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chaosgod777
Member Posts: 237 Arc User
Since it's push to live I have seen a huge increase in players who are complaining about the cost of the upgrade system. I was one of them since it was still on tribble. For some reason I was running numbers through my head the other day and decided to do a full calculation. My findings made me not only admit I was wrong but I could not offer a single argument against the system at that point.
Let me start out by apologizing to cryptic for my part in fanning flames with the upgrade system up to this point. I have solid numbers that prove to me that the dilithium cost tacked on to the system actually equal sensible numbers once you know the trick. These numbers were obtained by actual testing and using many items to determine overall cost.
These numbers are based on using Superior tech upgrades and no accelerators.
Regular Items (this includes fleet gear)
Ship Equipment and Weapons MK-XII 6900dil, Mk-XIII 12650dil
Consoles Mk-XII 2300dil, Mk-XIII 4600dil
Ground items Mk-XII 5750dil, Mk-XIII 10350dil
Set items (special named sets obtainable)
Ship Equipment and weapons Mk-XII 12650dil, Mk-XIII 25300dil
Consoles Mk-XII 3450dil, Mk-XIII 6900dil
Ground Items Mk-XII 6900dil, Mk-XIII 13800dil
granted with blue or green upgrades this cost goes up considerably. These numbers are more in line with recent costs of getting a new item from vendors. These prices are even better then fleet to get most new items. I am still not a fan of the dilithium cost tacked on to each input, however I find the new system more reasonable then I previously thought.
when you stop to consider the elements that make up dilithium and its current gating we come back to the fact that it is a time gated marks system. Like other MMO's Cryptic wants us to take time to earn up our gear like other mmo's, unlike other mmo's they offer a way for players to get it all immediately using currency.
No matter the communities gripe about dilithium cost it's meant to be a time investment first and foremost, the players who want it faster can throw in a little money and get it done quicker...then what?! Complain there is nothing to do. I feel the pricing on each item's upgrade cost is fair especially when compared to other mmo's with time gate marks.
An argument can be made that it's pay to win...essentially it's true, but then thats true of almost any MMO using a F2P matrix. When I compare the price to things like fleet gear and how long it would take to earn for each piece its actually better to upgrade, and better still to upgrade fleet gear. I do not say any of this lightly as I'm likely one of the many who will use real money to do the upgrading.
Other tech upgrade rarity's cost less dilithium but also give far less tech points. 900dil for 5000tp and 700dil for 2000tp. If people chose to go the quick route they will pay a ton more. fair trade. If they go the mid way they will still pay more then my numbers but not near as expensive as the quick route. If players choose to invest the time to get their r&d up, no rushing, make all superior tech upgrades, it will be at or about the prices I listed. Keep in mind my numbers DO NOT INCLUDE any critical's or accelerators. In all likely hood the amount I have listed COULD be far less.
Be smart, save up, buy purples,Take the time, and ALWAYS use accelerators!
Let me start out by apologizing to cryptic for my part in fanning flames with the upgrade system up to this point. I have solid numbers that prove to me that the dilithium cost tacked on to the system actually equal sensible numbers once you know the trick. These numbers were obtained by actual testing and using many items to determine overall cost.
These numbers are based on using Superior tech upgrades and no accelerators.
Regular Items (this includes fleet gear)
Ship Equipment and Weapons MK-XII 6900dil, Mk-XIII 12650dil
Consoles Mk-XII 2300dil, Mk-XIII 4600dil
Ground items Mk-XII 5750dil, Mk-XIII 10350dil
Set items (special named sets obtainable)
Ship Equipment and weapons Mk-XII 12650dil, Mk-XIII 25300dil
Consoles Mk-XII 3450dil, Mk-XIII 6900dil
Ground Items Mk-XII 6900dil, Mk-XIII 13800dil
granted with blue or green upgrades this cost goes up considerably. These numbers are more in line with recent costs of getting a new item from vendors. These prices are even better then fleet to get most new items. I am still not a fan of the dilithium cost tacked on to each input, however I find the new system more reasonable then I previously thought.
when you stop to consider the elements that make up dilithium and its current gating we come back to the fact that it is a time gated marks system. Like other MMO's Cryptic wants us to take time to earn up our gear like other mmo's, unlike other mmo's they offer a way for players to get it all immediately using currency.
No matter the communities gripe about dilithium cost it's meant to be a time investment first and foremost, the players who want it faster can throw in a little money and get it done quicker...then what?! Complain there is nothing to do. I feel the pricing on each item's upgrade cost is fair especially when compared to other mmo's with time gate marks.
