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Does new undine equip make photons viable?

ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
edited May 2014 in Klingon Discussion
I see that there is an undine deflector that enhances torpedo/ photon damage, a new tactical console and biomolcular photon projectile weapons. I was wondering if I should work toward that equipment or not.
Do all of the new undine things enable making a good photon projectile build?

If anyone has the set already, what is your impression of it?

Thanks.
Post edited by ryakidrys on
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Comments

  • aramyllaramyll Member Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    no one has the set yet, however since the dyson rep and its console set you can get a hefty boost to photon damage, combine that with the console set from undine rep and you have a nice combo and boost to photons.
  • catliketypingcatliketyping Member Posts: 611
    edited April 2014
    With the console boosting radiation damage and photon damage, the new biomolecular torpedos get the interesting boost for a pure photon bomber.

    I have 2 bio torpedos and 1 bio mine launcher from undine projects.

    It slaughters Undine. Vaporizes the small stuff, anyway.

    I havent taken it out against other things since i dont have the other set pieces though.
    Nessia (KDF Sci)
    IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
  • mandoknight89mandoknight89 Member Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Photon torpedoes have been at least viable as far as torpedoes go since Season 8 and the Gravimetric Torpedo and its set, which adds a total +13% crit chance and +10% crit severity (on top of the equivalent of a photon torpedo tactical console) to photon torpedoes.

    And you can mix that set with the new Counter Command weapon set, for more photon torp damage.

    Also consider the Omega reputation's Kinetic Shear trait, which is another +40% hull damage as a 6 second DoT that stacks (up to 5 times, I believe).
  • tom61stotom61sto Member Posts: 3,635 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Only running photon torps with no energy weapons, not really, IMO you still need energy to bleed down/through shields . If you mean bolting a couple of photons fore, definitely. +25% all torp damage from KHG, +22% photon damage and +10% Critical Chance for Photon (in addition to +3% Critical hit. and +10% Critical Damage all weapons) from the Dyson Rep's Protonic Arsenal led me to bolting on both the very fun Gravametric Torp and a Mk XII standard Photon to the fore weapons of my Mogh to nice effect. With running a couple of Projectile Weapons Officers (I'm just running Law and the Jem'Hadar one from the 2800 series) you shouldn't need more than 2 Photons to be at the global cooldown of 2 seconds for torps. The newer stuff should enhance it further, but it'd be better paired the Disruptor (or Phaser) weapons with the new set bonuses.
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I guess I should have clarified some things. I currently run 2 B'Rel's as transphasic mine layers with 2 rapid reload torps to reduce cooldown on the cluster-mine torps. One is a Tac using A2B, and the other is Sci using a non-A2B setup. Anyway, I am relatively solid with the transphasic setup, but saw the undine stuff and was wondering if an all photon build would be comparable or better if I spent the resources to obtain the parts.
    Has anyone tried to make a photon torpedo build using a mix of biomolecular, gravimetric and regular photon weapons with the new undine rep consoles, deflector, etc.? Preferrably one that uses 1 or 2 photon mines too.

    Thanks.
  • pweistheworstpweistheworst Member Posts: 986 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    The new undine rep stuff "might" make an all-photon torpedo boat deal more damage than an all quantum or all transphasic torpedo boat (I'm guessing that is what you mean by "viable"), but I can't say for sure until I finish grinding and can find out for myself.

    I tried making a super photon torpedo boat earlier this year with the gravimetric torpedo and consoles from the Dyson rep but it still lacked the devastating power of my quantum torpedo builds.

    Right now, my biggest damage dealer is an escort running two tetryon heavy cannons (to weaken shields) and all the other weapons are quantum torps. Ships go BOOM fast unless they know how to tank and are ready to pop Miracle Worker and/or have shields specifically designed to resist tetryon shield bleed.

    Anyway, I'm sticking with Quantum until I can test out the new Undine rep gear.
    In the immortal words of Captain Sisko: "It may not be what you believe, but that doesn't make it wrong."

    Don't believe the lies in this forum. I am NOT an ARC user. I play STO on Steam or not at all.
  • catliketypingcatliketyping Member Posts: 611
    edited May 2014
    Again, the new stuff is great for Undine. Think of the new bio torps as plasmas for getting to hull without deshielding. It's the same, for the most part.

    The radiation buff in the console exceeds the buff for phaser/disruptors, so i slot the Harghpeng as well. I also use bio mines.

