test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Using cannons incorrectly?

vaklovaklo Member Posts: 74 Arc User
edited April 2014 in The Academy
I am rank Captain with the early Defiant loaded with phaser beam arrays. I've read that cannons are better so I get one that is similar to what I already have and notice the following:

1) The reduced arc means I have to face forward most of the time.

2) If I only expose one shield when playing missions at Advanced difficulty, it will collapse even with me clicking the forward shield numerous times.

3) It doesn't fire as often because I need to turn to stay alive. So the higher DPS is effectively lowered.

So, what am I doing wrong? Is there another way to keep the forward shield up? Should I stick with single cannons instead of dual?
Post edited by vaklo on

Comments

  • kintishokintisho Member Posts: 1,040 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    1: Cannon rapid fire from a BOff ability = useful cannons

    2: tactical team (another bridge officer power) will auto distribute shields (2x copies of this power)

    3: use the circle (redistribute shields) when no tact team available = much better
  • edgecrysgeredgecrysger Member Posts: 2,740 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    vaklo wrote: »
    I am rank Captain with the early Defiant loaded with phaser beam arrays. I've read that cannons are better so I get one that is similar to what I already have and notice the following:

    1) The reduced arc means I have to face forward most of the time.

    2) If I only expose one shield when playing missions at Advanced difficulty, it will collapse even with me clicking the forward shield numerous times.

    3) It doesn't fire as often because I need to turn to stay alive. So the higher DPS is effectively lowered.

    So, what am I doing wrong? Is there another way to keep the forward shield up? Should I stick with single cannons instead of dual?

    So basically, you want an invincible ship that fires continuously all the time with cannons, without any cooldown at all and be able to kill a ship while you are static just firing??

    lol.

    So yes, better weapons = less firing arc / you need to aim better. Universal rule.

    If you dont have a decent shield, and you are taking damage all the time in that facing shield, yes it will go down really fast. No matter what ship you have. If you dont move, while shoting at your target, that will increase the speed of the shield going down. More movement = more defense and more hard is for your enemy to hit you.

    The Defiant is really fast. Whats the problem with turning around?? dude you can just turn around in about 3 seconds... i dont see the problem there. Make a run, hit your enemy, turn around hit it again.. and so on. I think you just dont know how to use escorts at all.. you also have weapons to put in your back.. if you want use turrets if you feel so lazy to use other weapons..

    Or maybe that is not your class. Since your play style seem to be , remain static in place and firing only looking at your target, you should change to a carrier or a really tanking ship, liike the odyssey lol.
  • dunmovyndunmovyn Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    You can use a macro that redistributes your shields each time you press the fire button. This can also be used to fire off skills with short durations and cool times, like TAC team. It helps a lot.

    See the Hilbert Guide.
  • edgecrysgeredgecrysger Member Posts: 2,740 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    dunmovyn wrote: »
    You can use a macro that redistributes your shields each time you press the fire button. This can also be used to fire off skills with short durations and cool times, like TAC team. It helps a lot.

    See the Hilbert Guide.

    This makes no sense at all. Once you press the arrow key to redirect your shield strenght, it grants you that power up for the rest of the fight, until you use other skill or until you re-distribute again the shield power. I mean, for skills it is a good advise, but for distributing shield power.. it isnt. Besides, i assume the enemy is moving, so unless you stuck facing your enemy all the time with the same shield facing, that option will be useless.

    I mean, the only problem here is to press the key to re distribute shield facing. thats all. Well if that is too complicated, well i suposse a macro will be fine.. but, seriously? lol.
  • demonwolf1975demonwolf1975 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    This makes no sense at all. Once you press the arrow key to redirect your shield strenght, it grants you that power up for the rest of the fight or until you re-distribute again the shield power. I mean, for skills it is a good advise, but for distributing shield power.. it isnt. Besides, i assume the enemy is moving, so unless you stuck facing your enemy all the time with the same shield facing, that option will be useless.

