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Star Trek Online and the Khitomer Accords

flash525flash525 Member Posts: 5,441 Arc User
In Trek lore, this is an agreement between the Federation and Klingons. Obviously it doesn't feature at the moment cause J'mpok tore them up and them 'em in the bin. However;

There has been talk (on and off) about ending the war between the Federation and Klingon Empires (again). They've shown that they can work together (against the Borg, aiding on Mol'rhian and also fighting against the Voth in the Sphere). No doubt they'll band together against the Undine too.

You could say they're in a state of cold war at the moment. Regardless, one of the defining factors of their former alliance breaking down is that the Klingons launched an invasion of the Gorn. Then they allied with the Orion, and brought in the Nausicaan, Lethean and Ferasan.

If the Khitomer Accords are ever renewed, what happens to the Gorn, Orion, Nausicaan, Lethean and Ferasan? Surely the Federation wouldn't make such an alliance if the Klingons have claimed the Gorn? Likewise, would the Federation be willing to work with Pirates, Smugglers and Crime Lords (as the Orion and Nausicaan are?)

What happens to internal Imperial alliances if the Federation and Klingons get their sh*t together?
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  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Season 9: A New Accord

    Just saying

    Edit: Also, just because the Feds and KDF were allies, dosen't mean that the KDF had to give up all their subjugated subjects... Why would this be different?

    Nothings gonna change.
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  • flash525flash525 Member Posts: 5,441 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    anazonda wrote: »
    And that consists of? You don't know? Gee ... Speculate. :rolleyes:
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  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    flash525 wrote: »
    And that consists of? You don't know? Gee ... Speculate. :rolleyes:

    Right... I forgot...

    Not thinking like you = Being wrong.
    Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
    Let me put the rumors to rest: it's definitely still the C-Store (Cryptic Store) It just takes ZEN.
    Like Duty Officers? Support effords to gather ideas
  • rahmkota19rahmkota19 Member Posts: 1,929 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    (first off, isn't this Ten Forward material)

    I doubt that the Federation will start being tough with the subject of Gorn, Orions, Letheans and Nausicaans. They have been in the Empire for at least 5 years now. Sometimes we see Gorn rebellions, but hey, we also see Klingons fighting. Each species in the Empire is loyal to it.

    The Federation does not have the strength left to make demands about these species. They were unable to defeat the Empire before the Tholians, Borg, Undine, Voth, New Romulus, True Way and the rest happened. Now all of these happened, stretching the recourses of the Federation pretty thin. If I was a politician, I would be happy to make a peace without victory with the Klingons. Less of a recourse drain, I can focuss more effectively against mutual threads with a new, powerful ally.



    EDIT: And guys, please don't start with the name calling and insulting already. This isn't the usual internet, these are the STO forums. Lets keep it civilized here, shall we?
  • flash525flash525 Member Posts: 5,441 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    anazonda wrote: »
    Not thinking like you = Being wrong.
    :rolleyes: Oh My God! You sure do rattle on, don't you?

    Even though you edited your above post, would it have hurt you (apparently) to be any less vague and maybe ... just maybe actually write a post that has required a thought process from you?

    I'm going to find a really small violin. Be back later.

    rahmkota19 wrote: »
    (first off, isn't this Ten Forward material)
    I would say no for the simple reason that the accords we know from Trek have been altered (or rather, destroyed) for the STO story to take place. If such an accord is going to be rewritten, it'll be done so from within the STO setting, so it's really game related.
    rahmkota19 wrote: »
    I doubt that the Federation will start being tough with the subject of Gorn, Orions, Letheans and Nausicaans. They have been in the Empire for at least 5 years now. Sometimes we see Gorn rebellions, but hey, we also see Klingons fighting. Each species in the Empire is loyal to it.
    I just have a hard time believing the Federation would create a new accord with the KDF knowing full well that the Orion Syndicate deal in slave labor and piracy.
    rahmkota19 wrote: »
    EDIT: And guys, please don't start with the name calling and insulting already. This isn't the usual internet, these are the STO forums. Lets keep it civilized here, shall we?
    Lately, I can't seem to go anywhere without that troll following me about. What am I suppose to do? :eek:
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  • revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    flash525 wrote: »
    In Trek lore, this is an agreement between the Federation and Klingons. Obviously it doesn't feature at the moment cause J'mpok tore them up and them 'em in the bin. However;