    The new thing isnt a great console for Phasers or Disruptors, but it is better than nothing if you must run a photon torp... but then you should run the bio for the radiation proc, not the grav. Run the dyson stuff if you run a grav torp with an energy weapon set.
    Nessia (KDF Sci)
    IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
  • mandoknight89mandoknight89 Member Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    The new thing isnt a great console for Phasers or Disruptors, but it is better than nothing if you must run a photon torp... but then you should run the bio for the radiation proc, not the grav. Run the dyson stuff if you run a grav torp with an energy weapon set.

    The 2-piece set bonus makes it worth it, since it's the only source of set-based Phaser damage, and in general +7% "bonus" damage >> +20% "strength" damage, and then if you're running Photon torps on top of that, you're also getting the photon torp bonus, and the Heavy Turret gets the Radiation bonus on its proc (since it is a Bio-Molecular weapon itself).
  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,301 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Again, the new stuff is great for Undine. Think of the new bio torps as plasmas for getting to hull without deshielding. It's the same, for the most part.

    The radiation buff in the console exceeds the buff for phaser/disruptors, so i slot the Harghpeng as well. I also use bio mines.

    The new thing isnt a great console for Phasers or Disruptors, but it is better than nothing if you must run a photon torp... but then you should run the bio for the radiation proc, not the grav. Run the dyson stuff if you run a grav torp with an energy weapon set.

    Best way to think of the new bio torpedoes is as a Harpeng light which uses torpedo abilities.

    Rapid rate of fire, hits like a truck in set and has after effect like the harpeng.
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • maelwy5maelwy5 Member Posts: 593 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    in general +7% "bonus" damage >> +20% "strength" damage

    That.

    Basically, if you're running Phasers/Disruptors and want a Torpedo, it's going to be hard not to justify using a Gravimetric Photon Launcher + a Proton Particle Stabilizer, plus the Counter-Command Energy Relay Tac Console and either the Heavy Phaser Turret or Photon Launcher (though few builds use more than one launcher, it can make sense with Projectile Cooldown Reduction DOFFs).

    With Bonus points if you can work in a two-piece proc from the Honor Guard or Adapted MACO sets.

    you should run the bio for the radiation proc, not the grav

    I'd agree if all buffs were equal.

    Taken as separate entities, the Undine Launcher is going to be better DPS than the Gravimetric one.

    The problem is that you can very easily get an additional +23% Photon damage from the Protonic Arsenal set bonus if you run with a Gravimetric Torp Launcher. And that EXTRA bonus might well make the Gravimetric Launcher more attractive.

    If you drop the Gravimetric Torp Launcher and take the Undine one instead, your only way of getting that set bonus is to take an Experimental Proton Weapon... and few builds outside of specific Small Craft setups will find that tradeoff worth it: Proton weaponry is rare, as are consoles that buff it.
    [ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I think the grav torpedo has the best TS and the EBMT has the best HY. If you ran both you could GW + TS with grav torpedo + HY with EBMT for some awesome damage.
  • catliketypingcatliketyping Member Posts: 611
    edited May 2014
    Alright, forgot the 2-piece buff on the grav/dyson set. That does make it more interesting, but you still have to clear console space or rep up to the turret (tier 4?).

    Plus, i am just leery of depending on the grav torpedo. I use it, but it seems like a prime candidate for a nerf. I am trying to reduce my own build dependence on it.
    Nessia (KDF Sci)
    IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
  • catliketypingcatliketyping Member Posts: 611
    edited May 2014
    The OP was about the torps, assuming torpedo boat.

    I have run in my B'rel
    Fore:
    Grav, Biometric, Enhanced Biometric, Experimental Proton (strictly for the bonuses to crit)

    Aft:
    Some combo of Nukara mines, bio mines, hargh'peng

    Consoles:
    Kinetic resist, Dyson/proton, rule 62
    Borg, gravitron x2
    Photon tac consoles plus the new one

    This has done decently. Is it worth taking off the Transphasics? I only use this in Undine space. Transphasic setups seem more reliable otherwise.
    Nessia (KDF Sci)
    IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
  • seanhazz1seanhazz1 Member Posts: 54
    edited May 2014
    I've been trying out the Dyson protonic set and the undine weapon sets in tandem (minus the turret), running the proton wep on the rear with the grav torp + KCB , and the bio torp in front with the quads (love the look) +2x DHC. I plan on eventually replacing the KCB with the bio turret when I finish grinding it out, to take advantage of my phaser consoles.

