i don't understand why you use the scimitar as example; with or without A2B this ship is already OP
and why nobody talks about lobi or c-store consoles; they could be also designated as OP; the tachiosomething console for example, the plasmonic leech etc etc. If A2B must be nerfed then all the "OP" stuff must be also nerfed.
Tachyo lobi console is nice, but not anywhere near as OP as aux2batt's cd ability.
And the Scimi, isn't the only example ship to be found, netting ridiculous dps via aux2batt.
1. 30k A2B Scim - a Scim is capable of 80k DPS non-A2Bed.
2. Same as above.
3. His ship can do far better non-A2Bed. Not bad doing it with beams, beam banks, DHCs, a torpedo and a turret mind.
IMO, none of those youtiube films do a pro-A2B argument any favours, as both the Avenger and Scimitar can do better without it. In fact, if you did want to care a bit more you would have known not to use them as examples.
My Whole point is A2B is not good - so far, you have only posted ships that support that notion.
If your entire issue is A2B can be used to reduce Boff cooldowns, then your issue is with all other Doffs that reduce cooldowns as well, and don't come with A2Bs disadvantages - the fact is, A2B is not OP, it just seems like it at first glance.
Other doffs mostly offer a chance at cd reduction, only some offer a set cd reduction.
Tech doffs offer set reduction to all boff skills, what doff besides those do you know of, has this capability?
That is why it is classed OP by many, and maybe not to you or other's, but I would suspect those who argue in favor, are avid users.
After seeing the results of this thread and many others along the lines of nerf A2B or keep it the way it is, I have come to the conclusion that the playerbase is extremely divided over the future of A2B.
I am going to conclude by making a few statements regarding the state of A2B in the game. Can it be considered "OP"? Of course! However, I feel that the fix is not to nerf A2B but instead buff the necessary skills to be competitive with A2B. Maybe reduce the cooldowns of certain boff abilities so that A2B is less tempting to use?
Ultimately my goal is to complete silly PvE grinds that I do not enjoy at all in order to get the required resources I need to participate in PvP. Until PWE is able to make PvE more entertaining and have more of a purpose other than grinding, an overwhelming majority of players will try to complete their grinds as quickly as possible.
This goal is facilitated most effectively by A2B because making an A2B build is easy and does not require a lot of thinking in order to have high DPS and tanking abilities which are required everywhere in this game.
Ultimately, the problem here is not A2B, but instead that other powers do not effecitvely help in achieving this goal to the same degree. It is those powers/doffs that are underpowered and NOT A2B that is overpowered.
The problem is, that if you take a Gal R as an example without A2B it fails to do anything of importance. It can't crowd control, and it can't hold aggro because it doesn't pump out enough damage. You have to go out of your way to make it work.
I won't argue that A2B is op, it is. The function it serves is to allow players to break the Trinity - I can now play the Gal R as a damage dealer because that's how I have fun with the game. Without A2B I am stuck doing 5k-7k dps, which isn't fun for me.
It should be about options and not being pidgeonholed into a function because of an outdated trinity system. Players should have the ability to fly an iconic ship like the Gal R in a way that brings them fun. Which unfortunately leaves players with few options if dealing damage is how they want to play. A2B just happens to be one of those - I would not take it away unless it's replaced with something else.
A2B is not the best option for ships like a Nicor, but that ship is so versatile you can do a lot with it. Gal R, free Negh'var, Star Cruiser the options are limited.
On your edited bit added on earlier - see fakefives post; the STO forums are full of people who cannot and will not read properly. It is also on the internet, a world full of trolls.
Why I listen to specific people I know or at least have their reputation precede them.
The thing with cool downs is there are other ways to do it - and the advantages of those ways mean A2B in an unlimited resource build isn't the best way to do it. But if you are resource limited, then it has its place.
You see, what you are looking for is a way to have your abilities permanently on, or as close as you can - A2B technicians are one way, but that means using A2B.
A2B as a skill, is worthless and detrimental - no one apart from newbies or n00bs would run it without its doffs. It is barely better than Aceton Beam. It guts your Aux, your most environmentally useful subsystem, and redistributes it to the other 3. Which if you are smart, already run overcapped as best you can, making it not worthwhile.
The Doffs make it so you click A2B and get up to 30% knocked off all remaining cool downs. At first, this sounds great and OP.
It isn't.
See, lets go back to why you want it - to get your abilities up as often as possible. At this point, what we really want is our Tac and constant effect abilities up, usually 3 of Tac:
Tactical Team, a weapon Boff ability, an Attack Pattern.
And our Constants:
EPtXs, A2D/A2SIF and DEM of the highest rank possible.
Sci is pretty much reserved for HE and Sci team for debuff clearing in both cases - HE being a hull heal and Sci team a shield heal is a nice bonus but not why we use them.
