To cloak or not to cloak.

originalspock

That should be the question. But it is not. In my opinion a new mechanic should get introduced much like backing up your ship, cloaks should receive a stacking energy drain after being cloaked for longer then 5 minutes which eventually causes the cloak to drop. This mechanic would force cloaking players to ration their ambush capabilities with care, and not perpetually hide with no threat to themselves.

5 minutes cloak is fine
5 minutes > power drops in all systems 5 power / per second
Power reaches 0 cloak drops power equalizes
If 15 power in any subsystem cloak goes into global cool down then can be reenabled by player.

reginamala78

Except in series, ships traveled for days, weeks at a time under cloak with no problem.

nightken

originalspock wrote: »

That should be the question. But it is not. In my opinion a new mechanic should get introduced much like backing up your ship, cloaks should receive a stacking energy drain after being cloaked for longer then 5 minutes which eventually causes the cloak to drop. This mechanic would force cloaking players to ration their ambush capabilities with care, and not perpetually hide with no threat to themselves.

5 minutes cloak is fine
5 minutes > power drops in all systems 5 power / per second
Power reaches 0 cloak drops power equalizes
If 15 power in any subsystem cloak goes into global cool down then can be reenabled by player.

how bout no. cloak has more then enough punishments attached to it as is. cloaker are near defenseless coming out when planned. getting knocked out of it is fatal. any one with a few point in sensors can knock a ship of cloak.

there is justification for this change in gameplay nor lore.

mirrorchaos

originalspock wrote: »

That should be the question. But it is not. In my opinion a new mechanic should get introduced much like backing up your ship, cloaks should receive a stacking energy drain after being cloaked for longer then 5 minutes which eventually causes the cloak to drop. This mechanic would force cloaking players to ration their ambush capabilities with care, and not perpetually hide with no threat to themselves.

5 minutes cloak is fine
5 minutes > power drops in all systems 5 power / per second
Power reaches 0 cloak drops power equalizes
If 15 power in any subsystem cloak goes into global cool down then can be reenabled by player.

doubt you are gonna get many that will agree and try to remember what some here want, instant gratification. what youre asking for is opposite and by limiting cloaking capabilities some ships immediately become useless due to their strike and run designs like the BOP/raider types which require the use of their cloaks for an inordinate amount of time.

originalspock

reginamala78 wrote: »

Except in series, ships traveled for days, weeks at a time under cloak with no problem.

A) Video Game
Not a simulator

jslyn

Some ships, such as the T'varo, are built around the premise of staying cloaked throughout an entire battle.

originalspock

nightken wrote: »

how bout no. cloak has more then enough punishments attached to it as is. cloaker are near defenseless coming out when planned. getting knocked out of it is fatal. any one with a few point in sensors can knock a ship of cloak.

there is justification for this change in gameplay nor lore.

You aren't getting knocked out without a visible warning that you have been cloaked for too long and its either time to attack or break off and retreat. Which makes use of cloaks far more tactical.

corelogik

Cloaked ships already have enough penalty. No shields at all.

nightken

originalspock wrote: »

You aren't getting knocked out without a visible warning that you have been cloaked for too long and its either time to attack or break off and retreat. Which makes use of cloaks far more tactical.

thats not what that word means. and cloaks are a strategic weapon. once again it means no sense. they had to bs a reason for the shield thing and bops still sucked hard enough to get a hull boost and flanking.

originalspock

mirrorchaos wrote: »

doubt you are gonna get many that will agree and try to remember what some here want, instant gratification. what youre asking for is opposite and by limiting cloaking capabilities some ships immediately become useless due to their strike and run designs like the BOP/raider types which require the use of their cloaks for an inordinate amount of time.

Eh I don't post in hopes of candy or flowers, I know some people have grown comfortable with the idea of kicking their feet up on their desk not having to participate in a mission or pvp match or keeping their cloak ability permanently installed without fear of attack. I am just trying to bring an obvious imbalance to light.

My main is Romulan, and flies a cloak ship, and I think cloaking and hiding is far too easy.

originalspock

jslyn wrote: »

Some ships, such as the T'varo, are built around the premise of staying cloaked throughout an entire battle.

Nice canonical idea, poorly executed in practice, General Chang never had a team of 5 B'rel to nail Kirk and Sulu all at once.

tekehd

nightken wrote: »

how bout no. cloak has more then enough punishments attached to it as is. cloaker are near defenseless coming out when planned. getting knocked out of it is fatal. any one with a few point in sensors can knock a ship of cloak.

there is justification for this change in gameplay nor lore.

