Like I said upthread...the PvP community serves a great purpose for helping figure out bugs, but because it's an area of responsibility of a few particlar devs, THEIR opinions about changes hold a disproportionate amount of influence. And that sucks.
By "THEIR" do you mean the few particular devs? Or do you really think that the PVP community, many of whom curse the majority of the additions after S1.2, has any relevant influence on the devs? In fact I'm quite certain that if we had a vote and the PVPers had to decide whether "The devs listen to us." or "The devs are actively trying to hurt PVP." reflects their impression of the devs more closely, the latter option would win.
Hey dude...I just wanted to say I appreciate your thoughtful and genuine responses. It's nice to see someone openly exchange with players again. Thanks.
PS - can you PLZ bump the plasma resist on the Borg Shield to %20 to at least give it parity with the other sets? It makes no sense that it's 15% STIL....
This. The individual borg pieces are poor compared to the other sets. The only reason to wear them was for the set bonus. Take that away and, well. We all know what became of the borg torpedo post "fix".
This. The individual borg pieces are poor compared to the other sets. The only reason to wear them was for the set bonus. Take that away and, well. We all know what became of the borg torpedo post "fix".
Part of the thread for Rep Passives -> Rep Traits revamp mentions that we should be getting details on the hardware changes soon as well. There may be other changes to the individual set pieces that...well, don't result in uncontrollable outbursts of laughter.
Casual doesn't mean there is no coordination. Single player means there's no coordination. STO's not a single player game. One can play without doing any group content and thus play it as a single player game, but the moment one hits up a single queue for group content - they need to put that single player mentality aside...because it's group content.
And it's my contention that group content is an illusion. It's the semblance of doing things together, at best. The combined pew-pew will help; but look at Mirror Event again: even if a group does *very* poorly, it's set up to not truly fail: you'll just get a few less marks, is all.
That kind of mentality is why things can fall apart in things that would stand no chance of falling apart if folks paid the slightest little bit of attention to there being other players there...that they're in a group and it's no longer single player content.
Agreed. But wanting ppl to coordinate, and them actually doing so, not the same thing.
If folks go into group content with a single player mentality...that's on the player. They've got nobody else to blame but themselves, while all of those that realized that they've gone into group content can quite easily point to the player(s) that didn't and do an epic /facepalm.
Except that most PUG-ers don't even read their chat. Or get extremely rude and defensive when things are being pointed out to them. And, worse, half the time the things pointed out to them are wrong themselves too. So, communication is simply not something you can rely on in a PUG.
What's the difference between a Mirror group that's twiddling their thumbs for 3+ minutes and a group that's watched the Station get obliterated for the third+ time? Both are PUGs...neither's a premade...both are casual...neither's hardcore...one group just realized that they're a group instead of thinking that it's single player content. They try to coordinate in the least...and wham, bam, damn - twiddle thumb time.
And this is all great, and all true. But my point remains: I rejoice when it happens, but it's not something you can count on to happen. Ironically, it's ppl's selfishness that makes them work together at least a bit: so everyone (read: they themselves) profits.
You take two PUGs...two casual PUGs over in PvP...the one that at least tries to work together is likely to have the better chance to win, no?
I would say: yes. Like in Mirror Event, if peeps pay just the slightest bit of attention (and don't both work on closing the same rift, and all), things go a lot better. I would say premade teams magnify the efficiency and speed at which it can be done.
Cryptic changed the team abilities to encourage less selfish play from their players. Cryptic's testing the Mirror event and the Undine stuff with interaction to encourage less selfish play from their players.
And kudos on them for trying!
...the folks that work as a group get it done - the folks that are stuck in a selfish single player mode...those groups tend to run into issues.
Yup. But working as a group requires a certain mindset that many outside of PvP are not privy too.
You queue for a 5-man thing, duh - there's 4 other people there...maybe they're meant to work together?
Yup, they're supposed to work together; but they rarely do, is my point. And that the discipline and willingness to do so is far more present amongst die-hard PvP folks, used to work together coordinatedly, than among casual PvE-players.
If somebody doesn't want to work with somebody else...then they shouldn't queue...
Or, as Cryptic knows, they queue anyway, and Cryptic ensures they will rarely ever fail, regardless of their selfishness.
Casual is, and always be, at the heart of all. Frankly, I don't even understand why PvP exists in this game. It's a good thing it does (else, who would teach the masses how to fit properly?). But PvE-ers, as a group, will, by their very nature, never be as coordinated as PvP-ers. Hence, as I pointed out, Cryptic, by necessity, needs to keep them individually self-reliant for the most part.
Casual is, and always be, at the heart of all. Frankly, I don't even understand why PvP exists in this game. It's a good thing it does (else, who would teach the masses how to fot properly?). But PvE-ers, as a group, will, by their very nature, never be as coordinated as PvP-ers. Hence, as I pointed out, Cryptic, by necessity, needs to keep them individually self-reliant for the most part.
I just don't see that...coordination.
PvP folks might have to adapt more, because PvP tends to be more dynamic than PvE - but some of the intricate dances that PvE folks need to learn require a great deal of coordination on their part or it fails. Those PvE DPS records aren't happening without a bunch of coordination. As noted, PvE content in the game goes better with some form of coordination - the more the better...but it's still coordination all the same.