    I mean, the only problem here is to press the key to re distribute shield facing. thats all. Well if that is too complicated, well i suposse a macro will be fine.. but, seriously? lol.

    no it dosent it only lasts for 2-4 sic then it gos on C/D for 2-4 sic and you have to hit it agen it looks like that is one of your isues is your not spamming that kiy to keep it going but is you use 2 TT skilles you well all ways have one up and whant have to do that
  • empireofsteveempireofsteve Member Posts: 665 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    This makes no sense at all. Once you press the arrow key to redirect your shield strenght, it grants you that power up for the rest of the fight or until you re-distribute again the shield power. I mean, for skills it is a good advise, but for distributing shield power.. it isnt. Besides, i assume the enemy is moving, so unless you stuck facing your enemy all the time with the same shield facing, that option will be useless.

    I mean, the only problem here is to press the key to re distribute shield facing. thats all. Well if that is too complicated, well i suposse a macro will be fine.. but, seriously? lol.

    I am pretty sure that it redirects to that facing for a few seconds and that is all.
    NERF CANNONS - THEY NEED A 50% NERF
    CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
  • edgecrysgeredgecrysger Member Posts: 2,740 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I am pretty sure that it redirects to that facing for a few seconds and that is all.

    So, wait. You are telling me that if i click the up arrow key, it only redirects shield power for a few seconds????? i dont think so. Because if that is true, then it will be one of the dumbest fails of the game ive ever seen, since it is completely useless. Then, i see completely normal the use of a macro to do that.

    But i cant believe this is intended, when i redirect my shield facing, its logical to assume that i want it that way until i dont need it anymore. Not just for a few seconds like any other skill... its almost stupid lol.

    Well, now i understand why nobody uses the shield-redirection thingy.... lol, everything in cryptic has it explanation.
  • pet1e86pet1e86 Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    So, wait. You are telling me that if i click the up arrow key, it only redirects shield power for a few seconds????? i dont think so. Because if that is true, then it will be one of the dumbest fails of the game ive ever seen, since it is completely useless. Then, i see completely normal the use of a macro to do that.

    But i cant believe this is intended, when i redirect my shield facing, its logical to assume that i want it that way until i dont need it anymore. Not just for a few seconds like any other skill... its almost stupid lol.

    Well, now i understand why nobody uses the shield-redirection thingy.... lol, everything in cryptic has it explanation.

    So you come in here acting arragant as s**t acting like you know it all. dissing the op's post assuming you know what he wants, just asking for advice, YOU presuming he wants an i win button . then you are corrected and you still keep the same silly boy attitude and start blaming the game, how old are you ? 6? 7 tops ?
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I will be the nay-sayer to the hilbert guide. Its full of good info, but the macro is overthinking the issue for pve or casual play.

    Put the darn balance all shields skill on the space bar. No macro required, just put it on your bar and map that key. All the other stuff about a macro and putting specific skills in specific locations on a rotation is overkill outside of fast paced pvp (it does not hurt to use it, its just not required).

    Use tactical team, yes, and also use power to shields or science team etc.

    You can sit still and pound in an escort up to a point. That point depends on your gear and skill level and enemy of the moment, but it caps out at 1 boss, 2 or 3 elite hard hitters, or a small flotilla of trash. It simply cannot be done in pvp at all, and in pve, you cannot do it past some amount of incoming damage. I say this as a lazy park and shoot BOP driver. When my front shield finally does fail, I gotta move it or lose it -- and I am an engineer, so mine lasts longer than yours will, and my officers are better for survival, because my ship has better officer layout. So you will have to move it out before I do. Still, in normal mode or against "soft" trash, you can slow down rather than drive by. As you gain in experience you will learn when you can keep the cannons roaring at the target and when you need to do drive by bursts. Both techniques have a place, but you must use BOTH to really use the ship to its fullest.

    I agree, you may prefer a park and shoot boat instead of an escort. A heavy carrier or dpsish cruiser can do the yo-yo (move forward and reverse at the target, never stopping, but not really moving much either) and the enemy can't really hurt you unless it has vastly superior numbers or is a boss with a cheeze move like KHIT or CCE.