Indeed, cloaked ships general have no shields and are thus vulnerable to attacks.... assuming you have cloak detection skills. There is no need to nerf cloaks to satisfy min-maxer weaknesses.

rezking

corelogik wrote: »

Cloaked ships already have enough penalty. No shields at all.

True, all cloaks already have drawbacks.
Moreso when 1 faction can detect your perfectly "cloaked" ship long before you can get in attack range.
Even if it does get in range with the cloak still active, the damage dealt is a mere fraction of what it was (and should be again).

nightken

originalspock wrote: »

Eh I don't post in hopes of candy or flowers, I know some people have grown comfortable with the idea of kicking their feet up on their desk not having to participate in a mission or pvp match or keeping their cloak ability permanently installed without fear of attack. I am just trying to bring an obvious imbalance to light.

My main is Romulan, and flies a cloak ship, and I think cloaking and hiding is far too easy.

I'm sorry but are you kidding me. never mind a cloaked ship is not attack so it's useless for winning anything. thats what they are made to do, hide till an opportunity to do maximum dmg. thats the play style and any pvp team not ready to take on cloakers is incompetent.

originalspock

tekehd wrote: »

Indeed, cloaked ships general have no shields and are thus vulnerable to attacks.... assuming you have cloak detection skills. There is no need to nerf cloaks to satisfy min-maxer weaknesses.

I have been playing this game since the start and I find using cloak detection with anything other then TDG near impossible without a ship already had revealing themselves. I don't recall the last time I have seen a ship pulled out of cloak without either an absurd amount of luck or already being under fire.

stonewbie

originalspock wrote: »

A) Video Game
Not a simulator

I cant think of any other game that i've played where a stealth class had to leave stealth because they got too tired, ran out of energy or whatever reason...maybe if they left the shadows. If the problem is that in PVP players are using cloak and never leaving, the solution isnt to take it away through some penalty or weakness in the cloaking system. I think the solution would be to make it so that you have a way to track or reveal a cloaked ship. Kinda like a WoW hunter that will throw out a flare to uncover a rogue or druid. And there is even basis for this in the movies so you can adapt it to the game. I think it was in ST III where they visually saw the mirage like effect on the viewscreen. So instead of just a simple suspicion that there might be a klingon ship there they knew it was there but they just couldnt act on it because it was still cloaked. TNG did some other stuff too like with the tachyon net that revealed the Romulan fleet. But that might be a bit too complicated so maybe something like that but on a smaller scale.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Dxx1_gKGQ


How about something like that? that is a pic of a radar screen display. How about an ability maybe a toggle that puts out a graphic just like that which is centered on your ship. Basically a modified version of sensor scan, but balanced in such a way that maybe it is weaker but has a longer range and slower sweep scan speed. You toggle it on and that sweep goes around continously until you deactivate it. If it picks up a cloaked ship in it's detection range then it leaves some sort of mirage or afterimage in the playfield part of your screen. You wouldnt be able to target it, but at least you are alerted to it and you can take evasive action or maybe lay some mines on it kinda like depth charging a submarine. Hell that might even make for some interesting gameplay...a little more interesting then simply taking away their ability to stealth. It makes detection interactive for you and it also means that they cant shoot you, stealth, then run away 30km and then afk.

nightken

sophlogimo wrote: »

"Strategic" would mean it is useful in sector space. It isn't.




True, but that is because they have (still) too low hull hitpoints for the game, not because cloaking wasn't a big advantage over not cloaking.

no it means useful in long term plan. sector space has as much to do with strategy as my left butt cheek.


p.s. I prefer real definitions to made up ones.

mirrorchaos

originalspock wrote: »

Eh I don't post in hopes of candy or flowers, I know some people have grown comfortable with the idea of kicking their feet up on their desk not having to participate in a mission or pvp match or keeping their cloak ability permanently installed without fear of attack. I am just trying to bring an obvious imbalance to light.

My main is Romulan, and flies a cloak ship, and I think cloaking and hiding is far too easy.

and what happens if candy and flowers dont work? change is a hard thing, some dont want to change, being comfortable where and what and the question comes up , why fix something that isnt broken? :P

nightken

stonewbie wrote: »

I cant think of any other game that i've played where a stealth class had to leave stealth because they got too tired, ran out of energy or whatever reason...maybe if they left the shadows. If the problem is that in PVP players are using cloak and never leaving, the solution isnt to take it away through some penalty or weakness in the cloaking system. I think the solution would be to make it so that you have a way to track or reveal a cloaked ship. Kinda like a WoW hunter that will throw out a flare to uncover a rogue or druid. And there is even basis for this in the movies so you can adapt it to the game. I think it was in ST III where they visually saw the mirage like effect on the viewscreen. So instead of just a simple suspicion that there might be a klingon ship there they knew it was there but they just couldnt act on it because it was still cloaked. TNG did some other stuff too like with the tachyon net that revealed the Romulan fleet. But that might be a bit too complicated so maybe something like that but on a smaller scale.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Dxx1_gKGQ


