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Help Me Understand Shipyard Base Turn Rate

astimingpyleastimingpyle Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited May 2014 in The Academy
According to the Earth Space Dock Shipyard, the base turn rate for the following ships are:
Fleet Support Cruiser Retrofit 7
Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit 8
Fleet Battle Cruiser 9

However, a fleetmate of mine who has all three of these ships, makes this claim: While out in space, as in Sol system space, just outside Earth Space Dock, with no consoles slotted that modify turn rate, his base turn rates (as found under Movement in the ship status window) for these same ships are:
Fleet Support Cruiser Retrofit has a base turn rate of 4.2 deg/sec
Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit base turn rate 4.4 deg/sec
Fleet Battle Cruiser has a base turn rate of 4.4 deg/sec

Now, I understand that the base turn rate reported by ESD Ship Yard are not in deg/sec. But I don't know what those numbers are.
I believe my fleetmates's numbers without consoles are still possibly influenced by his slotting of Engineering Systems Skill “Starship Impulse Thursters”.
But since he used the same Tactical character to view the numbers for all three ships, I would expect the ships to have three different numbers since each ship has a different base turn rate.

So, keeping in mind that he loaded up each ship on the same character so the skills and Duty Officers are exactly the same for each ship, please help me understand:

What the base turn rate number is that is reported by the Shipyard as it does not seem to be degrees per second

Why would the Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit and Fleet Battle Cruiser have exactly the same deg/sec turn rate given they have equal skill slotting, no turn rate enhancing consoles, but the base turn rate of the Fleet Battle Cruiser is one number higher then the Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit

Why are all the deg/sec turn rate for all three ship so close that it seemingly makes the point of the shipyard reporting base turn rate useless information

Thank you for your time and effort!
Post edited by astimingpyle on

Comments

  • hevachhevach Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    This doesn't address most of your answers, but would help inform answers: Did your fleet mate test stationary? All ships have a penalty to turn rate at low speeds, becoming particularly severe when stationary. Most ships seem to be in the 4-5 range when stationary - for example, my ship (base turn rate of 15) is 4.9, but that jumps to 29.3 at anything above quarter impulse.
  • astimingpyleastimingpyle Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    hevach wrote: »
    This doesn't address most of your answers, but would help inform answers: Did your fleet mate test stationary? All ships have a penalty to turn rate at low speeds, becoming particularly severe when stationary. Most ships seem to be in the 4-5 range when stationary - for example, my ship (base turn rate of 15) is 4.9, but that jumps to 29.3 at anything above quarter impulse.

    Yes he was stationary. But the problem with movement is, as in your case, you jump to 29.3 or some number that is not the base turn rate.
  • hevachhevach Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    With movement, you jump up to your turn rate modified by skills, impulse engine, engine power, consoles, and other factors. You pretty much won't see your base in the actual game because of the number of other factors involved, just like you won't see hull match the value in the shipyard. Turn rate is even stickier than hull, since power levels are a factor, so even carefully controlling for skills and engines leaves that hole to cloud things.

    The value shown while stationary is pretty much the least useful way to compare turn rates, because the effect of being stationary is now the biggest factor.

    For example, I also don't have turn rate consoles, but I do have impulse engines, skills, and system power involved.
  • fatman592fatman592 Member Posts: 1,207 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Yes he was stationary. But the problem with movement is, as in your case, you jump to 29.3 or some number that is not the base turn rate.

    Right, the turn rate will be modified by engine power level, the impulse engines equipped, impulse thruster skill spec and so fourth.

    So the number provided is just that, a base stat. Generally, 10 or less is a whale, 11-15 is fairly responsive, 16+ requires pretty strong piloting skills.

    Unless you want to do some math- or respec and equip some common gear to a given ship- you'll just have to take that number with a grain of salt.

    Edit: Ninja'ed...
  • astimingpyleastimingpyle Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    fatman592 wrote: »
    Right, the turn rate will be modified by engine power level, the impulse engines equipped, impulse thruster skill spec and so fourth.

    So the number provided is just that, a base stat. Generally, 10 or less is a whale, 11-15 is fairly responsive, 16+ requires pretty strong piloting skills.

    Unless you want to do some math- or respec and equip some common gear to a given ship- you'll just have to take that number with a grain of salt.

    Edit: Ninja'ed...