Now, in a typical PvE like ISE, lets consider our opponents. First we have one Tac Cube, 3 normal Cubes, about a dozen spheres, 1 Transwarp Gateway, 2 transformers, 8 generators.
In short, a bunch of stationary targets, of speaking frankly, not much danger if you are prepared.
Thus, with powercreep, it becomes a case of how quickly can you kill this above ensemble - currently, a premade team of top players is searching for a way to go sub 1 minute.
This brings us back to our Boff skills - in one minute, you will need 4x TT, 4x weapon boff, 4x AP, 2x EPtX, 2x DEM and maybe a heal or two.
A2B gives this - so does doubling up on Tac powers and using dedicated Doffs for the others.
So, now lets evaluate the hypothetical ISE ship specced purely to get through ISE as fast as possible.
First, it will be Tac focused - at a 1 minute timescale, you probably will not need heals. So it will have a lot of Tac Consoles and Boff powers.
Kinda like a Scim with its 5 Tac Consoles, Cm. Tac, Lt. Cm. Uni and Ens. Uni - potentially 8 Tac Boff skills, 2 Eng and 2 Sci. So, lets run with a Scim.
Now, we only need 6 Tac Boffs, and we are given 4. So do we set our Lt. Cm. and Ens. to be Eng, Tac or Sci?
Do we go all out Tac, or a bit of Tac and Eng, or a bit of Tac, a bit of Eng and a bit of Sci?
And which is better?
Tac: Cm. Tac, Lt. Cm. Tac, Ens. Tac, Lt. Eng and Sci,
Bit of Both: Cm. Tac, Ens. Tac, Lt. Cm. Eng, Lt. Eng, Lt. Sci
Balanced: Cm. Tac, Lt. Eng, Ens. Eng, Lt. Cm. Sci, Lt. Sci
Well, the First one, simply because it clears ISE faster. You could argue it is far too fragile, and you would probably have a point were it not for the fact stuff dies so quickly at 80k DPS plus.
The A2B Bit of both Scim by contrast, did about 40k DPS - both figures last time I looked it up.
Now, this for the ultimate in OP-ness of the Scimitar, largely because it displays the biggest potential gap.
If you re-run the numbers on the likes of say, a far more humble Fed Star Cruiser, the Non-A2B Star Cruiser scrapes 10k, and the A2B star Crusier pushes for 22-27k plus DPS.
The difference? The Star Cruiser, being a 2 Tac Console and 2 Tac boff ship, requires A2B to push its Boff Tac skills uptime as much as possible.
So, what have we learnt? Well, that A2B is highly ship dependant - on one ship, it had half the effectiveness. On the other, it did between double and triple the effectiveness.
So why is this? The answer lies in the two ships Tac abilities.
You may point out a Star Cruiser is not a DPS ship. (true)
You may also point out that even the lowest figure mentioned here of 10k DPS is 4 to 5 times the output of an average ISE pugger. (true)
You may also point out it the unfairness of STO PvE being all about the Tac power. (also true)
You may also point out ISE is so easy even a group of T2 or T1 ships could do it. (true)
Key point is, I am looking at a situation of unlimited resources to drag every last scrap of performance from both of them, and the standard candle of Infected: Space Elite. And in the light of this standard candle, A2B is shown to be a massive aid to some ships, and a massive curse to others, and it all comes down to what you want to fly.
Now, lets review A2B in context of DPS - 20k to 30k DPS in STO is by far and away, outstanding by any measure - well into top 1% levels. 10k however, is about average of good players. A2B can drag otherwise not very useful for STO's PvE meta and make them put out respect worthy numbers. It is also, very evidently in that most OP of OP things the Scimitar, not OP.
Therefore, the case for A2B rests on the fact it takes ships that otherwise are to all objective intents and purposes useless, and makes them valid - a very, very treasurable thing when we are talking about ships of the Galaxy-Classes level - and the case against also rests on these very ships being made to do what they aren't intended to do.
Therefore, I say A2B should stay purely on the grounds of what it does for the Galaxy-Class alone, and most importantly of all, STOs PvE meta needs to be moved away from pure DPS.
The problem is, that if you take a Gal R as an example without A2B it fails to do anything of importance. It can't crowd control, and it can't hold aggro because it doesn't pump out enough damage. You have to go out of your way to make it work.
I won't argue that A2B is op, it is. The function it serves is to allow players to break the Trinity - I can now play the Gal R as a damage dealer because that's how I have fun with the game. Without A2B I am stuck doing 5k-7k dps, which isn't fun for me.
It should be about options and not being pidgeonholed into a function because of an outdated trinity system. Players should have the ability to fly an iconic ship like the Gal R in a way that brings them fun. Which unfortunately leaves players with few options if dealing damage is how they want to play. A2B just happens to be one of those - I would not take it away unless it's replaced with something else.
