A good part of STO is how almost everything ingame has a counter. Subnuke and sci team, grav well and APO or EM, and so on.
As you can guess from the title this idea is create a wide counter to cloaks for not just Starfleet but everyone. With PVP now being somewhat of a free for all I think all factions could use this tech.
Note the ideas is pretty weak right now. The reason why I'm putting it up here to see how other players could make it better.
Now to the ideas. I have two versions. One is kind of a sensor net type power That some (maybe all) ships would have. The simplest way of saying what it is would be to call it a mix of Science Captains' sensor scan power and the Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit's Tachyon Detection Grid. Based on the ship type it would get one of 3 versions of the power. Escorts getting rank 1 and Science Ships getting rank 3 (Note this part I'm willing to change. I think maybe cruisers should get rank 3 but not 100% sure about it.)
The way this power would work is Ship A & Ship B is fighting Ship C & Ship D. C and D are cloaking and launching attack against A & B. A uses sensor net and gets a bonus to steathsight, he also gives B a bonus to his steathsight and his own sensor net power (Again, not 100% sure how this would work. The basic idea I had was that the power would work like a chain reaction. One ship would boost the steathsight of 4 and those four would boost the steathboost of 4 more ships each and so on. Each ship would need to remember to use the power in order to keep the chain going.) B uses sensor net, spots the C and D. Boom! And everyone gets cake.
Note, idea A needs work. Compared to B it is a more active power. Also helps show off one of the little mottoes some players use, "Teamwork is OP. Plz nerf". For the lone wolf types I was think about a new type of pet that would work the same as players.
Idea B is less wordy. Scanner mode. You move all and I mean all power from weapons to Aux and you gain a boost steathsight roughly as strong as an unboosted cloak. IE players would need to spec into cloak if they thought they would be fighting a scanner. There could maybe be a B'rel styled ship that would fire torps and mines while in scanner mode. Carriers could turn on scanner mode and use their pets to lay the hurt on people.
Note, idea B was thankful small. I don't think of myself as a writer so typing out these large things is weird for me. I kind of dislike B cause I feel it locks the player that uses it into a healer role and I don't think that is right. It is also the more simple of the two ideas. Easy to counter as well I think. Once you spot the "spotter" so to speak you now the place you need to avoid.
As I said at the start of this the ideas that I had are pretty heavily WIPs. The numbers and most of the ideas could be reworked by someone that better knows the numbers behind the game.
If you some how read everything I said thanks for reading. If you have any questions or anything would like to add to the idea please type something up.
You can already get a counter to cloak with several skills - Charged Particle Burst, a Grav Well with investment into Grav Gens, EPtA, etc. I'm not really sure that we need another.
...is a thread I believe should be a sticky. There are a bunch of other threads discussing more aspects (things tend to happen like that because things are not stickied)...but page #5 of that has the formula for Stealth Detection/Perception.
...is a thread I believe should be a sticky. There are a bunch of other threads discussing more aspects (things tend to happen like that because things are not stickied)...but page #5 of that has the formula for Stealth Detection/Perception.
You may want to link to the post in question directly - my forum settings make that thread have only 2 pages.
Awesome resource, though all the hence & forth around bugs can make it confusing.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
well, I am not sure exactly what is going on with the differences in SDR depending upon what order you equip consoles and deflector. Nonetheless, here is a table showing the results of my testing on this: SDR Equipping Variance Table. My testing shows you will get the highest bonus from the deflector by equipping it last (after all sensor consoles), assuming you want to use all of your sensor consoles.
I was also able to come up with a formula for a Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI which matches up with the highest bonus line in the table, and I believe may be along the same lines as your conclusion above Virusdancer. My formula is as follows:
Additional SDR from Steatlhsight Percentage Bonus = ItemBonus * Sensors + Item%Bonus * 10000
ItemBonus for Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI is 0.25 (seems arbitrary, but it fits the numbers)
Item%Bonus is the +% StealthSight in the item description at 0 Sensors, which for Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI is 1%
Incorporating that into the earlier formula for SDR, looks as follows:
SDR = (Base SDR + (Base SDR/100) * Sensors) * (1 + 0.02 * (Aux power - 50)) + (ItemBonus * Sensors + Item%Bonus * 10000)
Base SDR is 60 for science vessels, 20 otherwise
...and it would be nifty if we could get the ItemBonus numbers for other gear that works along those lines. We get the Item%Bonus numbers from the gear itself, but not the ItemBonus numbers...meh. Things like the Jem Mk XII Deflector...is it the same as the Mk XI? What about the Rom Deflector? TDF and TDG?
I should have used the first name I thought up for this thread.
I know Feds got a crapton of toys to play around with and a solid fleet of cruisers and sci ships that the KDF and Republic wishes they could match but if you look at the forums you see Starfleet trying their hardest for what? Even the pakled could answer that. Yes I know it won't happen. Yes they should learn to make do with the huge number of ships that they have over the other 2 factions. Yes trying to deal with them is foolish. But I'm somewhat of a fool.