And that's not a casual or hardcore thing to me. The level of coordination is definitely casual or hardcore in many games - but even there, that's not going to be a PvP or PvE thing.
The main thing that separates PvP and PvE is the dynamic nature of the two. You can't learn an overall dance for PvP...sure, there might be all the little dances that take place as things go back and forth - but it's not the same overall dance. That's it...imho.
Casual/Hardcore...applies to both. Coordination...applies to both.
It's group content...so there's a requirement for some form of coordination. There's going to be both casual and hardcore PvP.
Heh, you can hit up the PvP queues for some PUG action and see just as little coordination as one will find in the PvE queues...cause it's the players, not that they PvP or PvE.
So out of curiosity, does this work out to around a 40% reduction? Basically what was proposed back on Jan 6th, 2012? I saw one person post their numbers somewhere, and it appeared to be 60% of what it was...but I hadn't seen anybody else post numbers. Maybe somebody did in this thread, but I didn't look at this until after it was moved...
I've posted some numbers in the Tribble notes thread. It amounts to about 40% reduction in heals for an Odyssey and almost 45% reduction for an Ar'Kif.
Guess I should also see how a Hegh'ta fairs with it now.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
I've posted some numbers in the Tribble notes thread. It amounts to about 40% reduction in heals for an Odyssey and almost 45% reduction for an Ar'Kif.
Guess I should also see how a Hegh'ta fairs with it now.
Thanks for that info. That's kind of curious - would have expected based on what they were saying that the biggest loss would be felt on the Cruisers/Carriers...and with the Ar'Kif being a Warbird/Escort Carrier sort of thing, that it would have been in middle with less of a loss than Cruisers but more of a loss compared to...yep, a Hegh'ta would be a good example boat on the bottom end of things. Thanks again.
Thanks for that info. That's kind of curious - would have expected based on what they were saying that the biggest loss would be felt on the Cruisers/Carriers...and with the Ar'Kif being a Warbird/Escort Carrier sort of thing, that it would have been in middle with less of a loss than Cruisers but more of a loss compared to...yep, a Hegh'ta would be a good example boat on the bottom end of things. Thanks again.
Yup. And therewith the bubble that Escorts and all should ere benefit (!) from the nerf is busted. Why, O why, did I even believe it in the first place?!
Yup. And therewith the bubble that Escorts and all should ere benefit (!) from the nerf is busted. Why, O why, did I even believe it in the first place?!
Hull: Cruiser > Escort > Science Vessel
With doubledipping, Cruiser would see the largest hit - then Escort - then Science Vessel...
* The mindset that ppl need to start healing each other, whilst commendable, is outside of PvE reality. Getting healed by another person is, at best, something that happens every once in a very while (so much so, that I always go out of my way to thank ppl in chat when they do). It *is* a PvP reality, however. PvP should not encroach on PvE (see below).
Yes, for now it is. You don't seems to realise, that the status quo can be changed. Introduce game mechanics that encourage certain behavior. For instance, increase pressure damage of NPCs, but reduce one-hit-kills. This would make a more tankier ship actually useful and get players at least a bit away from one existing monotone playstyle. Saying that it is, what it is now, so there's no need to change anything is just lazy at best.
Again ignoring the personal putdown, reality is, that you and are your PvP buddies are a very small minority: a game-stub, if you will. So, I'd say you got your logic reversed: it is YOU who want to force a minority PvP-playstyle onto a vast, vast majority of PvE-ers. We, the gnashing of your teeth despite, outnumber you 99:1 (eagerly awaiting the "Those are not exact numbers!" retort). The good of the 99 outweigh the good of the 1, or the few.
Again ignoring, that every player vaguely interested in PvP also plays PvE on a regular basis and can also find enjoyment in its content. Changes to the PvE enviroment won't turn it into PvP or considerably worsen the overall experience, if at all (prob. the opposite). What would you say if a change is implemented, that 80% of the playerbase supports and which actually came from the PvP community? Would you still feel that this change can't be integrated solely on the basis, that it came from the PvP community? This would be the base definition of ad hominem. It shouldn't matter if the community only makes up 1% of the overall population of this title. If the suggestion is sound then it should be implemented.
* What you cheapishly call self-entitlement, I simply call 'the reasonable expectation that certain items no longer get nerfed when their current operation has been allowed/condoned for such a long time, that people were justified in believing the devs were okay with how it's working, and that (sometines considerable) investments made therein should not haphazardly be made worthless, subsidiarily, be made worth much less.''
That should suffice for now.
This is an MMO. They are always subject to change. That is even written in the EULA under article 7.
Okay, outside of the it would be nifty if folks shared heals aspect of things - what about people simply healing themselves?
For me, personally, not an issue. I'm an Engineer. Between HE2, and double-dip MW, I'm usually back up within seconds. Others may have a harder time of it.
Hull: Cruiser > Escort > Science Vessel
With doubledipping, Cruiser would see the largest hit - then Escort - then Science Vessel...
