Edit: Just for those who don't realize that a thread about retcons is about the story of the game: SPOILERS! GO AWAY!
Okay, first of all, I mostly love the new episodes. There are just a few points I'd like to bring up:
1) Why did you remove the only Q-like thing Q ever did? Now he's just making us jump through pointless hoops for pointless rewards. Yes, he's not "the" Q, but he could at least have matured a bit.
2) Who is steering the Iconian fake ships? If they are crewed by servants of the Iconians shouldn't the Undine realize that something is wrong? If they are running on remote (which would explain why the Undine tear through them like that) shouldn't they question why the alpha and beta quadrant species happily will gut each other in close combat but send remote-controlled ships into fluidic space. Okay, you depict the Undine as extremely full of themselves and it, but still....
3) No more diplomacy? In the old missions we discovered the Iconian attacks on the Undine while escorting a telepathically gifted diplomat into fluidic space. Now we do it while trying to destroy the Borg there in the hope that it will appease the Undine. Would now not be the right time to try to talk to the Undine and direct them to our Iconian friends instead of fighting them? I'm not saying that they would believe it, or make a difference between the Iconians and the rest, but shouldn't at least the attempt be made?
4) Cooper. Nice guy, really. Now we have the tiny problem that we played the missions in the wrong order, we saw the reveal that he's an Undine impostor before he got replaced. So maybe I'm a bit biased now, but.... "They [the Undine] were so strong and we are weak." The only thing missing would have been "We will perish!!!" Sorry, but that's the point where my captain would have had him nicely escorted to the sickbay by security where they would have scanned him down to the subatomic level. After that my first officer would have mind-melded with him. He's almost as bad an infiltrator as Zelle. And our captains just going along with it HURTSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. If you want to make our characters work with infiltrators make it so that we, the players, don't realize it.
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
What I want to know is why the Breen episodes are after the Borg / Undine episodes. The Breen stuff should follow the Cardasian / Mirror / Dominion stuff as the three Solanae FEs follow directly from the Borg / Undine episodes it would make more story sense to switch the Breen and Borg / Undine stuff around to improve the flow.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
It's also a little hard to believe that a race of shapeshifting telepathic aliens with imposters at every level of every alpha quadrant government haven't yet figured out that we are being framed by the Iconians.
It was a little funny to see the fake ships and my bridge officer exclaim that the iconians must be behind it, and then Cooper tell us that we should have never invaded fluidic space... in the same mission.
I'm probably one of rare folks that's glad that Q's mission was removed.
And new reason why Undine are attacking is even flimsier than first one. It's just bad...they should stick to "Voyager's peace offer was refused by brass, purging efforts continue after lunch break. The weak shall perish.".
1) Why did you remove the only Q-like thing Q ever did? Now he's just making us jump through pointless hoops for pointless rewards. Yes, he's not "the" Q, but he could at least have matured a bit.
According to the devs they want to bring that one back with John de Lancie-Q and have a guest appearance with Avery Brooks as The Sisko. Which, YAY!
2) Who is steering the Iconian fake ships? If they are crewed by servants of the Iconians shouldn't the Undine realize that something is wrong? If they are running on remote (which would explain why the Undine tear through them like that) shouldn't they question why the alpha and beta quadrant species happily will gut each other in close combat but send remote-controlled ships into fluidic space. Okay, you depict the Undine as extremely full of themselves and it, but still....
See "Cryptic is sloppy." Ref: The Voth Fortress-sized plot hole in "A Step Between Stars".
3) No more diplomacy? In the old missions we discovered the Iconian attacks on the Undine while escorting a telepathically gifted diplomat into fluidic space. Now we do it while trying to destroy the Borg there in the hope that it will appease the Undine. Would now not be the right time to try to talk to the Undine and direct them to our Iconian friends instead of fighting them? I'm not saying that they would believe it, or make a difference between the Iconians and the rest, but shouldn't at least the attempt be made?
Agreed. We should be at least yelling something like "Yo, take a look at what the attackers are made of!" as we leave.
4) Cooper. Nice guy, really. Now we have the tiny problem that we played the missions in the wrong order, we saw the reveal that he's an Undine impostor before he got replaced. So maybe I'm a bit biased now, but.... "They [the Undine] were so strong and we are weak." The only thing missing would have been "We will perish!!!" Sorry, but that's the point where my captain would have had him nicely escorted to the sickbay by security where they would have scanned him down to the subatomic level. After that my first officer would have mind-melded with him. He's almost as bad an infiltrator as Zelle. And our captains just going along with it HURTSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. If you want to make our characters work with infiltrators make it so that we, the players, don't realize it.
Yes. Any plotline that relies on the player character to be an incompetent is inherently wrong IMHO.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
It's also a little hard to believe that a race of shapeshifting telepathic aliens with imposters at every level of every alpha quadrant government haven't yet figured out that we are being framed by the Iconians.
