On my Tribble toon I sent over approximately 2000 particles and traces but still never got enough blue to craft anything above mk VI. If memory serves you were going to add craft supplies to PvE queues but how is somebody who is trying to level crafting as they themselves level up going to create mk VIII items when they cannot reasonably expect to find enough blue samples anywhere? I say this as even on the normal missions I have been running the number of placed samples locations has been reduced to a measly 2 per map.
Please give us some way of being able to trade in samples for other samples at the very least if we cant have our cluster 'scan 5 anomalies' missions anymore.
Spent a bit of time playing with the updated crafting bits yesterday, quite a bit of improvement. I agree with the idea that the XP costs need to be lowered, at least for Levels 1 through 15. A couple of other things I would note:
1. Can we have a way to filter out the blue components from the crafting tab? Right now we have purple components by default hidden, can this apply to blue? This would speed up/improve the speed at which we can make bulk components.
2. Can the AEGIS R&D Doff be a purple doff, please? Having it as a white doff means that it's going to accidentally get fed to a Starbase, which I do not think anyone wants.
Some more thoughts after some more work with the new system.
1. Please add in an option to craft components in bulks of 10. Given the amount needed to craft some weapon/console etc., it is quite strenuous to craft 100 of these components. The time it takes to craft would depend on the amount of items crafted (1 component - 5 secs; 10 components - 50 secs).
2. It would be nice if the skill points earned for crafting components would be slightly increased. In the recent state, you craft 'till your mouse dies, but you don't see any progress.
3. Are there only white special R&D DOFFs?
4. Why does the R&D stuff appear on top of the list when selling stuff to a vendor?
Although I'm usually not really fond of extra mouseclicks, I'd suggest to split the selling option up into R&D and regular inventory.
If this has been stated before, my sincere apologies, but I don't have the time to read hundreds of posts.
But I have also found something positive. I like that I now can see what kind of material I'm about to scan. Gives me the chance to decide if I need to do the scan or if I already have enough of this specific material.
"I came from a time long gone, saw many other times...
But I'm still a mere human."
Vice Admiral Chris Curtiss, Temporal Ambassador
I remember a time when you bought an online game's disks in a store, and installed it on your PC. Every subsequent expansion had to be purchased. If you were a new player, 4 expansions in, you had to buy the original game AND every xpac afterwards to catch up. Everyone with the current xpac had paid the same price for the game, regardless of when they started playing. This is essentially fair.
After a few years of this tho, as successful MMOs accumulated expansions, this started to become a huge deterrent to new players. Then some one came up with the novel idea of each new expansion including all the ones prior. Seems logical to me... you buy the game, once, as it is NOW, then join the ranks of those who must buy the next expansion. Right?
Then there's the folks who scream scam, cheat, greedy, because THEY had to buy each expansion, and newer players didn't. They are correct... to a degree. But the sad reality is that it is just not feasible to go back to the old way.
The newest trend is free to play games where purchasing the game, or any expansions, is being phased out entirely. Oh, the wailing and gnashing of teeth!
That's how I see the conversion of the old crafting system to the new.
They have said they are working on some way to compensate master crafters. Unless they automagically give said crafters max level with the new system, there will be a massive outcry. I confess, I'd love to see that happen to my crafter. However, the new system is better than the old even as a work in progress. It will require much more effort, time, and resources to level up in it. Everyone who has played STO and just never bothered with the mostly-useless system, or any new players, will feel massively cheated. They are already going to be upset that current crafters have a HUGE head start because the materials we can convert were MUCH easier to obtain.
As I see it, PW really can't win. The best they could do is give master crafters 50% credit (or less since imo the new craftables and system is more than twice as good). Even then, people will be screaming. It was not THAT difficult to level the old system. It really wasn't. And this new system needs to happen.
If you're still reading this, my lil rant is done now I try to avoid forums because sifting thru all the negativity to find a nugget of useful information is very tedious and depressing to me. Just felt a need to toss my 2 cents out there tho.
*hands out trays of cheese to go with all the whine*
The irony in all this is that even if they gave all current max level crafters level 20 in all schools in the new system, the chances are that very few of them would ever craft even a single item under the new system.
The irony in all this is that even if they gave all current max level crafters level 20 in all schools in the new system, the chances are that very few of them would ever craft even a single item under the new system.
They would. New procs are more powerful.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
The irony in all this is that even if they gave all current max level crafters level 20 in all schools in the new system, the chances are that very few of them would ever craft even a single item under the new system.
Not entirely true. If folks all started out at 20 in all Crafting Schools, you could gamble on only the crafting-specific gear; those items have a base quality of Very Rare and a crit success of Ultra Rare, making those at least reasonable to gamble on. Add in the promised [Mod] replacement system, and the it would be a drastically different situation, and starting out at 20 would completely bypass the massive time-gating of the new system. I know I'd certainly dive right on in. Heck, I'd be fine with delaying the Crafting Revamp to Season 10 if we could get a complete system rather than doing the random stuff now and the customization later, but that (like most everything else in this post) is a personal opinion.
If it was even reasonable to progress your crafting rank I might bother with it, but the inclusion of the Timer/Buyout system from Neverwinter means that for that system to be effective (in getting you to spend dilithium) the Timer has to be long enough that you might give up and Buyout. Compared to the current system where you can sit down and craft items using a ~5 sec Progress Bar, the new system is sooooo much slower, both in advancement and actual crafting of items.
