test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Is There a Point to Drain Builds ... or any non DPS Builds?

macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
Seriously! I mean I know PvP is now completely dead for me. Stopped doing with DR complete trashing of non DPS builds. But even with gobs of FC and specced into drain and still can't collapse shields on Borg in advanced infected.

And yes, I do have SA ON and ES and TR. For the spheres, if I stack on everything then it is just enough to bring down the shields for a few seconds. For tac cube, it is impossible (until they get to like 20%). Even singularity cloak with +100 on sicence doesn't work.

How is this not anything but broken?
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

- Judge Aaron Satie
Post edited by macronius on

Comments

  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    macronius wrote: »
    Seriously! I mean I know PvP is now completely dead for me. Stopped doing with DR complete trashing of non DPS builds. But even with gobs of FC and specced into drain and still can't collapse shields on Borg in advanced infected.

    And yes, I do have SA ON and ES and TR. For the spheres, if I stack on everything then it is just enough to bring down the shields for a few seconds. For tac cube, it is impossible (until they get to like 20%). Even singularity cloak with +100 on sicence doesn't work.

    How is this not anything but broken?

    Because they are the Borg and, their resistance in anything but futile. :P
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • the1tiggletthe1tigglet Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    It's been broken for some time now. Tachyon beam is so inneffective it's pretty much part of the long list of Science skills that are completely borked thanks to the science haters at Cryptic.

    It's seriously unprofessional for them to allow this to continue.
  • geckoisalizardgeckoisalizard Member Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    For PvE, completely useless to make a drain build.

    PvP is so hilariously broken, no point in playing PvP
  • ankokunekoankokuneko Member Posts: 318 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    if you want to drain you need tykens rift 3, tyken aftershock doff and at least 300 flowcaps. With 400 flowcaps only players with about 100 insulators and fast speed can avoid the drain, NPC's just sit there
    jFriX.png
  • daqheghdaqhegh Member Posts: 1,490 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    If DPS is not your focus you're doing it wrong. No one does heals in PUGs and healing itself is an exercise in futility. It's pew pew or nothing.
    My Old Blog about things that could and should have been added when I wrote it. Not sure what I want to do with it now. I'll just keep it available now that most of it is outdated.
  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I parked my hybrid drainboats after DR and fell back to a glass cannon. It's funny tho, somehow with all the powercreep my unrepped, unskilled, vanilla mission drop ticklebeam tank lives longer than any of my fully repped and equipped. c-store ship flying, specialty built fleet toons.
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
    giphy.gif

    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
  • futurepastnowfuturepastnow Member Posts: 3,660 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I'd say there's a huge role for hybrid builds. Drain, control, healer... those can all be very important to some missions. But you've got to be able to do enough DPS to remain useful for the times when those abilities aren't needed.

    It takes more thought to build and more work to play, but there are plenty of ships that can pull off this hybrid approach.
  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I'd say there's a huge role for hybrid builds. Drain, control, healer... those can all be very important to some missions. But you've got to be able to do enough DPS to remain useful for the times when those abilities aren't needed.

    It takes more thought to build and more work to play, but there are plenty of ships that can pull off this hybrid approach.

    No doubt, hybrids used to be some make or break ships in the old queues before DR. Now the only thing that matters is DPS. It's not worth the rage on the forums when someone trades 10 seconds every couple of minutes to toss a drain on something instead of melting your guns in the DPS race.
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
    giphy.gif

    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
  • giliongilion Member Posts: 686 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Drain builds, I have no idea about, I didnt even know it was possible to drain enough power from NPCs to bring things offline even before DR. As for other builds, Tanking and Healing is actually useful now. Most PUGs wont appreciate it but I have saved so many people from popping by drawing aggro and sending out a heal now and then.
    _____________________________________________________
    Anyone want to give me a Temporal Heavy Dreadnought pack? I'll be your friend :D
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited November 2014
    Only 1 sci build shines in PvE, part gens. The rest have been rendered useless thanks to DR's dumb approach to making the game harder.
  • pwstolemynamepwstolemyname Member Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Only 1 sci build shines in PvE, part gens. The rest have been rendered useless thanks to DR's dumb approach to making the game harder.

    Not true Luch80. Grav gens are still alive and well.
  • kozar2kozar2 Member Posts: 602 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Not true Luch80. Grav gens are still alive and well.