    Those torps hit REALLY hard (also specced into torps), I'd imagine that a T'varo Torp boat with the proper build using both proton sets could pack a serious punch.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    The new undine rep stuff "might" make an all-photon torpedo boat deal more damage than an all quantum or all transphasic torpedo boat (I'm guessing that is what you mean by "viable"), but I can't say for sure until I finish grinding and can find out for myself.

    I tried making a super photon torpedo boat earlier this year with the gravimetric torpedo and consoles from the Dyson rep but it still lacked the devastating power of my quantum torpedo builds.

    Right now, my biggest damage dealer is an escort running two tetryon heavy cannons (to weaken shields) and all the other weapons are quantum torps. Ships go BOOM fast unless they know how to tank and are ready to pop Miracle Worker and/or have shields specifically designed to resist tetryon shield bleed.

    Anyway, I'm sticking with Quantum until I can test out the new Undine rep gear.

    For clarification, trying to boost your Dyson Grav Torp with Dyson Rep Consoles is not effective.

    First, the +Photon Dmg buff from the Dyson Consoles is not as high as a dedicated Photon TAC Console.

    Secondly, the Dyson Consoles split the total dmg buff between the regular dmg type and Proton dmg.

    The Dyson Grav Torp does not deal Proton dmg, so the gains from using Dyson TAC Consoles for the sole purpose of boosting the weapon is wasteful.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • kapla1755kapla1755 Member Posts: 1,249
    edited May 2014
    Does the new undine console boast the radiation damage from the Hargh'peng?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    You are not making that much of a clarification.

    There are two types of proton damage, proton projectile that are torpedoes and mines and proton weapon that is beams, turrets and cannons.

    The Gravimetric Photon Torpedo Launcher does kinetic damage but what one is looking for a photon build is actually Protonic Arsenal set since it raises crit severity and crit chance with Photon projectiles.

    There are no Proton torpedoes or mines (projectile weapons). There aren't even any projectiles that proc Proton dmg.

    Also, I think you're mixing up the console for the Protonic Arsenal for the Dyson TAC Consoles you get for T5. The TAC Consoles, for the sole purpose of boosting Photon damage or even the Dyson Grav Torp itself, is not efficient. You're better off buying a cheap, obsolete Photon tac console off the exchange. The other value that makes the Dyson Grav Torp hit so hard in PVE is Particle Generators Skill, which the Dyson TAC Consoles do not reinforce.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,301 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    kapla1755 wrote: »
    Does the new undine console boast the radiation damage from the Hargh'peng?

    That is actually an interesting question and i'd like to find out.
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    The OP was about the torps, assuming torpedo boat.

    I have run in my B'rel
    Fore:
    Grav, Biometric, Enhanced Biometric, Experimental Proton (strictly for the bonuses to crit)

    Aft:
    Some combo of Nukara mines, bio mines, hargh'peng

    Consoles:
    Kinetic resist, Dyson/proton, rule 62
    Borg, gravitron x2
    Photon tac consoles plus the new one

    This has done decently. Is it worth taking off the Transphasics? I only use this in Undine space. Transphasic setups seem more reliable otherwise.

    Now we are getting somewhere. Were you able to get the undine deflector and other undine parts beyond the tac console loaded too?

    Catliketyping, I've seen your B'Rel in action, so I respect your opinion on this.

    I'm trying to digest what I can about this new set and I had a thought that with the dyson gravimetric photon damage bonus AND the photon damage bonus from the undine stuff, that it might make a photon set an alternative to the tried and true transphasic setups. It's a lot of stuff to get from the rep system if it is.
  • maelwy5maelwy5 Member Posts: 593 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    ... Are you joking?

    No, they're not.

    You're getting your terminology confused here:
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    There are two types of proton damage, proton projectile that are torpedoes and mines and proton weapon that is beams, turrets and cannons.

    There is a type of Energy Weapon that deals Proton Damage.
    Some Torpedos and Mines deal Photon Damage.


    The two are not identical.

    Only the Proton Particle Stabilizer and Auto Targeting Modules boost Proton damage.
    The New Undine Console, the Protonic Arsenal set bonus and a bunch of other sources boost Photon damage.

