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Energy levels when firing

jenkaljenkal Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited May 2014 in The Academy
I have been playing for 2 years but there's something I never understood and that is how different weapons influence weapon power. I know that the higher the power level, the higher the damage, right? But what if I were to put 5 quad cannon heavy cannons on an Avenger Battle Cruiser... Would I have problems with energy weapons? Would it be better to put in, let's say, dual heavy cannons? How does all that work? Is it explained or graphed anywhere?
Post edited by jenkal on

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  • dahminusdahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    First shot is full power, subsequent shot is -power of fire drained and that continues in a cycle until the recharge phase.

    So let's say you start at 100 and all weapons drain 10 energy each shot.

    First shot is at 100
    Second shot is 90
    Third shot is 80
    Fourth shot is 70
    Fifth shot is 60

    Then the recharge happens and your back at 100

    Eps transfer, the pulse of weapons and some powers will influence this. But that's the basics of it
    Chive on and prosper, eh?

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  • jenkaljenkal Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    So on the basis of this, would you recommend heavy cannons compared to normal cannons?
  • fatman592fatman592 Member Posts: 1,207 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Dual heavy cannons are always the superior choice (for PvE) because they have innate critical severity. Most cannon drain can be mitigated by using the Kinetic Cutting Beam and the Assimilated Console for Omega Weapon Amplifier. This ability procs very often for me, and my weapon power never drops below 120 (though this is with Leech too) during rapid fire cycles.

    Though the biggest drain sources tend to hit beam builds more. Either broadsiding with more weapons, or beam overloads draining huge amounts of power.

    For maximum energy weapon damage, power overcapping is the key.
  • bendalekbendalek Member Posts: 1,781 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    jenkal wrote: »
    So on the basis of this, would you recommend heavy cannons compared to normal cannons?

    It's a compromise with all ... Power Drain vs DPV/DPS vs Firing Arc ...

    Firing arc comes into it, because if more of your weapons are firing more often (as with beam boat broadsides) you have to wait longer for the power to cycle through the firing cycle. So with this, Cannons do more "Spike" damage, and can recover power while you are repositioning, where as Beam weapons do more "pressure' damage, the first volley being higher, then subsequent volleys lowering until the end of the cycle.

    Single Cannons have a good firing arc, but they have lower damage output and are -10 power.

    Dual Beam Banks, have a smaller arc, but higher damage output, however they drain the same amount of power (-10) as Single Cannons, so they are usually preferred.

    Dual Cannons and Dual Heavy Cannons have the smallest arc and the highest damage, plus they have a built in Critical Severity Bonus, however they also use the most power ...


    Dual Heavy Cannons are preferred, simply because they have the same power/arc requirements as Dual cannons, but do more damage.


    So if you have a power surplus (125+) on a reasonably fast turning ship, then Dual Heavy Cannons are probably the way to go.

    If you don't have 125+ power (Romulans find it harder, though not impossible to achieve this) then Dual Beam Banks offer then best bang for your power buck.
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  • ovinspaceovinspace Member Posts: 310
    edited April 2014
    Generally the quads are not that great and you can only fit one set anyway.
  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,358 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    ovinspace wrote: »
    Generally the quads are not that great and you can only fit one set anyway.

    Yes, they drain 10 weapon & 10 engine power. Not that missing 10 engine power is much of a problem most of the time. But still those things are sucking 20 energy and not doing anywhere close to 2x the damage.
  • bendalekbendalek Member Posts: 1,781 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Yes, they drain 10 weapon & 10 engine power. Not that missing 10 engine power is much of a problem most of the time. But still those things are sucking 20 energy and not doing anywhere close to 2x the damage.

    Yeah, like single cannons, they are just a big "fail" ...

    Cryptic should do away with Single Cannons altogether, plus:

    Respec the standard Dual Cannons to be what singles are now (-Power/Arc/Damage) and make the Quads unique Items, either like the DSD Proton Cannons (i.e an extra non removable weapon) OR make them as versatile as the Dyson Rep Experimental Proton Weapon (i.e they can benefit form either CSV and/or BO.)

    And leave DHC's as they currently are.
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  • assimilatedktarassimilatedktar Member Posts: 1,708 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    bendalek wrote: »
    Yeah, like single cannons, they are just a big "fail" ...