    Otherwise, you *are* correct. It is absolutely true that drive-by dps is lower than sit and pound dps. Single cannon wont help; its still 180 arc and more or less forward facing so more or less your front shield will take the most beating. Dual beam banks are valid on an escort, but same problem, just gives you more range and wider arc, with only a little dps loss. Again, all I can really say is you need to learn to fly the ship and when to slow down for dps and when to get the heck outta there before you get shot -- its not something to be taught, its something you get from experience behind the controls.
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    So, wait. You are telling me that if i click the up arrow key, it only redirects shield power for a few seconds????? i dont think so. Because if that is true, then it will be one of the dumbest fails of the game ive ever seen, since it is completely useless. Then, i see completely normal the use of a macro to do that.

    But i cant believe this is intended, when i redirect my shield facing, its logical to assume that i want it that way until i dont need it anymore. Not just for a few seconds like any other skill... its almost stupid lol.

    Well, now i understand why nobody uses the shield-redirection thingy.... lol, everything in cryptic has it explanation.

    The up arrow redirect is to be spammed. It transfers power, how much I think depends on your EPS score but its a fixed amount for your setup each click with a small cooldown. There is no Xwing style "shields forward" setting here.

    Its not useless at all. I have sat toe to toe with CCE and up arrow spam keeps me alive. Its annoying, but its not useless. Shield heals and tac team are your mainstays; uparrow and rebalance (even out) spam are "top off" skills used between officer skills.
  • fatman592fatman592 Member Posts: 1,207 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Don't bother clicking the redistribute shields button, Tactical Team is faster and better.

    I run ESTFs in the Captain level Defiant sometimes. Pretty much all you need is 2x emergency power abilities, 3x very rare/rare damage control engineers, two copies of Tactical Team and if playing on elite difficulty - never stop moving, defense is your friend.

    Cheap builds (PvE ONLY):

    Captain level Defiant
    Vice Admiral Mirror Advanced Escort
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    fatman592 wrote: »
    Don't bother clicking the redistribute shields button, Tactical Team is faster and better.

    I run ESTFs in the Captain level Defiant. Pretty much all you need is 2x emergency power abilities, 3x very rare/rare damage control engineers, two copies of Tactical Team and if playing on elite difficulty - never stop moving, defense is your friend.

    Cheap builds:

    Captain level Defiant
    Vice Admiral Mirror Advanced Escort

    Even 2 tac teams can have a cooldown between uses, it cant be kept up 100% of the time (unless that is possible with the right active officers & A2B?? trick?). The redistribution is for any gap between TT uses.

    Defense only matters when you are being shot at. There are times when it is safe to move slowly or even park. Not many of them, but if you can sit there doing full dps at point blank for even 10 seconds, its more dps than the nearly zero of a turn around loop move that was not needed.
  • edited April 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • edgecrysgeredgecrysger Member Posts: 2,740 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Nah, i almost never use the arrow keys system, maybe sometimes, 2% of the times, but most of the time i just use shield heal skills, but my point was that i never imagined it is working that way.. lol. Really.
  • edgecrysgeredgecrysger Member Posts: 2,740 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    noroblad wrote: »

    Defense only matters when you are being shot at. There are times when it is safe to move slowly or even park. Not many of them, but if you can sit there doing full dps at point blank for even 10 seconds, its more dps than the nearly zero of a turn around loop move that was not needed.

    This is what i do with my ships that can stay tanking for a few seconds. And it is the best way for carriers and other ships that can do tank. Honestly its much better strategy lol, than trying to move around using arc spams. Of course, this can be done only if you have cannons or if your target is not fully shielded. If you try to do this with beams.. or torps, well, you will not have enough time before you need to start moving.
  • fatman592fatman592 Member Posts: 1,207 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    noroblad wrote: »
    Even 2 tac teams can have a cooldown between uses, it cant be kept up 100% of the time (unless that is possible with the right active officers & A2B?? trick?). The redistribution is for any gap between TT uses.

    Defense only matters when you are being shot at. There are times when it is safe to move slowly or even park. Not many of them, but if you can sit there doing full dps at point blank for even 10 seconds, its more dps than the nearly zero of a turn around loop move that was not needed.

    Right, I shouldn't have said "never". But unless you're up against something like the Crystiline Entity - or something else that strips a facing like it's nothing - then it's really not something that you need to do. I never click a facing anymore due to using the Hilbert keybind, spoiled I guess.