The change to {gather materials->manufacture components->assemble items} rather than the old {gather materials->assemble items} exacerbates this. While there are now less materials to gather (10 Particle Traces, 18 Data Samples, 2 Unreplicatable Materials -> 6 Gasses, 6 Metals, 6 Particles), the addition of eight components used in each Crafting School adds both an additional leg to making any given item and additional crafting materials. There is some component overlap (especially among weapons), but the gains from reducing the number of materials are completely negated by adding a plethora of components.
Suggestion: Remove the entire need for components. For example, when making the Aegis Hyper-Impulse Engine, rather than requiring...
4 Lab Equipment
4 Industrial Replicator Supplies
2 Electromagnetic Coupling (not from this Crafting School, should be Coolant Injector)
2 Plasma Capacitor
2 Rerouting Lattice
2 Ejection System
2 Warp Field Regulator (1000 dilithium w/ current Tribble build) (On an Impules Engine? Really?)
1 Intermix Chamber (5000 dilithium w/ current Tribble build)
...you could instead simply use the Gas, Metal, and Particle costs of the underlying components. If you retained the existing Unreplicatable Materials in place of the dilithium costs on the Very Rare components and utilized the materials directly, it would take...
30 Magnesite
20 Hydrazine Gas
6 Hexaflourine Gas
4 Thoron Particle
12 Rubidium
6 Z-Particle
12 Radiogenic Particle
6 Trellium-K
7 Uncommon Unreplicatable Materials (rename to Enriched Dilithium so it's still a "new" material?)
...instead. This would streamline the process, allow the "reduced crafting materials" to become a reality rather than semantics, and avoid having to deal with naming the components (the Warp Field Regulator on an Impulse Engine, for example) and listings bugs (requiring an Electromagnetic Coupling rather than a Coolant Injector, though the materials costs are the same). Really, the entire component aspect seems like it creates unnecessary work for both devs and crafters.
The costs of the system are still being adjusted according to the most recent Tribble Patch Notes, but it's not just the cost that creates disincentives to use the new Crafting Revamp. If current players started at 20, or even just got a noticeable Crafting School XP bonus for the "R+D - Dabbler" and "R+D - Genius" Accolades, I can see the system being much more widely used. As it is, the time to craft and the time to rank your crafting skills still need significant adjustment. The system itself could use some cleaning up as well, but that is far less likely to occur, sadly.
Still, the dilithium cost was adjusted to a somewhat more reasonable level, so maybe the advancement, timers, etc. will be adjusted as well. At this point, let's just wait and see. The real test will be the final patch to hit Tribble before Season 9.5 is scheduled to hit Holodeck; since we don't have a final build, we can only provide feedback on what we do have access to.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
The progression curve as others have mentioned is slow and way out of proportion. I do understand you don't want people done in a few days but the sheer time and resource cost to increase from 2 to 3 is ridiculous and will get slower from there as the time needed to gather all the resources just to make the items needed for leveling.
I would recommend as others have adding the ability to craft components in batches to alleviate some of the time sink or remove components all together and just require the resources. I know this is a different game but I would recommend taking a look at the SW:TOR crafting system. It is divided into schools such as you are doing with this one and is time gated on how long it takes to craft an item but it's timers are much more reasonable. IE: 1 Top Tier Armoring or Item Modification takes about 35 to 45 minutes to craft depending on the the assigned crafter's bonuses and affection in the companion system they use. You can also assign up 5 items to craft per companion for a maximum of 25 items scheduled at one time.
The best way to look at progression speed is can a player level up at least 1 school at the same rate that they level the character learning it. I'm not recommending making it possible to level all of the schools with the character but if a player can level 1 school as they level the toon they will be able to make and sell items on the exchange that will enable them to buy crafted items from other players from the schools they aren't leveling. This also give a boost to the in game economy and keep the prices from getting out of control because of all the materials and advancement that many players will get because of stockpiles of Dilithium and Crafting materials for conversion
Also by removing the component step of the process you alleviate making players go back and forth between what they are trying to craft and back to the schools to make the right components.
My best suggestion is look at several MMOs with Good Crafting systems and try to make something that the playerbase will find useful and not just a nightmare grind. There have been many great suggestion throughout this thread and others, please take the time to actually review them and use some of the advice. You asked us for feedback, please listen to it
Here are a few feedback items of the crafting system and some of the changes currently as they are on Tribble. Before I go over my feedback, I would like to thank the Cryptic team for listening to the feedback we have posted so far about this system and making the changes we asked for to make this better. These are my top 4 critiques of the current iteration of the crafting system/9.5 changes.
1. Add the additional crafting material gathering doff missions back into the new exploration zones to supplement what we find out in the maps.
Whenever I entered an exploration zone map, I found that the number of doff missions that rewarded crafting materials increased versus any other sector map. I could easily visit 2-3 clusters and have up to 12-15 of these doff assignments running at the same time from those two clusters and the sector maps it took to get to them. This will also help to offset a majority of the negative feedback about the loss of the exploration zones in 9.5 in regards to the loss of crafting materials.
2. Reduce the XP requirements per crafting level or increase the XP rewards for crafting components and gear.
3. Reduce the crafting time for all the item projects.
In Al Rivera's Priority One interview, he stated that leveling up to level 15 in a crafting school should take about as much time as completing a reputation to tier 5. So at most on any rep system available now, I would have to spend 1 hour for 2 days a week getting at least enough marks to cover my daily rep projects for the week, and no more than 10 minutes the other 5 days a week to log in and collect my rep XP and start the next project.
