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Is the Dilithium Exchange price fixed?

eisenshorneisenshorn Member Posts: 0 Arc User
I've never seen it below 125. And it seems to me that various powers that be would have a vested interest in keeping the dilithium exchange rate above 100. The reasons that follow:

1) Cryptic want you to buy zen.

They want you to spend money on this game. That is the reason that everything is so difficult to grind for. The idea is to create an environment where it seems more appealing to buy zen than it does to grind something.

Example: if the zen/dil exchange rate was 25/1 (25 dil for 1 zen) then a ship costing 2500 zen would only require 62,500 dilithium. This isn't too bad. You can generally grind 30,000 in a week if you're even half-dedicated to the cause.

But if the exchange is 150/1 (as it currently is) then it suddenly requires 375,000 dilithium to get 2500 zen. This intelligence bring about a sort of 'ah, sod it, I'll buy zen, it's easier' attitude within the person meaning that players generally end up buying zen more than they do grinding dilithium and, thus, securing Cryptic the money that it so loves to rub all over its body.

2) You always have to buy more zen than you need.

You can't buy a custom-amount of Zen. You always have to buy it in the amounts pre-determined by Cryptic. The amounts are all set so that (for ships at least, which is their cash-cow) you nearly always have to end up buying more zen than you actually need and, once you've spent that zen, never have enough zen left over to buy anything else. Leaving you with always just a tiny amount of zen left over which, in turn, encourages the user to buy more (well I have 350 zen...i this costome is 500...i'll just get 9.99 more...it's only 9.99....) though admittedly some of this can be thwarted by dilithium conversion (buying €19.999 then converting 30,000 dilithium gives you 2500 zen thereabouts but - again - always with a tiny amount left over.
Post edited by eisenshorn on
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Comments

  • antovarasantovaras Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    The dilithium exchange has an upper hard cap of 500/1 and a lower hard cap of 50/1.

    People have claimed, on occasion, that Cryptic manipulate the market but nothing more than wild supposition has been offered in support of those claims. Fast falling into the category do Dead Horse...
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  • artemisa0kartemisa0k Member Posts: 142 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Technically they do manipulate the market as evidenced by the exchange rate jump essentially every time they release a new box (with decent items) or a ship, sales also tend to cause a lesser jump depending on the item's.

    Might just be me but it seems sales and new item's seem to be released typically when the rate hits around 124 dilithium to 1 zen as well.
  • elandarkskyelandarksky Member Posts: 1,013 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    The exchange rate fluctuates with supply/demand and what other players are willing to buy/sell for.

    I do vaugely remeber it at 115ish when fleets were still fresh, people desperately needed dil, so the value of zen plummeted, but now there is more focus on zen again, lockbox junk, the new fed ship, reruns of the 'win a bug ship' doff packs etc.

    just gotta wait till everyone is bored of the current lock box and hope a new fleet side project is released, to knock the dilithum exchange to a more favorable position for dil miners :P
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  • chiyoumikuchiyoumiku Member Posts: 1,028 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Sorry but "cryptic" fixing the dil exchange is just a theory, like arc being "malware". The Dilithium exchange is player run and as long as we're paying those prices, and yes I'm guilty of this because I had to jockey some stuff around to get my Klingon's new deflector project done, it will stay at that rate.
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  • verlaine11verlaine11 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    It was down well below double figures a while back but has steadily gone up, at least you were not around when the exchange was 300+
  • mjarbarmjarbar Member Posts: 2,084 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    The thing is if it is player led wouldn't it be a lot lower so people could get a more favourable rate of exchange I.e. as close to 1:1 as possible?

    I have seen the rate go up every time there is an event but never seen it go down, at the end of the mirror event it went from the low 130's to low 140's, and when the two new ships came out just a couple of weeks ago the rate jumped again for no reason I can see up to the low 150's where it is now.

    So from my point of view and experience no it isn't player led and is set by Cryptic.
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  • kianazerokianazero Member Posts: 247 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    mjarbar wrote: »
    The thing is if it is player led wouldn't it be a lot lower so people could get a more favourable rate of exchange I.e. as close to 1:1 as possible?

    If you're buying Zen, then yeah. But if you're selling Zen, then no way.

    Say I have 500z, and you want to buy it.

    You offer me 500 dilithium for it, that's a 1-1. But that's too cheap a price for me, I can make more Dilith from a single normal difficulty STF run which is cakewalk for any of my alts, even ones with green Mk XI equipment.