    And yeah, if you're not generating the most threat you're not likely to be shot at. Even the basic VA build I posted (though on second though Voth AP is likely more expensive now, oh well) can tank enough to park and shoot without a problem. I mean, watch me in PvE content and I park and shoot all day.

    I was making a point more about general game mechanics: if you're in an escort and you find yourself dying, try moving. Even "rocking" the ship by moving forward and reverse will improve your defense value.
  • ghyudtghyudt Member Posts: 1,112 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Cannons do more damage, but at a cost. If you stay in one spot trying to pulverize your target, you die. This is an advantage beams have over cannons. I can keep moving and rotating my ship, presenting fresh shield facings while doing pretty much the same damage all the time, and cannons have such h a small firing arc that you have to do damage in bursts and strafing runs or risk severe damage.
  • dsarisdsaris Member Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    ghyudt wrote: »
    Cannons do more damage, but at a cost... I can keep moving and rotating my ship, presenting fresh shield facings while doing pretty much the same damage all the time...

    You've heard of Tac Team, right? Distributes your shields so the facing taking damage is always strongest... no need to rotate the ship. The only ships that really need to do strafing runs are the light escorts, BoPs, Defiants and such... everything else is pretty much tanky enough to park and pew pew until target is removed.
  • sirokksirokk Member Posts: 990 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Here's a sample build and description.

    Tactical Escort
    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6366291&postcount=58

    Although this is a level 50 version of the ship, some of the configuration can apply.

    Like suggested by previous posters, 2x TT1 (Tactical Team - Ensign), 2x CRF1 or 2 (Cannon Rapid fire, Ensign or Lt.) will help you a lot.

    Escorts have weaker hull and shields, so they MUST keep moving. So you must swoop in and fire and turn around and repeat, paying attention to shields and hull. Tactical Team automatically redistributes the shields to where they are being hit.

    Power levels, higher weapon power means higher DPS. Same with shields more power equals stronger shields. Engines = faster. You gotta find you balance between all of those.

    Basic Build Tutorial
    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6290121&postcount=13

    Power Tray
    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6288891&postcount=4

    For anything else... www.stowiki.com is the Wikipedia for STO.

    Help you found some useful info above. :)
    Star Trek Battles Channel - Play Star Trek like they did in the series!Avatar: pinterest-com/pin/14003448816884219Are you sure it isn't time for a "colorful metaphor"? --Spock in 'The Voyage Home'
    SCE ADVISORY NOTICE: Improper Impulse Engine maintenance can result in REAR THRUSTER LEAKAGE. ALWAYS have your work inspected by another qualified officer.
  • orondisorondis Member Posts: 1,447 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    vaklo wrote: »
    I am rank Captain with the early Defiant loaded with phaser beam arrays. I've read that cannons are better so I get one that is similar to what I already have and notice the following:

    1) The reduced arc means I have to face forward most of the time.


    2) If I only expose one shield when playing missions at Advanced difficulty, it will collapse even with me clicking the forward shield numerous times.

    That's what tactical team is for. Take two and cycle them, then you'll hardly need to worry about your shields again.
    3) It doesn't fire as often because I need to turn to stay alive. So the higher DPS is effectively lowered.

    So, what am I doing wrong? Is there another way to keep the forward shield up? Should I stick with single cannons instead of dual?

    For starters, make sure your using dual heavy cannons as dual cannons aren't as good.

    Firing arc wise there are two methods. Reverse (making sure not to set off the power drain) and sticking RCS consoles on your ship and making sure it can travel as fast as possible. Also attack pattern omega should really help with this (though once you've gotten used to turning, you should switch to attack pattern beta which is superior in PvE).
    Previously Alendiak
    Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
    Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
  • vaklovaklo Member Posts: 74 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Thanks for the useful replies, and I don't get the slam.

    Let me clarify.

    I'm trying to figure out how cannons are better than beam arrays in terms of DPS, if when using them I still need to turn out of their firing arcs such that they are sometimes not firing where the beam arrays nearly always are.

    Important qualifiers, I am using the level 30 defiant, and I play the majority of the quests not at Normal, but at Advanced difficulty.

    Summary, are cannons really higher DPS if I need to turn? I think the answer is no, but I will look into double up on tac team. I was already manually diverting power to the front and using a single tac team and emergency power to shield.