    Ah... so the fact the the Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit and the Fleet Battle Cruiser appeared to have the same turn rate even though the description at ESD said they are different could be due to a difference in engines (impulse and/or warp)!

    I'll have to ask him to repeat the process but strip out his engines and consoles. Strip everything that could effect turn rate that can be stripped. This would leave only the "Starship Impulse Thursters" skills that can't be readily stripped, but at least it should show a difference between the two ships.

    What this is really about is, I was told the Fleet Battle Cruiser has the fasted turn rate for a tier 5 ship, and my fleetmate disagrees. The shipyard description supports my understanding, but when he loaded up his ships, and looked at the numbers there was not a difference at all.
  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,358 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I'll have to ask him to repeat the process but strip out his engines and consoles. Strip everything that could effect turn rate that can be stripped.

    If you strip out your impulse engines you'll go nowhere. Tried that one time, my max impulse speed was 3. :D Instead of removing everything, have him use the same things on all tests.
  • fatman592fatman592 Member Posts: 1,207 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    What this is really about is, I was told the Fleet Battle Cruiser has the fasted turn rate for a tier 5 ship, and my fleetmate disagrees. The shipyard description supports my understanding, but when he loaded up his ships, and looked at the numbers there was not a difference at all.

    The three ships you listed are pretty much comparable. When you actually use the ships, you're probably going to run EPtE on all of them so the difference in turn rate will be tenths or hundredths, not whole numbers. There's several variables and unless you're willing to do the math, you're probably not going to get a conclusive answer. In any event, your fleetmate is flatly wrong.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Ah... so the fact the the Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit and the Fleet Battle Cruiser appeared to have the same turn rate even though the description at ESD said they are different could be due to a difference in engines (impulse and/or warp)!

    Its more like having a ship ancored and wondering why a speedboot has the same turnrate as an carrier ;)

    And yes, make those tests under the same circumstancies, e.g. same equipment.
  • edited May 2014
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  • rmxiiirmxiii Member Posts: 221 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Yeah. With the same equipment on an Assault Cruiser Refit (7) and the Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit (8), with both at half impulse I could tell that my Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit was turning faster. Though now I barely even touch my Assault Cruiser Refit and constantly fly my Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I seem to remember that there was once a thread discussing how turn rate worked, but I can only find this incomplete summary on the mechanics in the thread I link in my signature (the thread is very old, unfortunately, and I can't update it anymore):

    Q: How do turn rate consoles and other turn boosters work? I don't seem to get the turn rate I expect?
    A: Modifiers from the relevant skill and modifiers from the consoles are added seperately and based on your ships base turn rate. So if your ship has a base turn rate of 8 and your skills raise this to 11, a 30 % turn rate buff from a console or a BO ability would not increase it to 14.4, it would only raise it to 13.4. But, once again, it's actually a little more complicated than that, and various tests show that the base turn rate given for your ship is not used for such percentage buffs, but the turn rate -3.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • astimingpyleastimingpyle Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Yeah, this is just getting more confusing now.
    He argued that the Shipyard description is in degree/seconds just like the ship reports and he loaded up some Romulan ship (I don't know which one) and after stripping out gear, it reported the exact 16 deg/sec the Shipyard said it had. So, it would appear that for this Romulan ship, the shipyard and the ship had the same number for base turn rate, but the other ships mentioned in this thread above do not.

    After this, I think I'll just presume the Shipyard description is to be deemed as unreliable in regard to base turn rate, and when I choose a ship, I'll see what I can do to get as accurate a spec as I can on the ships I choose from from other sources.

    It would be great if in game you could see what your starting base turn rate is on a ship and then the differences made by gearing up would be a separate number. It would also be great if the numbers for these sorts of things were consistent regardless of what space you are in. I get different numbers depending if I am in sector space and system space. This also seems to apply to resistance/defense numbers.
  • somebobsomebob Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    It would be great if in game you could see what your starting base turn rate is on a ship and then the differences made by gearing up would be a separate number. It would also be great if the numbers for these sorts of things were consistent regardless of what space you are in. I get different numbers depending if I am in sector space and system space. This also seems to apply to resistance/defense numbers.

    That would be really really really really really really really really really really really really really useful.

    Which is why I don't ever expect to see it happen.

    It would take a lot of recoding to see something like this, and I don't see Cryptic doing that for the portion of the population that would find this kind of detail useful (like me).
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