    There has been talk (on and off) about ending the war between the Federation and Klingon Empires (again). They've shown that they can work together (against the Borg, aiding on Mol'rhian and also fighting against the Voth in the Sphere). No doubt they'll band together against the Undine too.

    You could say they're in a state of cold war at the moment. Regardless, one of the defining factors of their former alliance breaking down is that the Klingons launched an invasion of the Gorn. Then they allied with the Orion, and brought in the Nausicaan, Lethean and Ferasan.

    If the Khitomer Accords are ever renewed, what happens to the Gorn, Orion, Nausicaan, Lethean and Ferasan? Surely the Federation wouldn't make such an alliance if the Klingons have claimed the Gorn? Likewise, would the Federation be willing to work with Pirates, Smugglers and Crime Lords (as the Orion and Nausicaan are?)

    What happens to internal Imperial alliances if the Federation and Klingons get their sh*t together?

    Not sure, but I think it was actually Martok who withdrew from the Kithomer accords (according to that path to 2409)

    But I still think that bringing the Klingons back to war was a stupid idea in the first place, and story wise incredibly repetitive.
    Not that this was handled better in Canon.... there it seemed that the Kithomer accords could be switched on/off at will.

    Gowron just said "what the hell, Kithomer is off" and a year and a half later, in "by infernos light" or how that episode was called, it was nothing more then pushing the thump on a pad to switch them "on" again...
  • kargisterkargister Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    What the Empire does is its own business, its composition has nothing to do with an alliance with the Federation.

    When Duras was trying to usurp the chancellorship they stepped back and did nothing even though Gowron asked for help, it was an "internal matter". They only involved themselves once they found out about the Romulans. Same logic applies to a new Khitomer. They're dealing with the Empire and whatever promises it issues, not individual species they may or may not approve of.
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  • bendalekbendalek Member Posts: 1,781 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    It doesn't have to mean they'll all 'sit around a holographic campfire on DS9 and sing Kumbayah! ... Maybe they just agree to a cease fire?

    With all the "threats" to the peace, and the very survival of the races, in the Alpha Quadrant that keep cropping up, it seems a bit pointless now to be fighting each other.

    Anything you currently "own" you keep.

    Anything that's currently contested, either reverts to it's original owner (before the war) or becomes neutral territory.

    Anything currently neutral, stays neutral.

    Call 'em the DS9 Accords or the Solonae Accords or something.
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  • tyranthraxisiityranthraxisii Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    anazonda wrote: »
    Season 9: A New Accord

    Just saying

    Edit: Also, just because the Feds and KDF were allies, dosen't mean that the KDF had to give up all their subjugated subjects... Why would this be different?

    Nothings gonna change.

    Well I do hope 1 thing changes actually. I hope that all the little useless encounters in federation space are not Klingons if the accords are resigned. Maybe Cryptic should rethink the enemy encounters entirely.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=TREQGl54BU8&feature=endscreen
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  • bluegeekbluegeek Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Well, I think the OP has a point.

    The Accords were with a Klingon Empire which was very different from the one in the current STO timeline.

    It's one thing for the Federation to have a treaty with the Klingons and maybe even including the Gorn. It's quite another to have a treaty which covers the Orions, Nausicaans, Letheans, and Ferasans.

    I'm not talking about the people who join the KDF. They're part of the military and one presumes not (openly) involved in criminal activities. I'm talking about the civilian mercenaries, pirates, smugglers, and slavers who operate under the protection of the Empire as citizens of the Empire.

    Signing a similar peace accord with the Empire is effectively also signing a peace accord with the Orion Syndicate. Does anyone see that working out well?

