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Problem Zero

ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
One of the root problems with STO is that the game's map of the galaxy is just too small. This drives many of the other big problems in STO, such as the lack of faction-controlled space with diplomacy and combat between the factions, which drives the absence of *tension* in the game, or sector space too small which must be overcome for sufficient territory control PVP, and so on, even things like unbalanced travel times are a result of this. Its a Problem Zero that must be resolved before the rest of it can be addressed.

Cryptic really really needs to find a way to integrate STO with the map of the explored galaxy. From http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:The_Explored_Galaxy.jpg and especially the discussion there:
The Federation star chart of "The Explored Galaxy" was first seen in 2293, in Captain Kirk's quarters aboard the USS Enterprise-A. (Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country)

The chart was also seen frequently in the 24th century in various locations. In 2364, the chart was displayed at Starfleet Headquarters in the room where Dexter Remmick, possessed by neural parasites, was killed after sending a homing beacon. (TNG: "Conspiracy") In 2365, the chart was seen in the court room on Starbase 173 (TNG: "The Measure Of A Man") and the tactical room aboard the Enterprise-D, close to another map that depicted the whole Milky Way Galaxy. (TNG: "The Emissary") In 2367, the chart was seen in the tactical laboratory of Enterprise-D. (TNG: "The Mind's Eye") In 2368, in the ship's engineering laboratory. (TNG: "The Game") In 2369 and 2370, the chart was seen in the classroom aboard Deep Space 9, featuring the heading "The Explored Galaxy". (DS9: "In the Hands of the Prophets", "Cardassians")

I'm not saying the artwork should be used for the galaxy map, rather that the layout of the galaxy should be used as a starting point for determing scale, travel time and mechanics (warp vs transwarp vs gateways), faction-controlled space, and so forth, using the canon map as the cornerstone referene which everything else is built upon.
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Comments

  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I agree, it is too small. But then again, the playable space in STO is a drop in the bucket of the entire galaxy.

    Here is a map of the Milky Way that I made for an STO Exploration proposal a few years ago. And the area we play STO in is within that tiny, tiny circle around Earth (50 Light Years across). While the Blue Area is the area the Federation explored in the TNG era.

    So in means of the entire Galaxy, it's really been untouched. And tons of potential that Cryptic isn't capitalizing on. :(
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    So in means of the entire Galaxy, it's really been untouched. And tons of potential that Cryptic isn't capitalizing on. :(
    Somewhat complicated concept. Cryptic does its own thing and Trek fans start complaining about how Cryptic does not follow the IP. Cryptic follows the IP and fans say they are not capitalizing on all the empty space. :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • jeffel82jeffel82 Member Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    So essentially what you're saying is that everything in sector space should be spaced farther apart?

    Should travel times be made slower as well?

    IMO, this is all rather arbitrary...
    You're right. The work here is very important.
    tacofangs wrote: »
    ...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
  • philipclaybergphilipclayberg Member Posts: 1,680
    edited May 2014
    Whew... The Milky Way is 2000 times the width of that little circle around Sol. Talk about humbling. Like being a grain of sand on the biggest beach you could imagine and then some.
  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    Somewhat complicated concept. Cryptic does its own thing and Trek fans start complaining about how Cryptic does not follow the IP. Cryptic follows the IP and fans say they are not capitalizing on all the empty space. :)

    You make it out to be a Catch-22, when it's just Cryptic needing to be true to Star Trek than making new rules as they go.
    jeffel82 wrote: »
    So essentially what you're saying is that everything in sector space should be spaced farther apart?

    Should travel times be made slower as well?

    IMO, this is all rather arbitrary...

    From what I gather what Ursus's saying, it's that we are a small fish in a big pond, and we don't have the means to stretch our legs and make the most of Transwarp and Slipstream tech. Sector Space and the speeds its fine, just that we need to get out of the box that Cryptic put us in.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    You make it out to be a Catch-22, when it's just Cryptic needing to be true to Star Trek than making new rules as they go.
    I believe it is a Catch-22. Star Trek fans come to the game expecting to deal with Star Trek species. Would the whole Iconian plot be as interesting if it were the Ra'bonize species behind it all? Would the Pajumba species have more impact if they had invaded Vega instead of the Borg? Fans want to deal with iconic Trek foes, IMO. The more you put it homebrew the less attached the fans are too it - and the more vocal they are to its dislike.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    jeffel82 wrote: »
    So essentially what you're saying is that everything in sector space should be spaced farther apart?

