Master Key inflation and what it means.

vamank

First off I would like to say that I watch the STO Exchange daily and have done so for over a year.Because of this I have a fair good idea of pricing trends and what availability different items have.

@ the moment keys are close to 2.6 Million EC Each over 1.3 to 1.4 Million this time last year. This has resulted in not only prices of ships to skyrocket but the availability of both lockbox ships and lobi ships to drop as well. The price of keys has resulted in less people buying keys with EC and therefore less ships being available. Traits have also seen a dramatic increase as well.

Myself personally have only bought maybe 5 keys in the last several months because of the high key price. People in my fleet are refusing to buy keys either with EC or Zen. This has led to hoarding of EC and less EC flowing through the economy.

The reason I bring this up is I see that if something doesn't change soon the STO Economy might take a serious hit in the future.

Any comments or ideas?

thecosmic1

This has to be your 5th or 6th thread about the game's economy. They have ranged from Cryptic secretly manipulating the economy to crying wolf about what might happen if X does not do Y. It seems like it is just time to give it a break. In reality it is really simple:

As long as the game keeps pouring millions of EC into the economy daily inflation is going to keep going up. It is the same in a game environment as it is in the real world - the more dollars the Treasury prints the less value the dollar has and the more expensive things become.

No major EC sinks means more inflation.

tcgrandpa

no problem I usually sell 10 keys every 1-2 days. I'll make sure there is a supply on the exchange, its called a free market.

warmaker001b

People will pay what they're willing to pay.

ashkrik23

Keys are probably increasing because some of the lockbox stuff is really desired.
Not to mention it's dilithium weekend soo....

spacebaronline

I don't even think the current box contains the mining claims any more? Did they discontinue them from new boxes?

edit - I see they are still there.

Funny this lottery - I opened 40 boxes and got zero claims - and all garbage loot.

reginamala78

It costs 1.8m worth of contraband, turned to dil turned to zen, to buy a key yourself, less if you're buying the 10 packs. If you're paying more than that, then you're an idiot that can't do basic math and just do the work yourself.

edgecrysger

ashkrik23 wrote: »

Keys are probably increasing because some of the lockbox stuff is really desired.
Not to mention it's dilithium weekend soo....

Not really lol. The last lockbox WAS NOT desired. But precisely all the people who will waste tons of zen buying keys to open undine lockboxes are the ones who for sure, will waste a lot of money in em. Thats the only reason NO DESIRED lockboxes still will be released. Because they will sell no matter wat. People who wants a cleaned star trek environment, never wanted tholian lockboxes, undine lockboxes and a few more. The other people, who only wants to fly a new brand original playable ship, are the ones who will waste the money. And because cryptic knows it and they will do watever they want of course.

vamank

thecosmic1 wrote: »

This has to be your 5th or 6th thread about the game's economy. They have ranged from Cryptic secretly manipulating the economy to crying wolf about what might happen if X does not do Y. It seems like it is just time to give it a break. In reality it is really simple:

As long as the game keeps pouring millions of EC into the economy daily inflation is going to keep going up. It is the same in a game environment as it is in the real world - the more dollars the Treasury prints the less value the dollar has and the more expensive things become.

No major EC sinks means more inflation.

I watch the games economy so that is my major discussion topic. Sometimes I post topics sometimes for the sole purpose of attempting to manipulate the economy as there is not an something like the SEC regulating the economy. I notice these trends and post also to gauge other peoples opinions. I spend 95% of my time in front of the exchange or leading my fleet then actually doing the regurgitated content.

shadowwraith77

thecosmic1 wrote: »

This has to be your 5th or 6th thread about the game's economy. They have ranged from Cryptic secretly manipulating the economy to crying wolf about what might happen if X does not do Y. It seems like it is just time to give it a break. In reality it is really simple:

As long as the game keeps pouring millions of EC into the economy daily inflation is going to keep going up. It is the same in a game environment as it is in the real world - the more dollars the Treasury prints the less value the dollar has and the more expensive things become.

No major EC sinks means more inflation.

You also forgot the first law of an economy, is that inflation spells greed plain and simple.

Supply and demand is a joke, when there is virtually (sarcasm included at no additional charge) an unlimited supply of 80+% of sold items.