3 hours a week x 6 weeks (40 days) = 18 hours of actual button clicking and a lot of waiting...
So hearing that interview and having the aforementioned example in mind, it pained me to find that at the current XP rates for components/items and crafting time constraints... makes this comparative example absolutely impossible. I would have had to EITHER log in for 5 minutes every hour for 9 hours OR stay logged in for 9 hours total to get from level 2 to level 3. I have a life and cant stay logged on for 9 hours in a sitting or hover around my PC for 9 hours in a day. This also isn't taking into account any additional time to gather any of the components I may need in order to do any crafting all together. And even worse is that it will take 3x that to go from 4 to 5 alone! Plus there are STILL TEN LEVELS after that before I can make something of any real value that wont automatically end up as vendor trash!
I understand that there has to be a time investment in this crafting system to get the good stuff at the end, but trying to get to a point where I can even attempt to craft that good stuff shouldn't use my time like a 2nd full time job! I know these arent final numbers, but for the love of Spock the are abhorrent right now.
4. Give the crafting accolades (i.e. Dabbler, Genius) some form of reward for achieving them. Maybe a free +10% crafting XP on all components and projects. Or even a free blue R+D duty officer of the players choice.
Thats about all I have right now. Sorry if I duplicated anyone elses feedback, but I wasnt going to read through 57+ pages of posts... lol
3. Reduce the crafting time for all the item projects.
In Al Rivera's Priority One interview, he stated that leveling up to level 15 in a crafting school should take about as much time as completing a reputation to tier 5. So at most on any rep system available now, I would have to spend 1 hour for 2 days a week getting at least enough marks to cover my daily rep projects for the week, and no more than 10 minutes the other 5 days a week to log in and collect my rep XP and start the next project.
3 hours a week x 6 weeks (40 days) = 18 hours of actual button clicking and a lot of waiting...
I agree, given it takes 45 days for a single player to reach Tier 5 Reptuation and Geko saying he expects us to spend 45 days per crafting school is pure insanity. Because it would take an entire year to complete all 8 schools to Level 15. And on top of it, the max is level 20 (unless that's changed).
I'm sorry, Geko but you people are making crafting even more unappealing than the Dilithum Tax with the previous version. Now there is not only more requirements to spend Dilithum, but Zen and a huge time investment. I think people will just pass up this new crafting system. Oh sure there might be a few, but the vast majority (I say 97% of the playerbase) will not bother in the long-run (after a few weeks).
You got to remember you got Fleet stores and Reputation stores that you can get stuff now, and players will not wait an entire year for these high end goodies. Especially when there is a strong possibility that whatever Seasons is to come, better gear might come out.
So I think you people are just shooting yourselves in the foot again and wasting precious development time on another failed system.
Here is another one where things do not make sense...because some subcomponents are shared among different schools...e.g. Electromagnetic Couplings, subcomponent crafting should be separate of crafting in any of the schools bu subcomponent recipes should be given out for respective levels in particular schools. I say this because let's say I am lvl 5 in Cannons and lvl 0 in Projectiles. If I try to craft an Electromagnetic Coupling for Cannons I have a +50 but in Projectiles to craft the same subcomponent it is +0??? That makes no sense whatsoever even from a design perspective.
I agree, given it takes 45 days for a single player to reach Tier 5 Reptuation and Geko saying he expects us to spend 45 days per crafting school is pure insanity. Because it would take an entire year to complete all 8 schools to Level 15. And on top of it, the max is level 20 (unless that's changed).
Yeah if it is 45 days per school they are shooting for, then they are way off on their calculations. It would take about 32 days of CONTINUOUS crafting to max out a single school, that is 24/7 crafting projects running.
Yeah if it is 45 days per school they are shooting for, then they are way off on their calculations. It would take about 32 days of CONTINUOUS crafting to max out a single school, that is 24/7 crafting projects running.
Yeah, and that amount of resources .......... well lets just say I'm sure it's not going to be easy to acquire.
They said they want Crafting to be fun, but so far I see nothing fun about this new system. And I've crafted in many MMOs since Everquest. Those other crafting were fun to do and I could sit there for hours, but not THIS. They need to increase the fun factor by a large margin or nobody will be willing to do this. Especially when it's treated like another reputation grind.
You hear me Devs? Get the cotton out of your ears and make STO crafting fun. Else those who left with Season 8.5, 9 will not bother coming back since all they see is just another stupid grind. People are done with grinding, that's why your population is dropping like flies now and they are going to your competitors.
With the forever ongoing discussion on whether Crafting (especially with randomization) should even have Dilithium cost:
What if you get Dilithium back from a Crafting mission that doesn't deliver a Very Rare result?
(Be it in refined or unrefined form, I leave that to the devs decide).
Not sure if the DOFF reward system can handle that - normally, it only gives out more with better results, in this particularly case, it would give more with worse results.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I agree, given it takes 45 days for a single player to reach Tier 5 Reptuation and Geko saying he expects us to spend 45 days per crafting school is pure insanity. Because it would take an entire year to complete all 8 schools to Level 15. And on top of it, the max is level 20 (unless that's changed)..
Then don't try to finish every school at once? Pick one and trade for the rest. Put the MM back into this MMORPG.
In addition, you can earn Very Rare materials by participating in queued events, and you can purchase R&D packs from the C-Store, which will give you an assortment of materials.