    Cryptic should do away with Single Cannons altogether, plus:

    Single cannons can be decent on ships that can't slot dual cannons and look badass on beaky Romulan ships. (I have a Romplas single cannon/turret build on a R'mor with 4 Embassy +Plas science consoles. :D)
    bendalek wrote: »
    Respec the standard Dual Cannons to be what singles are now (-Power/Arc/Damage)

    Do you have any idea how stupid dual cannons with a 180° fire arc would look?
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  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    You can make a viable single cannon build. I did it on my DD, 4 singles and 4 turrets all rapid firing with everything I could get boosting weapon power (including a sci seat with siphon). And, at close range, it was about as effective as a broadside beam build for dps but a lot more trouble due to the range requirement and sorta front facing approach. It worked, though, and was fine for a different PVE build. In the end I put 4 DBB on the front and fleet turn consoles, and that did more dps than either broadsides or single cannons.


    The reason single cannons are not popular is the dink-everything FAW beam array builds have a better aoe --- a 360 arc AND higher damage at longer ranges. Scatter fire is broken for cannons: it fires in a super narrow arc even if you equip all turrets it still fires like DHC.
  • jenkaljenkal Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    And what about the dual beam bank firing arc? it's 90° only, and the beam arrays are 250°, so doesn't that mean that you can't fire all weapons at the same time?
  • dahminusdahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    jenkal wrote: »
    And what about the dual beam bank firing arc? it's 90° only, and the beam arrays are 250°, so doesn't that mean that you can't fire all weapons at the same time?

    Yes...

    What you so is go all beam arrays, you will be a 360 degree disco ball with a target in front and a target behind you under the effects of bfaw.
    Chive on and prosper, eh?

    My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
  • edgecrysgeredgecrysger Member Posts: 2,740 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    jenkal wrote: »
    And what about the dual beam bank firing arc? it's 90° only, and the beam arrays are 250°, so doesn't that mean that you can't fire all weapons at the same time?

    I dont understand why people find so difficult to fire with weapons with 90º only. If you cant, you just need more piloting skills.. try to make an escort and learn how to use DHCs. Once you master that, you will not care anymore about tiny angles of fire.
  • dahminusdahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I dont understand why people find so difficult to fire with weapons with 90º only. If you cant, you just need more piloting skills.. try to make an escort and learn how to use DHCs. Once you master that, you will not care anymore about tiny angles of fire.

    Until you'd realize why it is the arc difference that allows beams to out dps cannons
    Chive on and prosper, eh?

    My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
  • jenkaljenkal Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I dont understand why people find so difficult to fire with weapons with 90º only. If you cant, you just need more piloting skills.. try to make an escort and learn how to use DHCs. Once you master that, you will not care anymore about tiny angles of fire.

    In my world 90+250 doesn't equal 360°, but 340°, so that should mean that if you have an enemy in front of you you can only shoot with the banks. And if you have the enemy on any other side you should only be able to shoot with the arrays. In other words... You are the sucky pilot here or the sucky mathematician... But a good pilot should notice that he's not firing all of his weapons, so probably both.
  • maelwy5maelwy5 Member Posts: 593 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    jenkal wrote: »
    I have been playing for 2 years but there's something I never understood and that is how different weapons influence weapon power. I know that the higher the power level, the higher the damage, right? But what if I were to put 5 quad cannon heavy cannons on an Avenger Battle Cruiser... Would I have problems with energy weapons? Would it be better to put in, let's say, dual heavy cannons? How does all that work? Is it explained or graphed anywhere?

    There are a few things to consider.

    The first is that Weapons Energy acts as a Multiplier bonus.

    How this actually interacts with other buffs is the subject of a very large number of posts, because of the convoluted way buff stacking works in STO.

    1. First you have a Weapon's Base damage,

    2. Then you have Weapons Power which multiplies the base damage by a certain amount.

    3. Then you have Skillpoints in various Categories, Tactical Consoles, most set bonuses and traits, etc. which all act upon the previous value.

    4. Then you have other buffs that act as ANOTHER multiplier on top of this (eg: Attack Pattern Alpha or the 2-piece Obelisk set bonus).

    5. Then you have a few other Damage Buffs that act as YET ANOTHER multiplier (rate of fire increases like Rapid Fire, Torpedo Spread, etc)

    6. Then you have Enemy Resistance Debuffs and Weapon Procs which apply at the point of impact, which can multiply everything yet again.


    And to make matters more complicated, certain abilities that affect damage output will be affected by Diminishing Returns.

    Further reading available here and here.