In Cryptic's defense, I'm not sure what an Ark'if Carrier is exactly. It's more Escort, IMHO, than a Carrier (in the sense that a Recluse is a true Carrier). Destroyer-like, with a pet.
P.S. On the matter of PvE coordination, I present to you Exhibit A :P
Some of those Mirror threads are just so painful. But I wouldn't call them casual players and thus excuse the lack of coordination...because plenty of casual players do it fine.
Yes, for now it is. You don't seems to realise, that the status quo can be changed. Introduce game mechanics that encourage certain behavior. For instance, increase pressure damage of NPCs, but reduce one-hit-kills. This would make a more tankier ship actually useful and get players at least a bit away from one existing monotone playstyle. Saying that it is, what it is now, so there's no need to change anything is just lazy at best.
It will probably surprise you, but I would welcome such change!
I'm not saying change shouldn't occur; but with the casual 'Let me just go pew-pew for a few hours' PvE mentality of the average player, Cryptic will do little to nothing to truly antagonize those people, lest they lose them.
Again ignoring, that every player vaguely interested in PvP also plays PvE on a regular basis and can also find enjoyment in its content.
Not ignoring anything. My best PvE experiences have been with very experienced PvP folks: the kind that can blow a gate before I can turn my ship; or the ones that helped me get my NWS Accolade.
What would you say if a change is implemented, that 80% of the playerbase supports and which actually came from the PvP community?
If 80% of the playerbase supported is, the origin of the idea would be moot.
It shouldn't matter if the community only makes up 1% of the overall population of this title. If the suggestion is sound then it should be implemented.
Absolutely! Even if it were just 1 person making a good suggestion, it should not be ignored out of hand. Just so long as that 1% you mention doesn't serve the playstyle of said 1% only.
For me, personally, not an issue. I'm an Engineer. Between HE2, and double-dip MW, I'm usually back up within seconds. Others may have a harder time of it.
In the end, it's a choice. I guess I've always tended toward being able to heal myself - between the solo-grinding, PUG PvE, and PUG PvP...yeah, I've leaned toward having heals. If folks build fragile, they'll be fragile...and it's one thing to build fragile if you know you've got a pocket healer and it's another to head off into PUGland with it.
Absolutely! Even if it were just 1 person making a good suggestion, it should not be ignored out of hand. Just so long as that 1% you mention doesn't serve the playstyle of said 1% only.
So then why not support this change? It may change the overall game enviroment to actually encourage healing or the more wide spread use of boff healing powers. Not just for self-healing, but also for team heals. This change in player attitude won't come over night, but at least it would be a step in a new direction.
Also, if this is a nerf, then cryptic is actually showing, that they are willing to rebalance the game and thus changing the game enviroment.
^^ Not specifically aimed at you in person, but this here is precisely why the PvP community should have *no* say in anything whatsoever.
Not kidding. All y'all are playing a different game. PvE is, and always will be, an individualistic endeavour for casual players. Period. 'Casual' means people don't fly in premade teams; 'casual' means there is no coordination (or, if there is, it's extremely minimal, and can never be relied on being a given). That's the crux of the whole story.
And that is why the PvP community should have *no* say in anything whatsoever. It's not that I wouldn't want some more coordination in PvE, but it's not going to happen. Ever. The casual aspect just inherently precludes that from ever taking place.
And that's why it's so annoying to see droves of PvP-ers come in, elitistly lecturing the PvE-er, how lazy they are, and need crutches, haha. And I can never get thru their thick skulls: that the way the game is set up, Cryptic has no choice, really, but to ensure the casual player is, and always can be, entirely self-reliant. PvE is designed in such a manner, that it almost looks like you need others, but it will never happen for realz. Imagine Mirror Event, and truly *only* cruisers could Initiate the Power Transfer: the ensuing chaos and rage would be enormous, simply because it's a PUG, and you can't rely on premade roles and coordination.
So, to whomever it may concern, stop trying to force your PvP-playstyle on the PvE community. You are a small minority (what? 1% of the playersbase). I have the greatest respect for your collective knowledge; but, to put it politely, GTFOML!
/me, initializes her Tachyon Beam, and tries to force the PvP community back to their own realm.
I'm sorry you feel this way....but I have no idea how you get to your conclusions...
I'm sorry you feel this way....but I have no idea how you get to your conclusions...
Well, for one, because balance only has meaning within PvP. Nobody in PvE -- jealousy aside -- has ever given a hoot about someone having a Valdore console, or being able to use the 2-piece Borg heals.
All the calls for nerfs for these items only stem from a community to whom 1-on-1 player fights matter.
Well, for one, because balance only has meaning within PvP. Nobody in PvE -- jealousy aside -- has ever given a hoot about someone having a Valdore console, or being able to use the 2-piece Borg heals.
All the calls for nerfs for these items only stem from a community to whom 1-on-1 player fights matter.
No. The valdore console in particular is basically an i win button, when doing the CE. The problem is, that it always overheals and subsequently boost your score to high heaven, the more damage you deal.
That's part of the reason why people think, it's so overpowered. You literally get payed for doing one single thing very well without any downside. And then it's limited to a specific faction/ship class.
