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Thanks for killing my Romulan, Cryptic

darthmeow504darthmeow504 Member Posts: 2,302 Arc User
edited September 2014 in Star Trek Online General Discussion
I have been passing the time before Delta Rising by starting a Romulan character and going through story missions with her. I just hit a major road block in the form of the Mind Games mission.

Quite simply put, I absolutely refuse to mutilate an innocent (and attractive) Romulan woman to death with Borg implants, period. I struggled with it in the course of the mission, found no way around it, and finally hit the "beam out" button. I cannot finish that mission but without it, my story progress and in-character continuity is destroyed. Basically, this mission kills my character because it forces her to go in directions that are absolutely beyond the pale. I might as well delete her at this point and say she killed herself to save that woman.

This is like Devide et Impera all over again, where we're railroaded into committing atrocities. Except with that I could at least say to myself "I ALWAYS set to stun and I'm not breaking that policy here, the game just doesn't have a mechanic for stun", you directly and explicitly are expected to torture a woman to death in this mission. I refuse. My character might not have a choice, but I do. I'll quit the game first.

My immersion with the character and interest in continuing with her is severely shaken by this.
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Post edited by darthmeow504 on
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    lan451lan451 Member Posts: 3,386 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Skip it and pretend it never happened. That's what I do with Divide et Impera.
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    fatman592fatman592 Member Posts: 1,207 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Well, to get to this point in the story, you have already killed a few thousand crew on ships. So what's one more? You can blame it on being under some Tal Shiar influence if you'd like.

    Across my seven toons and two years (on and off) of game play, I've killed hundreds of millions if not billions of sentient lifeforms. The game is all about pew pew.
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    ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    This is a perfect example of RP going too far..
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    quistraquistra Member Posts: 214 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    This mission is supposed to make you uncomfortable.
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    jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,802 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    You realize the story for that missions hands you on a silver platter a perfectly sensible cop-out?

    Your character is undergoing a form of brainwashing. She can't be held accountable for her actions. The various terrible things she does may be wildly out of character, but that's the point - she isn't herself.

    When it's all over, your character will never have to do anything like that ever again, and it gives you a pretty potent story reason to despise the Tal Shiar even more.
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    imruinedimruined Member Posts: 1,457 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    darthmeow504 wrote: »
    I have been passing the time before Delta Rising by starting a Romulan character and going through story missions with her. I just hit a major road block in the form of the Mind Games mission.

    Quite simply put, I absolutely refuse to mutilate an innocent (and attractive) Romulan woman to death with Borg implants, period. I struggled with it in the course of the mission, found no way around it, and finally hit the "beam out" button. I cannot finish that mission but without it, my story progress and in-character continuity is destroyed. Basically, this mission kills my character because it forces her to go in directions that are absolutely beyond the pale. I might as well delete her at this point and say she killed herself to save that woman.

    This is like Devide et Impera all over again, where we're railroaded into committing atrocities. Except with that I could at least say to myself "I ALWAYS set to stun and I'm not breaking that policy here, the game just doesn't have a mechanic for stun", you directly and explicitly are expected to torture a woman to death in this mission. I refuse. My character might not have a choice, but I do. I'll quit the game first.

    My immersion with the character and interest in continuing with her is severely shaken by this.

    Personally, I found this to be one of the best episodes in the Romulan story line as it did evoke far more of an emotional response than many of the others...

    Question, let's say they did something similar where you're assimilated and then forced to follow the directives of The Collective, before being liberated... Would you just stop and quit this one too if it involved assimilating/killing others?

    The reason I ask, this is exactly what happened to Picard... Such an event would actually open up alot of RP opportunities - ie, your character is then driven to atone for their actions, even if they were not in control of them...
    ashkrik23 wrote: »
    This is a perfect example of RP going too far..

    Yep, I don't understand it personally...
    The entitlement is strong in these forums...

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    reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Without spoilers, I will say you want to finish it up. Yes it makes you do evil. Thats the point of the mission and the kind of person you're up against in Hakeev. Sometimes good people get pulled into bad things (Picard at Wolf 359). Let it be a character-defining moment, when you saw the face of what the RSE had become, in person not just as a statistic, and redoubled your resolve to make them pay!