    - - - - -

    If we're just talking about Weapons Power:

    At a very basic level: If you are at 125 Weapons Power whenever you fire an energy weapon (Except for the Vesta Aux-based DHCs), then that weapon will get the maximum multiplier value possible from Weapons Power.

    The problem starts when you fire multiple energy weapons simultaneously, because each weapon after the first one will take some energy from your weapons system (Exception: Experimental Romulan Plasma Beam Array).

    Originally (a LONG time ago now) this taking of energy actually removed weapons power from your system and never gave it back. The result was that people needed to generate new weapons power faster than they could fire weapons to drain it. EPS consoles were highly prized in this era of STO. Currently, this taking of energy works slightly differently for Beams and Cannons... but both will reserve some weapons power when they start firing, taking it away from your system... and then that power back into the system again after they finish firing. The result of this is that EPS Consoles are no longer needed to counteract weapons fire because energy is no longer permanently lost.

    Beams "reserve" weapons power from whatever energy is currently in your weapons power system (displayed or otherwise), INCLUDING any energy over the 125 cap.

    Cannons "reserve" weapons power from whatever energy level is currently being shown by your weapons system, and IGNORE any overcap.

    (Further reading on this is available in various places, but summarized recently here)

    The actual AMOUNT of power reserved and the DURATION of the time it is reserved for differs from weapon type to weapon type, but it's usually somewhere around 8 - 12 power; and Dual Heavy Cannons are technically more efficient than Dual Cannons since they reserve power for half as long.

    During the weapon firing cycle (whenever the energy is reserved and you have less power in the system) you can technically still gain weapons power from other sources such as the Plasmonic Leech Console or the MACO shield proc. This fills your power back up again as your weapons are firing, and can end up being a substantial boost to DPS for Cannons in particular.

    - - - - -

    The upshot of all this is that for maximum energy damage output you should always try to push your energy weapons power up to at least 125.

    If you are running any Beams, then you should try to push it HIGHER than 125 (this is +10 power after your first weapon for every Beam, or +8 for the Kinetic Cutting Beam). After that, you can run either Plasmonic Leech or the MACO Shield (unfortunately they don't stack) in order to recover energy during the weapon firing cycle.

    The traditional weapons setup for an Escort in STO is usually going to be 4xDHCs or 3xDHCs and a Torp Fore, and 2x Turrets and a Kinetic Cutting Beam Aft... so the ideal Weapons Power setup for that build will be to try to hit 133 Weapons Power (via native settings or EPTW or whatever: 125 + 8 for the Cutting Beam) and then run either the Plasmonic Leech console or the MACO shield.

    As with almost everything in STO, there are exceptions: Torpedos and Mines are not affected by Weapons Power, and the Vesta Aux-DHCs and the Nukara Web Mine Launcher are affected by your Aux Power level :)
    [ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
  • doffingcomradedoffingcomrade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    jenkal wrote: »
    In my world 90+250 doesn't equal 360°, but 340°, so that should mean that if you have an enemy in front of you you can only shoot with the banks.
    That would be true if your enemies were all apparently tiny points, but as it turns out, it's possible to bring both such weapons on target if you do something like, say, park yourself at point blank range next to a large enemy: Your forward-90-degree weapons will be able to hit the enemy, while your rear weaponry can still fire at another part of the same enemy. I see this all the time in ISE, if I park myself inside the gateway ring, my DBBs can fire at the enemy while my rear Proton Weapon I normally just put there for the +CrtH will actually begin firing as well, and that's just a 180-degree weapon.
    maelwy5 wrote: »
    Beams "reserve" weapons power from whatever energy is currently in your weapons power system (displayed or otherwise), INCLUDING any energy over the 125 cap.

    Cannons "reserve" weapons power from whatever energy level is currently being shown by your weapons system, and IGNORE any overcap.
    This is wrong. Cannons DO use overcap, and they use it exactly the same way as beams do. It's just that their drain mechanics and firing cycles make their use of overcapping far less effective because they are already minimizing their damage losses.

    How it works: Let's say you have maxed out weapons, and are overcapping to 175.
    Your power levels are: 125 out of 175, because the maximum weapon power you can have is 125.
    You fire a gun, draining -10 power. Your power level is: 115 out of 165.
    At this point your EPS system begins to regenerate the power until you recover to 125 out of 165, hitting max power again. The more EPS you have, the faster this happens. THIS is why cannons seem to benefit little or not at all from overcapping: The firing cycle of a DHC is very short, and the drain is quickly removed, returning the power before your EPS systems get much time to work. Of course, this means that the next weapon fired is likely to encounter little or no drain as the power has already been returned, while with beams, the EPS systems must work hard to make sure there is some power recovered before the next shot is fired.

