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Tac in Sci Oddy build (help) vs Engineer in Fleet Gal x Build. Which is better?

gameversemangameverseman Member Posts: 1,110 Arc User
This is my tac build
BUILD: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=tacinscioddy_7030
Objective: Balance between DPS and tanking for PvE
Cost: As high as you want to go (hypothetical future build)
VS
This is my Engineer build
Build: http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=futurefedengineer_7030
Objective: To tank primarily and do sufficient DPS for both PvE and PvP.
Cost: As high as you want to go (hypothetical future build)

ALSO, the guy ahead of Sto academy (site used for these builds) is running a fundraiser. Feel free to donate!

THANKS!
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Post edited by gameverseman on
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Comments

  • nobletnoblet Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    This is my tac build
    BUILD: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=tacinscioddy_7030
    Objective: Balance between DPS and tanking for PvE
    Cost: As high as you want to go (hypothetical future build)
    VS
    This is my Engineer build
    Build: http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=futurefedengineer_7030
    Objective: To tank primarily and do sufficient DPS for both PvE and PvP.
    Cost: As high as you want to go (hypothetical future build)

    ALSO, the guy ahead of Sto academy (site used for these builds) is running a fundraiser. Feel free to donate!

    THANKS!

    Here:
    http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=futurefedengineerfixed_0
  • gameversemangameverseman Member Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    That build is MUCH better... what about my Oddy?
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  • cmdrscarletcmdrscarlet Member Posts: 5,137 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Yeah, the Gawain discussion was VERY revealing. Dare I say it's not a start, but an end-build.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Yepp, the Gawain is pretty much state of the art, though as I said in that thread, I would go with EptS1+EptW3 and 3 Damage control engineers for a Beginners build.
  • gameversemangameverseman Member Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I really don't like Gawain's build all that much though..... I am very Anti-fleet when it comes to deflectors and impulse engines.
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  • cmdrscarletcmdrscarlet Member Posts: 5,137 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Well sure, but the build was to maximize DPS and not much else, if anything else at all. The trick is to position the ship in a way to achieve it's purpose.

    From my perspective, if you alter the Gawain build, then you will lose DPS ... but gain something else. Like aesthetic pleasure, or something like that.
  • jjdezjjdez Member Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I really don't like Gawain's build all that much though..... I am very Anti-fleet when it comes to deflectors and impulse engines.

    Why? Anyway as Edalgo said you can swap those out for something like Borg engine/deflector, which I would honestly suggest to start out with anyway if you aren't already a master of everything else in the build.
  • gameversemangameverseman Member Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    What's wrong with the build I have already made?
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  • jjdezjjdez Member Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    What's wrong with the build I have already made?

    I should have been more clear, my apologies. Why are you so anti-fleet when it comes to deflectors and engines?
  • nobletnoblet Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    From my perspective, if you alter the Gawain build, then you will lose DPS ... but gain something else. Like aesthetic pleasure, or something like that.

    False. Upgrading beta in place of omega, or just 2x beta, will increase dps. Using Nukara 2 piece gives 2.5% dmg, which isn't insignificant, as it's final, not base. Dropping protonic 2 piece for regular beam array (soon replaced with 360 plasma beam) and nukara console also improves dps. Large than 180 arc means you don't have to face backward to fire the beam. Acc overflow not working in faw will be fixed in upcoming season. Even before that, faw has at most 50% uptime. During the other 50%, acc overflow will contribute crit to the effect of 0.09% chance and 0.9% severity per point. Borg spheres in stfs do go evasive, where you can miss. Same goes for starbase defense and many other fleet actions. The idea that you never miss in pve is not true. It's good effort for playing into tac odyssey's low amount of tac consoles, but in the end still doesn't quite pan out.

    The cookie cutter a2b fit, compared to this, is far easier to fly, tanks better, and isn't much lower on dps. The reason is, you get to double up on dem, as well as 2x eptw III, as opposed to 1x eptw I and 1x eptw III. This makes up part of the dps lost from nukara trait.

    But anyway, anyone who's this much into minmaxing dps wouldn't fly a science oddy to begin with. :rolleyes:
  • jjdezjjdez Member Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    noblet wrote: »
    False. Upgrading beta in place of omega, or just 2x beta, will increase dps.

    Then why did the top DPSers all use Omega/Beta combo to get their highest scores?
    noblet wrote: »
    But anyway, anyone who's this much into minmaxing dps wouldn't fly a science oddy to begin with. :rolleyes:

    I believe the point was for the creator to challenge himself to make a good build out of the sci oddy that isn't a tank/healer.
  • dahminusdahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    jjdez wrote: »
    Then why did the top DPSers all use Omega/Beta combo to get their highest scores?

    Turn rate and speed boost.