Can you really say you like a STF where one high dps ship does everything for you? I for one like to actually play the game and not watch it unfold in front of me. And that's the problem with these high powered passive self heals. You just go full dps without any drawback. Before the introduction of those passives ships were fairly well balanced against each other. Cruisers could tank and it was appreciated. Sci-vessels could (to a limited degree) also (shield-)tank and exact croud control and escorts were fragile little damage dealers. These roles still exist, but there is just no need for them anymore. This "need" doesn't even have to be forced, more like an incentive to complete an objective faster if a certain class is present or an enemy more easily overcome because not everyone is constantly dying.
With the valdore console equipped you become actually more unkillable the more damage you do. Why even choose another career but tactical? Why even slot a single healing ability, when you can simply pack as much passive heals as possible and then just blast your way mindlessly through nearly every PvE content in existence?
No. The valdore console in particular is basically an i win button, when doing the CE. The problem is, that it always overheals and subsequently boost your score to high heaven, the more damage you deal.
That's part of the reason why people think, it's so overpowered. You literally get payed for doing one single thing very well without any downside. And then it's limited to a specific faction/ship class.
Can you really say you like a STF where one high dps ship does everything for you? I for one like to actually play the game and not watch it unfold in front of me. And that's the problem with these high powered passive self heals. You just go full dps without any drawback. Before the introduction of those passives ships were fairly well balanced against each other. Cruisers could tank and it was appreciated. Sci-vessels could (to a limited degree) also (shield-)tank and exact croud control and escorts were fragile little damage dealers. These roles still exist, but there is just no need for them anymore. This "need" doesn't even have to be forced, more like an incentive to complete an objective faster if a certain class is present or an enemy more easily overcome because not everyone is constantly dying.
With the valdore console equipped you become actually more unkillable the more damage you do. Why even choose another career but tactical? Why even slot a single healing ability, when you can simply pack as much passive heals as possible and then just blast your way mindlessly through nearly every PvE content in existence?
The problem has never been ships that couldn't heal so well vs. others that could: that was all marginal to begin with. EvE Online is the only one who got it right in this regard. You fly a smaller, more agile ship? Fine, but you'll get significantly less hull, and significantly smaller (!) weapons. STO especially fubarred on the latter: an Escort should not be able to fit the same big weapons as a battleship can. And should really have like 1/4th the hull of the latter.
I was around before all those passives were introduced; still, nobody ever needed me, the Engineer to heal them; and back then ppl sighed as well when a Sci ship showed up in PvE. This game simply favors only 1 thing: DPS.
As for the Valdore specifically, I have a fully leveled up Tact Rom now, with the Valdore. It's decidedly good, but I still tank better with my Fed Engineer.
And tanking? People DPS-tank these days: my CEO, somewhat of a renowned NWS player, to put it mildly, flies ships without the Valdore, and only a single copy of EPtS1 (and without any DCE's, even). How is that possible, you ask? Simple: he kills everything in sight before it gets a chance to even hit, let alone hurt, him.
I was around before all those passives were introduced; still, nobody ever needed me, the Engineer to heal them; and back then ppl sighed as well when a Sci ship showed up in PvE. This game simply favors only 1 thing: DPS.
As for the Valdore specifically, I have a fully leveled up Tact Rom now, with the Valdore. It's decidedly good, but I still tank better with my Fed Engineer.
Don't take this personally, but "you are not the one person balance is measured against". I looked at the table mancom provided: http://1drv.ms/1gpafYZ. The valdore console would double my shield healing. Considering i have 3 shield heals equiped, this seems a tad much. I have that much equipped for PvE and can tank the tac cube if i have to, but why even bother with those abilities, if i could just use these 3 ability slots for offense. This is just one more reason why people feel the need to dps.
Imagine that the Solonae 3-piece didn't have a maximum amount of damage healed and no lockout period. You'd never need anything else (though this set-bonus could actually use a buff). And then we have the Valdore console with a even higher chance to proc, a lot larger heal per proc and no lockout period. And that heal is for shields, which are in general far more damage absorbing then bare hull. Nerfing this console wouldn't even have to be completely overboard. Give it a heal ceiling and a lockout period and done.
And tanking? People DPS-tank these days: my CEO, somewhat of a renowned NWS player, to put it mildly, flies ships without the Valdore, and only a single copy of EPtS1 (and without any DCE's, even). How is that possible, you ask? Simple: he kills everything in sight before it gets a chance to even hit, let alone hurt, him.
Yes and the valdore is part of the problem. People can dps-tank, because they can pack more offensive abilities and just have to loose one eng or sci console slot for it.
BTW: Everyone does dps tank in NWS. You throw a grav well and focus kill 3 or 4 ships so that their warp core breaches kill the rest, but that's just possible because of the way the waves spawn.
Well, for one, because balance only has meaning within PvP. Nobody in PvE -- jealousy aside -- has ever given a hoot about someone having a Valdore console, or being able to use the 2-piece Borg heals.
All the calls for nerfs for these items only stem from a community to whom 1-on-1 player fights matter.