    Should travel times be made slower as well?

    IMO, this is all rather arbitrary...

    Travel times can be dealt with via multiple modes of travel. EG, warp travel within a sector can be (relatively) slow if you have transwarp drives that let you (instantly) go to any system within the sector and transwarp hubs that let you (instantly) travel to any other sector. The assets are already here, but the map doesnt support it.
  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    I believe it is a Catch-22. Star Trek fans come to the game expecting to deal with Star Trek species. Would the whole Iconian plot be as interesting if it were the Ra'bonize species behind it all? Would the Pajumba species have more impact if they had invaded Vega instead of the Borg? Fans want to deal with iconic Trek foes, IMO. The more you put it homebrew the less attached the fans are too it - and the more vocal they are to its dislike.

    In that respect, I agree. But I also disagree that if Cryptic handles the story correctly with a new race, they can pull it off.

    For instance, the Fen Domar. They were mentioned by Future Janeway as a powerful enemy that lies somewhere between Earth and the Beta/Delta border. If we expanded STO into that area, Cryptic could ramp up the danger season by season until a climax where we face off with their main fleet. And they can do the same with any fictional race they create. It's a matter of conveying that danger storywise and gameplaywise. As long as they stay true to Star Trek ideals.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    In that respect, I agree. But I also disagree that if Cryptic handles the story correctly with a new race, they can pull it off.

    For instance, the Fen Domar. They were mentioned by Future Janeway as a powerful enemy that lies somewhere between Earth and the Beta/Delta border. If we expanded STO into that area, Cryptic could ramp up the danger season by season until a climax where we face off with their main fleet. And they can do the same with any fictional race they create. It's a matter of conveying that danger storywise and gameplaywise. As long as they stay true to Star Trek ideals.
    I believe they can make an interesting story, as they did with the Deferi and the Preservers. I just do not think the fans will embrace a major unknown "empire" as it heartily where then are so many canon empires to deal with.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    As far as the OP, the war is over. There will never be Territory Control PvP in the game because there is no purpose to it. The Feds and KDF are buds now. They do not need to fight over planets - and thus there is no tension to be had in space.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    As far as the OP, the war is over. There will never be Territory Control PvP in the game because there is no purpose to it. The Feds and KDF are buds now. They do not need to fight over planets - and thus there is no tension to be had in space.
    You seem awfully confident--never is a really long time. And while the main conflict is finished in the SP campaign, it is still going strong in the persistent universe. I would encourage you to open your PVE window and queue up to defend Starbase 24, if you played this game anymore.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    You seem awfully confident--never is a really long time. And while the main conflict is finished in the SP campaign, it is still going strong in the persistent universe. I would encourage you to open your PVE window and queue up to defend Starbase 24, if you played this game anymore.
    The Feds and KDF are, again, allies. The direction for the future is pushing us into the Delta Quadrant for the next Expansion Pack. I do not see the KDF and Feds going back to war for several real years in the game, if ever. Any thing people are queuing up now that there is an alliance is, at best, a war game; and far more likely to simply be a Holodeck simulation rather then a real situation.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    The Feds and KDF are, again, allies.
    Tuvok says they are not allies.

    Anyway your assertions are irrelevant. I'm saying that its not really possible to have any kind of PVP area control with the current map restrictions. The current state of the KDF-Federation relations within the single-player story arc is something for you to work through, it has no relation to anything that may happen between any number of factions in the future, except that the galaxy map we have now wont support it.

    So please, no more derailing on sidebar topics
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Tuvok says they are not allies.
    The war is over and we are fighting together against common enemies. That is close enough to an alliance to me. YMMV
    Anyway your assertions are irrelevant. I'm saying that its not really possible to have any kind of PVP area control with the current map restrictions. The current state of the KDF-Federation relations within the single-player story arc is something for you to work through, it has no relation to anything that may happen between any number of factions in the future, except that the galaxy map we have now wont support it.
    My assertion is that Territory Control PvP is irrelevant at this point in time. The only wars going on are with NPCs rather then Factions. We do not need larger or smaller maps, nor do we need more tensions from map size when the Factions are no longer involved in conflict.