How about something like that? that is a pic of a radar screen display. How about an ability maybe a toggle that puts out a graphic just like that which is centered on your ship. Basically a modified version of sensor scan, but balanced in such a way that maybe it is weaker but has a longer range and slower sweep scan speed. You toggle it on and that sweep goes around continously until you deactivate it. If it picks up a cloaked ship in it's detection range then it leaves some sort of mirage or afterimage in the playfield part of your screen. You wouldnt be able to target it, but at least you are alerted to it and you can take evasive action or maybe lay some mines on it kinda like depth charging a submarine. Hell that might even make for some interesting gameplay...a little more interesting then simply taking away their ability to stealth. It makes detection interactive for you and it also means that they cant shoot you, stealth, then run away 30km and then afk.

we have 3 deferent uni consoles just to help detect cloaked ships.

http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ability:_Tachyon_Detection_Field

http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ability:_Tachyon_Detection_Grid

http://sto.gamepedia.com/Console_-_Universal_-_Ionized_Gas_Sensor

the abilities exist people just have to use them. and snoopers work.

originalspock

stonewbie wrote: »

I cant think of any other game that i've played where a stealth class had to leave stealth because they got too tired, ran out of energy or whatever reason...maybe if they left the shadows. If the problem is that in PVP players are using cloak and never leaving, the solution isnt to take it away through some penalty or weakness in the cloaking system. I think the solution would be to make it so that you have a way to track or reveal a cloaked ship. Kinda like a WoW hunter that will throw out a flare to uncover a rogue or druid. And there is even basis for this in the movies so you can adapt it to the game. I think it was in ST III where they visually saw the mirage like effect on the viewscreen. So instead of just a simple suspicion that there might be a klingon ship there they knew it was there but they just couldnt act on it because it was still cloaked. TNG did some other stuff too like with the tachyon net that revealed the Romulan fleet. But that might be a bit too complicated so maybe something like that but on a smaller scale.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Dxx1_gKGQ


How about something like that? that is a pic of a radar screen display. How about an ability maybe a toggle that puts out a graphic just like that which is centered on your ship. Basically a modified version of sensor scan, but balanced in such a way that maybe it is weaker but has a longer range and slower sweep scan speed. You toggle it on and that sweep goes around continously until you deactivate it. If it picks up a cloaked ship in it's detection range then it leaves some sort of mirage or afterimage in the playfield part of your screen. You wouldnt be able to target it, but at least you are alerted to it and you can take evasive action or maybe lay some mines on it kinda like depth charging a submarine. Hell that might even make for some interesting gameplay...a little more interesting then simply taking away their ability to stealth. It makes detection interactive for you and it also means that they cant shoot you, stealth, then run away 30km and then afk.

Ghost / Wraiths in Starcraft, however more robust cloak detection is also an avenue, however I find implementing cloak limits enable more dynamic less lazy gameplay over all on the short term

nightken

sophlogimo wrote: »

Uh.



Me, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_strategy

"Military strategy is a set of ideas implemented by military organizations to pursue desired strategic goals.[1] Derived from the Greek strategos, strategy when it appeared in use during the 18th century,[2] was seen in its narrow sense as the "art of the general",[3] 'the art of arrangement' of troops.[4] Military strategy deals with the planning and conduct of campaigns, the movement and disposition of forces, and the deception of the enemy."

So no, once you are in system space to shoot at someone it's not strategy, but tactics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_tactics

"Military tactics can be described as the science and art of organizing a military force, and the techniques for using weapons or military units in combination for engaging and defeating an enemy in battle."

got what do those have to do with sector space and I said long term planing.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/strategic[/URL


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/strategic]

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/strategic

I can post links too.

nightken

sophlogimo wrote: »

They exist, but are largely useless. The torpedo is much too slow, and the Tachyon detection abilties should be toggles (with a tradeoff, for example a cost in energy much like Mask Energy Signature), not click powers that run for 30 seconds with a 2 minute cooldown.

that I can agree with.

originalspock

nightken wrote: »

we have 3 deferent uni consoles just to help detect cloaked ships.

http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ability:_Tachyon_Detection_Field

http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ability:_Tachyon_Detection_Grid

http://sto.gamepedia.com/Console_-_Universal_-_Ionized_Gas_Sensor

the abilities exist people just have to use them. and snoopers work.

Only one of those is actually practical, the rest are not viable for on the fly.