    I'm guessing that reading is not one of your strong points.
  • kitsunesnoutkitsunesnout Member Posts: 1,210 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Oh yeah, I'm one of those who still uses 5 graviton gen consoles along with Romulan deflector and other means to boost the stat as high as possible, I love smashing as many ships as possible together, and I can definitely save the day in any mission as long as I have team mates with enough firepower to help kill the clumped ships. Sure I might be one of those who doesn't have much DPS, but that build is hilariously powerful at keeping masses of enemies where you want them away from objectives!
  • hipachilleshipachilles Member Posts: 195 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Not true Luch80. Grav gens are still alive and well.
    kozar2 wrote: »
    I'm guessing that reading is not one of your strong points.

    Not sure what you mean here - the two are very related, but not necessarily the same. Part gens does the damage, especially with the Particle Manipulator trait, and often does it directly to hull. Both GW and TBR use PG to do damage and GG for the strength of their repels.

    But if I may be so bold, I think the tactic pwstole is referring to is to boost grav gens, then use a Grav Well or TBR with the reverse direction DOFF to grab anyone withing 15km into a ball and AOE them all to instadeath.

    Speaking from experience, the tactic is still viable, expecially when boosted by PrtGen damage abilities or torpedo damage, since Aux will be high and weapon power low.
  • darramouss1darramouss1 Member Posts: 1,811 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Hey, hipachilles, thank you for your forum signature. I would never have picked him there. Make we want to play the Cones of Dunshire!!

    On a completely different topic, that scene depicts how STO should have been made. Agile ships like the defiant duck and weave to protect themselves, large ships like the Enterprise protect themselves through raw shield power and can take more abuse.

    Oh, if only the makers of STO watched that battle before they made the game!!
  • knuhteb5knuhteb5 Member Posts: 1,831 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Drains builds are pointless now. DPS is king in most of the PVe events since the more dps you have, the faster you finish events. At most, you could do some tractor beam repulsor builds since particle gens are still decent.
    aGHGQIKr41KNi.gif
  • pwstolemynamepwstolemyname Member Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    But if I may be so bold, I think the tactic pwstole is referring to is to boost grav gens, then use a Grav Well or TBR with the reverse direction DOFF to grab anyone withing 15km into a ball and AOE them all to instadeath.

    Speaking from experience, the tactic is still viable, expecially when boosted by PrtGen damage abilities or torpedo damage, since Aux will be high and weapon power low.

    Yup, mega well builds can exceed 15km these days, thanks to mk XIV gear. The more enemies you can catch the more times your damage.

    Oh but it wont work with tractor atractors sadly. Pull strength is multiplied by grav gens but not range.
  • kitsunesnoutkitsunesnout Member Posts: 1,210 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Oh and don't forget the psychological warfare trait as well, it's a must have for gravity well builds, definitely increases the strength (and I think the radius too, but not sure) even more! For maximum results use torpedo spread 3 with [Gravimetric Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk XII] if no one else already mentioned it. Just wait until the cluster is as tight as it'll get, and the result of that is absolutely devastating and great in in say the mirror queue.

    I can't wait to see how a slotting of fully upgraded grav consoles will boost mine, it will be terrifyingly large! There is just no other way I like to play sci in space and why I gave up other DPS builds, it's just too darn much fun! I use the universal LTC seat in the Vesta for the torp spread 3, but I think I'm going to love the Dauntless because it'll go so very well with this build.
  • hipachilleshipachilles Member Posts: 195 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Hey, hipachilles, thank you for your forum signature. I would never have picked him there. Make we want to play the Cones of Dunshire!!!

    My friend, you are in for a treat.
    On a completely different topic, that scene depicts how STO should have been made. Agile ships like the defiant duck and weave to protect themselves, large ships like the Enterprise protect themselves through raw shield power and can take more abuse.

    Oh, if only the makers of STO watched that battle before they made the game!!

    Yeah, I think initially they tried with escorts (high defense, low shield, med hull), cruisers (low defense, mid shield, high hull), and science (med defense, low hull, high shield) but that fell apart once all healing abilities went through the roof. Hard to be realistic to canon when a ship can go from only 10% held together up to nearly 90% in a matter of seconds.

    That being said, I think the high-defense stat of escorts in PVP still has a role against cruisers which are nigh unkillable with a good captain. So in that regard, they are fairly close to canon.
    Oh but it wont work with tractor atractors sadly. Pull strength is multiplied by grav gens but not range.

    Good to know. Thanks.