Hmm, I don't care much about others having the Valdore console or the 2-piece borg in an STF, however I'm not happy when a Scimitar shows up. Unless I have a really good day (or the player in a Scimitar has little idea what he's doing), I'm struggling to get any decent DPS as everything melts before I can even target it...
I could get the Scimitar (there's not so many interesting C-Store ships I lack at this point, anyway), but i just refuse to get it because of it's OPness (and the 30% larger size!). It's effectively damaging my gameplay experience, you could say, and I'm nowhere near a PvPer.
EDIT: And so my post is at least slightly informative, posting new results of the Autonomous regen sequence on Tribble (as of today) compared to Holodeck:
Mirror Vor'cha: 1259,74 vs. 2115,55, so a loss of about 40,5%
Hegh'ta: 875,17 vs. 1287,3, so a loss of about 32,0%
Odyssey: 1392,31 vs. 2252,77, so a loss of about 38,2%
Fun fact, in the previous numbers I posted (from like last week on Tribble), I've gotten 1470,92 repeatedly on the very same Odyssey. Another retuning, Adjudicatorhawk?
Also, I have mistakenly considered the value on Holodeck for the Odyssey as over 2300, in fact I looked at a fluke value due to probably Eng fleet being active (that one raises eng skills slightly, right?). herefore, the nerf to the Odyssey is actually lower than I reported.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
I could get the Scimitar (there's not so many interesting C-Store ships I lack at this point, anyway), but i just refuse to get it because of it's OPness (and the 30% larger size!).
That's very sportmanslike of you, tbh.
I have a Rom now too, but I didn't get a Scimitar because of its ridiculously large, epeen bounding box, which always annoys me too when I get bumped out of my way by it.
EDIT: And so my post is at least slightly informative, posting new results of the Autonomous regen sequence on Tribble (as of today) compared to Holodeck:
Mirror Vor'cha: 1259,74 vs. 2115,55, so a loss of about 40,5%
Hegh'ta: 875,17 vs. 1287,3, so a loss of about 32,0%
Odyssey: 1392,31 vs. 2252,77, so a loss of about 38,2%
Fun fact, in the previous numbers I posted (from like last week on Tribble), I've gotten 1470,92 repeatedly on the very same Odyssey. Another retuning, Adjudicatorhawk?
Also, I have mistakenly considered the value on Holodeck for the Odyssey as over 2300, in fact I looked at a fluke value due to probably Eng fleet being active (that one raises eng skills slightly, right?). herefore, the nerf to the Odyssey is actually lower than I reported.
Thanks for the data! Not sure how you managed to calculate this, but has anyone (you?) tried this on a Mobius too?
No. The valdore console in particular is basically an i win button, when doing the CE.
... sniff ...
The problem is,
Doh. So you get 1st place in CE Elite and manage to collect 60 marks (as everybody else) and purple mk x science console with average exchange value slightly less than it's vendor value of whole total 7k. Or a deflector. But, hey, Im happy with deflector: 20 deflectors - 1 million
Epic lootz without a doubt.
So for the life of me I do not see the problem.
"I win"? Yeah... Well... The valdore console is kinda a bit op, but they been tweaking it for the last 6 months as I own it. And sometimes it's no heals at all, and sometimes just plenty. Not to mention an annoying tendency of giving tonnes of shield heals when shields are full, and no heals whatsoevar when your shields are low. Go figure...
As for CEE, if taking 1st place in CEE boosts your confidence, then by all means. Everybody else is just playing it for nukara/fleet marks as the only dungeon with choice of marks and not timegated completion. Have to say that CEE was 1 on my list of "most boring dungeons that I haz to grind" before new mirror event took its place.
Doh. So you get 1st place in CE Elite and manage to collect 60 marks (as everybody else) and purple mk x science console with average exchange value slightly less than it's vendor value of whole total 7k. Or a deflector. But, hey, Im happy with deflector: 20 deflectors - 1 million
Epic lootz without a doubt.
So for the life of me I do not see the problem.
As for CEE, if taking 1st place in CEE boosts your confidence, then by all means. Everybody else is just playing it for nukara/fleet marks as the only dungeon with choice of marks and not timegated completion. Have to say that CEE was 1 on my list of "most boring dungeons that I haz to grind" before new mirror event took its place.
Yeah, or 2 mk xi purple tactical consoles. There's always a variance in loot. By your standards there is nearly no mission that isn't boring to play. In the case of CE it doesn't even have to heal on time, it just has to heal enough over the course of the mission to give you the most healing. The problem ist that it's one console power that completely undermines how the event is balanced.
"I win"? Yeah... Well... The valdore console is kinda a bit op, but they been tweaking it for the last 6 months as I own it. And sometimes it's no heals at all, and sometimes just plenty. Not to mention an annoying tendency of giving tonnes of shield heals when shields are full, and no heals whatsoevar when your shields are low. Go figure...
So you actually have to slot a shield healing power to keep your shields up? Wow, what an inconvenience. The fact of the matter is, that this one console heals as much as a ST 3 or TSS 3 (abilities that full healers are using). Abilities which have a lot higher opportunity costs attached to them. And that's what it all comes down to. If the opportunity cost for an ability is a lot lower then that of a comparable ability then it's just broken.