An argument can be made that it's pay to win...essentially it's true, but then thats true of almost any MMO using a F2P matrix. When I compare the price to things like fleet gear and how long it would take to earn for each piece its actually better to upgrade, and better still to upgrade fleet gear. I do not say any of this lightly as I'm likely one of the many who will use real money to do the upgrading.
Other tech upgrade rarity's cost less dilithium but also give far less tech points. 900dil for 5000tp and 700dil for 2000tp. If people chose to go the quick route they will pay a ton more. fair trade. If they go the mid way they will still pay more then my numbers but not near as expensive as the quick route. If players choose to invest the time to get their r&d up, no rushing, make all superior tech upgrades, it will be at or about the prices I listed. Keep in mind my numbers DO NOT INCLUDE any critical's or accelerators. In all likely hood the amount I have listed COULD be far less.
Be smart, save up, buy purples,Take the time, and ALWAYS use accelerators!
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Captain I don't understand it, there's actually measurable readings of logic coming from the forums. This anomaly has never been seen before, what a great opportunity for scientific research!
Oh no!!! The indigenous species of rage monsters on this planet are viciously attacking the logical OP!!!
Ok I'm done. +1 to you op, and have a cookie while you're at it.
Or am i misreading what;
Mk-XII 5750dil, Mk-XIII 10350dil
means.
Because that could be easy.
true enough. The point though was to show that getting to mk-XIV isnt that expensive. at which point the only reason to upgrade is the rarity if you so want to get that epic gear. Keep in mind there is a chance while upgrading that you will get the rarity anyway. So overall the system is well rounded.
The other way to do it is spend the dilithium as I have posted it and use upgrade research accelerators to get the rarity bonus with each input. this way rarity is mostly done before reaching mk-XIV and you avoid paying the mk-XIV upgrade cost alltogether.
Dont get me wrong, I was one of those people until a day ago when I finally sat down and did the math. I think that's what was missing. There was very little time between testing release and push to live so many people only saw the green high dilithium price and went nuts. They should have waited a week or so until people found the nembers before release. also there should have been more information available to testers. That being said numbers don't lie and I can't find any argument with them.
How cheap/easy is it to get those very rare upgrade kits?
Just buy low mark purple equipment and run through the upgrades and it works out similarly to the overall cost the high end stuff would be anyway.
What makes it difficult and unappealing to me at least though is that dilithium is getting even harder to acquire at the same time as being required by more and more projects. You can stick with the time gates yes, but even then you'll only have enough dilithium each day for maybe a small amount of upgrading. Then you add in the as yet unspecified amount needed to upgrade your T5 ships, or buy the new T6 ones and i'm loathe to spend any dilithium until I know the score.
And I won't be putting any more real cash into the game until I see where its heading, at the moment it looks like a bit of a cash grab to be honest.
Not true. Fleet gear at Mk-XII generally costs at least 50k dilithium as it stands now. If the trend of the cost increase were to continue with fleet gear Mk-XIV fleet gear would cost around 75k to 100k dilithium. It would not maintain current cost, It would increase! This is proven by the fleet gear themselves. look at the cost of a Mk-X and XI vs the XII, you can calculate a price curve from that alone. Now, I dont remember if the recent cost decrease in dilithium affected fleet in any way as it has been ages since I looked at fleet stores but one thing remained constant, the price curve.
It is more cost effective to upgrade then to buy new, so long as your using superior tech upgrades and accelerators. To answer another question above, upgrades and accelerators, I see them drop all over the place. Do missions on elite, do elite queue's and youll have your shot at many. the upgrades can be made by anyone who has level 15 in an R&D school. Even the blue upgrades are better to make then going the green buy from a vendor route.
Are you saying you play other games that don't make you spend time earning some type of mark to exchange for endgame gear? Dilithium is not hard to aquire by a long shot. It's 100x easier now then when it was first introduced 2 years ago.
The tier 5u ships do not require any dilithium to upgrade nor does t6. the only component dilithium will play in either of those is if you use it to get zen and then get your ship. that's a lot of dilithium though. you would be better off just buying the zen and saving your hard earned dilithium. If you cant buy it and require the dilithium to zen however that is entirely understandable. I feel you on the cash grab comment, I felt as much when the upgrade system went to tribble. but lets face it, its meant to be a time gate. Players will ultimately not care, throw money at it and have it all day 1. others will have to earn everything, but in the end the free players who dont throw money at it get a sense of accomplishment once they do get it, the others get emptier wallets. simple as that.