    Thanks again.
  • orondisorondis Member Posts: 1,447 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    vaklo wrote: »
    Thanks for the useful replies, and I don't get the slam.

    Let me clarify.

    I'm trying to figure out how cannons are better than beam arrays in terms of DPS, if when using them I still need to turn out of their firing arcs such that they are sometimes not firing where the beam arrays nearly always are.

    Important qualifiers, I am using the level 30 defiant, and I play the majority of the quests not at Normal, but at Advanced difficulty.

    Summary, are cannons really higher DPS if I need to turn? I think the answer is no, but I will look into double up on tac team. I was already manually diverting power to the front and using a single tac team and emergency power to shield.

    Thanks again.

    At lvl 30 cannons are easily the best. Once I get past level 10 all my toons switch to full dual heavy cannon and turret loadout for level grinding. It's only really at max level that things begin to get "complicated" in regard to beams vs cannons.

    At lvl 30 though a cannon rapid fire +attack pattern beta buffed ship with 4 dual heavy cannons and 2 turrets will rip through an npc in a second.

    Personally I've never had a problem with keeping an NPC in my firing arc, even on the slower turning battlecruisers.
    Previously Alendiak
    Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
    Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
  • rinksterrinkster Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    vaklo wrote: »
    I am rank Captain with the early Defiant loaded with phaser beam arrays. I've read that cannons are better so I get one that is similar to what I already have and notice the following:

    1) The reduced arc means I have to face forward most of the time.

    2) If I only expose one shield when playing missions at Advanced difficulty, it will collapse even with me clicking the forward shield numerous times.

    3) It doesn't fire as often because I need to turn to stay alive. So the higher DPS is effectively lowered.

    So, what am I doing wrong? Is there another way to keep the forward shield up? Should I stick with single cannons instead of dual?

    Two basic tasks with an escort running cannon.

    Do as much damage as possible.

    Stay alive, because you do zero damage while dead.

    As to your points.....

    1. Yes, you have a reduced arc of maximum effective fire, but your maximum also just went up.

    Get used to setting up high spike damage strafing runs.

    You're going to be generating your DPS in very high spikes, rather than pressure damage.

    2. Look at what you can do to strengthen the base value of your shield.

    And, as other have mentioned, a couple of copies of tactical team is a very good idea.

    Once you level up to VA, you can start looking at end game space sets. Many of which have auto repair options.

    Consider popping a shield battery before strafing runs if youre dying too much.

    Also, look at your power levels. You're going to want to fuind a sweet spot between weapons, engines and shields.

    Weapons get the most, and engines means speed which means defence, but shield power helps your shield recover faster.

    3. Ahhh, its the spike versus pressure damage thing.

    A beam cruiser can sit and broadside all day long with the vast majority of its weapons on target.

    However, a cannon boat has to face front to do its evilness, and you definitely dont want to be sitting still.

    Speed equals defence.

    The trick is to maximise your spike damage.


    While not claiming to be a fuly fledged expert in escorts, I do know that the main thing I've found is that its all about speed, positioning and timing.
  • wraithshadow13wraithshadow13 Member Posts: 1,728 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    orondis wrote: »
    For starters, make sure your using dual heavy cannons as dual cannons aren't as good.

    This has always bothered me, especially since the tool tip usually says they're at the same DPS. We're they supposed to be good for faster shots equalling more Proc chance? I want to say that there used to be some benefit to the dual cannons, but everyone on the forums seems to agree that they're useless. My KDF Tac is set up to proc as much as possible, but so far i've really noticed that most of her procs don't even proc, even when using rapid fire.




    I think with the growing popularity of the a2b build, as well as it's constant up time, has put cannons at a serious downgrade, even when using them with the a2b set up. It's a shame too since cannons are supposed to be the bigger damage, yet beams are still winning out thanks to fire at will.
  • doffingcomradedoffingcomrade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I think with the growing popularity of the a2b build, as well as it's constant up time, has put cannons at a serious downgrade, even when using them with the a2b set up. It's a shame too since cannons are supposed to be the bigger damage, yet beams are still winning out thanks to fire at will.
    This is bollocks. A2B has NOTHING to do with the cannons vs. beams debate. The uptime improvements of A2B improve the viability of BOTH types of weapons on Tac-deficient ships equally, and A2B is neither necessary nor even ultimately helpful: Top-end ships don't even use it.