Thanks for the data! Not sure how you managed to calculate this, but has anyone (you?) tried this on a Mobius too?
Combatlog. And I'm pretty sure all the Holodeck values are accurate base values on my ships, as well as the Mirror Vor'cha and Odyssey Tribble numbers (because they're based on several combatlogs across months and even years for some builds).
Only the Hegh'ta new nerfed value might have been a fluke as I've only gotten the proc once on it (although to my knowledge, the character and build in question shouldn't have anything capable to alter hull points or hull heals in a single player environment).
And sadly, I don't own any Lobi/Lockbox/Fleet ships currently, so I can't comment on how a Moebius would fare. (And I don't dare hazard a guess as the changes don't seem to be following a simple pattern.)
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Comments
This. The individual borg pieces are poor compared to the other sets. The only reason to wear them was for the set bonus. Take that away and, well. We all know what became of the borg torpedo post "fix".
Part of the thread for Rep Passives -> Rep Traits revamp mentions that we should be getting details on the hardware changes soon as well. There may be other changes to the individual set pieces that...well, don't result in uncontrollable outbursts of laughter.
And it's my contention that group content is an illusion. It's the semblance of doing things together, at best. The combined pew-pew will help; but look at Mirror Event again: even if a group does *very* poorly, it's set up to not truly fail: you'll just get a few less marks, is all.
Agreed. But wanting ppl to coordinate, and them actually doing so, not the same thing.
Except that most PUG-ers don't even read their chat. Or get extremely rude and defensive when things are being pointed out to them. And, worse, half the time the things pointed out to them are wrong themselves too. So, communication is simply not something you can rely on in a PUG.
And this is all great, and all true. But my point remains: I rejoice when it happens, but it's not something you can count on to happen. Ironically, it's ppl's selfishness that makes them work together at least a bit: so everyone (read: they themselves) profits.
I would say: yes. Like in Mirror Event, if peeps pay just the slightest bit of attention (and don't both work on closing the same rift, and all), things go a lot better. I would say premade teams magnify the efficiency and speed at which it can be done.
And kudos on them for trying!
Yup. But working as a group requires a certain mindset that many outside of PvP are not privy too.
Yup, they're supposed to work together; but they rarely do, is my point. And that the discipline and willingness to do so is far more present amongst die-hard PvP folks, used to work together coordinatedly, than among casual PvE-players.
Or, as Cryptic knows, they queue anyway, and Cryptic ensures they will rarely ever fail, regardless of their selfishness.
Casual is, and always be, at the heart of all. Frankly, I don't even understand why PvP exists in this game. It's a good thing it does (else, who would teach the masses how to fit properly?). But PvE-ers, as a group, will, by their very nature, never be as coordinated as PvP-ers. Hence, as I pointed out, Cryptic, by necessity, needs to keep them individually self-reliant for the most part.
I just don't see that...coordination.
PvP folks might have to adapt more, because PvP tends to be more dynamic than PvE - but some of the intricate dances that PvE folks need to learn require a great deal of coordination on their part or it fails. Those PvE DPS records aren't happening without a bunch of coordination. As noted, PvE content in the game goes better with some form of coordination - the more the better...but it's still coordination all the same.
And that's not a casual or hardcore thing to me. The level of coordination is definitely casual or hardcore in many games - but even there, that's not going to be a PvP or PvE thing.
The main thing that separates PvP and PvE is the dynamic nature of the two. You can't learn an overall dance for PvP...sure, there might be all the little dances that take place as things go back and forth - but it's not the same overall dance. That's it...imho.
Casual/Hardcore...applies to both. Coordination...applies to both.
It's group content...so there's a requirement for some form of coordination. There's going to be both casual and hardcore PvP.
Heh, you can hit up the PvP queues for some PUG action and see just as little coordination as one will find in the PvE queues...cause it's the players, not that they PvP or PvE.
Okay, please make me a list of any logical arguments you have for not supporting the bugfix concerning the borg set. A simple list
I've posted some numbers in the Tribble notes thread. It amounts to about 40% reduction in heals for an Odyssey and almost 45% reduction for an Ar'Kif.
Guess I should also see how a Hegh'ta fairs with it now.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Thanks for that info. That's kind of curious - would have expected based on what they were saying that the biggest loss would be felt on the Cruisers/Carriers...and with the Ar'Kif being a Warbird/Escort Carrier sort of thing, that it would have been in middle with less of a loss than Cruisers but more of a loss compared to...yep, a Hegh'ta would be a good example boat on the bottom end of things. Thanks again.
Yup. And therewith the bubble that Escorts and all should ere benefit (!) from the nerf is busted. Why, O why, did I even believe it in the first place?!
Okay, outside of the it would be nifty if folks shared heals aspect of things - what about people simply healing themselves?
Hull: Cruiser > Escort > Science Vessel
With doubledipping, Cruiser would see the largest hit - then Escort - then Science Vessel...