    You can see this when you fire an initial opening barrage, that causes all the guns to fire near simultaneously. No matter what you do, you'll see a quick dip in power. As the fire begins to stagger itself out due to crappy coding which happens to work conveniently in our favor, the drain stops being as visible if you have mucho EPS (or are using cannons), but if you are firing beams on TRIBBLE EPS, you'll see it, no matter HOW much you overcap. Overcapping and PTR must be used to together to achieve good results out of beams. Overcapping without PTR is basically useless, and PTR without any overcap to work with does nothing.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • maelwy5maelwy5 Member Posts: 593 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    This is wrong. Cannons DO use overcap, and they use it exactly the same way as beams do. It's just that their drain mechanics and firing cycles make their use of overcapping far less effective because they are already minimizing their damage losses.

    Provide linked proof please, because whilst the developer comment we've seen imply that this is the design intention behind weapons power, all the Various In Game Studies I've both performed personally and read prove otherwise.

    In fact, there's a whole thread asking for clarification if this is really how it's meant to work which has gone unanswered.
    Your power levels are: 125 out of 175, because the maximum weapon power you can have is 125.
    You fire a gun, draining -10 power. Your power level is: 115 out of 165.

    This is how it works for Cannons (Including DHCs and Turrets).
    NOT for beams.

    If you run high enough weapons power, firing beams will NEVER drop you below 125 during the firing cycle.
    Therein lies the discrepancy, and the problem.



    And regarding EPS mechanics, that's also very old information from back in the days prior to energy reservation.

    For a VERY long time now - see very explicit patch notes here - EPS systems have done absolutely nothing for energy recovery during weapons fire.

    The percentage of their firing cycle which Cannons reserve energy for is very short compared to Beams, and even shorter for DHCs - when beams fire simultaneously you can clearly see the power level dip and not recover until the first beam is finished firing - EPS systems do absolutely nothing for them.

    When you see your weapon energy levels drop down quickly and then spike back up; what you're actually witnessing is the high energy reservation/return rate inherent with the Cannon Firing cycle. If you're running equipment or using a skill that grants ongoing energy gain (such as the Plasmonic Leech console) then this acts independently of the weapon fire release/return mechanic and will fill your bar back up even faster.
    [ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
  • doffingcomradedoffingcomrade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    maelwy5 wrote: »
    Provide linked proof please
    Here.
    maelwy5 wrote: »
    If you run high enough weapons power, firing beams will NEVER drop you below 125 during the firing cycle.
    Therein lies the discrepancy, and the problem.
    Not a discrepancy at all. Two things to understand:
    1. The UI is kinda sluggish, and tends not to display small things well, so small spikes can pass unnoticed.
    2. It's very difficult to simultaneously discharge an entire barrage of beams at once, as the commands to fire all of those weapons tends to desync really quickly. Additionally, on an initial approach to target, it will not even be possible to fire all up-to-8 beams, as you will still be turning the ship to bring the rear-mounted guns to bear. Therefore, they will fire out of sync, drawing considerably reduced power. In order to achieve a synchronized barrage of all 8 beams at once, you need to intentionally hold fire until all beams have entered arc and then fire them all simultaneously. If you do this, and don't lag out, you'll see it. Especially if you have really bad PTR.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • maelwy5maelwy5 Member Posts: 593 Arc User
    edited May 2014

    ... that thread says exactly the same thing I just did (see USSUltimatum and VirusDancer's comments) except for one lone post at the very end which is essentially just a rant that provides nothing to back its claims up :confused:
    Not a discrepancy at all. Two things to understand:
    1. The UI is kinda sluggish, and tends not to display small things well, so small spikes can pass unnoticed.
    2. It's very difficult to simultaneously discharge an entire barrage of beams at once, as the commands to fire all of those weapons tends to desync really quickly. Additionally, on an initial approach to target, it will not even be possible to fire all up-to-8 beams, as you will still be turning the ship to bring the rear-mounted guns to bear. Therefore, they will fire out of sync, drawing considerably reduced power. In order to achieve a synchronized barrage of all 8 beams at once, you need to intentionally hold fire until all beams have entered arc and then fire them all simultaneously. If you do this, and don't lag out, you'll see it. Especially if you have really bad PTR.