...which means it's probably going to be tough finding them for testing since pugging generally doesn't work on Tribble without a Tribble Test Weekend (assuming those are still a possibility). If you really want info on drop rates or the drops themselves, check for a Fleet to join on Tribble, or recruit 4 friends to join you over on Tribble to run a couple ESTFs. Of course, since I haven't done so I can't guarantee that the drops have been added to the queues just yet, Tribble being a test build after all.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
- The ability to craft new weapon types like omni beams and wide arc DHCs
I'd like to be able to craft more than just the basic damage types though. It would be nice to make an omni-directional protonic polaron beam, for example.
What I don't like:
- The doff UI takes way too much screen space. It looks like an UI designed for a tablet or smartphone. I think the old UI was easier to sort through.
Either condense the UI to a smaller size per row or at least make better use of the screen space. You could add a button next to needed materials to auto-replicate them, for example. Also, multi-column layouts are not a bad thing. You just have to organize them well.
- Crafting should not be random, at least not when major costs are involved. The prices of fleet gear seem to be acceptable for the player base, so you could use them as orientation.
I'm willing to pay up to 50k dilithium for a specific highend piece of equipment with predetermined attributes, no big deal. But not for the mere chance of getting something decent. If I want to play the dili/zen lottery, I open lock boxes. I don't need another game of chance.
How about a system where a critical success unlocks a random modfier or a new special damage type instead? (if you really, really must have some randomness in the system)
I highly doubt I'm gonna use the crafting system in it's current form (unless there have been some changes since I last checked)
Lots of skillrating bugfixes and math changes coming soon.
Will any of these math changes address the time it takes to level to 15. Currently there is a mismatch (as has been said by others) between what has been said about the time, and what currently is on Tribble.
Will any of these math changes address the time it takes to level to 15. Currently there is a mismatch (as has been said by others) between what has been said about the time, and what currently is on Tribble.
No - but your quoted post does not seem to take into account multiple slots allowing you to progress more quickly than 10 xp per minute, which the XP curve assumes you will use. Slots 4 and 5 are actually totally bonus and were added in playtesting, and we didn't go back and scale XP around them. By my calculations, it will take 350 hours of R+D to hit level 15, almost all of which can be offline time assuming a large starting resource stockpile.
The system's supposed to be a long-term goal for level 15, and even more so for level 20. Not everyone will like that, but some people will like it very much.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
No - but your quoted post does not seem to take into account multiple slots allowing you to progress more quickly than 10 xp per minute, which the XP curve assumes you will use. Slots 4 and 5 are actually totally bonus and were added in playtesting, and we didn't go back and scale XP around them. By my calculations, it will take 350 hours of R+D to hit level 15, almost all of which can be offline time assuming a large starting resource stockpile.
The system's supposed to be a long-term goal for level 15, and even more so for level 20. Not everyone will like that, but some people will like it very much.
It will take ~279 hrs of continuous crafting 24/7 to hit lvl 15 at 2,400 XP/hour (four slots assuming you stop and level two other schools to 5). But all metrics for this game are built around 4-hr play sessions (as we are told). Not continuous play sessions. Although you say you can level up continuously this is simply not true because one person cannot make the higher level items that have a longer timer alone. We simply do not have access to those schematics, nor will people have an unlimited pool of resources.
The best strategy I have found so far for crafting leveling is making only MK VI items to sell off as vendor junk. That means in a 4hr play session I can get 9,600 XP. This also means to reach level 15 it will take me ~70 4hr play sessions.
Nevertheless, the XP curves are way too steep as this puts even one crafting school at nearly twice the time gate of a reputation system.
It will take ~279 hrs of continuous crafting 24/7 to hit lvl 15 at 2,400 XP/hour (four slots assuming you stop and level two other schools to 5). But all metrics for this game are built around 4-hr play sessions (as we are told). Not continuous play sessions. Although you say you can level up continuously this is simply not true because one person cannot make the higher level items that have a longer timer alone. We simply do not have access to those schematics, nor will people have an unlimited pool of resources.
The best strategy I have found so far for crafting leveling is making only MK VI items to sell off as vendor junk. That means in a 4hr play session I can get 9,600 XP. This also means to reach level 15 it will take me ~70 4hr play sessions.
Nevertheless, the XP curves are way too steep as this puts even one crafting school at nearly twice the time gate of a reputation system.
Math isn't cryptic strong suite. You may have noticed them mixing up fractions and percentages on tool tips. Still not seeing any improvements that will make this system friendly for the average player.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
No - but your quoted post does not seem to take into account multiple slots allowing you to progress more quickly than 10 xp per minute, which the XP curve assumes you will use. Slots 4 and 5 are actually totally bonus and were added in playtesting, and we didn't go back and scale XP around them. By my calculations, it will take 350 hours of R+D to hit level 15, almost all of which can be offline time assuming a large starting resource stockpile.
The system's supposed to be a long-term goal for level 15, and even more so for level 20. Not everyone will like that, but some people will like it very much.
350 hours? No. 350 hours to get the ability to gamble for something you MIGHT want is unacceptable. And when you say "large stockpile," do you know what that means? I fully expect to consume max stacks of raw materials before that point because of the Components required. It was almost okay to take a month for a Reputation, when you could get passable or even desirable gear along the WAY. You're saying 350 hours - at my average play time of 6 hours a day, almost two months, and at 24 hours a day two weeks - to be able to GAMBLE for the CHANCE at the item you actually WANT?