    I tell you I want 250,000 dilithium for my 500z, that's a 500-1. But that's far too expensive for you to buy, and you can spend that dilithium on something (or rather, many somethings) instead of a small amount of zen.

    But another person comes by and says "I'll sell you my 500z for 150 dilith each." and maybe you take that deal instead. So maybe I'll make the offer for 145-1 so I can get something instead of never selling it at all.

    The dilith market IS run by the players, and greed is how markets run.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    mjarbar wrote: »
    The thing is if it is player led wouldn't it be a lot lower so people could get a more favourable rate of exchange I.e. as close to 1:1 as possible?

    I have seen the rate go up every time there is an event but never seen it go down, at the end of the mirror event it went from the low 130's to low 140's, and when the two new ships came out just a couple of weeks ago the rate jumped again for no reason I can see up to the low 150's where it is now.

    So from my point of view and experience no it isn't player led and is set by Cryptic.
    The more purchasable things Cryptic releases in a short period of time the more the Exchange rate goes up. Why? Because people want to buy the items being sold; and the players buying Zen to sell to the grinders realize they have grinders over a barrel.

    And in case people really suck at math, the difference between 135 and 150 Exchange rate is around 6 Zen a day - or 6 whole cents. That is what people are all antsy about around here: a shift in cost that means you lose 6 cents a day until it goes back down. Wow! 6 whole cents. :)

    So let us cover some basic economics. When there is a big demand for Dilithium the price drops - the Dilithium grinders are in control then. Where there is a big demand for Zen the price goes up - the Zen buyers are in control then. As Cryptic has not done a new Fleet Holding in months, and as many people are through the various Reputations, there is no big demand for Dilithium right now, and that has been driving the market up over the last couple of months.

    And all of the above is not even taking into account how much easier it is to get Dilithium now. Experienced players are earning their 8k limit in around 30 minutes when getting to the limit used to take 1-2+ hours. With Mining Claims, Contraband, and people doing ESTFs in under 5 minutes now there is just too much Dilithium out there, and that makes the price go up.

    When Cryptic starts adding more Fleet expansions, and Embassies - probably the next one will be in the Delta Quadrant - or even a new Dilithium Crafting system then you will see the Exchange prices go back down. But as long as there is no immediate demand for Dilithum the Zen sellers will have the upper hand.
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  • mjarbarmjarbar Member Posts: 2,084 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    kianazero wrote: »
    If you're buying Zen, then yeah. But if you're selling Zen, then no way.

    Say I have 500z, and you want to buy it.

    You offer me 500 dilithium for it, that's a 1-1. But that's too cheap a price for me, I can make more Dilith from a single normal difficulty STF run which is cakewalk for any of my alts, even ones with green Mk XI equipment.

    I tell you I want 250,000 dilithium for my 500z, that's a 500-1. But that's far too expensive for you to buy, and you can spend that dilithium on something (or rather, many somethings) instead of a small amount of zen.

    But another person comes by and says "I'll sell you my 500z for 150 dilith each." and maybe you take that deal instead. So maybe I'll make the offer for 145-1 so I can get something instead of never selling it at all.

    The dilith market IS run by the players, and greed is how markets run.

    Ah Ok when you put it like that then yes I can see how that works.

    Where I was coming from was that when I have gone to buy zen I have put in a rate just below the lowest rate posted and never had it taken up, and on top of that seen the rate hike every time a new event happens in game it looked to me that the two were linked.
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  • theroyalfamilytheroyalfamily Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    No, it's not fixed, certainly not with a min of 125. For a long time it was below that. I've seen it get down into the 80's. And you know what? People were crying back then that Cryptic was putting a price ceiling of 100!
  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    It isn't fixed - Cryptic can influence it - new ship releases, Mirror Event, Bonus Dil Event, new lockboxes, C-Store sales, new equipment releases, new reputations, nerfing and buffing content's Dil/time reward and a myriad of other ways can act to push up and down the value of Dil and Zen - but the price is up to players.

    Kianazero has already detailed how the price works, but the bottom line is someone, somewhere put real world money into the game for Zen - perhaps for C-Store stuff for their own use, perhaps to buy Dil so that they don't have to grind it out.

    Now, someone who is selling Zen to get Dil wants a very high Dil/Zen ratio. Someone grinding Dil out for Zen wants a low Dil/Zen ratio. Between the two is a compromise acceptable to both. Currently, that compromise is about 150 Dil for 1 Zen.


