming that problems with the game are due to the player's build or play style may be the approach that Cryptic takes but people who have played the game for more than 5 minutes will all know different. You know full well that there are random bugs, crazily high hull points, problems with skill XP levels, problems with NPCs getting stuck somewhere so you can't kill them, problems in STFs that have left some of them totally unfinishable, problems in cut scenes where your player is replaced by one of your bridge officers, problems with Red Alerts with the final NPC ship not showing up at all or showing up with an identical twin... and this is assuming that you can even log in in the first place.

    The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. If something is wrong in DR, it's not the player's fault. It's a BUG.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Free Tibet!
  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    i took on the bulwark with t5u Avenger. Yeah barely beat it, glad I had the nimbus distress call, only reason I survived long enough to kill it.

    Had mostly LVL 12 purple AP cannons and turrets, with the Voth Grav torp and Breen cluster in the back.

    And that was on normal. Elite, frak that people. I don't do elite without help.
    afMSv4g.jpg
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    js26568 wrote: »
    The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. If something is wrong in DR, it's not the player's fault. It's a BUG.

    It's far simpler for some folks to take no responsibility and to blame it on a bug.

    The non-simple route is it to run it multiple times, running it with multiple ships, comparing it to the multiple other enemies within the mission, and even comparing it to other enemies from other missions.

    Personally, I'm getting fed up with folks doing the equivalent of whining while using the sandwich logic routine...cause it goes both ways.

    "Oh, you've got a sandwich so nobody else must be hungry, eh?"
    "Oh, you're hungry so nobody else must have a sandwich, eh?"

    Somebody pointing out that they have not encountered a bug is just as valid feedback as somebody saying they have encountered a bug...because that lets the devs know that it is not something that occurs 100% of the time. It also gives them a look in to how often something may be happening from the player's perspective.

    Some folks are making this out to be something that always happens. Some folks are making this out to be something that you're lucky if it does not happen. Some folks are looking around wondering what other folks are talking about never having had it happen.

    Yes, the simple person would be quick to blame the game and take no responsibility...taking the simple route.

    Folks that believe there is actually a problem there would work with the folks not experiencing the problem and the devs to get the problem resolved. It's where you get into the A) did this with that and B) did that with this, so what happens if A) does that with this and B) does this with that.

    And folks working together have a chance to get things resolved.

    Just because this game is riddled with all sorts of bugs, does not mean that one should instantly assume that a problem they're having is actually a bug...

    ...and discussing things further to get an understanding of how the players experiencing an issue are approaching the task at hand to see if there is any difference compared to the players not experiencing an issue...

    ...while not the simplest thing, it is actually the more helpful thing to address any potential problem - because that information will help the devs if there is some bug and if there is no bug it will help the player complete their goal.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    talonxv wrote: »
    i took on the bulwark with t5u Avenger. Yeah barely beat it, glad I had the nimbus distress call, only reason I survived long enough to kill it.

    Had mostly LVL 12 purple AP cannons and turrets, with the Voth Grav torp and Breen cluster in the back.

    And that was on normal. Elite, frak that people. I don't do elite without help.

    Here's how it's gone for me, just as a comparison - to see how well it matches up to what you experienced...

    Bulwark spawns.
    "Don't shoot me" mode.
    Do a hefty chunk of damage to it.
    The Doctor helps.
    "Don't shoot me" mode.
    Finish it off.

    Hrmm, I'll grab a smoke and then hit it up again to take a look at a parse of what's going on there. Wish we could skip the cutscenes and select which sub-mission to start with, the Voyager stuff combined with the initial fight against the Vaadwaur takes me forever...meh.
  • thlaylierahthlaylierah Member Posts: 2,983 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    alaric63 wrote: »
    "It can't be me!" "IT must be Broken". "Make me Elite again..... without any effort on my part".

    LOL this is how games die.

    It was Elite enough before.

    If a greater challenge is required, try doing it while having a girlfriend.

    That should reset the challenge level.
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