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Cannon Scatter Volly III or Rapid fire III

zero2362zero2362 Member Posts: 436 Arc User
edited August 2014 in The Academy
Long story short. I have a tempest. Im making an aux2bat build so i only have one tac boff and i cant decide which of these cannon skills to use. The basic descriptions make them sound very similar
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Post edited by zero2362 on
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Comments

  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    CSV is Area of Effect, CRF is single target.
  • somebobsomebob Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    For the most part you'll come across packs of enemies instead of just one enemy. So IMHO, CSV > RF.
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  • zero2362zero2362 Member Posts: 436 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Thanks so scatter volley it is then
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  • bendalekbendalek Member Posts: 1,781 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    CSV can be devastating if used correctly ... My usual tactic with groups of peons (smaller enemy craft) is to use Gravity Well (if you have access to it) and then CSV, and let the Warp Core Breaches tidy up up for you.

    It's also handy on massive targets like Borg Cubes, and if you're close enough, some of the larger enemy ships such as the Voth use.

    You should always keep a version of CRF handy though, for those individual targets that are a little tougher than others, like some of the Tholian Ships for instance.
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  • simeion1simeion1 Member Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I would settle for scatter volley 2 over scatter volley 3. The only differnce is a five percent increase in damage. For you commander level ability I would pick an attack pattern. In STFs APB3 rules.
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  • dgdolphdgdolph Member Posts: 592 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    PvP -> CRF
    PvE -> CSV

    :cool:
  • szerontzurszerontzur Member Posts: 2,724 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    simeion1 wrote: »
    I would settle for scatter volley 2 over scatter volley 3. The only differnce is a five percent increase in damage. For you commander level ability I would pick an attack pattern. In STFs APB3 rules.

    This.

    TT1, TS2/THY2, CSV2, APB3.
    or
    TT1, CSV1, APO1, APB3.
  • razar2380razar2380 Member Posts: 1,187 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    If the only tac station you have is commander, then I prefer this:

    TT1, CRF1, CSV2, APO3.

    By using this build, it allows for dropping shields on multiple small targets, and spreading single targets. Also, the APO3 helps with damage. By doing this setup, it will work for all non-PVP content.
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  • simeion1simeion1 Member Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    razar2380 wrote: »
    If the only tac station you have is commander, then I prefer this:

    TT1, CRF1, CSV2, APO3.

    By using this build, it allows for dropping shields on multiple small targets, and spreading single targets. Also, the APO3 helps with damage. By doing this setup, it will work for all non-PVP content.

    The reason I don't like APO, is the uptime vs cooldown. APB is up twice as long in the same amount of time. Lowering someone or something's damage resistance is how the big boys get their 30k DPS. Not trying to take away from your build, it is just a preference.

    Also APB effects the intire team, where APO is a selfish buff.
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  • gendou#6914 gendou Member Posts: 64 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    My personal recommendation?

    TT1 / APB1 / TS3 / CSV3

    However, if you find you're having survivability issues in ESTFs, consider going to THY3 / CRF3.
    I love the damage increase from spread, but it does tend to draw enemy fire... going with the High Yield / Rapid Fire combination does allow you to control where your fire is going significantly better. With Escorts or Destroyers, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor when it comes to laying down the pain. :D
  • simeion1simeion1 Member Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    xangen wrote: »
    My personal recommendation?

    TT1 / APB1 / TS3 / CSV3

    However, if you find you're having survivability issues in ESTFs, consider going to THY3 / CRF3.
    I love the damage increase from spread, but it does tend to draw enemy fire... going with the High Yield / Rapid Fire combination does allow you to control where your fire is going significantly better. With Escorts or Destroyers, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor when it comes to laying down the pain. :D

    The only thing with using a torp is the cooldown. An energy based weapon will out DPS a torp because of a torps cooldown. Just think about it if you are using a photon at six seconds and a quantum at eight, that is time another forward fireing energy weapon is not firing. But there is a time and place for torps.
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  • gendou#6914 gendou Member Posts: 64 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    simeion1 wrote: »
    The only thing with using a torp is the cooldown. An energy based weapon will out DPS a torp because of a torps cooldown. Just think about it if you are using a photon at six seconds and a quantum at eight, that is time another forward fireing energy weapon is not firing. But there is a time and place for torps.
    Three DHCs and a single Torpedo is generally pretty decent front-wise for an Escort or Raider.
    Torpedos are even better with Projectile DOffs like Ten of Ten from Omega Rep.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    AP Beta 3 will yield better result overall though
  • simeion1simeion1 Member Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    xangen wrote: »
    Three DHCs and a single Torpedo is generally pretty decent front-wise for an Escort or Raider.
    Torpedos are even better with Projectile DOffs like Ten of Ten from Omega Rep.