People inflate pricing because the supply is high, and the demand stays flowing, so they jack pricing to keep the gravy train flowing till it stalls, or crashes.

If government printing money, is supposed to do what I don't know besides cause further problems for the economy.

Because flowing extra money into the economy, doesn't get me a raise at work because there is more money in the economy, but it does allow my boss and his boss, and so on to earn more.

I myself stopped bying them from the exchange, simply because of the huge inflation.

ashkrik23

edgecrysger wrote: »

Not really lol. The last lockbox WAS NOT desired. But precisely all the people who will waste tons of zen buying keys to open undine lockboxes are the ones who for sure, will waste a lot of money in em. Thats the only reason NO DESIRED lockboxes still will be released. Because they will sell no matter wat. People who wants a cleaned star trek environment, never wanted tholian lockboxes, undine lockboxes and a few more. The other people, who only wants to fly a new brand original playable ship, are the ones who will waste the money. And because cryptic knows it and they will do watever they want of course.

I wasn't talking about the Hirogen box.

spacebaronline

vamank wrote: »

I watch the games economy so that is my major discussion topic. I post topics sometimes for the sole purpose of attempting to manipulate the economy as there is not an something like the SEC regulating the economy. I notice these trends and post also to gauge other peoples opinions. I spend 95% of my time in front of the exchange or leading my fleet then actually doing the regurgitated content.

Ah - a "market manipulator" - just like Goldman Sachs - well they are exempt from the SEC anyways - since almost every Fed chair/SEC head/Treasury secretary is a former Goldman Sachs employee.

But congrats - although you must not have too great an effect since not too many people visit the forums - especially in the last few months - the avg thread gets a few hundred views at most.

You could just be kidding of course - and that's ok to:P

damix4

reginamala78 wrote: »

It costs 1.8m worth of contraband, turned to dil turned to zen, to buy a key yourself, less if you're buying the 10 packs. If you're paying more than that, then you're an idiot that can't do basic math and just do the work yourself.

No, you got the math wrong.. You are using old data in your calculation.

szim

cosmic is right. Every day millions of EC are pumped into the game via loot. At the same time there are only few extraction mechanisms like zen store items being sold on the exchange or purchases from NPCs. All other transactions are only exchanges between players. The STO economy is not like a real economy in which the total amount of money is increasing or decreasing slowly over time depending on the current state of the economy. It is a high inflation economy. And the degree of inflation is dependend on the number of active players.

As long as prices of Zen store items are the same the EC prices for said items will keep increasing. Unless Crytic introduces a massive EC extraction mechanism. But with the new Undine battle zone they seem to go the opposite way. With all this "free" loot EC influx has been increased significantly.

shpoks

ashkrik23 wrote: »

I wasn't talking about the Hirogen box.

I have a feeling he wasn't talking about it either.

reginamala78

damix4 wrote: »

No, you got the math wrong.. You are using old data in your calculation.

*doublechecks* Okay price of contraband has gone up to 44k since I last looked, which adjusted makes it 1.925m for 125 zen/1 key. Still means anyone dumb enough to pay that 2.5m price deserves what they get. Its not 'market inflation' though, just whiny stupid people.

the1tigglet

szim wrote: »

cosmic is right. Every day millions of EC are pumped into the game via loot. At the same time there are only few extraction mechanisms like zen store items being sold on the exchange or purchases from NPCs. All other transactions are only exchanges between players. The STO economy is not like a real economy in which the total amount of money is increasing or decreasing slowly over time depending on the current state of the economy. It is a high inflation economy. And the degree of inflation is dependend on the number of active players.

As long as prices of Zen store items are the same the EC prices for said items will keep increasing. Unless Crytic introduces a massive EC extraction mechanism. But with the new Undine battle zone they seem to go the opposite way. With all this "free" loot EC influx has been increased significantly.

He is actually correct, for the reasons you claim.

See this was happening in another title I was playing until recently. They added gear to be crafted that was a tier above what was there in the beginning. They made it a huge grind for multiple materials to get crafting to the level you needed to craft the gear as well as the materials to make the gear pieces. This gear also affected PVP because it provided higher scores for PVP players especially those who deal with multiple enemies at once.

Until this gear was added the inflation rate on enchants in their store had reached almost 500% from launch in less than a year.