A2B is not the best option for ships like a Nicor, but that ship is so versatile you can do a lot with it. Gal R, free Negh'var, Star Cruiser the options are limited.
Omg, stop the press, we need to have such an exploitable skill in game, because this person cannot live with the Gal-R doing, heaven forbid 5-7k dps!!!
A perfectly suitable dps #, that can complete pve material with utter ease, but nope we cannot settle for this, no we must double that because of this reason alone, no other reason!!!
I mean why have Tac oriented ships, when we can turn something like the Gal-R into one?
Heaven forbid, you should maybe play one of those, you know Tac oriented ships, I mean after all that is what they were intended for, are they not?
Omg, stop the press, we need to have such an exploitable skill in game, because this person cannot live with the Gal-X doing, heaven forbid 5-7k dps!!!
A perfectly suitable dps #, that can complete pve material with utter ease, but nope we cannot settle for this, no we must double that because of this reason alone, no other reason!!!
I would still prefer to have the option that's all. I like options, I like to fly science ships like the Atrox, and i pushed it to its limits (13k), that's fun for me. I play STO because it has iconic ships that I find fun to play with. It's nice that the devs gave me a choice in how I can fly my Gal-R, I simply wish to keep having this choice, or maybe be replaced with other choices, and not have it removed with no other alternative. I don't think that's unreasonable.
I am pretty sure I am not going to change your mind shadowwraith77 - that's fine you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am to mine. Considering the boff layouts of the recent lockbox ships, I don't think an a2b nerf is coming.
People don't really seem to understand the point of aux2bat. If you have a ship with a favorable bridge officer layout then you don't need aux2bat. What aux2bat does is provide ships with unfavorable bridge officer layouts a way to be competitive at higher level game play. Is it a crutch for a broken system - absolutely, but a necessary one unless you want a lot of ships to suck. How did we end up here? Well when the game was implemented they were obviously striving for the standard mmo trinity (healer/cc, tank, dps). For better or worse this model became obsolete over time via the power creep that is constantly being injected into the game. Earlier ships were locked into their roles because of bridge officer layout and available gear at the time. Because of earlier mentioned power creep and cryptics need for $ ships with more favorable bridge officer layouts constantly got released making earlier ships more and more obsolete. That in combination with better gear, duty officers, etc...have shoved some ships to the side. Particularly those that are station heavy in a certain class. What this game favors now is high or constant up time of tac abilities, enough engineering to maintain ships tankiness, and access to enough healing/cc. The top ships are the ones that can basically do all this, while the lesser ships are the ones that cannot. Aux2bat simply gives these lesser ships the ability to compete with newer ships. A fundamental adjustment of boff powers and/or the game in general would be needed to fix a lot of these terrible ships...or you can leave aux2bat.
I would still prefer to have the option that's all. I like options, I like to fly science ships like the Atrox, and i pushed it to its limits (13k), that's fun for me. I play STO because it has iconic ships that I find fun to play with. It's nice that the devs gave me a choice in how I can fly my Gal-R, I simply wish to keep having this choice, or maybe be replaced with other choices, and not have it removed with no other alternative. I don't think that's unreasonable.
I am pretty sure I am not going to change your mind shadowwraith77 - that's fine you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am to mine. Considering the boff layouts of the recent lockbox ships, I don't think an a2b nerf is coming.
Well options are usually a good thing, and there are plenty of them with the amount of ships available.
But, they IMO, should have never offered such a crappy crutch, to these vessels in the 1st place.
They should have devised something, less overboard than such a broad cd skill.
I mean 13k may be fun to you, as well as others, but it isn't a necessity by any means for those vessels in any match.
People don't really seem to understand the point of aux2bat. If you have a ship with a favorable bridge officer layout then you don't need aux2bat. What aux2bat does is provide ships with unfavorable bridge officer layouts a way to be competitive at higher level game play. Is it a crutch for a broken system - absolutely, but a necessary one unless you want a lot of ships to suck. How did we end up here? Well when the game was implemented they were obviously striving for the standard mmo trinity (healer/cc, tank, dps). For better or worse this model became obsolete over time via the power creep that is constantly being injected into the game. Earlier ships were locked into their roles because of bridge officer layout and available gear at the time. Because of earlier mentioned power creep and cryptics need for $ ships with more favorable bridge officer layouts constantly got released making earlier ships more and more obsolete. That in combination with better gear, duty officers, etc...have shoved some ships to the side. Particularly those that are station heavy in a certain class. What this game favors now is high or constant up time of tac abilities, enough engineering to maintain ships tankiness, and access to enough healing/cc. The top ships are the ones that can basically do all this, while the lesser ships are the ones that cannot. Aux2bat simply gives these lesser ships the ability to compete with newer ships. A fundamental adjustment of boff powers and/or the game in general would be needed to fix a lot of these terrible ships...or you can leave aux2bat.