    This is the bit F2Pers forget - if it wasn't for the people who do buy Zen with real money, the F2Pers wouldn't get Zen.
  • hyefatherhyefather Member Posts: 1,286 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Cryptic investor walks into meeting. Says his granddaughter has a birthday this weekend and wants a pony. He mildly suggests that it would be bad if his granddaughter didn't get the pony and says something alone the lines of "Guess ill have to take the money I have invested in sto and buy her that pony" Cryptic says don't worry, we have our ways. To make a very long story short. The granddaughter gets the pony and YOU and ME bought it for her.
    A week passes by, cryptic dev has a great idea for a FE. He goes to pin the story, looks up and sees the grandfather walking through the front door. He wrinkles up the paper, throws it in the garbage and says " how can I help you grandfather". Grandfather says "pony died". Crypic dev says, Doesn't that make about 50 ponys. Grandfather just smiles. Story repeats until Sto goes the way COH.
  • eisenshorneisenshorn Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    The more purchasable things Cryptic releases in a short period of time the more the Exchange rate goes up. Why? Because people want to buy the items being sold; and the players buying Zen to sell to the grinders realize they have grinders over a barrel.

    My qualm is that the whole system, from the joke that is GPL to Dil to Lobi crystals to Fleet Credits seems almost exclusively designed to make it so difficult to grind anything without paying zen, that 9/10 the player just pays for the Zen.
  • antovarasantovaras Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    eisenshorn wrote: »
    My qualm is that the whole system, from the joke that is GPL to Dil to Lobi crystals to Fleet Credits seems almost exclusively designed to make it so difficult to grind anything without paying zen, that 9/10 the player just pays for the Zen.

    Takes about 20-30 minutes a day to max Dilithium ore, a couple of toons and some patience and nothing will cost you personally...
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  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Yes - and equally it means you can get, with very, very, very few exceptions, everything in game free (to you) apart from the time you invest.

    And equally, you can spend hundreds if not thousands of "insert preferred currency" - as lockbox gamblers tend to discover.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    eisenshorn wrote: »
    My qualm is that the whole system, from the joke that is GPL to Dil to Lobi crystals to Fleet Credits seems almost exclusively designed to make it so difficult to grind anything without paying zen, that 9/10 the player just pays for the Zen.
    Do a search on some of my posts. As it currently stands I have 78,000 Zen on this account. I have not purchased a single Zen since the game has gone FTP. I play less then 2 hours per day and easily grind out 4-5,000 Zen per month. There is nothing difficult about earning it. It simply requires the effort to do it rather then wanting immediate gratification without effort. I have many posts about doing this over the years on this forum.

    I do not open Lockboxes nor use Lobi. I have opened 25 or 26 Lockboxes since they were introduced to the game; and the majority of those were for the first Jem Bug Lockbox. I do not even do Lobi Events as I am vehemently opposed to the Lobi Store. I still have the same 96 Lobi that I have had for about a year now. Everything I buy comes directly from the Exchange or C-Store.

    I also suggest you do some research on FTP games and their revenue streams. In most FTP games only 5-10% of the player-base spends money. This means roughly 9 out of every 10 players never spend a dime in STO. The entire game is being supported by 5-10% of the players.

    But I do not tell other people what to spend their money on. If someone wants to dump $200.00 in Keys, good for them! If someone wants to buy 50,000 Dilithium for Zen because they do not have 2 days to make the 50k, good for them. Each player gets to make their own choices.

    I want Cryptic to make as much money as it can possibly make. 3 years ago the game was down to 20 Devs and was on life support. Now we are looking at our second free Expansion Pack coming this year and the Dev team is around 50. The money people choose to spend only benefits us all. And we all have an option to not spend any.
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  • aloishammeraloishammer Member Posts: 3,294 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Is the Dilithium Exchange price fixed?

    Of course. It's all rigged. It's the PWE Man trying to keep us down. It's a conspiracy! :rolleyes:

    It's actually not...but we all know some people will cling to their version of reality as long as reality refuses to conform to their own personal version of "how it ought to be."
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    The more purchasable things Cryptic releases in a short period of time the more the Exchange rate goes up. Why? Because people want to buy the items being sold; and the players buying Zen to sell to the grinders realize they have grinders over a barrel.

    And in case people really suck at math, the difference between 135 and 150 Exchange rate is around 6 Zen a day - or 6 whole cents. That is what people are all antsy about around here: a shift in cost that means you lose 6 cents a day until it goes back down. Wow! 6 whole cents. :)

    So let us cover some basic economics. When there is a big demand for Dilithium the price drops - the Dilithium grinders are in control then. Where there is a big demand for Zen the price goes up - the Zen buyers are in control then. As Cryptic has not done a new Fleet Holding in months, and as many people are through the various Reputations, there is no big demand for Dilithium right now, and that has been driving the market up over the last couple of months.