    In terms of straight dps

    Beta3>omega3

    Beta2>omega1

    But when you factor in the additional mobility granted by omega, it makes the cut. You still use a copy of ap beta to keep an ap rolling though
    Chive on and prosper, eh?

    My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Noblet, again, powerlevels of gawain are so high, Aux>100 can easily sustained, given that, you always have EptW3-damage while using EptW1 and with EptW3 used, you get around 21% energydamage compared to 16,6% from EptW3 with a2b, thanks to >5% from Nukara T4 and 1 AMP more.
    I still would go with EptS1+3DCEs though, makes it more sturdy^^
    There is so much power floating around currently, Nukara T4 is not to be underestimated. Also A2B on a Ody is really a... gimping idea.

    As for Equip, especially on a tac I would beg to differ and see Romegine+UNdine-Deflector as superior, on other chars it might be the other way around.
    On APB vs. APO i am on your side, since zemok is pricy for marginal performance boost if any.
  • nobletnoblet Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    jjdez wrote: »
    Then why did the top DPSers all use Omega/Beta combo to get their highest scores?



    I believe the point was for the creator to challenge himself to make a good build out of the sci oddy that isn't a tank/healer.

    Because they utilized certain tricks and exploits that aren't as relevant in the real game, to put mildly. Recluse pet debuff stacking is one. You stack so many beta IIIs that the direct self dmg buff from omega translates into more dps. This exploit has since been nerfed and can no longer be replicated. Another is using gdf (or go down fighting). Before run, you set yourself (and other team members) down to 1% hull, degrade skills, crew, and other conditions to minimize passive hull heals, and activate gdf for massive damage spike. You finish the stf run before gdf expires, and pretend this one gaint spike is dps. If anyone dies, you start over until the desired short parse log is attained. This leads into your omega/beta combo. Omega is great for mobility in the real game, but they're only interested in dps, and here's how they do it: Omega is used in sync with pet beta stacking. Afterwards, beta from everyone is used as replacement after pet beta stack wears off, since omega without stacked betas don't do much dps. The long cd from omega compared to beta is not considered an issue, since you finish the short run before gdf expires. There are many other exploits they use to produce logs that aren't practical in the real game, but let's end the wall of text here.;)

    Btw, they didn't come up with these themselves. Most of these came from the vaunted 100k Kumari of old mirror event in the olden days, which used every trick in the book, and was the butt of many running jokes back then. They recycled them. For some reason it's no longer considered joke nowadays, I'm not sure why.:P

    Anyway, an oddy that's not a tank or healer would be a cookie cutter a2b oddy. High performance all around. Deals not quite, but nearly highest potential dps, while easy to fly and easy to tank. You get free high shield power - more resists, shrug off damage. You get free high engine power - goes faster, turns better. Mash that space bar like it's the EASY button. What's not to like?:D
    woodwhity wrote: »
    Noblet, again, powerlevels of gawain are so high, Aux>100 can easily sustained, given that, you always have EptW3-damage while using EptW1 and with EptW3 used, you get around 21% energydamage compared to 16,6% from EptW3 with a2b, thanks to >5% from Nukara T4 and 1 AMP more.
    I still would go with EptS1+3DCEs though, makes it more sturdy^^
    There is so much power floating around currently, Nukara T4 is not to be underestimated. Also A2B on a Ody is really a... gimping idea.

    As for Equip, especially on a tac I would beg to differ and see Romegine+UNdine-Deflector as superior, on other chars it might be the other way around.
    On APB vs. APO i am on your side, since zemok is pricy for marginal performance boost if any.

    Nukara trait isn't anywhere close to 21% damage. It's a drop in a bucket - something minmaxers add on top after they've already exhausted every other source of dps. Also, the 16.6% dmg from eptw is base, not final, so it's also very little. To take advantage of 4th amp, you'll have to set aux lower than max, compromising nukara rep dps. The only alternative is lower weapon powers, which is even worse. You end up with poor power levels all around, as opposed to easy max powers in weapon, shield, and engine subs.
  • gameversemangameverseman Member Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    jjdez wrote: »
    I should have been more clear, my apologies. Why are you so anti-fleet when it comes to deflectors and engines?
    They just are not g0od compared to a mk XII positron [Em] [SIF] [Stl], nukara, or counter-command deflector. and the impulse engines just dont have the same special procs like the solonae or nukara does.
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  • sarcasmdetectorsarcasmdetector Member Posts: 1,176 Media Corps
    edited July 2014
    noblet wrote: »
    Because they utilized certain tricks and exploits that aren't as relevant in the real game, to put mildly. Recluse pet debuff stacking is one. You stack so many beta IIIs that the direct self dmg buff from omega translates into more dps. This exploit has since been nerfed and can no longer be replicated. Another is using gdf (or go down fighting). Before run, you set yourself (and other team members) down to 1% hull, degrade skills, crew, and other conditions to minimize passive hull heals, and activate gdf for massive damage spike. You finish the stf run before gdf expires, and pretend this one gaint spike is dps. If anyone dies, you start over until the desired short parse log is attained. This leads into your omega/beta combo. Omega is great for mobility in the real game, but they're only interested in dps, and here's how they do it: Omega is used in sync with pet beta stacking. Afterwards, beta from everyone is used as replacement after pet beta stack wears off, since omega without stacked betas don't do much dps. The long cd from omega compared to beta is not considered an issue, since you finish the short run before gdf expires. There are many other exploits they use to produce logs that aren't practical in the real game, but let's end the wall of text here.;)