The real idea behind this thread was to give Starfleet (and other) ships that can not cloak a simpler counter to cloak? That is not right. Let me try to say this right.
I'm not good at the numbers behind STO so if you wish to help me with this little what if please speak up.
Lets take two ships. One KDF or Rom vs Fed. Pit them against each other. Nothing is boosting their cloaking or sensor stats. Same levels of aux between both ships. At what range does the Fed ship spot the other ship?
There are already plenty of ways to detect cloaked ships (the Federation has one more than the KDF to) its up to you to learn how to use them effectively.
Lets take two ships. One KDF or Rom vs Fed. Pit them against each other. Nothing is boosting their cloaking or sensor stats. Same levels of aux between both ships. At what range does the Fed ship spot the other ship?
No Sensors skill...no +Perception/Stealth Detection boosts...?
No Stealth skill...no +Stealth boosts (not that the majority of them work anyway)...?
The Non-Science Vessel in the above example will never see either the Warbird or Non-Warbird unless they decloak (or are decloaked by one of the many things that will decloak them).
The Science Vessel will see the Non-Warbird at 0.5km. It will not see the Warbird.
That is with nothing boosting anything outside of Auxiliary and assuming that the Warbird is at 0 Singularity Charge. At 100 Singularity Charge/5 Pips, the Warbird will have 4705 Stealth - allowing the Science Vessel to see it at 7.4km and the Non-Science Vessel to see it at 6.4km.
Let's say each adds an equal amount of skill to the equation. 99/9 Starship Sensors and 99/9 Starship Stealth....
Again, the Non-Science Vessel is not seeing anything. The Science Vessel cannot see the Warbird, but it can see the Non-Warbird at 0.995km. The same amount of skill added, nearly doubled the viewable distance of the Science Vessel on the Non-Warbird.
Let's add in some more skill via consoles. Let's give each 3x +31.9 consoles, taking the respective skill of each to 194.7.
Still, the Non-Science Vessel is not seeing anything as we keep the skill levels the same. At this point though, the Science Vessel can now see the Warbird at 0.3735km. It can see the Non-Warbird at 1.4735km.
Okay, let's skip the consoles...go back to just the 99/9 skill and add in an EPtA1 to the mix, eh?
The Non-Science Vessel can see the Warbird at 0.905km and the Non-Warbird at 2.005km. The Science Vessel can see the Warbird at 2.895km and the Non-Warbird at 3.995km.
EPtA1 adds 3km of Perception. The +Stealth from EPtA1 does not apply...it's bugged.
Thing is, folks are unlikely to be running 9 Starship Stealth. That +99 skill is only providing +49.5 Stealth Value. The 9 Starship Sensors on the other hand is not only providing the variable boost to Stealth Detection/Perception, it is also providing a boost to Placate/Confuse resistance. So folks will generally have 3-6 Sensors to reduce the duration of Placates/Confuses anyway...regardless of whether they're expecting cloakers or not - just to deal with things like Jam Sensors, Scramble Sensors, Antimatter Spread, etc, etc, etc.
The above is just a brief look into it...it excluded the use of things like the Jem Mk XI/XI Deflector, the Rom Mk XII Deflector, the Tachyon Detection Field console from the T3 Nebula that can be used on any Fed/Fed-aligned ship, a Sci Captain using Sensor Scan, the use of various abilities like Gravity Well, Tyken's Rift, Photonic Shockwave, Charged Particle Burst, and the like - as well as various mines. It also doesn't include exploiting the use of NPCs/pets to be able to pinpoint the location of the cloaker, since NPCs even if they will not fire on the cloaker - can still see them and allow you to maneuver into position to use something like PSW/CPB...or even do a Singularity Jump if you are in a Warbird.
If one does nothing...then well, they're going to get nothing. But there's quite a bit that can be done...that folks still bother to cloak, imho, is because the majority of players don't bother to do anything...either because they're not aware of what they can do or they just don't want to be bothered. It was one thing before LoR, where folks could stick to FvF and the odds of seeing a Fed cloaker were pretty damn rare. LoR should have change that, because FvF was full of Romulans. For some reason though...it didn't. Always found that curious...
Comments
...is a thread I believe should be a sticky. There are a bunch of other threads discussing more aspects (things tend to happen like that because things are not stickied)...but page #5 of that has the formula for Stealth Detection/Perception.
Awesome resource, though all the hence & forth around bugs can make it confusing.
Heh, guess I could have said post #48...
Linked it... http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=12099901#post12099901
Or quoted it...
...and it would be nifty if we could get the ItemBonus numbers for other gear that works along those lines. We get the Item%Bonus numbers from the gear itself, but not the ItemBonus numbers...meh. Things like the Jem Mk XII Deflector...is it the same as the Mk XI? What about the Rom Deflector? TDF and TDG?