It was a little funny to see the fake ships and my bridge officer exclaim that the iconians must be behind it, and then Cooper tell us that we should have never invaded fluidic space... in the same mission.
I believe my first thought was "Man, the Undine are idiots."
All these Starfleet officers talking about being framed by the Iconians, and the Undine infiltrators don't seem to notice. They're too busy giving crafting tutorials.
I believe my first thought was "Man, the Undine are idiots."
All these Starfleet officers talking about being framed by the Iconians, and the Undine infiltrators don't seem to notice. They're too busy giving crafting tutorials.
Okay, first of all, I mostly love the new episodes. There are just a few points I'd like to bring up: (...)
Basically the problem boils down to "Everyone needs to be an incompetent idiot in order for STOs storyline to work in the first place". I mean our characters need to be told by captain "this is" kurland to not touch the buirning plasma streams, or else ouchy - what do you expect?
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Actually the Undine are not idiots, they simply just don't care.
All that is relevant to them is that incursions are being made into their space from our Galaxy.
They don't really care who or why.
The Borg made the Undine, or rather Species 8472, aware of the existance of our realm, of which's very existance they believe is a threat to them.
Which is why they intend to end that threat by destroying ALL life in the galaxy.
It does not matter wether or not the Iconians are behind anything or not, they are residents of our galaxy, just like the rest of us, its all the same to the Undine.
The only thing the Iconians "false flag" operations really achieved was in effect directing Undine's attention at the Alpha and Beta quadrant powers.
Love what cryptic did with the Borg undine story.
My issue is that it does ruin the immersion because it was one of my favourite early story mission to begin with.
I remember it was I think the first kdf story I think. I remember saving the diplomat from the odd undine prison.
I remember the mind reader coral reef head person that we saved from undine space.
I remember finding the gateway on the undine reef.
All that was awesome.
All the newer stuff is awesome.
But it is hard to forget.
Please stop changing old episodes!!!! I will give you a million dilithium that I have nothing to spend on!!!
Love what cryptic did with the Borg undine story.
My issue is that it does ruin the immersion because it was one of my favourite early story mission to begin with.
I remember it was I think the first kdf story I think. I remember saving the diplomat from the odd undine prison.
I remember the mind reader coral reef head person that we saved from undine space.
I remember finding the gateway on the undine reef.
All that was awesome.
All the newer stuff is awesome.
But it is hard to forget.
Please stop changing old episodes!!!! I will give you a million dilithium that I have nothing to spend on!!!
Have you seen the new interior of the cube in 4447? O_O!!!! SO MUCH AWESOME!!!!!
Actually the Undine are not idiots, they simply just don't care.[/url]QFT, they're egomaniacal jerks.... they don't care about others and will use any flimsy pretext to go to war.
Comments
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
It was a little funny to see the fake ships and my bridge officer exclaim that the iconians must be behind it, and then Cooper tell us that we should have never invaded fluidic space... in the same mission.
Live Long And Suck It. - Wil Weaton
And new reason why Undine are attacking is even flimsier than first one. It's just bad...they should stick to "Voyager's peace offer was refused by brass, purging efforts continue after lunch break. The weak shall perish.".
See "Cryptic is sloppy." Ref: The Voth Fortress-sized plot hole in "A Step Between Stars".
Agreed. We should be at least yelling something like "Yo, take a look at what the attackers are made of!" as we leave.
Yes. Any plotline that relies on the player character to be an incompetent is inherently wrong IMHO.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I believe my first thought was "Man, the Undine are idiots."
All these Starfleet officers talking about being framed by the Iconians, and the Undine infiltrators don't seem to notice. They're too busy giving crafting tutorials.
Now we know what Crafting was killed off
E'GENN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Basically the problem boils down to "Everyone needs to be an incompetent idiot in order for STOs storyline to work in the first place". I mean our characters need to be told by captain "this is" kurland to not touch the buirning plasma streams, or else ouchy - what do you expect?
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
All that is relevant to them is that incursions are being made into their space from our Galaxy.
They don't really care who or why.
The Borg made the Undine, or rather Species 8472, aware of the existance of our realm, of which's very existance they believe is a threat to them.
Which is why they intend to end that threat by destroying ALL life in the galaxy.
It does not matter wether or not the Iconians are behind anything or not, they are residents of our galaxy, just like the rest of us, its all the same to the Undine.
The only thing the Iconians "false flag" operations really achieved was in effect directing Undine's attention at the Alpha and Beta quadrant powers.
My issue is that it does ruin the immersion because it was one of my favourite early story mission to begin with.
I remember it was I think the first kdf story I think. I remember saving the diplomat from the odd undine prison.
I remember the mind reader coral reef head person that we saved from undine space.
I remember finding the gateway on the undine reef.
All that was awesome.
All the newer stuff is awesome.
But it is hard to forget.
Please stop changing old episodes!!!! I will give you a million dilithium that I have nothing to spend on!!!
My character Tsin'xing