There technically is no such thing, as an unfavorable boff layout!
It might not be favorable to some, but to other's it fits its intended purpose.
Not every ship is meant to be a dps deliverer, and once people understand that, the better off they will understand aux2batt being doffed, is not a necessity.
People just have the assumption, that no matter what vessel you have, they all need deliver ridiculous dps, and than complain the game is to easy & boring.
It needs more challenge, well you yourself overstepped any possible challenge, when you decided your vessel need do umpteen thousands dps, instead of dumbing yourself down for a challenge.
They scream pvp needs more people, and better balance, well same applies here, if everyone need build uber death vessels, than do not complain!
If people can complete elite missions, with something as low as a tier 1 ship, than it goes to show aux2batt's cd effect, isn't necessary outside of pvp at best.
Hell, I used to enjoy flying a fighter/shuttle, in ESTF pugs back in the day, and only once in awhile.
The thing is Endgame PvE content is built purely around destroying stuff - There is no content in STO where a Star Cruiser is better suited to do something than an Assault Cruiser, except certain roles in PvP, a part of the game with so little population that really isn't enough to actually care about, as much as we dislike that fact.
Your statement about ships having roles to play is irrelevant, as there is only one role in STO - killing stuff.
Once, if you bought a Cruiser into an ESTF, people would quit because of it as you simply would not be a useful member of a team - then came A2B with Doffs, and suddenly Cruisers were a valid choice too.
Then came powercreep and Elite STF nerfing, and suddenly 500 DPS lol-boats inferior to a well specified T1 ship could complete ESTFs.
"Escorts Online" - that was STO, a few die hard Cruiser pilots aside.
Now STO is "Escorts, Romulans and A2B Cruisers Online" - and that is better, we just need Sci ships in there too.
It is not perfect - but it is better.
Also, Players should not have to dumb themselves down for supposedly Elite content - we should have Elite content that is for Elite players, and everyone else runs in Normal because they cant do Elite.
And if they cant do Elite, they can ask for help to improve.
But as it stands, Elite STFs being doable with optionals by a single ship is undeniable evidence that we need harder content.
If someone wants to improve, they will, and if someone doesn't they wont - that is how the universe works when you have an adequate but not very good education system.
The Turrets fore, mines aft while using beam skills lol-boats will just get ROFL-stomped and stay in Normal where they belong.
The thing is Endgame PvE content is built purely around destroying stuff - There is no content in STO where a Star Cruiser is better suited to do something than an Assault Cruiser, except certain roles in PvP, a part of the game with so little population that really isn't enough to actually care about, as much as we dislike that fact.
Your statement about ships having roles to play is irrelevant, as there is only one role in STO - killing stuff.
Once, if you bought a Cruiser into an ESTF, people would quit because of it as you simply would not be a useful member of a team - then came A2B with Doffs, and suddenly Cruisers were a valid choice too.
Then came powercreep and Elite STF nerfing, and suddenly 500 DPS lol-boats inferior to a well specified T1 ship could complete ESTFs.
"Escorts Online" - that was STO, a few die hard Cruiser pilots aside.
Now STO is "Escorts, Romulans and A2B Cruisers Online" - and that is better, we just need Sci ships in there too.
It is not perfect - but it is better.
Also, Players should not have to dumb themselves down for supposedly Elite content - we should have Elite content that is for Elite players, and everyone else runs in Normal because they cant do Elite.
And if they cant do Elite, they can ask for help to improve.
But as it stands, Elite STFs being doable with optionals by a single ship is undeniable evidence that we need harder content.
I cannot deny that your argument is good, but they devised the content, so even the weakest of vessels could complete it.
However, to say they need make elite content extremely challenging, would put out player's who choose not to build super high dps builds, are they to be punished as well when you advocate nerfing aux2batt, would punish other's?
I get it that it was a generic fix, for less Tac oriented vessels to have more Tac capability, but it doesn't negate the fact, that it was a poorly improvised fix.
and how many people would know this, vs how many people would think they are good enough while having no indication ingame about how poorly they are doing?
game needs open scoreboards to tell players how well they do.
There are those who simply do not care, they just want to play to have fun, and not be criticized about their so called performance (like throwing up combat logs in their faces).
Performance in pve, can usually be hindered the most, when they are simply un-aware of how to do the mission, and not always that they are low rated dps, however a mix of the two can cause grief, to the other's who need pick up their slack.
If someone wants to improve, they will, and if someone doesn't they wont - that is how the universe works when you have an adequate but not very good education system.
The Turrets fore, mines aft while using beam skills lol-boats will just get ROFL-stomped and stay in Normal where they belong.