    And all of the above is not even taking into account how much easier it is to get Dilithium now. Experienced players are earning their 8k limit in around 30 minutes when getting to the limit used to take 1-2+ hours. With Mining Claims, Contraband, and people doing ESTFs in under 5 minutes now there is just too much Dilithium out there, and that makes the price go up.

    When Cryptic starts adding more Fleet expansions, and Embassies - probably the next one will be in the Delta Quadrant - or even a new Dilithium Crafting system then you will see the Exchange prices go back down. But as long as there is no immediate demand for Dilithum the Zen sellers will have the upper hand.

    The problem with this logic, is think of it in the perspective of dilithium seller's.

    6 zen per day x 3 f2p character's=18zen per day loss.
    126 zen loss in 1 week.
    540 zen loss in 1 month.

    Get the picture?

    Now imagine how much 6 character's would lose!

    36 per day.
    252 per week.
    1080 per month.

    The current market listing, as it stands right now, is benefitting seller's of zen, more than it is buyer's.

    Either way, Cryptic would always prefer people buy zen, no matter what, and that isn't bad because income, is something everybody needs.

    I will agree Cryptic has their way, of influencing the exchange with releases of new things, but like many have pointed out, they do not actually go in and manipulate the market directly, because if they did and were caught, it could spell serious lawsuit.
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  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Betteridge's Law of Headlines.

    If Cryptic wanted to fix the Dilithium exchange, even loosely, they would have done so when the game first went f2p and Dilithium was next to worthless because there was very little to actually spend Dilithium on in-game except for the exchange of Zen.

    And if that was the case (and it was for a very long time as Cryptic was still developing various content for players to spend dilithium on), then Cryptic would have just as easily gone in and fixed the market to make the rate extremely cheap. The less dilithium per zen = more zen needed to be bought to acquire whatever people want in the c-store. Meaning, more profit for Cryptic.

    If Cryptic fixes the exchange, they would have done so at the beginning. But they didn't. At the beginning the price of Dilithium per Zen was extremely high because people had a lot dilithium after the conversion. But there was nothing to spend Dilithium on. No starbases, no special dilithium store things (we had the transwarp thing, that was it). So why was the conversion rate so high?

    Because Zen was valuable. Dilithium was not. If people were going to trade their Zen for what was a useless currency (at the time), they were going to want a lot of it.

    Cryptic could have fixed it. They didn't. They let the market freely decide. Do you really think they'll pay someone to stay at the studio 24/7 whose only job is to artificially manipulate the market? As cheap as they are? The idea is laughable.

    They might have 24/7 Net Ops there to make sure nothing goes catastrophically wrong -- but even then I'm sure they just have a program running to remotely message them if there's a massive problem, like most developers do.

    This isn't the days of EverQuest where there is 24/7 Customer Support, let alone the much higher paid Developers. Most of which work on a salary. Why are any of them going to volunteer to work any longer than they have to?

    They don't even have 24/7 GM Support. There's absolutely no logic or reason to hire one person on either an hourly or salary basis to sit in front of one computer at Cryptic Studios whose job it is is to artificially fix the Dilithium Exchange and make it look natural enough given the laws of supply and demand as to not arouse suspicion.

    Even if this fell under PWE's arena, they're even cheaper than Cryptic is. We don't even have an exclusive Community Manager. They have Trevor managing more than one community for their games. If they're too cheap to give each game a single community manager, what makes anyone think they're going to be willing to shell out the payroll for someone to be staffed 24/7 in Redwood City to artificially fix the Dilithium exchange?
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  • nobletnoblet Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Here's the thing:

    The kind of ppl who sells zen for dilithium would have to purchase more zen for the amount of dilithium they needed, if exchange rate is lower. It is always easier to make ppl already willing to buy zen to buy a little more, then it is to make ppl who aren't willing to buy zen to buy some.
  • voporakvoporak Member Posts: 5,621 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    The rate is only manipulated in that new c-store/lockbox/dilithium sinks can swing it. After the CP conversion in S6, it fell fairly quickly and dropped to an all time low of something in the range of 80:1 around LoR iirc. It's been very slowly rising since then.
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  • kjwashingtonkjwashington Member Posts: 2,529 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I would like to say that I've seen it as low as 80-something at one point, for one zen.
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  • bobbydazlersbobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,535 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    there are many things that can effect the exchange rate, I have seen the rate go as low as 95to1.