    Of course, on reflection, none of my comments say anything with regards to drain builds. In my opinion they served their purpose for awhile, but for PVE it just doesn't work as well now. Not saying it won't work, but when you have a million hit points to get through, time-per-kill is a serious concern. If you aren't high DPS you either need to have control plus splash damage leading to multipliers or good debuffs leading to multipliers (likely from teammates). A drain only works if you have shields disabled, from what I have seen so far.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    The question of the op is simply wrong. You can still go full CC/Drain/Heal, even if its on a wells (which can feature no tac BO if wanted), and still do 5k+, if you use Torps. Torps are the saving grace for Sciships, as they do high damage even if they dont get enhanced by Skills and consoles. They only loose to beams/cannons, because those can be enhance far better then torps. So for ships with limited tactical slots torps win.

    If you use the right torps, then even shields dont matter much. Especially on a Drain build with TR3 shields wont matter you for anything less then a tactical cube.

    The beginnerbuild would be harpeng, breen cluster, photon. The photon would later be replaced by rom hyperplasma, and the harpeng with gravimetric photon. The breen cluster stays, it is hellish on a ship with 3 projectile officers.

    My attrox flies with that setup, enemies then to be... defenseless. Which translates to then need of less dps (sphere mob+TR3 is complete shutdown, and no shields means fast destruction). So those builds are still viable.
  • pwstolemynamepwstolemyname Member Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I can definitely save the day in any mission as long as I have team mates with enough firepower to help kill the clumped ships. Sure I might be one of those who doesn't have much DPS

    Your probably doing more DPS then you think. Depending upon the number of enemies you well your DPS is being multiplied by a large degree, more so if your tossing in gravimetric torpedo spreads. Torpedo spread might have a limited number of targets, but the mini wells they leave behind are limitless like the normal gravity well so you can stack it high.

    I run some of my mega well builds with [PhP] locators rather then energy type and really don't feel any loss for doing so. In fact, so long as your not fighting less then 3 enemies at a time you can sustain 20k+ DPS, and spike 60k+ for short periods. Sure that's not much compared to Mr fire at will 100k DPS scimitar, but its more then most people think you can do with science and torpedo's.
    Oh and don't forget the psychological warfare trait as well, it's a must have for gravity well builds, definitely increases the strength (and I think the radius too, but not sure)

    Sadly psychological warfare dose not increase radius. Only pull strength, but that dose indirectly boost your damage by keeping enemies closer to the center where they take more.

    I can't wait to see how a slotting of fully upgraded grav consoles will boost mine, it will be terrifyingly large! There is just no other way I like to play sci in space and why I gave up other DPS builds, it's just too darn much fun! I use the universal LTC seat in the Vesta for the torp spread 3, but I think I'm going to love the Dauntless because it'll go so very well with this build.

    You will love the Dauntless, throwing ionic turbulence 1 into your gravity well will more then make up for the loss of pets and duel heavy cannons thanks to the damage resistance debuff.

    With regards to the radius of your well. I have done a lot of testing using friends as targets to mesure range. Unfortunately gravity well connects to your ships hitbox, rather then to the center from which distance measurements are displayed so it is impossible to take entirely accurate measurements of range.

    However I have two working formula which you can use to approximate the size of a well. I wish I had enough data to narrow down which one is actually correct.

    Theory Alpha:
    Gravity Well 1

    Radius in Km = 0.015*GG+2.5

    Gravity Well 2

    Radius in Km = 0.015*GG+2.75

    Gravity Well 3

    Radius in Km = 0.015*GG+3

    Theory Beta:
    Gravity Well 1

    Radius in Km = 0.014*GG+2.5

    Gravity Well 2

    Radius in Km = 0.015*GG+2.5

    Gravity Well 3

    Radius in Km = 0.016*GG+2.5

    GG stands for graviton generator skill. Aux power dose not effect radius size, only pull strength so it was left out of the equation.

    I believe that the first theory is correct. However while it dose fit most of my test results, theory beta dose fit a fair number of results as well, so I can not rule it out. It is also possible that neither one of these theories is in fact true, but without the ability to take more accurate measurements in game these are the best I could do.

    As I assume you will be using gravity well 3 I am confident enough that you can find the diameter of your well by taking your graviton generators skill level, multiplying it by 0.015, adding 3 and doubling the result.

    So if your graviton generators are at 300 then your well is 15km, add the romulan rep power(100) and its 18km. For a 20km well you would need 467 skill points. So you would need 367 before using the romulan rep power, which I believe is achievable now, provided your willing to put some ungodly EC into it.


    Sorry for taking your thread off topic macronius. I have still been able to shutdown some enemies in DR with my drain builds. But it is certainly more difficult in some content then in others. And certain new NPCs just refuse to loose engine power, which is annoying because I can shut down everything else they do. I think they have a blanket immunity to movment debuffs that overrides a lack of engine power actualy.... but I digress.
Sign In or Register to comment.