But open scoreboards would be nice.
Well, the old saying goes, there is no cure for stupidity!
And you lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink!
I cannot deny that your argument is good, but they devised the content, so even the weakest of vessels could complete it.
However, to say they need make elite content extremely challenging, would put out player's who choose not to build super high dps builds, are they to be punished as well when you advocate nerfing aux2batt, would punish other's?
I get it that it was a generic fix, for less Tac oriented vessels to have more Tac capability, but it doesn't negate the fact, that it was a poorly improvised fix.
When ESTFs were first introduced, getting a pug to do an optional was a big thing that simply didn't happen very often - by today, when was the last time you failed an optional with a competent group?
The content was nerfed so that more people could it, and then powercreep kicked in, and ever since then Elite content has not been at the level it should be - both being wrong in my view.
There is a myriad of build advice out there, and ship builders who will help - once the new level of ESTFs are introduced anyone who wants to improve could just look them up.
The bottom line is Elite content should match the very best players, not either require these players to go down in ability to match it.
...which is only going to be those runs that have been submitted, eh?
So, I'd lean toward those <10k numbers being higher and the percentages that much higher, no?
edit: Just a note for those not familiar with that table, those numbers would be the high parses for those toons - they'd have lower parses; but without every single parse you could only guess at their averages - so it's just the highs for each.
...which is only going to be those runs that have been submitted, eh?
So, I'd lean toward those <10k numbers being higher and the percentages that much higher, no?
edit: Just a note for those not familiar with that table, those numbers would be the high parses for those toons - they'd have lower parses; but without every single parse you could only guess at their averages - so it's just the highs for each.
Which leads to 3 conclusions:
1. There are more 30k+ DPS'ers who upload parses than PvPers total.
2. The current base required DPS to do ICE with optional not lost due to time taken covers about 89% of uploaded players parses, and perhaps 50% overall.
3. Your assessment that these are only going to be the higher parses is most likely correct.
Massage peoples ego's who have no clue what they are doing but run A2B so they "think" they are good while mashing the space bar drinking root beer ?
I don't know I cant seem to think of a valid reason to keep it. Other than displaying to people you have no imagination and alienating people from you I see no reason to run it unless your obnoxious or an idiot !
In my opinion, A2Bat isn't the problem here, it's FAW.
Those extreme high DPS numbers are the real problem. I think something should be done about that, instead of A2B in general.
A2Bat would be ok if:
It wouldn't give such high power boosts
FAW damage wouldn't be so over the top, reduce its dmg bonus about 50%
It would work similar like A2S and become real effective at rank III.* (so only engineering heavy ships would get a real benefit from it, instead of certain Dreadnought warbirds.)
*i imagine something like this. Rank I: Lieutenant
Cooldown: 15 sec
-30 Auxiliary Power Setting for 10 sec
Allowed Technicans: 1
Rank II: Lt. Commander
Cooldown: 15 sec
-45 Auxiliary Power Setting for 10 sec
Allowed Technicans: 2
Rank III: Commander
Cooldown: 15 sec
-60 Auxiliary Power Setting for 10 sec
Allowed Technicans: 3
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
In my opinion, A2Bat isn't the problem here, it's FAW.
Those extreme high DPS numbers are the real problem. I think something should be done about that, instead of A2B in general.
A2Bat would be ok if:
It wouldn't give such high power boosts
FAW damage wouldn't be so over the top, reduce its dmg bonus about 50%
It would work similar like A2S and become real effective at rank III.* (so only engineering heavy ships would get a real benefit from it, instead of certain Dreadnought warbirds.)
*i imagine something like this. Rank I: Lieutenant
Cooldown: 15 sec
-30 Auxiliary Power Setting for 10 sec
Allowed Technicans: 1
Rank II: Lt. Commander
Cooldown: 15 sec
-45 Auxiliary Power Setting for 10 sec
Allowed Technicans: 2
Rank III: Commander
Cooldown: 15 sec
-60 Auxiliary Power Setting for 10 sec
Allowed Technicans: 3
Not an overall bad proposal, might need some tweaking to make other's happy, or at least can live with it!
Making elite content harder won't help pugs. A lot of times the only difference between a failed optional and getting the optional in a pug is a faw a2b boat pumping out 10k+. Reason being that you have 2-3 ships doing less than 4k dps and one or two of which have no idea how to complete the content.
This game needs better tutorials. More good information ingame - it takes a long time to learn the mechanics and a lot of forum reading, which some folks won't bother with.
I think yreodred's suggestion is not too bad - it would be nice if we got a new ensign ability to go along with any a2b change. Perhaps move aceton beam down to ensign level (I know it was suggested in another thread).
Comments
Tachyo lobi console is nice, but not anywhere near as OP as aux2batt's cd ability.