    No reason you can't make it a part of your character, RP or no. :D
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    stonewbiestonewbie Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Yup as mentioned you are being brainwashed by the Tal Shiar. Same thing happened to Geordi in episode 24 Season 4. And wouldnt you know it that episode was called "The Mind's Eye". IMO a fictional war story with clear good and bad guys where good guys have no flaws and never, ever do any bad (not even once) and bad guys that never, ever do good is pretty boring. That includes good guys who never do bad even involuntarily. Star Wars did the same thing with Luke very briefly going all darko side-o when Vader kept taunting him. And of course in the prequels where Anakin goes from good to evil.

    If anybody asks me, for the OP to get offended by something like this makes me thing they are just in a trolling mood.
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    jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,133 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Hey OP? this is a game not real life so get a grip ok

    Just remember its just a game its not real life your not hurting anything just a pixelated character in an imaginary universe.

    and if you fell this strongly then quit the game and go play farmville or something like that.
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    stonewbiestonewbie Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    jorantomalak wrote: »
    and if you fell this strongly then quit the game and go play farmville or something like that.

    If you dont take care of your plants in Farmville wont they die there too?
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    jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,133 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    stonewbie wrote: »
    If you dont take care of your plants in Farmville wont they die there too?

    Oh your right lots of bad things there too oh dear oh my oh golly gee willikers :eek:
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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,369 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Pay attention to the other parts of that mission - say, where you're assembling the thalaron device, or when you have to shoot your friend (who turns out to be a hologram, but still).

    You are literally being forced to do these things. You can resist (and in fact there's a perk for resisting at every opportunity), but eventually either your hand will be guided or your senses will be scrambled so that you think you're doing one thing, but turn out to be doing another. It's not a moral choice your character is making - the moral choice your character gets is to resist, or to just go along with it (there's a perk for that, too, but I've never earned it).

    As well, if you play through it, you'll be just as happy you did the implanting - it comes in really handy later, after you've recovered your agency.

    The entire arc gave Nniol tr'Keiniadh a real reason to hate the Tal'Shiar in general, and Col. Hakeev in particular. It made Hakeev's eventual fate at Nniol's hands so much more satisfying...
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    kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Member Posts: 1,606 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    As everyone else has pointed out, YOU'RE BEING BRAINWASHED! Your character cannot be held responsible for any of the atrocities they commit in that mission because they aren't doing them willingly. They're being compelled by the Tal Shiar programming that they stuffed in your character's head.
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    jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,133 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    jonsills wrote: »
    Pay attention to the other parts of that mission - say, where you're assembling the thalaron device, or when you have to shoot your friend (who turns out to be a hologram, but still).

    You are literally being forced to do these things. You can resist (and in fact there's a perk for resisting at every opportunity), but eventually either your hand will be guided or your senses will be scrambled so that you think you're doing one thing, but turn out to be doing another. It's not a moral choice your character is making - the moral choice your character gets is to resist, or to just go along with it (there's a perk for that, too, but I've never earned it).

    As well, if you play through it, you'll be just as happy you did the implanting - it comes in really handy later, after you've recovered your agency.

    The entire arc gave Nniol tr'Keiniadh a real reason to hate the Tal'Shiar in general, and Col. Hakeev in particular. It made Hakeev's eventual fate at Nniol's hands so much more satisfying...

    Ive gotten both accolades for that missions after all as ive mentioned its just a game why over think it your not hurting anyone so why get all upset over nothing.
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    thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Is this thread an example of people not bothering to pay attention to the text of the Mission so they really have no idea why they are doing what they are doing?
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
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    magusofborgmagusofborg Member Posts: 186 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    darthmeow504 wrote: »

    My immersion with the character and interest in continuing with her is severely shaken by this.

    It's only a game, if you are unable to keep emotions and gameplay separate, then you might have issues that require care.
    I find this thread offensive since it seems to imply that Cryptic has a responsibility to cater to your mental disorders.
    Joined August 2009
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    jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,133 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    Is this thread an example of people not bothering to pay attention to the text of the Mission so they really have no idea why they are doing what they are doing?

    Its about the OP getting emotionally mixed from the mission when it comes to force assimilating a rom girl during the mission.
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    jonsills wrote: »
    Pay attention to the other parts of that mission - say, where you're assembling the thalaron device, or when you have to shoot your friend (who turns out to be a hologram, but still).