    The reason beams are "winning out" over cannons is because of both content design and the fact that a ship has twice as many beams as it does cannons. You can only mount cannons fore, which means any rear slots must be filled with crappy turrets, whereas beams can be mounted both fore and aft and employed broadside. Additionally, FAW will attack targets of opportunity, while cannon skills will fire only on your designated targets or not at all.

    The end result is that beams will yield superior DPS in situations where there are a large number of indistinguishable targets which cannot be gathered into a narrow CSV firing cone and which one you fire on is not particularly relevant. However, for actually killing a specific set of targets, cannons remain superior.

    It should also be noted that cannons have superior power-management characteristics. This means that considerably less console and boff space must be used merely to manage the ultimately terrible power drain mechanics of beams, which means more console space can be used to improve damage, durability, and agility. Beamboats are generally slow-moving, and are at a disadvantage in content in which you must move quickly and kill fast.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • wraithshadow13wraithshadow13 Member Posts: 1,728 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    That's part of the reason why I keep asking about a single target max DPS. Too many builds are made for keeping faw on a constant uptime, where the parsers give an overall DPS rating. One of my captains is using an alright kinetic build as a shield tank, but the even with three doffs, the fire rate is too slow to keep up with the a2b beamboats. With the elite stfs and elite mirror event, ships are dropping me with insane torp spreads that can easily deal over 100k (total), which i'm admittedly jealous of. I think part of the reason this is such an issue is, like you said, beams have a way better arc which gives it's multi target more utility. The other part is that Cryptic doesn't really seem to be putting a lot of effort into keeping things balanced, at least not as much as they put into trying to squeeze money out of it's players.


    I personally would love to have the Quad-cannons and elite fleet dual heavy's set up on my Mvae, but the advantages of the A2B beam boat is just too useful at endgame, especially with the power creep.
  • greendragon527greendragon527 Member Posts: 386 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    vaklo wrote: »
    Thanks for the useful replies, and I don't get the slam.

    Let me clarify.

    I'm trying to figure out how cannons are better than beam arrays in terms of DPS, if when using them I still need to turn out of their firing arcs such that they are sometimes not firing where the beam arrays nearly always are.

    Important qualifiers, I am using the level 30 defiant, and I play the majority of the quests not at Normal, but at Advanced difficulty.

    Summary, are cannons really higher DPS if I need to turn? I think the answer is no, but I will look into double up on tac team. I was already manually diverting power to the front and using a single tac team and emergency power to shield.

    Thanks again.

    How bout thinking of it like this. Beams might well be better DPS, but cannons have far better DPV. Also think of the enemy shields, an enemy may turn while you're whittling away with beams, and now you have to knock another shield facing down, while with cannons, he may already be dead before such a thing occurs.

    It looks like this is your first character so I can tell you, having gone both directions myself, the cannons get the job done faster, and is a bit more satisfying depending on you taste
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    vaklo wrote: »
    Thanks for the useful replies, and I don't get the slam.

    Let me clarify.

    I'm trying to figure out how cannons are better than beam arrays in terms of DPS, if when using them I still need to turn out of their firing arcs such that they are sometimes not firing where the beam arrays nearly always are.

    Important qualifiers, I am using the level 30 defiant, and I play the majority of the quests not at Normal, but at Advanced difficulty.

    Summary, are cannons really higher DPS if I need to turn? I think the answer is no, but I will look into double up on tac team. I was already manually diverting power to the front and using a single tac team and emergency power to shield.

    Thanks again.


    Your answer: No, cannons are not going to be higher dps if you spend 50% of your time not shooting the target because you lack the skill to drive toward the target or have to constantly run off due to incoming damage. You are NOT wrong.

    They are much, much, much higher damage *on a single target or compacted group at short range* IF you can handle the incoming damage and can slow your ship down, yo-yo, or whatever to pile on the dps hard and basically win "the race" of "kill it before it kills you". This comes back to what we were saying: keep those cannons on target as long as you can by being as tough as you can be, keep your shields up and cannons blasting so your turn-arounds are fewer and your "downtime" not shooting is low enough that overall dps is higher.