    Btw, they didn't come up with these themselves. Most of these came from the vaunted 100k Kumari of old mirror event in the olden days, which used every trick in the book, and was the butt of many running jokes back then. They recycled them. For some reason it's no longer considered joke nowadays, I'm not sure why.:P

    Anyway, an oddy that's not a tank or healer would be a cookie cutter a2b oddy. High performance all around. Deals not quite, but nearly highest potential dps, while easy to fly and easy to tank. You get free high shield power - more resists, shrug off damage. You get free high engine power - goes faster, turns better. Mash that space bar like it's the EASY button. What's not to like?:D



    Nukara trait isn't anywhere close to 21% damage. It's a drop in a bucket - something minmaxers add on top after they've already exhausted every other source of dps. Also, the 16.6% dmg from eptw is base, not final, so it's also very little. To take advantage of 4th amp, you'll have to set aux lower than max, compromising nukara rep dps. The only alternative is lower weapon powers, which is even worse. You end up with poor power levels all around, as opposed to easy max powers in weapon, shield, and engine subs.

    Still waiting for you to post a better build and include a parse with it.

    There is no way an a2b oddy could outperform my zemok build.

    Running at 125 Aux power:
    +6.25% Acc
    +6.25% All Damage
    +6.25% Hull Cap
    +6.25% Shield Cap
    +25 Bonus All Damage Resists
  • gameversemangameverseman Member Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    You know, guys, this "debate" on Gwain's build, doesn't help MY build. I want to do DPS primarily and tank when it comes to the oddy. (like I said in original post). The gal X build is meant primarily to tank.
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  • sarcasmdetectorsarcasmdetector Member Posts: 1,176 Media Corps
    edited July 2014
    You know, guys, this "debate" on Gwain's build, doesn't help MY build. I want to do DPS primarily and tank when it comes to the oddy. (like I said in original post). The gal X build is meant primarily to tank.

    Gawain is about as high as you can take DPS in a sci oddy, and it has a very significant tank.
  • gameversemangameverseman Member Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    edalgo wrote: »
    Would be easier to make the GalX into DPS and Oddy into tank...
    I know, but hate DPS builds that cant turn. Hence why I'd prefer a Oddy do DPS over the Gal X
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  • gameversemangameverseman Member Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Gawain is about as high as you can take DPS in a sci oddy, and it has a very significant tank.

    That's nice but I dont wanna fly Gwain's ship, I wanna fly mine. There's no originality in copying somebody else's build. Plus I just don't feel like grinding for all of that equipment.
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  • gameversemangameverseman Member Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    edalgo wrote: »
    then why ask for builds then????????????????


    GL to you. I'm out


    I love people who ask for help then debate every single point.........
    I never asked for builds.... I asked for help on MY build.... good job reading buddy :) If I wanted someone else's build, why would I post my own?
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  • sarcasmdetectorsarcasmdetector Member Posts: 1,176 Media Corps
    edited July 2014
    I never asked for builds.... I asked for help on MY build.... good job reading buddy :)

    The point was that you take what you like from the build and make it your own. no said anything about copying the build exactly.

    Even if you did decide to copy it exactly you still wouldn't be able to match my performance with that ship.

    If you ask for advice, and get defensive when you people offer it to you; then you are just looking for a pat on the back.
  • gameversemangameverseman Member Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    The point was that you take what you like from the build and make it your own. no said anything about copying the build exactly.

    Even if you did decide to copy it exactly you still wouldn't be able to match my performance with that ship.

    If you ask for advice, and get defensive when you people offer it to you; then you are just looking for a pat on the back.

    Well, first off, I'm only defensive because 2 pages of MY thread was a debate on someone else's build. When, originally, it was MY build. I wish to tweak my build and just want some pointers on how to change it. It's not a matter of me "looking for a pat on the back". To be honest, I rather have had 2 pages of people criticizing my build instead of debating someone else's. I don't want people to shove someone else's build down my throat and say "take what you like"... excuse me, but, no. Also, where's the help in, basically saying, you will never be as good as me? Seriously dude, if you wanted to show off, make your own damn thread. If there is anyone here who wants to help me on tweaking MY build. Feel free to comment :) thanks
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