    PvP might get a full revamp at some point, but I do not believe we are going to see it before next year - and certainly not before the game takes us to the Delta Quadrant for new end-game play - as a Level Cap increase seems to be the most talked about purpose of the new EP.
    So please, no more derailing on sidebar topics
    I was specifically addressing the points you brought up in your Original Post. Maybe you need to reread what you wrote? :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • locutusofcactuslocutusofcactus Member Posts: 651 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I have no problem with the scale of the galactic map. Sure it's undersized but who cares? Peps don't want to spend a ton of time in sector space trying to get from place to place. If this post sounds rude or annoying, I probably have been role playing on my Ferengi character too much.
  • tekehdtekehd Member Posts: 2,032 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Whew... The Milky Way is 2000 times the width of that little circle around Sol. Talk about humbling. Like being a grain of sand on the biggest beach you could imagine and then some.

    I'll put this in perspective for you, would you want this level of spacial realism in the game, it would take you about a month and a half to reach DS9. Though I'm sure they could implement a travel while logged out system, so you can set course and then log in several weeks later when you get there.
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    I was specifically addressing the points you brought up in your Original Post. Maybe you need to reread what you wrote? :)
    I didnt say anything about the KDF war. Instead you are just trying to hijack this into talking about something that you obviously havent even given the courtesy to play through.
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    tekehd wrote: »
    I'll put this in perspective for you, would you want this level of spacial realism in the game, it would take you about a month and a half to reach DS9. Though I'm sure they could implement a travel while logged out system, so you can set course and then log in several weeks later when you get there.
    Or you could use the various transwarp mechanics. Properly structured it would take the same amount of time as now.
  • tekehdtekehd Member Posts: 2,032 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Or you could use the various transwarp mechanics. Properly structured it would take the same amount of time as now.

    Or we can just keep the maps smaller like they are and have things work more like how it's seen in the franchise, rather than littering sectors with trans-warp gates everywhere for no real needed reason other than to encompass a massive grandiose map to implement a system that hardly anyone expresses any interest in.

    Most of us play this game because it's star-trek.
  • locutusofcactuslocutusofcactus Member Posts: 651 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Or you could use the various transwarp mechanics. Properly structured it would take the same amount of time as now.

    ...so make sector space larger and give player's incentive and means to avoid it?:confused:
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    ...so make sector space larger and give player's incentive and means to avoid it?:confused:
    Pretty much. Its how you resolve the dilemma between exploration and speed. If you want to get the vibe of flying in space with star systems whizzing past your screen, or that a destination is somewhere far away, then you need to provide that kind of travel mechanic. But some people will want to go to a specific somewhere right now to do somehting and you have to accomodate them too.

    the Romulan Neutral Zone is huge, but in STO its literally a line on the galaxy map. If the map were large, it would be possible to exploit systems in the map at some future point. The point is, right now its not possible.

    And then transwarps for the people that just want to get to the other side of the map for whatever
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I didnt say anything about the KDF war. Instead you are just trying to hijack this into talking about something that you obviously havent even given the courtesy to play through.
    What the heck are you talking about? You are the one who brought up Territory Control PvP as of an example of why it should be your way - which is predicated on there being a war. I simply pointed out that there is no war any more, and thus TC PvP is a meaningless example.

    And since the game does not have Territory Control PvP, nor has it ever had it, there is no way I could have ever played through such a thing here - and neither could you. So what does your second sentence have to do with anything?

    Where you see a "problem zero" I see no problem at all. At best all I really want is seamless zoning giving space the illusion of being vast and open rather then sectored off. None of that would affect travel time or the use of various "go to" abilities.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • purplegamerpurplegamer Member Posts: 1,015 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    Somewhat complicated concept. Cryptic does its own thing and Trek fans start complaining about how Cryptic does not follow the IP. Cryptic follows the IP and fans say they are not capitalizing on all the empty space. :)

    This always seemed like an argument for stagnation. I mean, if they can't please anyone, why bother?
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    This always seemed like an argument for stagnation. I mean, if they can't please anyone, why bother?
    Because with any business you choose the path you believe will please the most people - and thus make you the most money. In this instance canon species outweighs homebrew. But no matter what some are always going to be ticked off by whichever choice was made. My point of that post is that it will get bashed on the forum no matter what. :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • jeffel82jeffel82 Member Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    the Romulan Neutral Zone is huge, but in STO its literally a line on the galaxy map. If the map were large, it would be possible to exploit systems in the map at some future point. The point is, right now its not possible.

    The Romulan Neutral Zone is probably a bad example, since the Romulan Empire no longer exists, and thus the current status of the Neutral Zone is questionable.

    However, the Federation-Klingon neutral zone is just as unclear.

    Which brings me back around to my Sector Space pet peeve, which is that IMO "deep space" (read: empty space between systems) should always be considered neutral/uncoloured, since Trek generally shows all species having pretty free travel until they arrive at an occupied system. Instead, I think it makes more sense to have a colour-coded "island" around each occupied/controlled system on the sector map. Neutral zones are denoted by being uncoloured.

    Regarding transwarp...the STO depiction always struck me as funny, considering its portrayal in the series has always been closer to what we have with Quantum Slipstream drive - travel time is still required.
    You're right. The work here is very important.
    tacofangs wrote: »
    ...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
  • donowickdonowick Member Posts: 269 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I have played mmo games that were pure pvp and had to fight over sectors of space ( battlestar Galactica online). When you first start it is okay but after a while you get tired of being picked on by higher level players that won't let you do anything. That is why I enjoy STO you can play the game and do pvp if you want. Fighting over sectors of space all the time will destroy this game IMO. ;)
  • tigerariestigeraries Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    All maps should have a notation at the top, bottom and sides that read: not to scale

    =)

    Travel time is a waste of time... you do not fight in sector space... sure you may go to a location via your ship... but if they implemented instant access to locations in your sector by a drop down menu or you can travel via ship like now... what do you think would happen?

    Fun and games does not equal spending a few minutes going from place A to place B.

    Heck they do that now with mission quests that has "transwarp" but it costs EC. Make it free and I would NEVER travel in my ship from my current location to next mission location.
  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Well if we look at STO's main problem, as maps being too small, The solution (wich is a far away) would be to start altering the engine from instanced map boxes to instance map cells.

    What I am purposing, is much like oblivion/Fallout3/NewVegas/Skyrim, where you preload all surronding sectors while you mode.

    Imagine a board of 9 cells... 3x3. You are in cell #5 wich obviously is loaded and ready.
    Now cells 1-4 and 6-9 are pre-loaded, meaning nothing, or very little is really loaded, it's just prepared. Players are obviously loaded into these cells, as well as certain stellar objects (such as nebula).

    As you move from cell #5 to cell #2,Cell #2 is fully loaded when you cross the cell-border, cells 7,8 and 9 unload fully, cell #5 is unloaded and altered into a preloaded cell instead and cell -1, -2 and -3 preload.

    This would make the impression that you don't use load times, would allow for almost endless maps (obviously this is to some degree limited by the engine and the client PC).

    Now if you move outside the established map, you would be overpowered by a huge, never ending squadron of raiders.
    This would actively discourage you from leaving into pure emptyness, and all it would take is to set a variable on the two outer cells to border map, so that the game knows that if you move past the established mission sectors.
    Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
    Let me put the rumors to rest: it's definitely still the C-Store (Cryptic Store) It just takes ZEN.
    Like Duty Officers? Support effords to gather ideas
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Wasn't it always one of dstahl's dreams to have seamless sector space?

    Considering that it hasn't happened yet, I wouldn't count on it ever happening.

    I also think it's not such a big deal. Seamless would certanly be nice, but size is irrelevant as long as there is nothing happening in there. Blowing up the maps doesn't automatically generate more content to do in it.

    I think for that we'd need an Exploration Revamp or Genesis II ...
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • thetaninethetanine Member Posts: 1,367 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    ...Genesis...

    Alien: To your planet, welcome.

    McCoy: I think that's *my* line, stranger.

    Alien: Oh, forgive. I here am new. But you are known, being McCoy from Enterprise.

    McCoy: You have me at a disadvantage, sir.

    Alien: Oh, I name not important. You seek I. Message received. Available ship stands by.

    McCoy: How much and how soon?

    Alien: How soon is now. How much is, where?

    McCoy: Somewhere in the Mutara sector.

    Alien: Oh, Mutara restricted! Take permits many; money more.

    McCoy: There aren't gonna be any damned permits! How can you get a permit to do a damned illegal thing? Look, price you name, money I got.

    Alien: Place *you* name, money *I* name, otherwise bargain, no.

    McCoy: Alright, damn it! It's Genesis! The name of the place we're going is GENESIS!

    Alien: Genesis?

    McCoy: Yes, Genesis! How can you be deaf with ears like that?

    Alien: Genesis allowed is not! Is planet forbidden!
    STAR TREK
    lD8xc9e.png
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