NO. I love Crafting. You just killed my desire to use this system. Your terms are unacceptable. The time requirement must be lowered. Considerably. 100 hours, if you still wanted it to be a difficult time investment. Because Reputations, while technically requiring twice that, can be done passively. This system really cannot if you expect to make any sort of headway. Those other two crafting slots are practically required to produce Components for the next item you're going to waste materials on for XP. Either make the gear you make at non-level-15 worthwhile, or triple XP gains. Otherwise, this will be WORSE than the crafting system currently on live - after all, barely anyone uses THAT. Less people will use this.
It will take ~279 hrs of continuous crafting 24/7 to hit lvl 15 at 2,400 XP/hour (four slots assuming you stop and level two other schools to 5). But all metrics for this game are built around 4-hr play sessions (as we are told). Not continuous play sessions. Although you say you can level up continuously this is simply not true because one person cannot make the higher level items that have a longer timer alone. We simply do not have access to those schematics, nor will people have an unlimited pool of resources.
The best strategy I have found so far for crafting leveling is making only MK VI items to sell off as vendor junk. That means in a 4hr play session I can get 9,600 XP. This also means to reach level 15 it will take me ~70 4hr play sessions.
Nevertheless, the XP curves are way too steep as this puts even one crafting school at nearly twice the time gate of a reputation system.
QFT. Hawk, a lot of people are not seeing what you apparently can. If there is some way to stack projects, I don't think anyone can see it. Now, if there is a way that you can harvest a bunch of material, and then que up like 24 hours worth of projects, then sure, 350 hours is fine, as long as I don't have to be awake for all of it. But from what I last saw on tribble, this isn't the case.
EDIT: Ninja'd. Curse me for using a tablet. Okay, waiting for the next update. Also, if you don't want the rage, may I respectfully request that next update you release in an incomplete state you put out something that states your total picturefor the system and say in the tribble patch notes when you implement it?
I would respectfully request that you holster your outrage until the next patch to Tribble.
And by saying this, you have increased expectations for people who are already jaded about this system due to several glaringly bad design decisions. I honestly hope for the sake of your sanity that this patch fixes the system.
Though, if you'd like a tip, Geko said (on Priority One) that mod customization was being built in, but wouldn't be ready until later. Frankly, I don't think anyone would mind if you pushed the 9.5 launch back two months to make sure the system would be done at launch. A lot of STO's problems - especially problems that it launched with - were due to the game having to be rushed out the door. Unless there's some massive thing where you HAVE to launch this this month (which, if there is, you could try explaining), push it back and give it the time it needs. Frankly, I'd rather wait 2 more months for a finished system than have the system as is now.
Though, if you'd like a tip, Geko said (on Priority One) that mod customization was being built in, but wouldn't be ready until later. Frankly, I don't think anyone would mind if you pushed the 9.5 launch back two months to make sure the system would be done at launch. A lot of STO's problems - especially problems that it launched with - were due to the game having to be rushed out the door. Unless there's some massive thing where you HAVE to launch this this month (which, if there is, you could try explaining), push it back and give it the time it needs. Frankly, I'd rather wait 2 more months for a finished system than have the system as is now.
I'm a game designer, not a producer or a director. I don't control release schedules. And while I'm familiar with the reasonings behind our particular schedule, as it's not my purview, it wouldn't really be kosher to talk about it.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Maybe an official master list of features the complete system will include, not including the stuff you already have, with their tentative release dates...
Comments
Please give us some way of being able to trade in samples for other samples at the very least if we cant have our cluster 'scan 5 anomalies' missions anymore.
Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
1. Can we have a way to filter out the blue components from the crafting tab? Right now we have purple components by default hidden, can this apply to blue? This would speed up/improve the speed at which we can make bulk components.
2. Can the AEGIS R&D Doff be a purple doff, please? Having it as a white doff means that it's going to accidentally get fed to a Starbase, which I do not think anyone wants.
1. Please add in an option to craft components in bulks of 10. Given the amount needed to craft some weapon/console etc., it is quite strenuous to craft 100 of these components. The time it takes to craft would depend on the amount of items crafted (1 component - 5 secs; 10 components - 50 secs).
2. It would be nice if the skill points earned for crafting components would be slightly increased. In the recent state, you craft 'till your mouse dies, but you don't see any progress.
3. Are there only white special R&D DOFFs?
4. Why does the R&D stuff appear on top of the list when selling stuff to a vendor?
Although I'm usually not really fond of extra mouseclicks, I'd suggest to split the selling option up into R&D and regular inventory.
If this has been stated before, my sincere apologies, but I don't have the time to read hundreds of posts.
But I have also found something positive. I like that I now can see what kind of material I'm about to scan. Gives me the chance to decide if I need to do the scan or if I already have enough of this specific material.
But I'm still a mere human."
Vice Admiral Chris Curtiss, Temporal Ambassador
After a few years of this tho, as successful MMOs accumulated expansions, this started to become a huge deterrent to new players. Then some one came up with the novel idea of each new expansion including all the ones prior. Seems logical to me... you buy the game, once, as it is NOW, then join the ranks of those who must buy the next expansion. Right?
Then there's the folks who scream scam, cheat, greedy, because THEY had to buy each expansion, and newer players didn't. They are correct... to a degree. But the sad reality is that it is just not feasible to go back to the old way.
The newest trend is free to play games where purchasing the game, or any expansions, is being phased out entirely. Oh, the wailing and gnashing of teeth!