And the Scimi, isn't the only example ship to be found, netting ridiculous dps via aux2batt.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Other doffs mostly offer a chance at cd reduction, only some offer a set cd reduction.
Tech doffs offer set reduction to all boff skills, what doff besides those do you know of, has this capability?
That is why it is classed OP by many, and maybe not to you or other's, but I would suspect those who argue in favor, are avid users.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I am going to conclude by making a few statements regarding the state of A2B in the game. Can it be considered "OP"? Of course! However, I feel that the fix is not to nerf A2B but instead buff the necessary skills to be competitive with A2B. Maybe reduce the cooldowns of certain boff abilities so that A2B is less tempting to use?
Ultimately my goal is to complete silly PvE grinds that I do not enjoy at all in order to get the required resources I need to participate in PvP. Until PWE is able to make PvE more entertaining and have more of a purpose other than grinding, an overwhelming majority of players will try to complete their grinds as quickly as possible.
This goal is facilitated most effectively by A2B because making an A2B build is easy and does not require a lot of thinking in order to have high DPS and tanking abilities which are required everywhere in this game.
Ultimately, the problem here is not A2B, but instead that other powers do not effecitvely help in achieving this goal to the same degree. It is those powers/doffs that are underpowered and NOT A2B that is overpowered.
I won't argue that A2B is op, it is. The function it serves is to allow players to break the Trinity - I can now play the Gal R as a damage dealer because that's how I have fun with the game. Without A2B I am stuck doing 5k-7k dps, which isn't fun for me.
It should be about options and not being pidgeonholed into a function because of an outdated trinity system. Players should have the ability to fly an iconic ship like the Gal R in a way that brings them fun. Which unfortunately leaves players with few options if dealing damage is how they want to play. A2B just happens to be one of those - I would not take it away unless it's replaced with something else.
A2B is not the best option for ships like a Nicor, but that ship is so versatile you can do a lot with it. Gal R, free Negh'var, Star Cruiser the options are limited.
Why I listen to specific people I know or at least have their reputation precede them.
The thing with cool downs is there are other ways to do it - and the advantages of those ways mean A2B in an unlimited resource build isn't the best way to do it. But if you are resource limited, then it has its place.
You see, what you are looking for is a way to have your abilities permanently on, or as close as you can - A2B technicians are one way, but that means using A2B.
A2B as a skill, is worthless and detrimental - no one apart from newbies or n00bs would run it without its doffs. It is barely better than Aceton Beam. It guts your Aux, your most environmentally useful subsystem, and redistributes it to the other 3. Which if you are smart, already run overcapped as best you can, making it not worthwhile.
The Doffs make it so you click A2B and get up to 30% knocked off all remaining cool downs. At first, this sounds great and OP.
It isn't.
See, lets go back to why you want it - to get your abilities up as often as possible. At this point, what we really want is our Tac and constant effect abilities up, usually 3 of Tac:
Tactical Team, a weapon Boff ability, an Attack Pattern.
And our Constants:
EPtXs, A2D/A2SIF and DEM of the highest rank possible.
Sci is pretty much reserved for HE and Sci team for debuff clearing in both cases - HE being a hull heal and Sci team a shield heal is a nice bonus but not why we use them.
Now, in a typical PvE like ISE, lets consider our opponents. First we have one Tac Cube, 3 normal Cubes, about a dozen spheres, 1 Transwarp Gateway, 2 transformers, 8 generators.
In short, a bunch of stationary targets, of speaking frankly, not much danger if you are prepared.
Thus, with powercreep, it becomes a case of how quickly can you kill this above ensemble - currently, a premade team of top players is searching for a way to go sub 1 minute.
This brings us back to our Boff skills - in one minute, you will need 4x TT, 4x weapon boff, 4x AP, 2x EPtX, 2x DEM and maybe a heal or two.
A2B gives this - so does doubling up on Tac powers and using dedicated Doffs for the others.
So, now lets evaluate the hypothetical ISE ship specced purely to get through ISE as fast as possible.
First, it will be Tac focused - at a 1 minute timescale, you probably will not need heals. So it will have a lot of Tac Consoles and Boff powers.
Kinda like a Scim with its 5 Tac Consoles, Cm. Tac, Lt. Cm. Uni and Ens. Uni - potentially 8 Tac Boff skills, 2 Eng and 2 Sci. So, lets run with a Scim.
Now, we only need 6 Tac Boffs, and we are given 4. So do we set our Lt. Cm. and Ens. to be Eng, Tac or Sci?
Do we go all out Tac, or a bit of Tac and Eng, or a bit of Tac, a bit of Eng and a bit of Sci?
And which is better?