Yes, for now it is. You don't seems to realise, that the status quo can be changed. Introduce game mechanics that encourage certain behavior. For instance, increase pressure damage of NPCs, but reduce one-hit-kills. This would make a more tankier ship actually useful and get players at least a bit away from one existing monotone playstyle. Saying that it is, what it is now, so there's no need to change anything is just lazy at best.
Again ignoring, that every player vaguely interested in PvP also plays PvE on a regular basis and can also find enjoyment in its content. Changes to the PvE enviroment won't turn it into PvP or considerably worsen the overall experience, if at all (prob. the opposite). What would you say if a change is implemented, that 80% of the playerbase supports and which actually came from the PvP community? Would you still feel that this change can't be integrated solely on the basis, that it came from the PvP community? This would be the base definition of ad hominem. It shouldn't matter if the community only makes up 1% of the overall population of this title. If the suggestion is sound then it should be implemented.
This is an MMO. They are always subject to change. That is even written in the EULA under article 7.
For me, personally, not an issue. I'm an Engineer. Between HE2, and double-dip MW, I'm usually back up within seconds. Others may have a harder time of it.
In Cryptic's defense, I'm not sure what an Ark'if Carrier is exactly. It's more Escort, IMHO, than a Carrier (in the sense that a Recluse is a true Carrier). Destroyer-like, with a pet.
Some of those Mirror threads are just so painful. But I wouldn't call them casual players and thus excuse the lack of coordination...because plenty of casual players do it fine.
It will probably surprise you, but I would welcome such change!
I'm not saying change shouldn't occur; but with the casual 'Let me just go pew-pew for a few hours' PvE mentality of the average player, Cryptic will do little to nothing to truly antagonize those people, lest they lose them.
Not ignoring anything. My best PvE experiences have been with very experienced PvP folks: the kind that can blow a gate before I can turn my ship; or the ones that helped me get my NWS Accolade.
If 80% of the playerbase supported is, the origin of the idea would be moot.
Absolutely! Even if it were just 1 person making a good suggestion, it should not be ignored out of hand. Just so long as that 1% you mention doesn't serve the playstyle of said 1% only.
In the end, it's a choice. I guess I've always tended toward being able to heal myself - between the solo-grinding, PUG PvE, and PUG PvP...yeah, I've leaned toward having heals. If folks build fragile, they'll be fragile...and it's one thing to build fragile if you know you've got a pocket healer and it's another to head off into PUGland with it.
So then why not support this change? It may change the overall game enviroment to actually encourage healing or the more wide spread use of boff healing powers. Not just for self-healing, but also for team heals. This change in player attitude won't come over night, but at least it would be a step in a new direction.
Also, if this is a nerf, then cryptic is actually showing, that they are willing to rebalance the game and thus changing the game enviroment.
I'm sorry you feel this way....but I have no idea how you get to your conclusions...
Well, for one, because balance only has meaning within PvP. Nobody in PvE -- jealousy aside -- has ever given a hoot about someone having a Valdore console, or being able to use the 2-piece Borg heals.
All the calls for nerfs for these items only stem from a community to whom 1-on-1 player fights matter.
No. The valdore console in particular is basically an i win button, when doing the CE. The problem is, that it always overheals and subsequently boost your score to high heaven, the more damage you deal.
That's part of the reason why people think, it's so overpowered. You literally get payed for doing one single thing very well without any downside. And then it's limited to a specific faction/ship class.
Can you really say you like a STF where one high dps ship does everything for you? I for one like to actually play the game and not watch it unfold in front of me. And that's the problem with these high powered passive self heals. You just go full dps without any drawback. Before the introduction of those passives ships were fairly well balanced against each other. Cruisers could tank and it was appreciated. Sci-vessels could (to a limited degree) also (shield-)tank and exact croud control and escorts were fragile little damage dealers. These roles still exist, but there is just no need for them anymore. This "need" doesn't even have to be forced, more like an incentive to complete an objective faster if a certain class is present or an enemy more easily overcome because not everyone is constantly dying.
With the valdore console equipped you become actually more unkillable the more damage you do. Why even choose another career but tactical? Why even slot a single healing ability, when you can simply pack as much passive heals as possible and then just blast your way mindlessly through nearly every PvE content in existence?
Quote:
"The Galaxy Explorer would be fine if only it could execute it's saucer separation while moving."
-Nobody
LOL!
That is all. Please carry on.
The problem has never been ships that couldn't heal so well vs. others that could: that was all marginal to begin with. EvE Online is the only one who got it right in this regard. You fly a smaller, more agile ship? Fine, but you'll get significantly less hull, and significantly smaller (!) weapons. STO especially fubarred on the latter: an Escort should not be able to fit the same big weapons as a battleship can. And should really have like 1/4th the hull of the latter.
I was around before all those passives were introduced; still, nobody ever needed me, the Engineer to heal them; and back then ppl sighed as well when a Sci ship showed up in PvE. This game simply favors only 1 thing: DPS.
As for the Valdore specifically, I have a fully leveled up Tact Rom now, with the Valdore. It's decidedly good, but I still tank better with my Fed Engineer.