    Clearer? :)
    [ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,165 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    ryakidrys wrote: »
    I see that there is an undine deflector that enhances torpedo/ photon damage, a new tactical console and biomolcular photon projectile weapons. I was wondering if I should work toward that equipment or not.
    Do all of the new undine things enable making a good photon projectile build?

    If anyone has the set already, what is your impression of it?

    Thanks.

    The new tactical console is bad for Photon builds as it gives less damage and less crit that fleet tac consoles. The deflector is nice.
  • maelwy5maelwy5 Member Posts: 593 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    The new tactical console is bad for Photon builds as it gives less damage and less crit that fleet tac consoles. The deflector is nice.

    It's a little less Photon Damage (26.2% compared to 31.9%) , but it adds 26.2% Radiation Damage, which can make it more attractive if you're using the Undine or Hargh'peng.

    (And if you're replacing a Disruptor or Phaser Tac Console and by replacing it you pickup the 2-set bonus, it's technically better all round- the only build I'm struggling with taking it on now is a DHC + Photon Recluse which only has two Tac Console slots and already has the Undine 2-set bonus!) :D
    [ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
  • dcpuserdcpuser Member Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    maelwy5 wrote: »
    It's a little less Photon Damage (26.2% compared to 31.9%) , but it adds 26.2% Radiation Damage, which can make it more attractive if you're using the Undine or Hargh'peng.

    (And if you're replacing a Disruptor or Phaser Tac Console and by replacing it you pickup the 2-set bonus, it's technically better all round- the only build I'm struggling with taking it on now is a DHC + Photon Recluse which only has two Tac Console slots and already has the Undine 2-set bonus!) :D

    This also depends the type of tac console you're giving up because if you have Fleet that would also give up the extra CrtD or CrtH on top of the damage boost difference. Either way yeah more variety and probably just as viable but whether it's "optimal" is something else.
  • catliketypingcatliketyping Member Posts: 611
    edited May 2014
    Having gone through a few rounds of Undine space with these new torpedos, OMG. They absolutely shred Undine. You can vaporize the small Undine in a single TS volley. I don't know if it's bugged or what, but it seems to all go through the shielding or something. Or maybe it's one of those overload things like where NPCs 100% blow through your shields on a TS volley, and then vaporize your hull.
    ryakidrys wrote: »
    Now we are getting somewhere. Were you able to get the undine deflector and other undine parts beyond the tac console loaded too?

    I just came off of Crystalline Catastrophe (Elite) with that setup. It's funny to see all the CRITICAL spam.

    I think I got 3rd place once with the Photon/Bio setup, but I can pretty consistently get 3rd or better with my Transphasics. Maybe it's practice, but I think the Breen Cluster strikes do make a big DPS difference. I never parse what I do, though.

    I also did ISE. Spamming Gravimetrics is part of ISE, I think. So the switch from Transphasic to Photon/Grav/Bio isn't that big a leap. I miss my big Breen Cluster strikes. On the other hand, I see so many more CRITICAL spams.

    And the THY works differently on the Enhanced Biometric versus the regular Biometric Torpedos. The standard Bio torps work as expected (a couple buffed torpedos on a single target). The Enhanced Bio torp throws off a non-targetable single torpedo that explodes in a giant green flash... but I haven't caught myself with an AOE strike (like I have when I Critically Flanked myself on a HY Gravimetric :D), so I don't think it does AOE like a HY Gravimetric or Tricobalt. I just don't know what it does since there's nothing on the Info screen for the Enhanced Bio torp.

    I don't know if the Crit spam works on all the pieces, though, which is a factor. Gravimetric Rift is Exotic, and Biometric DOT is Radiation... and neither of those is Photon, which is the thing that gets modified by the Dyson set.

    There's 2 sets with the Undine stuff. The deflector/shield/engine/warp core set, and the torpedo/tac console/uni console/turret set. I have 3 of the weapon set (torpedo, tac console, uni console)... but it does nothing for a torpedo boat.

    I just got the Deflector... and it does nothing for Photon damage... honestly, it seems like a decent Disruptor/Biometric decloaking set, but it won't trump my KHG for the Biometric torpedo boat. The green glow off the Deflector is kind of funny, though :D

    So... I guess it's viable in general use. I think my Transphasics still feels heavier, especially with Shearing.