    The title of Season 9 aside, I can't see much changing at the lower levels. I still expect to see FvK hostilities, run-ins with Gorn, Nausicaans, and Orions, etc. The 'New Accord' may not amount to much more than a united military front against the Undine. It doesn't necessarily equate that the KDF will enforce sanctions against citizens of the Empire engaging in acts of piracy against the Federation, for example.

    Depends on what's in those accords and whether the Klingons have the stomach to make the peace stick despite internal opposition. I don't think they're going to set themselves up for a civil war.

    I realize that my comments up to this point have been focused on the Empire. But that's only because that's where I'd expect the most trouble getting internal cooperation with a comprehensive peace accord. There still seems to be a lot of mistrust on all three sides of the Joint Alliance. Klingon warriors would be the first to recognize the value of comrades in battle.
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  • protogothprotogoth Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    bendalek wrote: »
    It doesn't have to mean they'll all 'sit around a holographic campfire on DS9 and sing Kumbayah! ... Maybe they just agree to a cease fire?

    (snip)

    Call 'em the DS9 Accords or the Solonae Accords or something.

    I believe it should be "Hoaer Mol'Rihan" (New Romulus Accord), since it was the New Romulan Republic which stayed neutral and brought the two warring factions closer together in cooperation (to help with the building of the Capitol City on ch'Mol'Rihan and the taming of the planet, to fight the Elachi and the Tal"Shiar, to enter the Solanae Dyson Sphere, to establish a Dyson Joint Command, ... I'm sure the list would go on indefinitely if the Accord were not imminent).
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    that old loose storyline from the path to power and early federation and late 8472 story arc in pelia would likely be changed again to fit the underlying storyline in season 9 or the expansion i bet, including a heavily featured klingon story arc i bet as well, one that shows that the klingons believed the federation was full of shapeshifters, when for example j'mpok was the 8472 all along, and has been for years and his careful manipulations has put the empire at great risk, this then fills the void for the federation and charge to the rescue doubtless knowing how stretched starfleet is when the 8472 invade the alpha/beta quadrants. thanks to federation assistance and some republic backing while the full force of the attack hits new romulus' defense force, the klingons see now there was far more honor in the federation and how they themselves have been blinded by the code of honor, to not see the rancor in targ fur for what it was.
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  • aloishammeraloishammer Member Posts: 3,294 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    flash525 wrote: »
    And that consists of? You don't know? Gee ... Speculate. :rolleyes:

    "Gee...Speculate" = "Now discuss"

    :rolleyes:
  • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited April 2014
  • tyranthraxisiityranthraxisii Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    bluegeek wrote: »
    Well, I think the OP has a point.

    The Accords were with a Klingon Empire which was very different from the one in the current STO timeline.

    It's one thing for the Federation to have a treaty with the Klingons and maybe even including the Gorn. It's quite another to have a treaty which covers the Orions, Nausicaans, Letheans, and Ferasans.

    I'm not talking about the people who join the KDF. They're part of the military and one presumes not (openly) involved in criminal activities. I'm talking about the civilian mercenaries, pirates, smugglers, and slavers who operate under the protection of the Empire as citizens of the Empire.

    Signing a similar peace accord with the Empire is effectively also signing a peace accord with the Orion Syndicate. Does anyone see that working out well?

    The title of Season 9 aside, I can't see much changing at the lower levels. I still expect to see FvK hostilities, run-ins with Gorn, Nausicaans, and Orions, etc. The 'New Accord' may not amount to much more than a united military front against the Undine. It doesn't necessarily equate that the KDF will enforce sanctions against citizens of the Empire engaging in acts of piracy against the Federation, for example.

    Depends on what's in those accords and whether the Klingons have the stomach to make the peace stick despite internal opposition. I don't think they're going to set themselves up for a civil war.

    I realize that my comments up to this point have been focused on the Empire. But that's only because that's where I'd expect the most trouble getting internal cooperation with a comprehensive peace accord. There still seems to be a lot of mistrust on all three sides of the Joint Alliance. Klingon warriors would be the first to recognize the value of comrades in battle.

    This is very true, the "Now" Klingon Empire is more similar to the TOS/Enterprise Klingon Empire.
    But as a main Federation Admiral, I have a suggestion to get the Khitomer Accords signed again.

    All we have to do is blow up a Klingon moon!
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  • tyranthraxisiityranthraxisii Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    that old loose storyline from the path to power and early federation and late 8472 story arc in pelia would likely be changed again to fit the underlying storyline in season 9 or the expansion i bet, including a heavily featured klingon story arc i bet as well, one that shows that the klingons believed the federation was full of shapeshifters, when for example j'mpok was the 8472 all along, and has been for years and his careful manipulations has put the empire at great risk, this then fills the void for the federation and charge to the rescue doubtless knowing how stretched starfleet is when the 8472 invade the alpha/beta quadrants. thanks to federation assistance and some republic backing while the full force of the attack hits new romulus' defense force, the klingons see now there was far more honor in the federation and how they themselves have been blinded by the code of honor, to not see the rancor in targ fur for what it was.

    I've thought about this too, and I hope this is what they end up doing. What better way to completely dominate an empire through subterfuge than to have your main operative hunt down and expose the other planted operatives.
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  • lilchibiclarililchibiclari Member Posts: 1,193 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I would think that the "New" Accord will be more like the alliance formed to fight the Dominion War. Each of the three nations would provide strategic/logistic support for fighting the common enemies, and they would declare an end to the fighting between themselves.
  • megatronis1megatronis1 Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    protogoth wrote: »
    I believe it should be "Hoaer Mol'Rihan" (New Romulus Accord), since it was the New Romulan Republic which stayed neutral and brought the two warring factions closer together in cooperation (to help with the building of the Capitol City on ch'Mol'Rihan and the taming of the planet, to fight the Elachi and the Tal"Shiar, to enter the Solanae Dyson Sphere, to establish a Dyson Joint Command, ... I'm sure the list would go on indefinitely if the Accord were not imminent).


    I'm sure it would... :P lol

    But some of It is debatable at best since the Federation and Empire were already starting to work more together (Task force omega, the joint battle against the doomsday device, Battle to take back Ds9 from the rebel Jem'hadar in the 2800 arc, etc ) long before they helped rebuild a Romulan homeworld, Elachi, Solanae events, etc. The efforts on new Romulus no doubt helped somewhat but the signs were there for a while before.
  • anodynesanodynes Member Posts: 1,999 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I'm sure it would... :P lol

    But some of It is debatable at best since the Federation and Empire were already starting to work more together (Task force omega, the joint battle against the doomsday device, Battle to take back Ds9 from the rebel Jem'hadar in the 2800 arc, etc ) long before they helped rebuild a Romulan homeworld, Elachi, Solanae events, etc. The efforts on new Romulus no doubt helped somewhat but the signs were there for a while before.

    Story time and release date are different. Virinat is attacked a few weeks before Vega, for instance, and from a Romulan player's perspective, only perhaps the Doomsday device storyline, out of the things that you listed, happened before the Romulan Republic's mutual alliances with both belligerents.

    However, major treaties that end wars are usually named after where they are signed, so it would only be the New Romulus Accord if it were actually signed there, regardless of what part the Romulan Republic played in it.
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  • willamsheridanwillamsheridan Member Posts: 1,189 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Just Kill J`mpok and Ja`rod and make someone chancellor who is not as filthy as Duras himself. Still unbelievable that it was so easy for Worf to betray the Federation just because they didnt start a war based on some Accusations from a bloodthirsty Klingon petaQ. Now we know there are undines and on every frontline we fight side by side so lets make peace (but still kill the Chancellor)
  • tyranthraxisiityranthraxisii Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Honestly if the future of the 25th century and beyond is the way this game is taking it, it appears that the Alpha/Beta quadrants, and the conflicts therein are small and meaningless at this point. It would only seem prudent if a new Confederation of the remaining powers formed, to explore and combat the space/threats of the Gamma and Delta quadrant. And as has been pointed out in another post on this forum not to far removed, said confederation should start focusing more attention on extra galactic exploration, and possible threats from without.
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  • protogothprotogoth Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Just Kill J`mpok and Ja`rod and make someone chancellor who is not as filthy as Duras himself. Still unbelievable that it was so easy for Worf to betray the Federation just because they didnt start a war based on some Accusations from a bloodthirsty Klingon petaQ. Now we know there are undines and on every frontline we fight side by side so lets make peace (but still kill the Chancellor)

    Whaaaaat? Worf did not betray the Federation; the Undine-dominated Federation not only abandoned Worf and the Klingon Empire, it actually picked a fight with them. *stares at you closely, running a scan covertly* You wouldn't happen to be an Undine, would you?
  • rynohawkrynohawk Member Posts: 66 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    flash525 wrote: »
    In Trek lore, this is an agreement between the Federation and Klingons. Obviously it doesn't feature at the moment cause J'mpok tore them up and them 'em in the bin. However;

    There has been talk (on and off) about ending the war between the Federation and Klingon Empires (again). They've shown that they can work together (against the Borg, aiding on Mol'rhian and also fighting against the Voth in the Sphere). No doubt they'll band together against the Undine too.

    You could say they're in a state of cold war at the moment. Regardless, one of the defining factors of their former alliance breaking down is that the Klingons launched an invasion of the Gorn. Then they allied with the Orion, and brought in the Nausicaan, Lethean and Ferasan.

    If the Khitomer Accords are ever renewed, what happens to the Gorn, Orion, Nausicaan, Lethean and Ferasan? Surely the Federation wouldn't make such an alliance if the Klingons have claimed the Gorn? Likewise, would the Federation be willing to work with Pirates, Smugglers and Crime Lords (as the Orion and Nausicaan are?)

    What happens to internal Imperial alliances if the Federation and Klingons get their sh*t together?

    The Khitomer Accords were more of a peace treaty than an alliance. Therefore, reactivating them would simply end hostilities between the two factions. That doesn't require either party to live by one code or the other.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Just Kill J`mpok and Ja`rod and make someone chancellor who is not as filthy as Duras himself. Still unbelievable that it was so easy for Worf to betray the Federation just because they didnt start a war based on some Accusations from a bloodthirsty Klingon petaQ. Now we know there are undines and on every frontline we fight side by side so lets make peace (but still kill the Chancellor)

    based on what i have seen of Ja'rod, hes strictly motivated to defeating the enemies of the empire however he is not silly enough to call potential friends who save his ships hull and incidentally his hide as enemies despite encountering him a little early into the federation captains career. and with Koren now taking over the lead, not much else has been shown of Ja'rod. i dont think hes the shapeshifting 8472. however i am suspicious of Koren, as she is pushing for a dangerous motive without consulting the empire for instructions.

    J'mpok on the other hand, lets consider it, he leads the empire, has defeated Martok in combat for leadership and has kept it for years, suddenly the idea of shapeshifting 8472 just happens around the same time. ever since the empire has started wars, destroyed alliances and made everyone weaker. this doesnt mean he is an 8472, but from a storyline stand point it makes J'mpok look like one because hes using the empires bloodlust as a vehicle for his masters aims while remaining invisible.

    if there was enough accusations floating around and some T's and I's were connected, you know the Klingons will pursue the lead for as far as possible and with worf on board and a player in a storyline, you get to see how the empire itself was used by 8472 without realizing it, imagine several of the greatest champions and leaders on the high council were 8472. it would make for one hell of a storyline arc.
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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    rynohawk wrote: »
    The Khitomer Accords were more of a peace treaty than an alliance. Therefore, reactivating them would simply end hostilities between the two factions. That doesn't require either party to live by one code or the other.

    however though the klingons were destined to be a part of the federation in a century from now anyways, so at some point that silly war idea has to end.
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  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    however though the klingons were destined to be a part of the federation in a century from now anyways, so at some point that silly war idea has to end.

    assuming of course that the future Archer saw is the "correct one" thats a BIIIG assumption.

    to quote someone from another franchise "always in motion is the future" one should NEVER use "time travel forward" events as markings of exact destiny. one shou;d instead view it as a POSSIABLE feature.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    assuming of course that the future Archer saw is the "correct one" thats a BIIIG assumption.

    to quote someone from another franchise "always in motion is the future" one should NEVER use "time travel forward" events as markings of exact destiny. one shou;d instead view it as a POSSIABLE feature.

    trouble is that the events unfolded exactly as the time traveller claimed, the xindi conflict ended and peace was established between the clans and the new UFP. that xindi were serving in starfleet and the battle of Procyon was to be the final fate of the sphere builders. it was set in stone because it appeared on tv so its canon. trek time travel hshown time and time again that events happen and there is no way to stop them from continue to happen, that they must happen. but some from the future would alter the past to create their own future but even these get corrected before the effect happens. then you got causality loops in time that eventually one or a few people realize they are looping in time to try avoid their fates after what could potentially be 200 enterprise destruction at the hands of the soyez crossing the galaxy nacelle.
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  • galaxyrider0galaxyrider0 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Hi!

    People you're forgeting that in DS9 Gowron canceled all Kithomer Accords. After that attack of the Klingons when Worf convinces Gowron to Stand Down, then they start to get along again.
    It was the returno of the true Martok that changed the mind of Gowron for good.

    So yes, there is no more Kithomer Accords, not since DS9, they were changed.

    What I think about season 9? EVERYONE(Gary Oldman Style) will need to stick together. If the Undine are like the Voyager ones, they will cause destruction off the scale.

    Romulans never reclaimed their full might again, neither the Klingon or the Federation.

    Also, I have a theory that D'Tan is a Undine, J'mpok and Admiral Quinn too. Think of it, the Iconians destroyed the Romulus and Remus so they can take out the Romulan Empire and use them to cripple the Alpha Quadrant. Then, when the Tal Shiar failed to acomplish their mission, they intigated the Undine even forward against the races of the Alpha Quadrant. All the incidents with the Dyson Spheres.

    Yes, the Iconian manipulated the Undine, that in turn manipulated all major forces in the Alpha Quadrant.

    This war FED vs KDF will end soon.
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  • bluegeekbluegeek Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Also, I have a theory that D'Tan is a Undine, J'mpok and Admiral Quinn too. Think of it, the Iconians destroyed the Romulus and Remus so they can take out the Romulan Empire and use them to cripple the Alpha Quadrant. Then, when the Tal Shiar failed to acomplish their mission, they intigated the Undine even forward against the races of the Alpha Quadrant. All the incidents with the Dyson Spheres.

    I'm not going out on a limb to say that couldn't happen...

    But after the Dominion threat and other encounters with the Undine from the game's timeline, I believe that the powers-that-be have gotten quite good at detecting high-profile shapeshifters. Undine are less detectable than the Changelings are, since they actually rewrite their own DNA, but they can be detected.

    Considering that most of the missions we get sent on have the direct result of undermining Iconian influences, I'd say if any of those guys are sleeper agents they're not very good at it.

    Cooper as an Undine worked because he was not likely to be suspected. Up until now, there was no hint that the Undine had an operation focused on the Sphere. Once the Undine revealed themselves, there was no point in maintaining that identity any longer -- he would have come under scrutiny.


    One thing is bugging me, though. The upcoming Undine Assault scenario has the Undine opening rifts and attacking one of four planets in the Alpha Quadrant with planet killers.

    If they could do that, they needed to invade via the Jenolan sphere why, exactly?

    It undermines the argument that the Undine can only open rifts in certain locations.

    Unless perhaps they're opening the rifts from this side?
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