    It's very straightforward to eliminate the lag and prove what I stated above.
    I've already done it ages ago here.

    I refer you to the bit titled "Step #2: Cannons."
    :)
    [ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
  • edgecrysgeredgecrysger Member Posts: 2,740 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    dahminus wrote: »
    Until you'd realize why it is the arc difference that allows beams to out dps cannons

    Dont think so. It doesnt matter the arc, just the distance. I checked it tons of times. So i say it again, i dont get it. And again beams will never out dps dual cannons and DHCS at distances between 0-5 km. NEVER. If you think so, well, as i said, you need more piloting skills lol.
  • doffingcomradedoffingcomrade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Dont think so. It doesnt matter the arc, just the distance. I checked it tons of times. So i say it again, i dont get it. And again beams will never out dps dual cannons and DHCS at distances between 0-5 km. NEVER. If you think so, well, as i said, you need more piloting skills lol.
    Assuming you are firing at 3 or more targets, which always stay between those ranges and always stay in arc, cannons will blow beams away every time.

    This pretty much never really happens in a furball, though. In a furball, you lose DPS when:
    1. The wrong target gets selected automatically and you end up plinking with turrets until you reselect something.
    2. Your enemies die and you have to reacquire new targets.
    3. Your enemies move out of arc.
    4. You never had that many enemies in arc at one time.

    All these factors tend to result in significant downtime that is very difficult to mitigate outside of "Turkeyshoot" scenarios like NWS, in which large numbers of enemies attack you head on and can be easily gathered into a killing field where you can hose them in gunfire until they all die.

    Beams, on the other hand, pick two targets, one of which will be your primary target if applicable in arc (otherwise random target), one of which will be a random other target that wasn't picked by the first one. Since beam arrays have a sweep of 250 degrees, it is not difficult to have at least two targets to your front, and two targets to your rear (which may be the same targets). Thus, beam arrays will nearly always be firing at something. This constant uptime often entirely compensates for:
    1. An inferior target-count multipler to DPS (only 2 instead of 3)
    2. An inferior base DPS per shot.
    3. Worse uptime on FAW vs. CSV.
    4. Unfriendly energy drain mechanics.
    5. Lower number of bullets fired compared to Cannons+Turrets which allows less use of per-bullet damage procs like DEM.

    There is, however, a catch: Time to kill with beam arrays, even with higher DPS, is often much longer than with cannons. CSV will drill the same consistent set of 3 targets until they die. FAW will drill one target, everything else in range takes random shots and the damage is thus diffused across everything on the field. Therefore, cannons will always outgun beams in both DPS and killing power in a turkeyshoot, but in a chaotic furball in which things are exploding left and right and enemies are everywhere, all around you, beams are going to win out in DPS. Whether or not you call having dozens of injured enemies everywhere vs. 3 or 4 dead ones an ultimate win or not, though, is a separate question. Stack enough ablation in this way, though, and everything dies pretty quickly anyway and with far less fuss than trying to chase down and gather your enemies one by one with cannons. But if your goal is a turkeyshoot, or you can turn it into one *cough* Gravwell *cough*, Cannons win.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • bendalekbendalek Member Posts: 1,781 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Dont think so. It doesnt matter the arc, just the distance. I checked it tons of times. So i say it again, i dont get it. And again beams will never out dps dual cannons and DHCS at distances between 0-5 km. NEVER. If you think so, well, as i said, you need more piloting skills lol.

    I think your making the same mistake, or perpetuating the same error as many others ... That is confusing DPV with DPS

    Damage Per Volley - DPV - The actual damage number generated by a single hit from a weapon.
    DHC's of course, have the highest damage rating per single shot, especially at their optimal firing distance, which is less than 5k's


    Damage Per Second
    - DPS - The TOTAL amount of damage from an arbitrary number of hits, over a given period of time.

    BA's and more importantly DBB's will have a higher value here, because not only are they able to fire more often, due to the wider firing arc, but they also have less damage loss over a wider range of distances ...

    SO YES! I'm afraid that "Beam Boats" CAN, and in fact, currently do, out DPS cannons.
    .........

    All such stuff aside though, suffice to say, that all one needs to remember is to get your power, particularity your Weapon Power, up as high as you can, whether through Sets/Cores/Consoles/Powers/Skills/Batteries/Bonuses, to be most effective in battle, no matter what weapons you are using.
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