I know Feds got a crapton of toys to play around with and a solid fleet of cruisers and sci ships that the KDF and Republic wishes they could match but if you look at the forums you see Starfleet trying their hardest for what? Even the pakled could answer that. Yes I know it won't happen. Yes they should learn to make do with the huge number of ships that they have over the other 2 factions. Yes trying to deal with them is foolish. But I'm somewhat of a fool.
The real idea behind this thread was to give Starfleet (and other) ships that can not cloak a simpler counter to cloak? That is not right. Let me try to say this right.
I'm not good at the numbers behind STO so if you wish to help me with this little what if please speak up.
Lets take two ships. One KDF or Rom vs Fed. Pit them against each other. Nothing is boosting their cloaking or sensor stats. Same levels of aux between both ships. At what range does the Fed ship spot the other ship?
No Sensors skill...no +Perception/Stealth Detection boosts...?
No Stealth skill...no +Stealth boosts (not that the majority of them work anyway)...?
Say we go with 125 Aux.
Science Vessel: 5075 Perception
Non-Science Vessel: 5025 Perception
Warbird Cloak: 5105 Stealth
Non-Warbird Cloak: 5050 Stealth
The Non-Science Vessel in the above example will never see either the Warbird or Non-Warbird unless they decloak (or are decloaked by one of the many things that will decloak them).
The Science Vessel will see the Non-Warbird at 0.5km. It will not see the Warbird.
That is with nothing boosting anything outside of Auxiliary and assuming that the Warbird is at 0 Singularity Charge. At 100 Singularity Charge/5 Pips, the Warbird will have 4705 Stealth - allowing the Science Vessel to see it at 7.4km and the Non-Science Vessel to see it at 6.4km.
Let's say each adds an equal amount of skill to the equation. 99/9 Starship Sensors and 99/9 Starship Stealth....
Science Vessel: 5149.25 Perception
Non-Science Vessel: 5049.75 Perception
Warbird: 5154.5 Stealth
Non-Warbird: 5099.5 Stealth
Again, the Non-Science Vessel is not seeing anything. The Science Vessel cannot see the Warbird, but it can see the Non-Warbird at 0.995km. The same amount of skill added, nearly doubled the viewable distance of the Science Vessel on the Non-Warbird.
Let's add in some more skill via consoles. Let's give each 3x +31.9 consoles, taking the respective skill of each to 194.7.
Science Vessel: 5221.025 Perception
Non-Science Vessel: 5073.675 Perception
Warbird: 5202.35 Stealth
Non-Warbird: 5147.35 Stealth
Still, the Non-Science Vessel is not seeing anything as we keep the skill levels the same. At this point though, the Science Vessel can now see the Warbird at 0.3735km. It can see the Non-Warbird at 1.4735km.
Okay, let's skip the consoles...go back to just the 99/9 skill and add in an EPtA1 to the mix, eh?
Science Vessel: 5299.25 Perception
Non-Science Vessel: 5199.75 Perception
Warbird: 5154.5 Stealth
Non-Warbird: 5099.5 Stealth
The Non-Science Vessel can see the Warbird at 0.905km and the Non-Warbird at 2.005km. The Science Vessel can see the Warbird at 2.895km and the Non-Warbird at 3.995km.
EPtA1 adds 3km of Perception. The +Stealth from EPtA1 does not apply...it's bugged.
Thing is, folks are unlikely to be running 9 Starship Stealth. That +99 skill is only providing +49.5 Stealth Value. The 9 Starship Sensors on the other hand is not only providing the variable boost to Stealth Detection/Perception, it is also providing a boost to Placate/Confuse resistance. So folks will generally have 3-6 Sensors to reduce the duration of Placates/Confuses anyway...regardless of whether they're expecting cloakers or not - just to deal with things like Jam Sensors, Scramble Sensors, Antimatter Spread, etc, etc, etc.
The above is just a brief look into it...it excluded the use of things like the Jem Mk XI/XI Deflector, the Rom Mk XII Deflector, the Tachyon Detection Field console from the T3 Nebula that can be used on any Fed/Fed-aligned ship, a Sci Captain using Sensor Scan, the use of various abilities like Gravity Well, Tyken's Rift, Photonic Shockwave, Charged Particle Burst, and the like - as well as various mines. It also doesn't include exploiting the use of NPCs/pets to be able to pinpoint the location of the cloaker, since NPCs even if they will not fire on the cloaker - can still see them and allow you to maneuver into position to use something like PSW/CPB...or even do a Singularity Jump if you are in a Warbird.
If one does nothing...then well, they're going to get nothing. But there's quite a bit that can be done...that folks still bother to cloak, imho, is because the majority of players don't bother to do anything...either because they're not aware of what they can do or they just don't want to be bothered. It was one thing before LoR, where folks could stick to FvF and the odds of seeing a Fed cloaker were pretty damn rare. LoR should have change that, because FvF was full of Romulans. For some reason though...it didn't. Always found that curious...