That's how I see the conversion of the old crafting system to the new.
They have said they are working on some way to compensate master crafters. Unless they automagically give said crafters max level with the new system, there will be a massive outcry. I confess, I'd love to see that happen to my crafter. However, the new system is better than the old even as a work in progress. It will require much more effort, time, and resources to level up in it. Everyone who has played STO and just never bothered with the mostly-useless system, or any new players, will feel massively cheated. They are already going to be upset that current crafters have a HUGE head start because the materials we can convert were MUCH easier to obtain.
As I see it, PW really can't win. The best they could do is give master crafters 50% credit (or less since imo the new craftables and system is more than twice as good). Even then, people will be screaming. It was not THAT difficult to level the old system. It really wasn't. And this new system needs to happen.
If you're still reading this, my lil rant is done now
*hands out trays of cheese to go with all the whine*
Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
They would. New procs are more powerful.
Not entirely true. If folks all started out at 20 in all Crafting Schools, you could gamble on only the crafting-specific gear; those items have a base quality of Very Rare and a crit success of Ultra Rare, making those at least reasonable to gamble on. Add in the promised [Mod] replacement system, and the it would be a drastically different situation, and starting out at 20 would completely bypass the massive time-gating of the new system. I know I'd certainly dive right on in. Heck, I'd be fine with delaying the Crafting Revamp to Season 10 if we could get a complete system rather than doing the random stuff now and the customization later, but that (like most everything else in this post) is a personal opinion.
If it was even reasonable to progress your crafting rank I might bother with it, but the inclusion of the Timer/Buyout system from Neverwinter means that for that system to be effective (in getting you to spend dilithium) the Timer has to be long enough that you might give up and Buyout. Compared to the current system where you can sit down and craft items using a ~5 sec Progress Bar, the new system is sooooo much slower, both in advancement and actual crafting of items.
The change to {gather materials->manufacture components->assemble items} rather than the old {gather materials->assemble items} exacerbates this. While there are now less materials to gather (10 Particle Traces, 18 Data Samples, 2 Unreplicatable Materials -> 6 Gasses, 6 Metals, 6 Particles), the addition of eight components used in each Crafting School adds both an additional leg to making any given item and additional crafting materials. There is some component overlap (especially among weapons), but the gains from reducing the number of materials are completely negated by adding a plethora of components.
Suggestion: Remove the entire need for components. For example, when making the Aegis Hyper-Impulse Engine, rather than requiring...
- 4 Lab Equipment
- 4 Industrial Replicator Supplies
- 2 Electromagnetic Coupling (not from this Crafting School, should be Coolant Injector)
- 2 Plasma Capacitor
- 2 Rerouting Lattice
- 2 Ejection System
- 2 Warp Field Regulator (1000 dilithium w/ current Tribble build) (On an Impules Engine? Really?)
- 1 Intermix Chamber (5000 dilithium w/ current Tribble build)
...you could instead simply use the Gas, Metal, and Particle costs of the underlying components. If you retained the existing Unreplicatable Materials in place of the dilithium costs on the Very Rare components and utilized the materials directly, it would take...- 30 Magnesite
- 20 Hydrazine Gas
- 6 Hexaflourine Gas
- 4 Thoron Particle
- 12 Rubidium
- 6 Z-Particle
- 12 Radiogenic Particle
- 6 Trellium-K
- 7 Uncommon Unreplicatable Materials (rename to Enriched Dilithium so it's still a "new" material?)
...instead. This would streamline the process, allow the "reduced crafting materials" to become a reality rather than semantics, and avoid having to deal with naming the components (the Warp Field Regulator on an Impulse Engine, for example) and listings bugs (requiring an Electromagnetic Coupling rather than a Coolant Injector, though the materials costs are the same). Really, the entire component aspect seems like it creates unnecessary work for both devs and crafters.The costs of the system are still being adjusted according to the most recent Tribble Patch Notes, but it's not just the cost that creates disincentives to use the new Crafting Revamp. If current players started at 20, or even just got a noticeable Crafting School XP bonus for the "R+D - Dabbler" and "R+D - Genius" Accolades, I can see the system being much more widely used. As it is, the time to craft and the time to rank your crafting skills still need significant adjustment. The system itself could use some cleaning up as well, but that is far less likely to occur, sadly.
Still, the dilithium cost was adjusted to a somewhat more reasonable level, so maybe the advancement, timers, etc. will be adjusted as well. At this point, let's just wait and see. The real test will be the final patch to hit Tribble before Season 9.5 is scheduled to hit Holodeck; since we don't have a final build, we can only provide feedback on what we do have access to.
I would recommend as others have adding the ability to craft components in batches to alleviate some of the time sink or remove components all together and just require the resources. I know this is a different game but I would recommend taking a look at the SW:TOR crafting system. It is divided into schools such as you are doing with this one and is time gated on how long it takes to craft an item but it's timers are much more reasonable. IE: 1 Top Tier Armoring or Item Modification takes about 35 to 45 minutes to craft depending on the the assigned crafter's bonuses and affection in the companion system they use. You can also assign up 5 items to craft per companion for a maximum of 25 items scheduled at one time.
The best way to look at progression speed is can a player level up at least 1 school at the same rate that they level the character learning it. I'm not recommending making it possible to level all of the schools with the character but if a player can level 1 school as they level the toon they will be able to make and sell items on the exchange that will enable them to buy crafted items from other players from the schools they aren't leveling. This also give a boost to the in game economy and keep the prices from getting out of control because of all the materials and advancement that many players will get because of stockpiles of Dilithium and Crafting materials for conversion
Also by removing the component step of the process you alleviate making players go back and forth between what they are trying to craft and back to the schools to make the right components.