    As one person said, turrets in the back lower your average dps. That is sorta true but using AP beam and cutting beam in the back, most escorts have 3 aft weapons, so only 1 turret and the others 2 are effectively beam arrays in dps. This makes AP slightly better as a weapon type because of the aft weapon advantage. You do not have these items available.... so average dps of cannons+turrets can be worth making a note of. Its still higher than all arrays.

    Other news: Non-broadside beam arrays means only 1/2 of them are hitting. Shooting 4 beam arrays when you face or flee a target is not a lot of dps. Its on par with the idiot 8 turret boat (these are fun, but the dps is seriously low). I mean 7-8 turrets can hit anything, anywhere, if it is within 10 km of you. You can fly and turn all you want. No one is recommending this for a reason. (I used the level 50 weapon layouts, but if you are in a 3/2 ship the same concepts apply).

    The real thing about beam arrays on the defiant: you lose ALL the reasons to fly the ship (high damage weapons kept on target with a high turn rate, in other words, a gunship) and have none of the advantages of a beam cruiser (commands, toughness, 1 more weapon). If you want to hit everything on the screen, use a cruiser. If that is your style and the free ship you took was the defiant, you can DO that until your next ship at 40, and then get the more appropriate ship. That is OK, you learned something about what you like and dislike.


    As far as it goes, you could even do this at max level, fly an escort with beam arrays. If that is truly the build you really love (aoe and manuveribility) --- go for it! It won't be a max-min build, but you can make a solid build of it. STO is flexible and you can do just about anything. Again, my engineer is in a BOP with a cmdr science officer. Breaking the mold is good, but you should at least understand the pros and cons to doing odd things. Also, seriously consider a dual beam bank build in that defiant. DBB "beamscorts" are quite effective.


    Dual vs Dual heavy:
    Dual heavies are slightly more power efficient (or so the forums say, I can't tell) and have a built in (critd?) bonus over regulars.

    That said, I can barely tell the difference in actual damage done between them. I doubt its 5% total which is only going to be noticed on billionty health single target stuff like a borg gate. I certainly would not pay for fleet duals instead of fleet heavies but the cheap exchange duals are worth using until you can upgrade.
  • edgecrysgeredgecrysger Member Posts: 2,740 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    orondis wrote: »
    At lvl 30 cannons are easily the best. Once I get past level 10 all my toons switch to full dual heavy cannon and turret loadout for level grinding. It's only really at max level that things begin to get "complicated" in regard to beams vs cannons.

    At lvl 30 though a cannon rapid fire +attack pattern beta buffed ship with 4 dual heavy cannons and 2 turrets will rip through an npc in a second.

    Personally I've never had a problem with keeping an NPC in my firing arc, even on the slower turning battlecruisers.

    Except that, turrets are useless. DONT use em. Specially in lower levels. In lower levels, torpedoes are far far better and more useful than turrets lol. Actually if you ever going to use turrets, you will need 3 of em at the same time, if not, they are a waste of time. Only 2 turrets at once is useless as well, you need 3 at least. Thats the reason it is a waste, turrets are weak, but if you put 3 of em in your afterwards, they they are useful.

    I will never understand y people keep using turrets on escorts lol. If you have a really fast and maneouverable ship, for god sake, dont use turrets. If you can fight with your forward and afterward at the same time, since escorts are fast, using turrets is a waste. Super low DPS, super low shield penetration and the only advantaje they have is they are treated as cannons, nothing more.

    Its like people that use turrets on bird of preys, for example, that is the most silly thing ive ever seen, but people do really weird things.

    Instead of turrets, if you want to keep always looking forward (something that in escorts its really hard, thats the reason i will never understand the use of turrets) , i recommend the AP beam and / or the KCB one. The AP beam can be adquired going through the first episode of the dyson sphere story arc, and the KCB through the Omega rep. They are beams, but they have 360 firing arc and they are really worthy. You can use em as well to shot at your front target, same as if you were using turrets. And they are far better than turrets.
Sign In or Register to comment.