    Not putting down torps. But if you look for best DPS, almost all high end DPS build use no torp. But there are time and place for them. I like using them because I don't like to use a cookie cutter build all the time. One of my favorite builds is crf1x2, BO3, and HYT3. Really love it in a defiant or bug ship.
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  • xxxhellspawnyxxxxxxhellspawnyxxx Member Posts: 195 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    CRF: 1 +30%, 2 +40%, 3 +50% single target
    CSV: 1 +15%, 2 +20%, 3 +25% up to three targets
    APB: 1 -30, 2 -40, 3 -50 Hull-Debuff (w/ 9 points in attack patterns)
    APO: 1 +15% Damage, 2 +15% Damage, 3 +25% Damage besides other benefits (w/ 9 points in attack patterns)

    The low damage difference between CSV1 and CSV3 makes scatter 3 one of the worst skills to choose.

    So for PvE I'd recommend TT1, CSV1, CRF2, APB3. With both CRF and CSV at your disposal you get the best combination of single and multi target damage. APB3 not just boosts your own damage (like APO would do) but debuffs your target(s) for all your team members.
  • zero2362zero2362 Member Posts: 436 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    ok so scatter 1 and beta 3 instead then. I would use rapid fire but im using a torp so i like to have 1 torp skill as well
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  • rodentmasterrodentmaster Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    The bio warheads are doing upwards of 3000 damage per torp, and are (if I recall) on the photorp cooldown of 5 seconds or so.

    Assuming Torp Spread 3 is on a 30 second cooldown and you're not using A2B or anything, you will get 3 salvoes of 7 warheads per activation, or 21 warheads. In 1 minute you can theoretically trigger this twice.

    That's 42 warheads right there. Take away 5 seconds for warhead cooldown after each of those activations and you're left with 50 seconds, during which 10 more non-spread torps can be fired.

    That comes to (theoretically) 3000 damage times 47 warheads. That's 141,000 damage per minute. That's 2350 DPS.

    Moral of the story: Depending on your torp choice, your boff skills, any skill points you have allocated to torp use and torp crit, a torp may or may not actually increase your DPS over an all-energy build.
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I vote for TT1/CSV1/TS3/APB3.

    The difference between CSV1 and CSV2 is a bit of damage, but the difference between TS3 and TS2 is number of targets. If you're doing NWS or the current CCE, being able to hit as many targets as possible is a godsend (it's why cannons are preferred for them, after all).
  • razar2380razar2380 Member Posts: 1,187 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    simeion1 wrote: »
    The reason I don't like APO, is the uptime vs cooldown. APB is up twice as long in the same amount of time. Lowering someone or something's damage resistance is how the big boys get their 30k DPS. Not trying to take away from your build, it is just a preference.

    Also APB effects the intire team, where APO is a selfish buff.


    I understand how some might consider APO to be selfish, since they are almost always with one or more others, attacking a single target, or groups of them. However, I am usually doing PUGing (and I don't mean with the STF channels), so for that that reason, I went with a setup that I can use anywhere, and under any situation (not just in STFs, but also the PVEs, and episodes).

    Though, even in the ESTFs, I am usually alone for the most part of the Cure, and Vortex. The Conduit is the only exception. However, in the Cure, most PUG teams separate into three groups (2,2,1 or 3,1,1). I am almost always the one by myself. I handle a single cube, and also cover for those that don't know what they are doing, and let the BOPs get by them.

    In the Vortex, most players don't like to handle the probes heading to the vortex, because they cannot rack up as much DPS. So, they will head to the transformers as far away from the vortex as soon as the cube drops. When this happens, I am almost always taking care of the probes, namite generators, cube, and transformer by myself.

    So, I am almost always by myself handling one section by myself, as well as cleaning up the mess that a lot of DPSers make. (I saw a lot, and not all DPSers, because there are a small number of DPSers that know what they are doing, and do the missions correctly, without leaving a mess for others to clean up).

