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Introducing fleet command (commanding more than one ship in Game) is a bad idea

willamsheridanwillamsheridan Member Posts: 1,189 Arc User
There were rumors that we would get the ability to go into battle with more than just one ship but what sounds nice at first could really be a bad idea.

Why?

Well here is why:

Totally overpowering "money players". Some players level up and when they REach Vice Admiral they buy a c-store ship and Later a Fleet ship maybe. And i assume thay just eqip WEapons and consoles on the ship they are flying a and maybe one other.

Other players seem to live online and buy every ship there is. Nothing wrong with that per se, eveyone can spend their money as the want to (but i think its a waste of money to have so many ships, full equiped, if you can still only fly one yourself. Choose a career and choose the matching ships. Tac=Escort and so on)

So while some of the money saving players could only come up with at most 3 Tier 5 ships the money spending Player yould lead a fleet of more than 5 fully euipped c-store or fleet ships into battle.

He would be far, far stronger than f2p players who also would have to by more equipment to make ther ships useful.
Post edited by willamsheridan on
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Comments

  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Virtually all of the good equipment comes from the Reputation Systems so from a gear standpoint everyone is equal - everyone has to grind the same amount of time to get T5 Rep Systems and unlock the best gear.

    Beyond that, the distinction is meaningless less for PvE. The AI does not offer any type of challenge. I am now seeing people doing ESTFs in T3-4 chips rather then T5.5 because of the simplicity of them.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • omegaphallicomegaphallic Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I'm going to disagree with the OP as well. If any game play like that was pvp the op would have a point, but specially designed pve missions would function fine.
  • kaarruukaarruu Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I also think this is a bad idea, but for different reasons than the OP.

    Consider, if you will, how carrier pets behave. They're dumb as rocks: getting caught in warpcore explosions, derping around the map, lagging behind... ugh.

    Do you really want to see your glorious fleet flying like a bunch of drunken Pakleds and spouting Super Mario stars as they go?
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    kaarruu wrote: »
    I also think this is a bad idea, but for different reasons than the OP.

    Consider, if you will, how carrier pets behave. They're dumb as rocks: getting caught in warpcore explosions, derping around the map, lagging behind... ugh.

    Do you really want to see your glorious fleet flying like a bunch of drunken Pakleds and spouting Super Mario stars as they go?
    Most Level 50s already have access to Fleet Support - and Sci has access to Photonic Fleet as well. Changing Fleet Support to use your own Boffs in older ships does not seem like it would be any more of a problem then using random ships.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,967 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I think that it is a horrible idea that needs to be burned down. And I'm dead serious.

    If I had to pick a single worst idea in the history of STO, commanding entire fleets would be that one.
    Not only because it further weakens the feel of basic Trek, but look at it this way - currently the space combat is arguably the best part of STO. Now take a look at your away team on ground. Notice their behavior, their AI, the issues with pathfinding and just how generally dumb they behave. Then take a look at carrier pet AI. Do we really need to mess up space that badly? Do we really want to make space combat revolve around broken and weak mechanics because someone has a fetish for commanding entire fleets? Because mark my words, if this becomes requirement - space combat in STO will go to hell.
    HQroeLu.jpg
  • revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I agree with the op, but for completely different reasons.
    As a Star Trek Game center of the action should be one ship and it's crew, not fleets. So it should focus on that.
  • johngazmanjohngazman Member Posts: 2,826 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I'm an Admiral, aren't I? Should I not be commanding a fleet?

    I like this idea. It has merit. It would be a great excuse to have more than one build that simply gets passed around when you change ships.
    You're just a machine. And machines can be broken.
    StarTrekFirstContactBorgBattleonetumblr_lln3v6QoT31qzrtqe.gif
  • tickletopstickletops Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    Most Level 50s already have access to Fleet Support - and Sci has access to Photonic Fleet as well. Changing Fleet Support to use your own Boffs in older ships does not seem like it would be any more of a problem then using random ships.
    johngazman wrote: »
    I'm an Admiral, aren't I? Should I not be commanding a fleet?

    I like this idea. It has merit. It would be a great excuse to have more than one build that simply gets passed around when you change ships.

    Both solid points.

    The mechanics for commanding a fleet already exist (photonic/carrier pets), as does the rank (admiral).

    personally i doubt i can handle the headache of outfitting ALL of my ships, currently i share modules between them. Though this is maybe <hy i t miught be a good idea, to force us to rep grind modules even more?
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Imagine if the Undine Space Battlezone allowed you to run with two additional ships. Imagine new content allowing for that - rather than showing up in an ISE with 5 players and their 10 subordinate ships. Imagine if neither of the ships could have a hangar. Imagine if only specific ships could be equipped - ie not ships you necessarily have. Imagine if they only had the standard abilities that a NPC ship might have so one would not upgrade them with standard player gear even if upgrades were available. Imagine if they touched up the pet AI and these two ships followed that.