    Honestly, I've been trying to get more ground stuff because my KHG Mk12 ground set is boring me :P I hate that darn Grenade Launcher thing... I guess it's useful against non-moving V.Rexes, though.
    Nessia (KDF Sci)
    IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
  • maelwy5maelwy5 Member Posts: 593 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Honestly, I've been trying to get more ground stuff because my KHG Mk12 ground set is boring me :P I hate that darn Grenade Launcher thing... I guess it's useful against non-moving V.Rexes, though.

    The Undine Ground set looks brilliant too actually. Or at least the Shield + Weapon combination... I'm eyeing that plus an Omega Armor, then whatever other Weapon I'm in the mood for (even a non-set version!)... ;)
    [ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
  • catliketypingcatliketyping Member Posts: 611
    edited May 2014
    Ok, got 3rd on Crystalline (Elite) with the setup. I moved my Hargh'Peng from Aft to Fore, to act as the follow-on to the Torp Spread or HY.

    So, Fore:
    Gravimetric, Hargh'Peng, Enhanced Bio-Molecular, Experimental Proton Weapon

    Aft:
    Bio-Molecular Mines, Bio-Molecular Torpedo

    If I had put on Kinetic Shearing, maybe I could have done better. :rolleyes:
    I'm just jumping between my Hoh'sus & B'rel, and I forget to swap Traits between my setups. Voth are just annoying when you are running a cloaked ship.

    I'll have to put some time into my Norgh Next.
    maelwy5 wrote: »
    The Undine Ground set looks brilliant too actually. Or at least the Shield + Weapon combination... I'm eyeing that plus an Omega Armor, then whatever other Weapon I'm in the mood for (even a non-set version!)... ;)

    I'm using the rainbow Nukara lightsaber & the Nukara shield right now, plus an Omega Armor. Still deciding on my ranged weapon, but I always liked Sniper Rifles & Dual Pistols the most, even if they might not be the most optimal.
    Nessia (KDF Sci)
    IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
  • maelwy5maelwy5 Member Posts: 593 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I'm using the rainbow Nukara lightsaber & the Nukara shield right now, plus an Omega Armor. Still deciding on my ranged weapon, but I always liked Sniper Rifles & Dual Pistols the most, even if they might not be the most optimal.

    On my Sci Captains I like the way the KHG/AMACO Secondary Fire interacts with Tachyon Harmonic, but I know that combo can be a little slow and not for everyone.

    I'm pretty much decided on the S.Harm Shield and Weapon, plus the Undine Armor + Weapon for Melee; but for ranged I'm finding it a bit more complicated.

    Technically the best DPS-booting Setup would be to combine the Omega Armor and the Undine Kit/Weapon, and the Crystalline Harmonics Shield + Weapon... but there are 3 downsides: Firstly the Undine 2-set bonus only directly boosts Phaser/Disruptor damage and the CH Weapon deals "Cold". Secondly you'd gain no Root or Knockback Protection; and finally you'd be forced to use the Undine Kit which has a 3x Willpower modifier - usually not ideal. But the Crystalline set covers Expose and the Undine Exploit... and the sheer amount of +Damage buffs might make it a viable option.

    A more balanced option might be to take a Shield + Weapon combo from one of the sets that use a Phaser or Disruptor Weapon - AMACO or MACO (or HG and AHG). That'd mean both weapons were affected by the Undine 2-set bonus and grant you Root/KB Protection and a decent 2-set clickable ability... but you'd still be locked into using the Undine Kit. I'm leaning towards this option for my Tac, since the AMACO set gives a nice Clicky Heal/Cleanse.

    Finally, there's the option to just take the Undine Shield + Weapon, and the Omega Armor; and then take a random Phaser/Disruptor-typed weapon (Nanite Disruptor perhaps?). The Undine Shield is one of the best ones available, granting a Reflect Proc, Psi resistance and Stun protecion on top of Root/KB protection... it just doesn't reduce energy damage to shields. That combo would lose you any additional 2-set bonus, but you'd be able to pick a weapon and kit of your choice... :P
    [ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,165 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I just got the Deflector... and it does nothing for Photon damage... honestly, it seems like a decent Disruptor/Biometric decloaking set, but it won't trump my KHG for the Biometric torpedo boat. The green glow off the Deflector is kind of funny, though :D
    Use the Deflector with the KHG set. There is no reason to give up the KHG damage boost when you get the deflector damage boost.
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