Tac: Cm. Tac, Lt. Cm. Tac, Ens. Tac, Lt. Eng and Sci,
Bit of Both: Cm. Tac, Ens. Tac, Lt. Cm. Eng, Lt. Eng, Lt. Sci
Balanced: Cm. Tac, Lt. Eng, Ens. Eng, Lt. Cm. Sci, Lt. Sci
Well, the First one, simply because it clears ISE faster. You could argue it is far too fragile, and you would probably have a point were it not for the fact stuff dies so quickly at 80k DPS plus.
The A2B Bit of both Scim by contrast, did about 40k DPS - both figures last time I looked it up.
Now, this for the ultimate in OP-ness of the Scimitar, largely because it displays the biggest potential gap.
If you re-run the numbers on the likes of say, a far more humble Fed Star Cruiser, the Non-A2B Star Cruiser scrapes 10k, and the A2B star Crusier pushes for 22-27k plus DPS.
The difference? The Star Cruiser, being a 2 Tac Console and 2 Tac boff ship, requires A2B to push its Boff Tac skills uptime as much as possible.
So, what have we learnt? Well, that A2B is highly ship dependant - on one ship, it had half the effectiveness. On the other, it did between double and triple the effectiveness.
So why is this? The answer lies in the two ships Tac abilities.
You may point out a Star Cruiser is not a DPS ship. (true)
You may also point out that even the lowest figure mentioned here of 10k DPS is 4 to 5 times the output of an average ISE pugger. (true)
You may also point out it the unfairness of STO PvE being all about the Tac power. (also true)
You may also point out ISE is so easy even a group of T2 or T1 ships could do it. (true)
Key point is, I am looking at a situation of unlimited resources to drag every last scrap of performance from both of them, and the standard candle of Infected: Space Elite. And in the light of this standard candle, A2B is shown to be a massive aid to some ships, and a massive curse to others, and it all comes down to what you want to fly.
Now, lets review A2B in context of DPS - 20k to 30k DPS in STO is by far and away, outstanding by any measure - well into top 1% levels. 10k however, is about average of good players. A2B can drag otherwise not very useful for STO's PvE meta and make them put out respect worthy numbers. It is also, very evidently in that most OP of OP things the Scimitar, not OP.
Therefore, the case for A2B rests on the fact it takes ships that otherwise are to all objective intents and purposes useless, and makes them valid - a very, very treasurable thing when we are talking about ships of the Galaxy-Classes level - and the case against also rests on these very ships being made to do what they aren't intended to do.
Therefore, I say A2B should stay purely on the grounds of what it does for the Galaxy-Class alone, and most importantly of all, STOs PvE meta needs to be moved away from pure DPS.
Would anyone disagree with that conclusion...
Omg, stop the press, we need to have such an exploitable skill in game, because this person cannot live with the Gal-R doing, heaven forbid 5-7k dps!!!
A perfectly suitable dps #, that can complete pve material with utter ease, but nope we cannot settle for this, no we must double that because of this reason alone, no other reason!!!
I mean why have Tac oriented ships, when we can turn something like the Gal-R into one?
Heaven forbid, you should maybe play one of those, you know Tac oriented ships, I mean after all that is what they were intended for, are they not?
(Mostly sarcasm, but it speaks the truth also)
EDITTED for correct vessel
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Umm, he was talking about the Gal-R...
Ok oops my bad there, but either way, the Gal-R isn't meant to be a heavy Tac oriented vessel.
But we can break that rule, simply because someone wants to.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
The issue with the trinity of warrior, tank and mage, Tactical, Engineering and Science in STO is that the game is built around only one of these...
I am pretty sure I am not going to change your mind shadowwraith77 - that's fine you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am to mine. Considering the boff layouts of the recent lockbox ships, I don't think an a2b nerf is coming.
Well options are usually a good thing, and there are plenty of them with the amount of ships available.
But, they IMO, should have never offered such a crappy crutch, to these vessels in the 1st place.
They should have devised something, less overboard than such a broad cd skill.
I mean 13k may be fun to you, as well as others, but it isn't a necessity by any means for those vessels in any match.
There technically is no such thing, as an unfavorable boff layout!
It might not be favorable to some, but to other's it fits its intended purpose.
Not every ship is meant to be a dps deliverer, and once people understand that, the better off they will understand aux2batt being doffed, is not a necessity.
People just have the assumption, that no matter what vessel you have, they all need deliver ridiculous dps, and than complain the game is to easy & boring.
It needs more challenge, well you yourself overstepped any possible challenge, when you decided your vessel need do umpteen thousands dps, instead of dumbing yourself down for a challenge.
They scream pvp needs more people, and better balance, well same applies here, if everyone need build uber death vessels, than do not complain!
If people can complete elite missions, with something as low as a tier 1 ship, than it goes to show aux2batt's cd effect, isn't necessary outside of pvp at best.