    Also, I have been one of the high DPSers with 30K+ with using APO. However, I gave that up for quick kill builds, when I realized I can get higher spike damage, kill things quicker, with less DPS.

    However, since my health has gotten worse, I prefer to go with a beam array build since they are much simpler to fly.

    Still, I am usually the one that takes up the work that most don't like. Therefore, for my build, I like something that will give me the spike damage when needed, as well as the other bonuses APO offers when needed. I am not saying that APB is not good. However, it depends on the build, and what you are doing.

    About whether or not it is selfish to run APO, the same can be said for any engineering, or science skills that help only the user, and not their teammates. If it doesn't have the ability to help them, then it is also selfish. Though, for that reasoning, one can say that anyone that is able to run a copy of APB, APD together should. Therefore, to call a skill selfish is not correct. It is the one using it. If they are using it with the intent to be selfish, then they are selfish. However, if they are using it in a way that allows them to better help the team, it is not selfish.

    Pretty much like a lot of selfish people that are in the Cure. If many of them are at the cube that drops first, a lot of times they will not help with the Raptors, or Neg'Vars that spawn. They head straight to the next cube so they don't lose DPS. Does their actions make all players that fly those ships, with those builds selfish? No. It depends on the way it is used.
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  • simeion1simeion1 Member Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    razar2380 wrote: »
    I understand how some might consider APO to be selfish, since they are almost always with one or more others, attacking a single target, or groups of them. However, I am usually doing PUGing (and I don't mean with the STF channels), so for that that reason, I went with a setup that I can use anywhere, and under any situation (not just in STFs, but also the PVEs, and episodes).

    Though, even in the ESTFs, I am usually alone for the most part of the Cure, and Vortex. The Conduit is the only exception. However, in the Cure, most PUG teams separate into three groups (2,2,1 or 3,1,1). I am almost always the one by myself. I handle a single cube, and also cover for those that don't know what they are doing, and let the BOPs get by them.

    In the Vortex, most players don't like to handle the probes heading to the vortex, because they cannot rack up as much DPS. So, they will head to the transformers as far away from the vortex as soon as the cube drops. When this happens, I am almost always taking care of the probes, namite generators, cube, and transformer by myself.

    So, I am almost always by myself handling one section by myself, as well as cleaning up the mess that a lot of DPSers make. (I saw a lot, and not all DPSers, because there are a small number of DPSers that know what they are doing, and do the missions correctly, without leaving a mess for others to clean up).

    Also, I have been one of the high DPSers with 30K+ with using APO. However, I gave that up for quick kill builds, when I realized I can get higher spike damage, kill things quicker, with less DPS.

    However, since my health has gotten worse, I prefer to go with a beam array build since they are much simpler to fly.

    Still, I am usually the one that takes up the work that most don't like. Therefore, for my build, I like something that will give me the spike damage when needed, as well as the other bonuses APO offers when needed. I am not saying that APB is not good. However, it depends on the build, and what you are doing.

    About whether or not it is selfish to run APO, the same can be said for any engineering, or science skills that help only the user, and not their teammates. If it doesn't have the ability to help them, then it is also selfish. Though, for that reasoning, one can say that anyone that is able to run a copy of APB, APD together should. Therefore, to call a skill selfish is not correct. It is the one using it. If they are using it with the intent to be selfish, then they are selfish. However, if they are using it in a way that allows them to better help the team, it is not selfish.

    Pretty much like a lot of selfish people that are in the Cure. If many of them are at the cube that drops first, a lot of times they will not help with the Raptors, or Neg'Vars that spawn. They head straight to the next cube so they don't lose DPS. Does their actions make all players that fly those ships, with those builds selfish? No. It depends on the way it is used.


    Selfish might be a strong word. All I was going to get at is that it only effects one player. If you use a combat log tracker of any type I challenge you to run APB vs. APO to find out which on e is better. Beduffing a targets resistance increases DPS.

    In vortex. This is a joke. Every player should be able to handle probes, their cube, and their transformers and gens. It is real easy to do. Most people don't balance their shields and that is what leads them to trouble.
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  • kozar2kozar2 Member Posts: 602 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    For the APO APB debate it depends on what you do. If you are soloing a lot in game content and STFs then run APB or my favourite listed below. If you are usually with another player I'd tend to run APO as everyone runs APB and the targets are usually debuffed anyway.