Keep in mind people that even with mechanisms like this eventually players leave and eventually these items become not desireable so the market begins to inflate again.

They need a sink for the EC but not something typical not higher costs in the fleet building system mind you but perhaps a revamp and restoration of the usefulness of the crafting system.

tenkari

shpoks wrote: »

I have a feeling he wasn't talking about it either.

and i have a feeling he feels that about every lockbox.

bareel

As others have said, EC sink es needed.

Three great easy places to put them, IMHO, would be...

1) Exchange Tax. This is a great one because if it is a % it will auto inflate with everything else.

2) Mail Tax. Why not.

3) Contraband turn in Fee. This would take massive amounts out even at a reasonable number like say 10k EC.

Other good places for EC sinks would be desireable consumables, Doff system, Boff training (add captain only trained skills for a mil EC for example), and so on.

I really cannot believe STO does not have any long term even minor EC sinks. Every other game exchange has atleast performed a tiny amount of de-inflation in my experience.

*On an unrelated note is it just me or has the dil to zen market held steady even with the current event?

cptjhunter

bareel wrote: »

As others have said, EC sink es needed.

Three great easy places to put them, IMHO, would be...

1) Exchange Tax. This is a great one because if it is a % it will auto inflate with everything else.

2) Mail Tax. Why not.

3) Contraband turn in Fee. This would take massive amounts out even at a reasonable number like say 10k EC.

Other good places for EC sinks would be desireable consumables, Doff system, Boff training (add captain only trained skills for a mil EC for example), and so on.

I really cannot believe STO does not have any long term even minor EC sinks. Every other game exchange has atleast performed a tiny amount of de-inflation in my experience.

*On an unrelated note is it just me or has the dil to zen market held steady even with the current event?

HOW ABOUT NO:

I pay enough taxes in the real world.Keep it out of the game!
If the concept of a free market frightens you go back to farming beets comrade.

ursusmorologus

Could do stuff like, ~extra dil refinement for a fee

Need to be careful not to penalize new players.

hyefather

thecosmic1 wrote: »

This has to be your 5th or 6th thread about the game's economy. They have ranged from Cryptic secretly manipulating the economy to crying wolf about what might happen if X does not do Y. It seems like it is just time to give it a break. In reality it is really simple:

As long as the game keeps pouring millions of EC into the economy daily inflation is going to keep going up. It is the same in a game environment as it is in the real world - the more dollars the Treasury prints the less value the dollar has and the more expensive things become.

No major EC sinks means more inflation.

I for one think we could use a Good Economist for sto. I enjoy reading about economics in video games. Helps me to decide on wether to trade in all my zen for dil or buy up a bunch of keys for 1.6 mil (like they was last month) and make 60% profit on them a month later. It shouldn't end with just basic economics either. The OP should also consider philosphical theories, markets, macroeconomics and what ever else that could benifit us players. That being said "thecosmic" shouldn't try and rain on the OPs post just because he/she has posted simular topics before. Thats what the forums are fore.

thecosmic1

hyefather wrote: »

I for one think we could use a Good Economist for sto. I enjoy reading about economics in video games. Helps me to decide on wether to trade in all my zen for dil or buy up a bunch of keys for 1.6 mil (like they was last month) and make 60% profit on them a month later. It shouldn't end with just basic economics either. The OP should also consider philosphical theories, markets, macroeconomics and what ever else that could benifit us players. That being said "thecosmic" shouldn't try and rain on the OPs post just because he/she has posted simular topics before. Thats what the forums are fore.

The OP has a habit of creating conspiracy theories where there are none. Perhaps you should read some of his other threads before you start assuming he is an expert on anything.

thecosmic1

sopwithsnipe wrote: »

And how exactly do you recommend players be reimbursed for the real money they spent to get the EC your suggested EC sinks will be removing from their accounts.

Real money = Zen = Lock Box Keys = EC

Cuz that is what people will be screaming about and leaving the game over.


EC sinks are fine and dandy as long as there is no real money loss.

Whether real money is lost or not something needs to be done. Just look at a basic numbers example:

Assuming 100,000 players playing daily, and assuming they each make 100,000 EC daily - the VAs making more then 100k and the lower levels making less, but averaging 100,000 - the game is adding 10 billion EC to the economy daily via Loot drops: 10 billion per day, 300 billion per month, 1.2 trillion per quarter, etc. When there is nothing taking any portion of that 10 billion out of the economy you create rampant inflation.