Hell, I used to enjoy flying a fighter/shuttle, in ESTF pugs back in the day, and only once in awhile.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Your statement about ships having roles to play is irrelevant, as there is only one role in STO - killing stuff.
Once, if you bought a Cruiser into an ESTF, people would quit because of it as you simply would not be a useful member of a team - then came A2B with Doffs, and suddenly Cruisers were a valid choice too.
Then came powercreep and Elite STF nerfing, and suddenly 500 DPS lol-boats inferior to a well specified T1 ship could complete ESTFs.
"Escorts Online" - that was STO, a few die hard Cruiser pilots aside.
Now STO is "Escorts, Romulans and A2B Cruisers Online" - and that is better, we just need Sci ships in there too.
It is not perfect - but it is better.
Also, Players should not have to dumb themselves down for supposedly Elite content - we should have Elite content that is for Elite players, and everyone else runs in Normal because they cant do Elite.
And if they cant do Elite, they can ask for help to improve.
But as it stands, Elite STFs being doable with optionals by a single ship is undeniable evidence that we need harder content.
The Turrets fore, mines aft while using beam skills lol-boats will just get ROFL-stomped and stay in Normal where they belong.
But open scoreboards would be nice.
I cannot deny that your argument is good, but they devised the content, so even the weakest of vessels could complete it.
However, to say they need make elite content extremely challenging, would put out player's who choose not to build super high dps builds, are they to be punished as well when you advocate nerfing aux2batt, would punish other's?
I get it that it was a generic fix, for less Tac oriented vessels to have more Tac capability, but it doesn't negate the fact, that it was a poorly improvised fix.
There are those who simply do not care, they just want to play to have fun, and not be criticized about their so called performance (like throwing up combat logs in their faces).
Performance in pve, can usually be hindered the most, when they are simply un-aware of how to do the mission, and not always that they are low rated dps, however a mix of the two can cause grief, to the other's who need pick up their slack.
Well, the old saying goes, there is no cure for stupidity!
And you lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
When ESTFs were first introduced, getting a pug to do an optional was a big thing that simply didn't happen very often - by today, when was the last time you failed an optional with a competent group?
The content was nerfed so that more people could it, and then powercreep kicked in, and ever since then Elite content has not been at the level it should be - both being wrong in my view.
There is a myriad of build advice out there, and ship builders who will help - once the new level of ESTFs are introduced anyone who wants to improve could just look them up.
The bottom line is Elite content should match the very best players, not either require these players to go down in ability to match it.
Precisely.
234 @30k+ (234x 30k+) 2.17%
726 @20k+ (492x 20k - <30k) 4.57%
2355 @10k+ (1629x 10k - <20k) 15.13%
5783 @5k+ (3428x 5k - <10k) 31.84%
9952 @2k+ (4169x 2k - <5k) 38.72%
10766 @200.917+ (814x <2k) 7.56%
...which is only going to be those runs that have been submitted, eh?
So, I'd lean toward those <10k numbers being higher and the percentages that much higher, no?
edit: Just a note for those not familiar with that table, those numbers would be the high parses for those toons - they'd have lower parses; but without every single parse you could only guess at their averages - so it's just the highs for each.
Which leads to 3 conclusions:
1. There are more 30k+ DPS'ers who upload parses than PvPers total.
2. The current base required DPS to do ICE with optional not lost due to time taken covers about 89% of uploaded players parses, and perhaps 50% overall.
3. Your assessment that these are only going to be the higher parses is most likely correct.
So people don't have to think !
Massage peoples ego's who have no clue what they are doing but run A2B so they "think" they are good while mashing the space bar drinking root beer ?
I don't know I cant seem to think of a valid reason to keep it. Other than displaying to people you have no imagination and alienating people from you I see no reason to run it unless your obnoxious or an idiot !
Those extreme high DPS numbers are the real problem. I think something should be done about that, instead of A2B in general.
A2Bat would be ok if:
(so only engineering heavy ships would get a real benefit from it, instead of certain Dreadnought warbirds.)
*i imagine something like this.
Rank I: Lieutenant
Cooldown: 15 sec
-30 Auxiliary Power Setting for 10 sec
Allowed Technicans: 1
Rank II: Lt. Commander
Cooldown: 15 sec
-45 Auxiliary Power Setting for 10 sec
Allowed Technicans: 2
Rank III: Commander
Cooldown: 15 sec
-60 Auxiliary Power Setting for 10 sec
Allowed Technicans: 3
Not an overall bad proposal, might need some tweaking to make other's happy, or at least can live with it!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
This game needs better tutorials. More good information ingame - it takes a long time to learn the mechanics and a lot of forum reading, which some folks won't bother with.
I think yreodred's suggestion is not too bad - it would be nice if we got a new ensign ability to go along with any a2b change. Perhaps move aceton beam down to ensign level (I know it was suggested in another thread).