    Why there isn't more love for APD is beyond me. If you draw agro it gives you the perks of APB plus an equal but opposite boost to your DR.
  • policestate76policestate76 Member Posts: 1,424 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Rapid Cannon III is more useful than scatter volley when using in fast escorts. But the thing here is, if you have a cannon build, you should have both (obviously not tier 3 on both, but both skills). Scatter volley sometimes it is a waste, because the damage you will inflict to 2, 3 or more targets is ridiculous compared with the damage you can inflict to a single target with cannon rapid fire.
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  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    edalgo wrote: »
    It must be the way I fly but I've swapped builds from CRF to CSV for ESTFS and I was shocked at the results.

    They both parse near identical!

    So on my escorts I stick with CRF for easier transition from PvP to PvE and back. With single target CRF I keep my ship moving more to keep the high defense ratings going otherwise the likelihood to getting 1 shotted increases.

    I'm very surprised at that. Are you not getting enough targets in your CSV? I've found correct positioning (to hit as many targets as possible while being close) matters a lot more with CSV than with CRF.

    According to the (theoretical) numbers, if you can hit two targets with CSV every time you'd be using CRF, it would be the same, but any time you can hit more than two targets you'd do more.

    How many times did you parse them against each other?
  • policestate76policestate76 Member Posts: 1,424 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    edalgo wrote: »
    It must be the way I fly but I've swapped builds from CRF to CSV for ESTFS and I was shocked at the results.

    They both parse near identical!

    So on my escorts I stick with CRF for easier transition from PvP to PvE and back. With single target CRF I keep my ship moving more to keep the high defense ratings going otherwise the likelihood to getting 1 shotted increases.

    i dunno what you mean with "they parse identical". I can kill a tholian recluse in 2 runs of my guramba using rapid cannon III. If i use scatter volley II instead, i will be lucky if i can get its shields go down in the first run.

    I agree the damage inflicted by SV is good enough, but not enough against single targets. At least that is my experience.
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  • nicha0nicha0 Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    There is a lot of bad info out there for builds, lots in this threads.

    APB1, CSV3 is a solid useful build. The increase to damage isn't a lot, but while CSV1 is 3 targets, CSV3 is 5 targets, thats a massive increase in potential DPS. In situations where you can hit all 5 targets, like in a NWS situation, the more targets you have warp core breaching eachother the more die in a chain reaction.
    This build is pretty solid, but lacks single target firepower

    APB3 and CSV1 is a good overall build for low quantity of targets. You can consistantly keep APB3 up, do a lot of damage to a few targets. Of course its pretty easy for teams to hit the debuff caps with multiple APB3s so it may not be universally a good build. The short duration is also problematic where burst damage is preferable (NWS).
    This build is likely to fall flat in stronger teams or when facing large numbers of enemies.

    CSV1 and APO3 I prefer over option 2, but not necessarily over the first. It has a pretty long burst damage period, does great single target damage and the three target limit is less of a problem when you have APO3 behind you. Stack it with decloak buffs and it is nasty.

    Easiest way to really feel the difference is to play in a NWS against fighter based races, many CSV1 builds get overwhelmed and fail, while the CSV3 can control them. One of my tacs uses the first and one uses the third, and lets be honest, its not like you need to try to not totally destroy everything in this game by just pressing fire anyway.
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  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    i dunno what you mean with "they parse identical". I can kill a tholian recluse in 2 runs of my guramba using rapid cannon III. If i use scatter volley II instead, i will be lucky if i can get its shields go down in the first run.

    I agree the damage inflicted by SV is good enough, but not enough against single targets. At least that is my experience.

    CSV is an AoE ability. CRF is a single target ability. Obviously CRF will do more damage to a single target.

    It's much faster to kill the sphere spawn in ISE all at once with CSV, rather than individually with CRF.

    The vast majority of PvE content involves multiple enemies, which is why it's regarded as doing more DPS. Which is why it's surprising that he parsed the same amount of damage with CRF.
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    nicha0 wrote: »
    while CSV1 is 3 targets, CSV3 is 5 targets

    When did they cap the number of targets? :confused:

    Are you sure you're not mixing up Torpedo Spread with Cannon Scatter Volley?
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