And tanking? People DPS-tank these days: my CEO, somewhat of a renowned NWS player, to put it mildly, flies ships without the Valdore, and only a single copy of EPtS1 (and without any DCE's, even). How is that possible, you ask? Simple: he kills everything in sight before it gets a chance to even hit, let alone hurt, him.
Don't take this personally, but "you are not the one person balance is measured against". I looked at the table mancom provided: http://1drv.ms/1gpafYZ. The valdore console would double my shield healing. Considering i have 3 shield heals equiped, this seems a tad much. I have that much equipped for PvE and can tank the tac cube if i have to, but why even bother with those abilities, if i could just use these 3 ability slots for offense. This is just one more reason why people feel the need to dps.
Imagine that the Solonae 3-piece didn't have a maximum amount of damage healed and no lockout period. You'd never need anything else (though this set-bonus could actually use a buff). And then we have the Valdore console with a even higher chance to proc, a lot larger heal per proc and no lockout period. And that heal is for shields, which are in general far more damage absorbing then bare hull. Nerfing this console wouldn't even have to be completely overboard. Give it a heal ceiling and a lockout period and done.
Yes and the valdore is part of the problem. People can dps-tank, because they can pack more offensive abilities and just have to loose one eng or sci console slot for it.
BTW: Everyone does dps tank in NWS. You throw a grav well and focus kill 3 or 4 ships so that their warp core breaches kill the rest, but that's just possible because of the way the waves spawn.
Hmm, I don't care much about others having the Valdore console or the 2-piece borg in an STF, however I'm not happy when a Scimitar shows up. Unless I have a really good day (or the player in a Scimitar has little idea what he's doing), I'm struggling to get any decent DPS as everything melts before I can even target it...
I could get the Scimitar (there's not so many interesting C-Store ships I lack at this point, anyway), but i just refuse to get it because of it's OPness (and the 30% larger size!). It's effectively damaging my gameplay experience, you could say, and I'm nowhere near a PvPer.
EDIT: And so my post is at least slightly informative, posting new results of the Autonomous regen sequence on Tribble (as of today) compared to Holodeck:
Mirror Vor'cha: 1259,74 vs. 2115,55, so a loss of about 40,5%
Hegh'ta: 875,17 vs. 1287,3, so a loss of about 32,0%
Odyssey: 1392,31 vs. 2252,77, so a loss of about 38,2%
Fun fact, in the previous numbers I posted (from like last week on Tribble), I've gotten 1470,92 repeatedly on the very same Odyssey. Another retuning, Adjudicatorhawk?
Also, I have mistakenly considered the value on Holodeck for the Odyssey as over 2300, in fact I looked at a fluke value due to probably Eng fleet being active (that one raises eng skills slightly, right?). herefore, the nerf to the Odyssey is actually lower than I reported.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
That's very sportmanslike of you, tbh.
I have a Rom now too, but I didn't get a Scimitar because of its ridiculously large, epeen bounding box, which always annoys me too when I get bumped out of my way by it.
Thanks for the data!
oh right
*leaves thread*
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Doh. So you get 1st place in CE Elite and manage to collect 60 marks (as everybody else) and purple mk x science console with average exchange value slightly less than it's vendor value of whole total 7k. Or a deflector. But, hey, Im happy with deflector: 20 deflectors - 1 million
Epic lootz without a doubt.
So for the life of me I do not see the problem.
"I win"? Yeah... Well... The valdore console is kinda a bit op, but they been tweaking it for the last 6 months as I own it. And sometimes it's no heals at all, and sometimes just plenty. Not to mention an annoying tendency of giving tonnes of shield heals when shields are full, and no heals whatsoevar when your shields are low. Go figure...
As for CEE, if taking 1st place in CEE boosts your confidence, then by all means. Everybody else is just playing it for nukara/fleet marks as the only dungeon with choice of marks and not timegated completion. Have to say that CEE was 1 on my list of "most boring dungeons that I haz to grind" before new mirror event took its place.
Yeah, or 2 mk xi purple tactical consoles. There's always a variance in loot. By your standards there is nearly no mission that isn't boring to play. In the case of CE it doesn't even have to heal on time, it just has to heal enough over the course of the mission to give you the most healing. The problem ist that it's one console power that completely undermines how the event is balanced.
So you actually have to slot a shield healing power to keep your shields up? Wow, what an inconvenience. The fact of the matter is, that this one console heals as much as a ST 3 or TSS 3 (abilities that full healers are using). Abilities which have a lot higher opportunity costs attached to them. And that's what it all comes down to. If the opportunity cost for an ability is a lot lower then that of a comparable ability then it's just broken.
Combatlog. And I'm pretty sure all the Holodeck values are accurate base values on my ships, as well as the Mirror Vor'cha and Odyssey Tribble numbers (because they're based on several combatlogs across months and even years for some builds).
Only the Hegh'ta new nerfed value might have been a fluke as I've only gotten the proc once on it (although to my knowledge, the character and build in question shouldn't have anything capable to alter hull points or hull heals in a single player environment).
And sadly, I don't own any Lobi/Lockbox/Fleet ships currently, so I can't comment on how a Moebius would fare. (And I don't dare hazard a guess as the changes don't seem to be following a simple pattern.)
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!