    You are literally being forced to do these things. You can resist (and in fact there's a perk for resisting at every opportunity), but eventually either your hand will be guided or your senses will be scrambled so that you think you're doing one thing, but turn out to be doing another. It's not a moral choice your character is making - the moral choice your character gets is to resist, or to just go along with it (there's a perk for that, too, but I've never earned it).

    As well, if you play through it, you'll be just as happy you did the implanting - it comes in really handy later, after you've recovered your agency.

    The entire arc gave Nniol tr'Keiniadh a real reason to hate the Tal'Shiar in general, and Col. Hakeev in particular. It made Hakeev's eventual fate at Nniol's hands so much more satisfying...
    The bit with the epohhs is particularly hilarious. In part because it's fun to watch them get disintegrated, but also because of the tal-shiar woman's reaction to seeing you choose to transport them into the ship instead of disintegrating them.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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    thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    jorantomalak wrote: »
    Its about the OP getting emotionally mixed from the mission when it comes to force assimilating a rom girl during the mission.
    What can I say. I cried like a baby for a week when I had to destroy all those Jem'hadar eggs with my Fed. :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,369 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    magusofborg wrote: »
    I find this thread offensive since it seems to imply that Cryptic has a responsibility to cater to your mental disorders.
    Not wanting to commit atrocities, even fictional atrocities, is hardly a "mental disorder". It merely indicates someone who is strongly devoted to the alignment of Good. This is not a bad thing.

    My point is that you can stay on the good side by resisting the temptation to give in, to do things the easy way. You'll still do them (unless the whole thing is a prolonged induced hallucination - that would be a valid interpretation of events as well), but it will be in spite of yourself, not because of yourself.
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    mazinger2010mazinger2010 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Had a similar experience with the mission initially looking for the proper Upstanding Hero response. Remember the episode Chain of Command in ST:TNG. That is basically the situation your looking at. Picard was brainwashed, could even see 5 lights. The consolation in this is, ultimately you DID choose to free the captive woman, and when you looked up from what your hands had done at the console, there was the implant mutilating her. That's the resolution of it, that is the events that happened, and in a very real sense when someone is brainwashed that is what happens. You swear you seen yourself NOT do that action, and yet... you did it. That is what makes this mission so awesome and mind bending in that it shows the limits of human, or Romulan, resistance. It recognizes that yes, your a good person, you made the choice NOT to do this. Even so, you can be manipulated outside of your own choices.

    That said, they should have shown your character being tortured more I hate to say it. Electrical jolts, things like that, pressuring your body to act outside of your will. However, if I were using holotechnology to break someones will I suppose convincing them that even though they seemed to do something, another thing happened against their will would eventually wear them down...

    The Tal Shiar is devious indeed....
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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,369 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    markhawkman wrote: »
    The bit with the epohhs is particularly hilarious. In part because it's fun to watch them get disintegrated, but also because of the tal-shiar woman's reaction to seeing you choose to transport them into the ship instead of disintegrating them.
    If you get up next to the window, you can revive them as if they were friendlies. Zombie epohhs!!
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
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    originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Out of all the things that are happening on the news and around the world, a video game character should be the last of your worries.

    Oh and I am sick of people who find any reason to be offended. It's annoying.
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    magusofborgmagusofborg Member Posts: 186 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    jonsills wrote: »
    Not wanting to commit atrocities, even fictional atrocities, is hardly a "mental disorder". It merely indicates someone who is strongly devoted to the alignment of Good. This is not a bad thing.

    The concept of "good" and "evil" is irrelevant in this case. It's fiction, pure and simple. No good deeds nor can any evil deeds be accomplished in this little video game. The inability to separate your emotions from the linear storyline does indeed point to a mental disorder. Also the concept of good and it's "alignment" is open to individual interpretation. It's more accurate to say the individual is devoted to his own individual perception of good which could be perceived as flawed in this case.
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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,369 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    originalspock wrote: »
    Oh and I am sick of people who find any reason to be offended. It's annoying.
    Well, I'm offended at people who are offended at people who are offended! What do you say to that?
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    jonsills wrote: »
    If you get up next to the window, you can revive them as if they were friendlies. Zombie epohhs!!
    I'll have to try that! :D
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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    jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,133 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    What can I say. I cried like a baby for a week when I had to destroy all those Jem'hadar eggs with my Fed. :)

    I bawled like a baby after i had to kill the borg drones on defera :(

    still brings a tear to me eye :D
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