My best suggestion is look at several MMOs with Good Crafting systems and try to make something that the playerbase will find useful and not just a nightmare grind. There have been many great suggestion throughout this thread and others, please take the time to actually review them and use some of the advice. You asked us for feedback, please listen to it
1. Add the additional crafting material gathering doff missions back into the new exploration zones to supplement what we find out in the maps.
Whenever I entered an exploration zone map, I found that the number of doff missions that rewarded crafting materials increased versus any other sector map. I could easily visit 2-3 clusters and have up to 12-15 of these doff assignments running at the same time from those two clusters and the sector maps it took to get to them. This will also help to offset a majority of the negative feedback about the loss of the exploration zones in 9.5 in regards to the loss of crafting materials.
2. Reduce the XP requirements per crafting level or increase the XP rewards for crafting components and gear.
3. Reduce the crafting time for all the item projects.
In Al Rivera's Priority One interview, he stated that leveling up to level 15 in a crafting school should take about as much time as completing a reputation to tier 5. So at most on any rep system available now, I would have to spend 1 hour for 2 days a week getting at least enough marks to cover my daily rep projects for the week, and no more than 10 minutes the other 5 days a week to log in and collect my rep XP and start the next project.
3 hours a week x 6 weeks (40 days) = 18 hours of actual button clicking and a lot of waiting...
So hearing that interview and having the aforementioned example in mind, it pained me to find that at the current XP rates for components/items and crafting time constraints... makes this comparative example absolutely impossible. I would have had to EITHER log in for 5 minutes every hour for 9 hours OR stay logged in for 9 hours total to get from level 2 to level 3. I have a life and cant stay logged on for 9 hours in a sitting or hover around my PC for 9 hours in a day. This also isn't taking into account any additional time to gather any of the components I may need in order to do any crafting all together. And even worse is that it will take 3x that to go from 4 to 5 alone! Plus there are STILL TEN LEVELS after that before I can make something of any real value that wont automatically end up as vendor trash!
I understand that there has to be a time investment in this crafting system to get the good stuff at the end, but trying to get to a point where I can even attempt to craft that good stuff shouldn't use my time like a 2nd full time job! I know these arent final numbers, but for the love of Spock the are abhorrent right now.
4. Give the crafting accolades (i.e. Dabbler, Genius) some form of reward for achieving them. Maybe a free +10% crafting XP on all components and projects. Or even a free blue R+D duty officer of the players choice.
Thats about all I have right now. Sorry if I duplicated anyone elses feedback, but I wasnt going to read through 57+ pages of posts... lol
I agree, given it takes 45 days for a single player to reach Tier 5 Reptuation and Geko saying he expects us to spend 45 days per crafting school is pure insanity. Because it would take an entire year to complete all 8 schools to Level 15. And on top of it, the max is level 20 (unless that's changed).
I'm sorry, Geko but you people are making crafting even more unappealing than the Dilithum Tax with the previous version. Now there is not only more requirements to spend Dilithum, but Zen and a huge time investment. I think people will just pass up this new crafting system. Oh sure there might be a few, but the vast majority (I say 97% of the playerbase) will not bother in the long-run (after a few weeks).
You got to remember you got Fleet stores and Reputation stores that you can get stuff now, and players will not wait an entire year for these high end goodies. Especially when there is a strong possibility that whatever Seasons is to come, better gear might come out.
So I think you people are just shooting yourselves in the foot again and wasting precious development time on another failed system.
Yeah if it is 45 days per school they are shooting for, then they are way off on their calculations. It would take about 32 days of CONTINUOUS crafting to max out a single school, that is 24/7 crafting projects running.
Yeah, and that amount of resources .......... well lets just say I'm sure it's not going to be easy to acquire.
They said they want Crafting to be fun, but so far I see nothing fun about this new system. And I've crafted in many MMOs since Everquest. Those other crafting were fun to do and I could sit there for hours, but not THIS. They need to increase the fun factor by a large margin or nobody will be willing to do this. Especially when it's treated like another reputation grind.
You hear me Devs? Get the cotton out of your ears and make STO crafting fun. Else those who left with Season 8.5, 9 will not bother coming back since all they see is just another stupid grind. People are done with grinding, that's why your population is dropping like flies now and they are going to your competitors.
What if you get Dilithium back from a Crafting mission that doesn't deliver a Very Rare result?
(Be it in refined or unrefined form, I leave that to the devs decide).
Not sure if the DOFF reward system can handle that - normally, it only gives out more with better results, in this particularly case, it would give more with worse results.
Then don't try to finish every school at once? Pick one and trade for the rest. Put the MM back into this MMORPG.
From Dev Blog #26...
...which means it's probably going to be tough finding them for testing since pugging generally doesn't work on Tribble without a Tribble Test Weekend (assuming those are still a possibility). If you really want info on drop rates or the drops themselves, check for a Fleet to join on Tribble, or recruit 4 friends to join you over on Tribble to run a couple ESTFs. Of course, since I haven't done so I can't guarantee that the drops have been added to the queues just yet, Tribble being a test build after all.
- Extra inventory space for crafting components
- The ability to craft new weapon types like omni beams and wide arc DHCs
I'd like to be able to craft more than just the basic damage types though. It would be nice to make an omni-directional protonic polaron beam, for example.