I think this expansion brings with it many new ways for players to succeed in STO for years to come. The first thing we all have to do is clear our heads and remember that dilithium does not equal money! just another form of generated in-game cash that players trade to others for something else. Now It would be a cash grab if they tacked on zen prices to everything!
Most well-designed RPGs are like that (look up Bioware some time, or Bethesda). You run through each dungeon once, collect your gear, collect your XP, go on to the next dungeon. The only time you replay a mission is when you want to try different approaches and see if you get different outcomes for doing so. The idea of replaying the same mission over and over and over again isn't really a game anymore, and instead a chore on par with doing the dishes. Why would anyone want more grind?
It takes integrity to own one's mistakes -- and the willingness to address them, even with some humility. Thank you, chaosgod777, for sharing your updated findings. It ought to be interesting to run the math and further understand the results you came up with. Well done.
HOWEVER. upgrading to "black raspberry" or gold is insane. I've gotten a couple black raspberries by chance. I tried for one. That will be the one and only I try for. It's a suckers trick.
Maybe play around with level 2 stuff but other than that I will stick to red raspberry quality and be very happy with the upgrade system.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
True enough, but those are RPG's NOT MMO's there is a huge difference in the two. Massive Multiplayer Online, In a game type such as this you can not afford to have your players get all the best shot on the first go. That is bad for long term life of the game and for business as well.
Thank you.
Per to my prior post right now it is cheaper to buy fleet at the moment however if it upgraded to include Mk-XIII and mk-XIV gear the price doubbles every time as is shown in all previous marks in fleet stores. so at XIII its 20000 and XIV its 40000 for advanced stuff. Elite becomes XIII 30000 and XIV 60000 dilithium per item. the upgrade cost is far cheaper.
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On Tribble - a level 14 item will have it's rarity increase chance increase every time you run the project. So the first time you run it, you have 4 or 5 percent chance for upgrade. THe next time 8 -10 percent chance to upgrade. The next time 15 or 16 percent chance to upgrade.
It's still expensive - but you never get locked behind a 'pure chance door'. You will eventually get a guaranteed ultra rare/epic if you're patient and willing to pay.
The basic upgrade cost to mk xiv is pretty fair in my opinion. It isn't even that bad if you jump the timegates with dilithium.
Please enlighten me as to which MMOs Bethesda has to offer? I hear often how poor their games are due to bug/glitches and player mods work better vs OE.
their company has a very poor track record with games, i still remember the farce with star trek legacy... so yeah, thats not a surprise they have a poor rating. EAware has a hit and miss situation with its games and mmo community generally, some games can get the personal attention of bioware employees but like swtor, its all cut and paste bot using a word search.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
That is a glitch currently. on tribble the stats do change. I assume because the system isn't up there in its complete form yet that there are some glitches. wait to upgrade until dr releases.
thats what i am talking about if they would just released console we would payed less and had no time gate. But they didnt
You craft these at level 15 for each school.
They sell on the exchange some for 600,000 some for closer to a million. This price will come down for many (that use cheap materials) when more people get to 15. Beams will come down below 100,000 for example.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Great info OP !!
I never said it was cheap in ec. I stated that's how you reduce the dilithium cost. nothing more.
If you want it cheap, you make all the tech upgrades yourself or have a friend who can do it, do it. and accelerators you can find as drops. save em till you have enough.
Agree. I upgraded the Borg engine to Mk XIII UR on one of my toons and I don't think I'll be doing it for anything else. The cost in both materials and dil was insane and the extra modifier I got (AUX) was definitely not worth it.
1. The R&D system takes way too long. It's the only system in the entire game with a HUGE difference between the daily project and the overall XP to get to 20. 2,400,000 total XP I think to get to twenty and the daily gives 6,000. What?! o_O
Not even the Doff Commendations are that low, max XP is 100,000 and you can slot like 20 projects worth 50 each
2. Gold rarity, Crit chances are just waaaaay to low for it.
3. Warp Core upgrade. Mk XII to XIII gives you only a +1 to engine performance? Huh?! With all the stats that Warp Cores have, we're upgrading for a +1 to engine?
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Skyrim, Fallout, Mass Effect, Dragon Age. Just because a game becomes multiplayer doesn't mean it has to be grindtastic. The genre is MMO-RPG right? Heck SWTOR, I've been working on for three months now, the only time I've ever repeated a mission was when doing so with a different character with a very different approach. If I've completed a quarter of that game yet I'll be surprised. They CAN make massive RPGs that aren't grind dependent and still have months and months of stuff to do.