    Imagine the many issues that folks will raise about the idea and imagine if there are any possible solutions that could be offered up to those issues...

    ...rather than just writing it off.

    Oh, no doubt - if none of the issues would be addressed - most certainly, kill the idea with fire!
  • johngazmanjohngazman Member Posts: 2,826 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Much as I like the idea, however, I do see some possible problems to overcome. For example, ship slots. Should boff-commanders have their own single ship slot, or should they command an exisiting ship from your own roster?

    Also, pets. My main has a Vesta, Recluse, Jem'Hadar Dreadnought and an Atrox. Between them that's seven hangar slots, so for example if you could have the equivalent of an away team in space (player plus four boffs) and fighters in every hangar (six per hangar, times seven) then a single player could theoretically have forty-two fighters on the field at any given time, if not more if you have an additional boff with two more hangar bays.

    Then that's compounded by deciding whether or not Boff-commanders come into PvE queues. So a team of five, with four AI ships each = fighter spam. Five players, with four boffs each using the same ships as I mentioned could easily hit something like two hundred and ten fighter pets. Imagine having two hundred Elite Scorpions.

    So there's the issue of power creep to consider.
    You're just a machine. And machines can be broken.
    StarTrekFirstContactBorgBattleonetumblr_lln3v6QoT31qzrtqe.gif
  • cptjhuntercptjhunter Member Posts: 2,288 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I would assume the OP is referring to PVP.As far as the game mechanics go, I would assume the AI ships will most likely be as derpy as your boffs are on ground.
  • tickletopstickletops Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    cptjhunter wrote: »
    I would assume the OP is referring to PVP.As far as the game mechanics go, I would assume the AI ships will most likely be as derpy as your boffs are on ground.

    this raises another question, we already have Doffs and Boffs, will we now need Fleet officers? (Foffs):eek:
  • shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,967 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    johngazman wrote: »
    I'm an Admiral, aren't I? Should I not be commanding a fleet?

    I like this idea. It has merit. It would be a great excuse to have more than one build that simply gets passed around when you change ships.

    That's just the thing - all of us being Admirals is tremenduously stupid in the first place.
    But more importantly, I can't see this happeining without completely breaking the game for many reasons, some of them I mentioned, some of which you mentioned in your second reply (after this one I'm quoting).
    Imagine if the Undine Space Battlezone allowed you to run with two additional ships. Imagine new content allowing for that - rather than showing up in an ISE with 5 players and their 10 subordinate ships. Imagine if neither of the ships could have a hangar. Imagine if only specific ships could be equipped - ie not ships you necessarily have. Imagine if they only had the standard abilities that a NPC ship might have so one would not upgrade them with standard player gear even if upgrades were available. Imagine if they touched up the pet AI and these two ships followed that.

    Imagine the many issues that folks will raise about the idea and imagine if there are any possible solutions that could be offered up to those issues...

    ...rather than just writing it off.

    Oh, no doubt - if none of the issues would be addressed - most certainly, kill the idea with fire!

    IF? IF? IF? :P
    HQroeLu.jpg
  • qjuniorqjunior Member Posts: 2,023 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    If such a system is ever implemented, I doubt that we could control the loadout of the AI controlled ships. I imagine it would be more like slotting an unlocked ship with a Boff and each ship would have a certain build when it comes to weaponry and abilities.

    They could even create different rarity levels for those ships. There could also be a point system in which all ships would take up a certain amount of points. That would prevent people from flying around with 6 Scimitars.

    The pet spam is a valid concern too. There would need to be some kind of limiting factor, or otherwise the lag (not to mention the complete power creep madness) would be catastrophic otherwise.
  • johngazmanjohngazman Member Posts: 2,826 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    shpoks wrote: »
    That's just the thing - all of us being Admirals is tremenduously stupid in the first place.
    But more importantly, I can't see this happeining without completely breaking the game for many reasons, some of them I mentioned, some of which you mentioned in your second reply (after this one I'm quoting).

    Well, as I say, kinks in the road. It's not something to dismiss out of hand, since it has plenty of potential. The main issue to consider is the potential to render the game challenge-less.

    And yes, all being Admirals is silly. But it's here now and it's probably not going away.
    qjunior wrote: »
    They could even create different rarity levels for those ships.

    Boff ships in lockboxes confirmed.
    You're just a machine. And machines can be broken.
    StarTrekFirstContactBorgBattleonetumblr_lln3v6QoT31qzrtqe.gif
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    shpoks wrote: »
    IF? IF? IF? :P

    Hey, I give them a 1% proc chance of it not all going horribly wrong. ;)
  • jslynjslyn Member Posts: 1,791 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    johngazman wrote: »
    Then that's compounded by deciding whether or not Boff-commanders come into PvE queues. So a team of five, with four AI ships each = fighter spam. Five players, with four boffs each using the same ships as I mentioned could easily hit something like two hundred and ten fighter pets. Imagine having two hundred Elite Scorpions..




    I doubt that is the way that it would go. It would probably be more like the way that Ground is now. That is to say there would be a cap of five characters (Players and BOffs) in the group. Every player added is one slot taken up. At most you would have five carriers launching fighters, but you can do that now.
  • johngazmanjohngazman Member Posts: 2,826 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    jslyn wrote: »
    I doubt that is the way that it would go. It would probably be more like the way that Ground is now. That is to say there would be a cap of five characters (Players and BOffs) in the group. Every player added is one slot taken up. At most you would have five carriers launching fighters, but you can do that now.

    True. But then you have to ask that if you're going to continue to operate in the manner that we do now, there's actually no point to introducing this mechanic.

    I also think that not introducing this mechanic with customisable Boff ships is foolish. We outfit our boffs ground gear, so we'd obviously want to outfit our Boff's ships in the same manner.
    You're just a machine. And machines can be broken.
    StarTrekFirstContactBorgBattleonetumblr_lln3v6QoT31qzrtqe.gif
  • spaceeagle20spaceeagle20 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    This sounds like a way to encourage us to buy c-store 3-pack ships whose consoles, as you know, are gimmicky in PvE so i guess most players end up buying one and saving 2500 zen and filling it with rep consoles but what if you can give the other 2 to 2 of your boffs?
    P58WJe7.jpg


  • jellico1jellico1 Member Posts: 2,719
    edited May 2014
    If a player can bring 2 other ships from there inventory into a match it would add to the experence if the match generated more quality enemys to face and if the matchs were slightly reworked a little as well

    Ships would have to be pulled from the players ship inventory...money for cryptic

    ships BOs and DO's ( 5)+ (5) would have to be pulled from the players roster...money for cryptic

    Ships equipment would have to be installed like the players ship...more grinding....more money for cryptic

    Spawn points in matchs would need to be spread out a lot...work for cryptic this is super important players are to close together when a match starts spread the players out !

    Ai adjusted to add more npc's especially at start points....work for cryptic

    Npc's adjusted...most need adjusting anyway and buffed as well

    If handled well it would be a big bonus to the game...........If handled well

    Cryptic must Do
    Cut down on the animatons from weapons Fire.....Too many animations come from a single ship that adds to lag for some players.....adding more ships adds more lag so this must be done especially to things like Torp spread 3 and CSV

    This would be the biggest problem i see to the entire thing
    Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
    Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
    Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng

    JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
  • willamsheridanwillamsheridan Member Posts: 1,189 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    THe best gear comes from Reputation systems (fleet ot otherwise) that is right but there is a difference if you are someone who does have too much money to spend and go into Battle with, let´say, one Fleet Assault Cruiser, One C-Store REgent Assault Cruiser, one Support Cruiser, One Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser and one Avenger, all of them equiped with Fleet/reputation weapons and consoles or if you are a f2p player who has only the corrent ship equiped with exchange weapons or Reputation weapons/consoles. you maybe have a fleet ship or a c-store Ship. Maybe both but yoo would go into battle with the Tier 5 free Sovereign, the c-store Assault Cruiser and aFleet Assault Cruiser, the Tier 4 Galaxy and the Tier 3 Cheyenne. All of them would need to be outfittet with expensive Weapons, consoles and Shields/impulse drive.

    Its one thing to fly one ship and equip it with the best equipment ot to have to equip 5 (just a number, could also be 2,4 or 10) ships. THat is far more expensive.

    I know that science ships have a Photonic fleet ability but thats just like the fleet support or the Nimbus Distress Call. Some NPC ships. I am talking about the ships you own. I have one Tier 5 c-store Ship and one Fleet ship. A friend of mine has every federation ship plus several Lobi and Lock-Box huips. I just can´t afford that. But if he can use all of his ships in a Fleet and i just my 2 and the free ships (most of them have no equipment on and i dont have the Tier 1 and 2 Ships) There is just no Way i could win. Imagine a 10000 Hull Centaur vs. a 42000 Hull Odyssey.


    If it was just a Randomly appearing NPC fleet that would stay with you like we had in the new Feat. episonde with the Lleitet, Enterprise and Bortasqu i think thets a great idea.

    Depending on your Skills, Carrer and Rank you get more and different ships which do not disappear after a few seconds. That would be a good idea because everone has an equal chance for a good fleet.
  • spaceeagle20spaceeagle20 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    jellico1 wrote: »
    If a player can bring 2 other ships from there inventory into a match it would add to the experence if the match generated more quality enemys to face and if the matchs were slightly reworked a little as well

    Ships would have to be pulled from the players ship inventory...money for cryptic

    ships BOs and DO's ( 5)+ (5) would have to be pulled from the players roster...money for cryptic

    Ships equipment would have to be installed like the players ship...more grinding....more money for cryptic

    Spawn points in matchs would need to be spread out a lot...work for cryptic this is super important players are to close together when a match starts spread the players out !