What I don't like:
- The doff UI takes way too much screen space. It looks like an UI designed for a tablet or smartphone. I think the old UI was easier to sort through.
Either condense the UI to a smaller size per row or at least make better use of the screen space. You could add a button next to needed materials to auto-replicate them, for example. Also, multi-column layouts are not a bad thing. You just have to organize them well.
- Crafting should not be random, at least not when major costs are involved. The prices of fleet gear seem to be acceptable for the player base, so you could use them as orientation.
I'm willing to pay up to 50k dilithium for a specific highend piece of equipment with predetermined attributes, no big deal. But not for the mere chance of getting something decent. If I want to play the dili/zen lottery, I open lock boxes. I don't need another game of chance.
How about a system where a critical success unlocks a random modfier or a new special damage type instead? (if you really, really must have some randomness in the system)
I highly doubt I'm gonna use the crafting system in it's current form (unless there have been some changes since I last checked)
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Looking forward to it. I have my spreadsheet all set up to just plug in new numbers.
Will any of these math changes address the time it takes to level to 15. Currently there is a mismatch (as has been said by others) between what has been said about the time, and what currently is on Tribble.
Please see here: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=17844131&postcount=571
And here: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=17768691&postcount=493 (this has a quote of the full xp progression).
They said it better than I could.
Nouveau riche LTS member
No - but your quoted post does not seem to take into account multiple slots allowing you to progress more quickly than 10 xp per minute, which the XP curve assumes you will use. Slots 4 and 5 are actually totally bonus and were added in playtesting, and we didn't go back and scale XP around them. By my calculations, it will take 350 hours of R+D to hit level 15, almost all of which can be offline time assuming a large starting resource stockpile.
The system's supposed to be a long-term goal for level 15, and even more so for level 20. Not everyone will like that, but some people will like it very much.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
It will take ~279 hrs of continuous crafting 24/7 to hit lvl 15 at 2,400 XP/hour (four slots assuming you stop and level two other schools to 5). But all metrics for this game are built around 4-hr play sessions (as we are told). Not continuous play sessions. Although you say you can level up continuously this is simply not true because one person cannot make the higher level items that have a longer timer alone. We simply do not have access to those schematics, nor will people have an unlimited pool of resources.
The best strategy I have found so far for crafting leveling is making only MK VI items to sell off as vendor junk. That means in a 4hr play session I can get 9,600 XP. This also means to reach level 15 it will take me ~70 4hr play sessions.
Nevertheless, the XP curves are way too steep as this puts even one crafting school at nearly twice the time gate of a reputation system.
Math isn't cryptic strong suite. You may have noticed them mixing up fractions and percentages on tool tips. Still not seeing any improvements that will make this system friendly for the average player.
- Judge Aaron Satie
350 hours? No. 350 hours to get the ability to gamble for something you MIGHT want is unacceptable. And when you say "large stockpile," do you know what that means? I fully expect to consume max stacks of raw materials before that point because of the Components required. It was almost okay to take a month for a Reputation, when you could get passable or even desirable gear along the WAY. You're saying 350 hours - at my average play time of 6 hours a day, almost two months, and at 24 hours a day two weeks - to be able to GAMBLE for the CHANCE at the item you actually WANT?
NO. I love Crafting. You just killed my desire to use this system. Your terms are unacceptable. The time requirement must be lowered. Considerably. 100 hours, if you still wanted it to be a difficult time investment. Because Reputations, while technically requiring twice that, can be done passively. This system really cannot if you expect to make any sort of headway. Those other two crafting slots are practically required to produce Components for the next item you're going to waste materials on for XP. Either make the gear you make at non-level-15 worthwhile, or triple XP gains. Otherwise, this will be WORSE than the crafting system currently on live - after all, barely anyone uses THAT. Less people will use this.
Also, where are our Kit recipes?
I would respectfully request that you holster your outrage until the next patch to Tribble.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
QFT. Hawk, a lot of people are not seeing what you apparently can. If there is some way to stack projects, I don't think anyone can see it. Now, if there is a way that you can harvest a bunch of material, and then que up like 24 hours worth of projects, then sure, 350 hours is fine, as long as I don't have to be awake for all of it. But from what I last saw on tribble, this isn't the case.
EDIT: Ninja'd. Curse me for using a tablet. Okay, waiting for the next update. Also, if you don't want the rage, may I respectfully request that next update you release in an incomplete state you put out something that states your total picturefor the system and say in the tribble patch notes when you implement it?
Nouveau riche LTS member
And by saying this, you have increased expectations for people who are already jaded about this system due to several glaringly bad design decisions. I honestly hope for the sake of your sanity that this patch fixes the system.
Though, if you'd like a tip, Geko said (on Priority One) that mod customization was being built in, but wouldn't be ready until later. Frankly, I don't think anyone would mind if you pushed the 9.5 launch back two months to make sure the system would be done at launch. A lot of STO's problems - especially problems that it launched with - were due to the game having to be rushed out the door. Unless there's some massive thing where you HAVE to launch this this month (which, if there is, you could try explaining), push it back and give it the time it needs. Frankly, I'd rather wait 2 more months for a finished system than have the system as is now.
I'm a game designer, not a producer or a director. I don't control release schedules. And while I'm familiar with the reasonings behind our particular schedule, as it's not my purview, it wouldn't really be kosher to talk about it.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton