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Should their be Progression after 50?

bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
I enjoy games that allow me to continue advancing my character even after the maximum level. It does not have to be a massive gain in power per say, just some form of actual power increase even if it is extremely minor.

Previously the reputation system allowed for this. And of course their is always the gear progression mostly in the console/fleet department. But it seems the new focus is for all progression in STO to be horizontal instead of vertical. By that I mean they add new options and new equipment slots or types of equipment like the EV suits and with the new design of the reputation traits.

But I liked the idea that progressing in a reputation increased my overall character power instead of just options. So I must ask should something else be added to fill that void?

Other games have done so. Diablo 3 has paragon levels which add extremely minor increases to a characters power for each one you get that is accumulated account wide and applies to all your characters. I really like that system even though the gains are extremely small (maybe .001% power increase per point) the gains do help you cover up some of the 'required' attributes and help all your characters. Everquest has it's own AA system which honestly got kind of crazy so is a bit of a bad example. And many others do it via an achievement system which STO kind of has even though it is very limited.

And true it does have the potential to create an uneven playing field in PvP, but I can see no reason it couldn't simply be disabled in that area. Additionally it can cause too large of a gap between the 'fresh' 50 and the 'vet' 50 but gear and the fleet system already do that to a much worse degree. And on that note it is not so much the gap creating the problem, but the length of the progression to close that gap. Anyone starting a fleet from scratch today with 3 and soon to be a 4th holding added has an extremely daunting road ahead of them that should be shortened.

To that end I propose the 'Admiralty' System. This will have projects similar to the ones you see from the fleet system but will be just for your characters. Their can be multiple tracks that could require a variety of inputs from primarily expertise along with energy credits and possibly even some of the existing marks. These inputs can be filled by any of your characters. Say three tracks to begin with, engineering science and tactical.

Completion of a project tier will yield minor skill boosts. I'm talking very minor like +2 Starship Weapons training as an example that applies to all your characters.

Furthermore the projects will reward a set amount of experience upon that track so say 1,000 to begin with and the first tier can be reached at 10,000 experience. But in the future, say each season launched, the experience rewarded for each project can be increased. This will allow the total amount of progression to be increased without actually increasing the amount of time it takes to complete.

It is a rough idea I admit. But the question I guess I have at the end is...

Is the ability to continue to progress your character important to your enjoyment of STO?
Post edited by bareel on

Comments

  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Personally I like how APB did it even if the game was a horrible mess. The unlocks you got were mostly aesthetic; people heavily invested in the game got access to fancier cosmetic items and costumes. Another way they did it was with something like STO's trait system, where they allowed you to obtain really silly and usually situational abilities so they could add flavor without breaking the game.

    There was one that let you stand on top of moving vehicles, turn your car into a time bomb, or so it would explode on impact, there was another that made it so you didn't flinch when falling, but you took more damage etc.

    Something like that could work for STO, but I'm not sure anything like Paragon levels would, because the Reputation traits sort of filled that, and, well, you see how that was working out.
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Reduction of minor power creep is not how a game ever should progress, they have no excuse for why they cannot provide ever increasing npc difficulty, not why they cannot come up with strict regulation of power creep for pvp!!!

    Less excuses in favor of game rewinds, more advancement in game challenge.
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • edited March 2014
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  • sophus84atsophus84at Member Posts: 404 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Rule 1 for Cryptics Make the game harder chart is:

    Spawn more Rifts

    Rule 2 is: Spawn more Mirror Universe Ships in these Rifts

    Was that way in Crystalline a couple months ago, is now again in Mirror Invasion. and will be again

    Simply spawning more entities and you being struck by 9 typhons, stripped of your shields and then instagibbed by the quantum torps of doom. admitted its funnier and fairer than the mirror crystalline event we had.
    still somehow a patterns signs it self here.

    they will only make the game harder with spamming the screen. or upping the HP. that it just takes longer... OR give spheres a broken epte power so that they actually warp over the screen.

    sad that this was actually tested. and as always people cpmplained about these things in the tests. as they do now.. but it still hits the holo decks, everytime.

    increasing npc difficulty would be a dream. but not just give them the ability to instagib us. make them more cunning. not spam them around us. give them powers that are equal but not OP. just make the use these pwers right.. but well if not even my shuttles pets are getting the " no that a warpcre stay away!!!!" command correctly.. i doubt the larger ships can xD
    "Mei Borg is net deppat".....

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • aloishammeraloishammer Member Posts: 3,294 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Should their be Progression after 50?

    There, not their, should be. And there is. What do you think all this Rep grind is supposed to be anyway? :rolleyes:
  • darthstormstrikedarthstormstrike Member Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Now the winners will be the ones who buy things off the C-Store. BranFlakes even said in a post about that Arc shuttle it has a console "FTW" as he said.

    So the progression Cryptic is wanting us to do has to do with what's in your wallet as the commercials say for CapitalOne.

    Welcome to the P2W era for Cryptic. It was a little more subtle before but now it's blatant.
    ___________________

    "There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    bareel wrote: »
    But it seems the new focus is for all progression in STO to be horizontal instead of vertical. By that I mean they add new options and new equipment slots or types of equipment like the EV suits and with the new design of the reputation traits.

    That's ALWAYS been the focus.

    Look at how gear works.

    White gear, no effects.
    Green gear gets one effect, like [ACC]
    Blue gets two.
    Purple gets three.
    Elite Fleet gets four.

    It's horizontal progression.This game has always since day 1 been wary of too much vertical progression.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • xigbargxigbarg Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    After level 50, they could add holographic boffs voiced by out favorite actors. Not sure how many lines they will have or when they will say them but it would be interesting to strive for.

    Cooldowns:
    "Can't do that, sir"
    "Torpedos haven't reloaded yet"
    "Still rerouting power for another burst"

    Grenades:
    "generic fire in the hole lines"

    ect. (Insert your own dream lines here)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    That's ALWAYS been the focus.

    Look at how gear works.

    White gear, no effects.
    Green gear gets one effect, like [ACC]
    Blue gets two.
    Purple gets three.
    Elite Fleet gets four.

    It's horizontal progression.This game has always since day 1 been wary of too much vertical progression.

    Actually that is an example of vertical progression, each piece is stronger even if by only a small amount.

    True horizontal progression are things such as shuttles, EV suits, and more items that are the same basic power level as the others.
  • rinksterrinkster Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Perhaps, after level 50, you have a new option.

    Deep space survey.

    Using the Iconian gates as your jumping off point, you're tasked with exploring the andromeda gateway.

    Of course, things go horribly wrong, yadda yadda and you and your ship are stuck there.

    Permanently.

    Just make a new server and call it andromeda.

    Then fill it with the nastiest, roughest, beastliest baddies you can build and have at it......
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    bareel wrote: »
    Actually that is an example of vertical progression, each piece is stronger even if by only a small amount.

    Nope. It's horizontal. The weapon retains the exact same DPS, it's effects just get better.

    I used this example a week or so ago from ye olde Vanilla WoW.

    Vertical Progression that was a very good example of "mudflation" ... what we old timers used to call power creep ... was when my guild first took down Ragnaros.

    I upgraded my dagger from a blue heartseeker to the purple Perdition's Blade.

    EVERYTHING on that new dagger was substantially better. Stats AND damage AND process effect. That's vertical progression.

    Adding another ancillary bonus to a phaser beam array that does the same base damage, that's how cryptic has had this game designed from day one.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • puttenhamputtenham Member Posts: 1,052 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    the problem with the game only having monitary horizontal (as was stated earlier) is that it keeps us basically stuck with the same old content..

    when a game like say wow, introduces another ten levels, it comes with leveling content, and with "new" endgame scenarios and content.

    since cryptic does not like to horizontally progress the game, we have now been stuck with basically the same endgame content for 4 years..

    look at the stf's as say raid content, we have had one taken away, and only gotten one new one.

    the events (ie, mu and ce) are kind of like dungeons, but they all play the same in this game.. and we only have a few..

    and the dyson zones are not really designed for compelling replayability. honestly, while they are fun a few times, they do not have a sustainability for even a few months..

    we need level cap increases, thus increasing the gear and what not, so that the game can progress accordingly.. otherwise, we get the lazy half a**ed content we get.

    the last time they raised the level cap, we got a bunch of new missions, and a new zone. (yes, there wasn't much to do in it, but it was a step in the right direction.). to be honest, we should have gotten a bunch of new stf's based on the undine the last time we got a level cap increase..

    a lot of people (lazy people) are scared and losing it over a level cap increase. but to be honest, there is nothing to be scared about.. it gives you a reason to play your characters again, it gives you a new carrot to chase..
  • erei1erei1 Member Posts: 4,081 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Compare a fresh lvl50 (good) player with a f2p ships, and quest reward/cheap blue from exchange/drop items on it, with an a2b scimitard with full fleet/cstore/rep gear, and tell me again about the lack of post 50 progression.
    The newbie will probably have 5K DPS, while the other one will have 30k+ DPS. The newbie will get killed a lot in elite (if he have aggro, that's it), while the other one will be unkillable, unless he meets an invisitorp.
    I know I used to have 5K DPS with my fresh 50 Rom, and now I have more than 25K on my scimitard, and I don't even bough fleet weapon/fleet consoles for it, still using blue from the exchange. I stopped playing this mindless DPS boat, I could hear my brain cell dying everytime I used spacebar. With my Ar'kif I'm still in the 15k DPS range, with is 3 times more than when I was fresh 50.


    There is enough vertical progression post 50. You just can't see it, and it's not items with more damage on it, it's more sneaky. The fleet tac consoles are completely OP, and will increase your DPS. Because they have a crt related bonus. For example.

    In this game, +DMG is usually meaningless, while +CTRH/D is everything.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    xigbarg wrote: »
    After level 50, they could add holographic boffs voiced by out favorite actors. Not sure how many lines they will have or when they will say them but it would be interesting to strive for.

    Cooldowns:
    "Can't do that, sir"
    "Torpedos haven't reloaded yet"
    "Still rerouting power for another burst"

    Grenades:
    "generic fire in the hole lines"

    ect. (Insert your own dream lines here)

    Only if Dave Rivas reprises his role as Eric Cooper to voice every bridge officer line.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • wazzagiowwazzagiow Member Posts: 769 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    increasing the level cap don't change the end game problems. it just means the devs have to do a lot of work to move the problem to a later date. that later date would be a lot sooner than any one would want for the amount of work put in.

    months and months of work = problem fixed for a week if we are lucky
  • willamsheridanwillamsheridan Member Posts: 1,189 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I think an Increase of level CAps woul make the problems worse.

    It is so: From the time you reach Lvl 40and shortly thereafter Lvl 50 there is no nwe content. THe Progreaaion in STO is T-Shaped. From Lvl 1-40/50 you rise through the ranks with newwer abilities and stronger ships but from Level 40 you have nothing to do and start the horizontal progression with REputation systems, Fleet holdings and so on. All Mk XII Stuff (REp system Mk X and XI is a waste of money) and more or less comparable. But there is nothing you can do with it. No new content. Foundy missions are not hard, the storylines are done, the STfs and other "REputation system missions" are just a few so you have to replay them over and over again.

    In the end you have probably 5 full Sets from the REputation systems and one full FLeet equipment and are basically on Level 60 if you consider your abilities and strength but all your enemies are still Lvl 40


    THey should not introduce new Ranks and Mk´s but instead make just more missions with useful REwards so we can have fun playing the game.


    If they intruduce new Ranks and Mks it means 2 things:

    1: Your Reputationsystem skills and your ship are outdated so you have to grind again, buy new weapons, probably a new Ship and spend months wihth grinding but all the stuff you have, you can throw away. You wont survive in PvP and will be dead weight in Stfs and PvE

    2: Even if they introduce new enemies you will still be better than them and soon be th the same point where you were before the new ranks were introduced.



    More missions, more Dilithium, More and Stronger enemies and more ways to get Lobi, that would be nice

    And maybe all Mission rewards scaling up to Mk XII purple for Players who reached Lvl 50 including the Breen and Jem Hadar sets and the retrofit Phasers. I am not going to buy Lockboxes just for a few Crystals if i need 800 for an Obelisk and 200 for the Jem hadar set.
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Nope. It's horizontal. The weapon retains the exact same DPS, it's effects just get better.

    I used this example a week or so ago from ye olde Vanilla WoW.

    Vertical Progression that was a very good example of "mudflation" ... what we old timers used to call power creep ... was when my guild first took down Ragnaros.

    I upgraded my dagger from a blue heartseeker to the purple Perdition's Blade.

    EVERYTHING on that new dagger was substantially better. Stats AND damage AND process effect. That's vertical progression.

    Adding another ancillary bonus to a phaser beam array that does the same base damage, that's how cryptic has had this game designed from day one.

    No, that's still vertical progression, fairly minor, but still vertical progression. White gear is not as good, and thusly not as desirable as Elite Fleet Gear. That is by nature, vertical progression.

    True horizontal progression is exemplified with Team Fortress 2. This is the default Rocket Launcher. This is the Black Box. Both do the same amount of damage, but the Black Box gives you +15 health every time you hit some one. That seems better right? However, it also comes with one less Rocket. Default has 4, Black Box only has 3.

    In STO, you will never ever go back to using white gear after unlocking Elite Fleet gear. In TF2, many if not most players (including myself) still like to use the default Rocket Launcher. That's what Horizontal progression is.

    STO is a lot kinder in it's vertical progression, but it's still a hill to climb.
  • stardestroyer001stardestroyer001 Member Posts: 2,615 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    bareel wrote: »
    It is a rough idea I admit. But the question I guess I have at the end is...

    Is the ability to continue to progress your character important to your enjoyment of STO?

    I have only one thing to say on this matter (not to say your ideas were bad; they seem thought-out, which is good!).

    The current level 50 maximum works.

    Please, don't fix what isn't broken.
    stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
    Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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  • aloishammeraloishammer Member Posts: 3,294 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Please, don't fix what isn't broken.

    If it ain't broken, that's only because Cryptic hasn't gotten around to "revamping" it yet. :(
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I have only one thing to say on this matter (not to say your ideas were bad; they seem thought-out, which is good!).

    The current level 50 maximum works.

    Please, don't fix what isn't broken.

    Don't get me wrong, I do not want a level cap increase at all.

    But I do thing some way to continue to improve your character after level 50, even if the improvement is very minimal, is a very good thing.

    With the revamped reputation the only location we can look to for that progression is the new fleet holdings and their +1 gear. Sure you might find horizontal progression options with new reputation passives and gear that suit your build/playstyle better but they will not be strait up power increases.

    Only Fleet Holdings. That actually makes it even worse than I thought... :(


    For the Diablo 3 Paragon example. For a paragon point (one level) you can gain +5 dexterity. My character from gear already has several thousand dexterity so it is a very very minor increase.

    *Final Edit I Swear*
    To me progression is an integral part of the RPG experience. It is part of what makes an RPG an RPG. The accumulation of character power growth. It is not something that is always the 'focus' of the game, in fact the best RPGs keep it in the back round and engage the player with story and game play.

    But it is still a part of what makes RPGs enjoyable for many. I mean honestly if progression isn't important than why don't we all just start at max level? Because the journey is core, and it is represented by character progression. Without that progression element the game begins to miss something even if it is hard to notice.

    Then again many players of STO may not like the RPG element to begin with and would much rather have a strait up adventure/story style game. But it is an MMO-RPG and that is part of what I enjoy about it.
  • willamsheridanwillamsheridan Member Posts: 1,189 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Progression might be a vital part of some RPG but it can also be horitontal. And yes the Rep. systems give you advantages and if you get to Tier 5 in all Rep. systems you can modify your ship like Crazy and change between as many builds as you want.

    Vertical progression is stupid.it just means more grinding and i dont want to have another Rep. system or another Tier in all of them. And it means insane costs again because if you wanna be one of the best again you need another ship, new euipmend and that meand girinding, grinding, grinding. For what? Grinding for the grind itself? With no way to put the equipment tu good use? if theymake anothercap increase i delete my Klingons, probably my romulans and maybe even quit at all because i see no reason in another DPS increase or more grinding.

    More missions and less XP for the missions so you dont reach level 50 before you play the cardassian storyline would be great
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    bareel wrote: »
    *Final Edit I Swear*
    To me progression is an integral part of the RPG experience. It is part of what makes an RPG an RPG. The accumulation of character power growth. It is not something that is always the 'focus' of the game, in fact the best RPGs keep it in the back round and engage the player with story and game play.

    But it is still a part of what makes RPGs enjoyable for many. I mean honestly if progression isn't important than why don't we all just start at max level? Because the journey is core, and it is represented by character progression. Without that progression element the game begins to miss something even if it is hard to notice.

    Then again many players of STO may not like the RPG element to begin with and would much rather have a strait up adventure/story style game. But it is an MMO-RPG and that is part of what I enjoy about it.

    No, I think I understand now. It's the same reason that TF2 has Strange and Unusual quality items, DotA 2 has Unusual and Inscribed items, APB has Joker tickets, so on and so forth. Much like Paragon levels these really add nothing to your character in the grand scheme of things, and are really just bragging rights rewards for people that are willing to put a lot of time and effort into those respective games.

    And you know what, Bareel is right, STO doesn't have anything like that. Sure, completing all the Reputations are, but due to how STO is set up you're really expected to complete them all eventually. That's nothing compared to owning a Hales Own Baby Faces Blaster*.

    (*Meaning getting 8500 kills with a gun that prevents you from jumping)

    STO kinda sorta has Accolade Points that are granted from various Accolades, but there's no way to show which Accolades you have, and it's very difficult to see how many Accolade Points someone else has. Many people also don't even know they exist, so not really the same thing.

    Hmmmmmm.... If STO were more PvP focused we could have things similar to TF2 and DotA, but currently it's rather... not. This makes Lockbox ships and items the "bragging rights reward" but they are viewed much differently in this community. This is much more interesting that I thought it was going to be, I'm not sure what to do, I need to think about this.
  • omegaphallicomegaphallic Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I don't think levels 50 to 60 will create another tier of ships. Maybe new types of tier 5 ships you can access, but not tier 6.

    And yes there will likely be new skills, but they might be orinated to a new style of Game play instead of combat I doubt know.

    Sonas long as what they do is interesting, I support raising the level to 60.

    And I don't believe reputation will gain another tier, there is no connection between level sixty and rep 6 tiers.
  • phoeniciusphoenicius Member Posts: 762 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I don't think levels 50 to 60 will create another tier of ships. Maybe new types of tier 5 ships you can access, but not tier 6.

    And yes there will likely be new skills, but they might be orinated to a new style of Game play instead of combat I doubt know.

    Sonas long as what they do is interesting, I support raising the level to 60.

    And I don't believe reputation will gain another tier, there is no connection between level sixty and rep 6 tiers.

    they already said there won't be a "T6" , it would also make ships like the odyssey, bortas and vesta old(and they are supposed to be state of the art and the 2 first the freaking flagships).

    on the other hand i can totally see them letting us command a mini-fleet with boffs commanding other ships we have, and making a theoretical level 60 a requirement for that.
  • nathraelnathrael Member Posts: 264 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    If they do bring in fleet command they should **only** have it in special missions/STF's, otherwise the power creep will shoot up like a speed addict.

    Maybe even have a Level 60 only sector block?

    Honestly I am undecided on whether a level increase would be good or bad. It could go either way, depending on how it was executed.
  • edited March 2014
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  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    skollulfr wrote: »
    nope, thats definatly linear/vertical progression since each mod is an added bonus.

    horizontal would be going from phaser to tetryon to plasma. all diferent, though unfortunately, well tested as not being equal.

    Yes, this, theoretically, would be horizontal progression. But it's not. Poor Phasers. :(
  • fovrelfovrel Member Posts: 1,448 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Vertical progression is character growth, the character becomes stronger by getting more abillities or stronger abillities. rank 1, rank 2 etc. Horizontal progression is in fact no progression. It is widening the game world, more stories, missions, projects, more stuff to do for the character.

    I am for horizontal progression. vertical progression, the leveling path should have an end. If the character gets stronger and stronger, the opponents should also get stronger. This means the game stays the same only the numbers get bigger. A lot of people seem to take that as an improvement.

    Why should leveling have an end? I see the character in one way as a tool. Just as a craftsman doesn't need more or better tools to do the job; At some point he has his tools for the job, any.

    A middle form of progression is specialization. The character gets stronger at one point at the cost of another, stronger here, weaker there. Although it might add flavour, the problem I have with this kind of character development is the fact that almost always the characters have to go through the same game content, classes, specialized characters, but then what is the purpose of this diversity if everybody has to do everything and perform well?
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Skyrim has sort of both vertical and horizontal. All skills level vertically as you use them, but since you're limited to three skill based items in combat, (Armor, and two weapons/spells) that makes it more horizontal when in combat.

    I don't know how that example helps us, but it exists.
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