    Ai adjusted to add more npc's especially at start points....work for cryptic

    Npc's adjusted...most need adjusting anyway and buffed as well

    If handled well it would be a big bonus to the game...........If handled well

    Cryptic must Do
    Cut down on the animatons from weapons Fire.....Too many animations come from a single ship that adds to lag for some players.....adding more ships adds more lag so this must be done especially to things like Torp spread 3 and CSV

    This would be the biggest problem i see to the entire thing

    Yep... it's the lag that I fear, not the buffed NPCs
    P58WJe7.jpg


  • capnmanxcapnmanx Member Posts: 1,452 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I would never use such a system even if Cryptic did introduce it. I have to work too hard at trying to ignore the fact that the game made my characters Admirals as it is.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Yep... it's the lag that I fear, not the buffed NPCs
    I am working under some basic assumptions here - based on various things I have heard and read.

    My belief is that the new Expansion Pack will be a Level Cap increase and set full of missions in the Delta Quadrant. Rather then a ship Tier increase - thus forcing us to buy all new ships - I believe we will see ships get new Admiral abilities based on our Rank. One such ability will be to control of Fleet of ships made up of Boffs. I also believe that new Content will take that increased volume into account. So instead of seeing 20-player events full of ships, and Photonic Fleets, etc we will see content designed for 5 players having Fleet control for a total of around 25 ships in the zone - thus roughly equivalent to what we already have so it should not cause any more lag then what we already experience.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,557 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    The point of commanding a fleet is to get use out of your other ships that you haven't played for months or years. It is just a huge waste getting a C-Store ship or Lockbox ship and not use it anymore.
  • jslynjslyn Member Posts: 1,791 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    johngazman wrote: »
    True. But then you have to ask that if you're going to continue to operate in the manner that we do now, there's actually no point to introducing this mechanic.

    I also think that not introducing this mechanic with customisable Boff ships is foolish. We outfit our boffs ground gear, so we'd obviously want to outfit our Boff's ships in the same manner.



    Oh, they will likely be customizable. That is what lets Cryptic sell more C-Store Ships and serves as an EC and Dilithium sink. And possibly as a BOff sink, if you need to fill in those ship's crews as well.

    I wonder, though, if once you assign a Bridge Officer as Captain of their own ship, if will you not be able to use that character any longer. Hm.
  • puttenhamputtenham Member Posts: 1,052 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    i dont agree with ships and equipment being the reason this is a bad idea. I kind of feel it cheapens the experience.

    I don't remember any of the captains or ships in any of the shows running around the quadrants with their "POSSE". it just seems silly.

    I think the way to do it would be to have a set amount of ships at the ready for a distress call. they show up and help. but have the distress call cooldown super super long, like once a day or something.

    but I do say no to commanding a fleet at all times..
  • edgecrysgeredgecrysger Member Posts: 2,740 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I cant imagine the thousands of problems this will carry. I dont think cryptic have the skills to make this work. If they cant even fix some bugs that are really important and are game-breakers (like the loadout system). Dont ask em to do this, or we will playing with masks. I will afraid of my screen to blow up in pieces lol.
  • aloishammeraloishammer Member Posts: 3,294 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Oh, no doubt - if none of the issues would be addressed - most certainly, kill the idea with fire!

    Given the parent company and their history, I'm comfortable with the idea that many of the issues wouldn't be addressed at all, and it's about 50/50 whether the ones that were addressed at all would be addressed in any effective way.

    And that's assuming the idea's not ludicrous based solely on not one series that defined Star Trek ever being called "Star Trek: [insert heroic descriptor] Fleet." Deep Space 9 came closest, and that was still basically "The crew of the Defiant, but mostly on-base rather than shipboard."

    Kill this one with fire, says I.
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    puttenham wrote: »
    I don't remember any of the captains or ships in any of the shows running around the quadrants with their "POSSE". it just seems silly.

    Picard in First Contact. Admiral Ross in DS9. Sisko in DS9. Owen Paris in Voyager. Battle Group Omega in Nemesis.

    There's plenty of precedent in the shows for small fleets and battle groups.
    I think the way to do it would be to have a set amount of ships at the ready for a distress call. they show up and help. but have the distress call cooldown super super long, like once a day or something.

    but I do say no to commanding a fleet at all times..

    I think it is a good option for those who want to use it. If you want to roleplay a Captain, you can simply justify it as temporarily 'taking command of the fleet' like Picard, or if you want to roleplay an Admiral, you can say it's your permanent battle group.
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