    its all to do with supply and demand, if the demand is high and the supply is low the exchange rate will drop closer to the 50to1 rate, if demand is low but the supply is greater the rate will rise as it has lately, the only thing that is keeping the rate as low as it is now is the refine cap.

    at the moment we have had two bonus dilithium weekends, there was a noticeable change after the first weekend and there has been another change with this last one.
    I dare say as the dilithium weekends are going to continue there will be a rise after each one, we can only hope that the rate drops slightly between each dilithium weekend so it will not change too much.

    if this is the kind of rise we get from a dilithium weekend can you imagine what would happen to the exchange rate if they permanently increased the refine cap that everyone is always asking for, the exchange rate would soon hit its cap of 500to1 or at least get very close in a very short time I can forsee.

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  • riccardo171riccardo171 Member Posts: 1,802 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    artemisa0k wrote: »
    Technically they do manipulate the market as evidenced by the exchange rate jump essentially every time they release a new box (with decent items) or a ship, sales also tend to cause a lesser jump depending on the item's.

    Might just be me but it seems sales and new item's seem to be released typically when the rate hits around 124 dilithium to 1 zen as well.

    No, you're just some [REDACTED] who can't understand the basics of economy.
    If everyone wants a Tempest and has dilithium to sell, the massive demand in a small window of time make ZEN sellers rise their prices. When the hype will stop, rates will get lower. Don't blame Cryptic for manipulation for your lack of knowledge.
  • bejaymacbejaymac Member Posts: 448 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Imagine complaining about the exchange rate being 150:1, I have log entries from 2 years ago that show it at 325:1 and 355:1, Dilithium sellers have had it good since Starbases were released.
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    There was no new holding in S9, thus there is too much dilithium in the system, therefore no one buys zen so the zen supply drops and the exchange rate goes up.
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  • captainrevo1captainrevo1 Member Posts: 3,948 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I see these threads no matters the price.

    If the rate is low then people have to buy tons of zen to fill up those dilithium sinks.

    If the rate is high then people are more likely to play longer to grind, or buy zen as it's easier.

    They get a benefit either way. While they may have identified an optimum rate they would like it to be they dont manipulate it in an underhanded way. It's player driven in all the listings are listed by the player.

    They will release content, sinks, c-store items, events etc knowing they will have an affect. On that level they can push the piece one way or the other by doing things they know will shift the rate so if that's is your definition of fixed then yes, but they don't cheat. You get to see everything coming and patterns emerge if you pay attention.
  • mjarbarmjarbar Member Posts: 2,084 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    While we are talking about the exchange, a matter came up at one of my fleets meetings where it was wished that because everyone had a high amount of fleet marks, and no sink to put them in, the dill exchange would be adapted so that people could exchange marks for dill or zen.

    What I would like to ask are a couple of things:
    1. What would the effect be on zen and dill prices?
    2. Would this be a good idea?

    Your thoughts...
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  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    mjarbar wrote: »
    While we are talking about the exchange, a matter came up at one of my fleets meetings where it was wished that because everyone had a high amount of fleet marks, and no sink to put them in, the dill exchange would be adapted so that people could exchange marks for dill or zen.

    What I would like to ask are a couple of things:
    1. What would the effect be on zen and dill prices?
    2. Would this be a good idea?

    Your thoughts...

    I think fleet meetings are a waste of your time and brain energy.

    This is coming from a fleet leadership figure.
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  • mjarbarmjarbar Member Posts: 2,084 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    iconians wrote: »
    I think fleet meetings are a waste of your time and brain energy.

    This is coming from a fleet leadership figure.

    Actually it came from me and our fleets resident lore master, the fleet leader was going on about DOffing at the time! :)

    However this problem has also been raised several times here on the forums, that people have too much in the way of fleet marks but nothing to put them into which in the end causes some fleets to break up or find other drastic measures to get rid of them all the while complaining that they are forever short of either dill, zen or both.

    Others on the forums have also complained about the fact that another holding is just another grind and no fun!

    I personally have a fair bit of dill but not enough zen or fleet marks, some of my fleet mates have too much marks but not enough dill - you get the picture, so an answer to this would be a three way exchange that would allow those who wanted a way to get what they want.

    As for fleet meetings being a waste of time - nah, have you seen a room of cats all partying! :D
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