The EC has been massively devalued due to the surplus in the system. If you do not put in sinks the 100 million EC items will simply rise to 200 million, and onward.

solidneutronium

The hyper inflation in the exchange is due to the greedy axeholes that plays the exchange metagame. That's all they do buy low sell high and there's a lot of them. Those are the guys you need to thank.

thecosmic1

solidneutronium wrote: »

The hyper inflation in the exchange is due to the greedy axeholes that plays the exchange metagame. That's all they do buy low sell high and there's a lot of them. Those are the guys you need to thank.

That is the shortsighted view. People will spend 100 million EC on something because they have 100 million EC to spend. They have the 100 million EC because the game gave it to them and there was nothing in-game they needed to spend it on, so it just gets accumulated.

I am not saying greed is not part of human nature, but if you made $1 million dollars a day and only needed $100.00 a day to live on you would spend the excess on elaborate things too.

spacebaronline

thecosmic1 wrote: »

Whether real money is lost or not something needs to be done. Just look at a basic numbers example:

Assuming 100,000 players playing daily, and assuming they each make 100,000 EC daily - the VAs making more then 100k and the lower levels making less, but averaging 100,000 - the game is adding 10 billion EC to the economy daily via Loot drops: 10 billion per day, 300 billion per month, 1.2 trillion per quarter, etc. When there is nothing taking any portion of that 10 billion out of the economy you create rampant inflation.

The EC has been massively devalued due to the surplus in the system. If you do not put in sinks the 100 million EC items will simply rise to 200 million, and onward.

With the advent of the Fleet consoles/gear many items have come down substantially in price.

A Purple phaser Mk12 tac console used to cost $50 million EC easy - now what is it $10 million tops?

Also lock-box ships have remained pretty constant - lobi ones in the 70-90 million range and drop ones in the 60-90 million range for the current one(high demand current ones/less people buying the boxes/cryptic lowers the drop rate - does cause some current one to be very high like the $200m Nicor warship)

The market seems pretty stable to me with the exception of a few items.

spacebaronline

thecosmic1 wrote: »

That is the shortsighted view. People will spend 100 million EC on something because they have 100 million EC to spend. They have the 100 million EC because the game gave it to them and there was nothing in-game they needed to spend it on, so it just gets accumulated.

I am not saying greed is not part of human nature, but if you made $1 million dollars a day and only needed $100.00 a day to live on you would spend the excess on elaborate things too.

I remember watching(I don't know why) some Saudi Prince ex-wife crying on T.V that her ANNUAL clothing allowance had been cut from $20 million US down to ONLY $5 million US after the divorce.

I felt so sorry for her :rolleyes:- only $5 million a year for cloths - it was a horrible situation;)

bareel

Look at it this way, they recently changed traits to facilitate the 'fresh' level 50 player to not feel like they cannot keep up.

If EC inflation continues so many things on the exchange would take that 'fresh' 50 player far too long to gather enough EC to participate in the market at all.

solidneutronium

thecosmic1 wrote: »

That is the shortsighted view. People will spend 100 million EC on something because they have 100 million EC to spend. They have the 100 million EC because the game gave it to them and there was nothing in-game they needed to spend it on, so it just gets accumulated.

I am not saying greed is not part of human nature, but if you made $1 million dollars a day and only needed $100.00 a day to live on you would spend the excess on elaborate things too.

Cryptic is usually to blame for most of these problems but in this case they're only the enabler. It's the greedy ones that take it it to the highest level on this one.

Now I understand when people start to price gouge when disasters hit.

cbrjwrr

cptjhunter wrote: »

HOW ABOUT NO:

I pay enough taxes in the real world.Keep it out of the game!
If the concept of a free market frightens you go back to farming beets comrade.

This. It isn't exactly hard to make massive EC, just time intensive.

Also, an EC tax will raise EC prices, not lower them - As I cant be bothered to repeat myself, I'll link my post from the last time it came up. My bit is half way down.

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=884891&page=4

Bottom line is, an EC tax is useless for taking EC out of the economy, there needs to be something at Cryptics end buyable with EC that is worth buying. Crafting materials would be a start.