test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Storyline logic for Season 9: Return of the Undine

captainhunter1captainhunter1 Member Posts: 1,640 Arc User
Hi everyone,

I am a little concerned about the storyline for Season 9. "In our last episode" (lol) we found a gateway in the heart of the Solanae Dyson Sphere to another (presumably Solanae built) Dyson Sphere - the one found by the Enterprise-D in the TNG episode "Relics".

The Undine had just breached the outer doorway into the 'new' sphere and presumably were going to use the gateway there to invade 'our' Dyson Sphere and the Alpha/Beta quadrants beyond.

Can you already see where some of the logic for the story is coming apart? (and why I am concerned?)

First, why do the Undine need a 'gateway' into the Alpha/Beta quadrants at all? They are already established here in a number of locations. Plus they have shown in STO they have the ability to open rifts from Fluidic Space at ANY point in our galaxy - making the need for 'gateways' even more redundant.

Secondly, why the need for a second Dyson Sphere? With something the size of an entire solar system (more or less), couldn't the Undine have just 'invaded' the Dyson Sphere we are already exploring at some place 'deeper' into the sphere than we have gone so far in pursuit of their new Voth enemies? (possibly on the far side of Voth held territory - after all there are apparently multiple gateways floating around at different points inside the sphere) The inefficiency of invading one sphere to invade another sphere to invade a whole different set of quadrants (or just to get at one enemy - the Voth) just boogles the mind.

I'm sure some of the other big questions will be answered in the 'next episode' (why the Undine and Voth are at war, what (if any) the Undine interest is with Omega/Iconian/Solanae tech, etc), but the two questions above stick out like sore thumbs and don't seem to have any logical answers.

I hope by bringing attention to them now, before Season 9 is finalized, that the Dev team can come up with some clever answers (or fixes - like the removal of the second sphere from the story) to have the story make more sense. :)
Post edited by captainhunter1 on
«134

Comments

  • gofasternowgofasternow Member Posts: 1,390 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Hi everyone,

    I am a little concerned about the storyline for Season 9. "In our last episode" (lol) we found a gateway in the heart of the Solanae Dyson Sphere to another (presumably Solanae built) Dyson Sphere - the one found by the Enterprise-D in the TNG episode "Relics".

    The Undine had just breached the outer doorway into the 'new' sphere and presumably were going to use the gateway there to invade 'our' Dyson Sphere and the Alpha/Beta quadrants beyond.

    Can you already see where some of the logic for the story is coming apart? (and why I am concerned?)

    First, why do the Undine need a 'gateway' into the Alpha/Beta quadrants at all? They are already established here in a number of locations. Plus they have shown in STO they have the ability to open rifts from Fluidic Space at ANY point in our galaxy - making the need for 'gateways' even more redundant.

    Secondly, why the need for a second Dyson Sphere? With something the size of an entire solar system (more or less), couldn't the Undine have just 'invaded' the Dyson Sphere we are already exploring at some place 'deeper' into the sphere than we have gone so far in pursuit of their new Voth enemies? (possibly on the far side of Voth held territory - after all there are apparently multiple gateways floating around at different points inside the sphere) The inefficiency of invading one sphere to invade another sphere to invade a whole different set of quadrants (or just to get at one enemy - the Voth) just boogles the mind.

    I'm sure some of the other big questions will be answered in the 'next episode' (why the Undine and Voth are at war, what (if any) the Undine interest is with Omega/Iconian/Solanae tech, etc), but the two questions above stick out like sore thumbs and don't seem to have any logical answers.

    I hope by bringing attention to them now, before Season 9 is finalized, that the Dev team can come up with some clever answers (or fixes - like the removal of the second sphere from the story) to have the story make more sense. :)

    IMO, I think these can be answered in one big way: that it's not the invasion that they want, it's that they want to TRIBBLE around with the Federation, Romulans and the Klingons even more. Remember, at that point, the trio "only" had the Solanae Sphere, though the Federation never said that they had the Jenolan Sphere.

    And they succeeded admirably. They found the "new" Dyson sphere and, just as planned, the trio had a fight - the Romulans claimed it because it was through "their" gate, the Federation claimed it because they found it first and the Klingons claimed it because why do the Romulans and the Federation get one and not them?

    Now, maybe if it wasn't the Jenolan, I'd say things would be different, but I feel that the plan here is still "divide and conquer."
  • aloishammeraloishammer Member Posts: 3,294 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    "Storyline," "logic," and "STO" in the same sentence is just a recipe for some hideous space-time rip/continuum-tearing nightmare.

    It's the kind of thing where the best approach is to just not think about it, since that leads noplace good. ;)
  • dirlettiadirlettia Member Posts: 1,632 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Who is saying they actually wish to invade the Alpha quadrant at all?

    The biggest enemy of species 8942 is the Borg and the sphere is chock full of stuff which can isolate the Borg and make them much more manageable to annihilate. It is possible the Undine just want the Omega and there is (was) no ready access to them from subspace.

    Edit: Change is to was as perhaps the incursion in the Solonae episode was to lay beacons to be able to open the rifts as found in the battlezone.

    Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
  • capnmanxcapnmanx Member Posts: 1,452 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    As far as the sphere goes, I assume the devs just wanted to get the Jenolan sphere into the game; but had wanted something more exotic looking for the main sphere related content (hence the Solanae sphere).

    We don't know what goes into making one of those fluidic space rifts. We don't know if it is just as easy to make one to the alpha quadrant as it is the delta quadrant. We don't know how large a fleet can be moved all at once by that method. We don't know how easy they are to detect. We don't know how stable they are if left open for an extended period.

    Besides which, it's always easier to launch an invasion of you have a staging area nearby where you can gather your forces.

    If the Undine can take the Jenolan sphere, and hold the gateway, then they have a stronghold that can only be assaulted at one point (a rarity in space combat). The same holds true for the Allied forces in the other sphere of course; but the Undine have been working pretty hard to keep the various factions at each other's throats for some time, so they'd be pretty confident I would think.

    Their interest in the Solanae sphere would likely be the Omega particles. It's no skin of their noses if warp travel in our universe becomes impossible; but it would inconvenience their enemies a great deal.
  • hevachhevach Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    First, the words used regarding the Undine appearance are a bit ambiguous, and the other interpretation in context of the campaign is that the Undine have not been seen on the offensive since A Light in the Dark. Their appearance in an active warzone and unprovoked attacks on both combatants represents a renewed invasion by them, and it appears to come back to you opening that gateway and allowing the encounter in the second sphere.

    You haven't opened the door in the literal sense that they needed that specific door open, but you oepned the door in the sense that if you hadn't, the encounter at the end of Step Between Stars and anything that follows may not have happened to begin with.


    Using a second Dyson Sphere does a few things:
    1. It gives a route for the Undine to enter the first sphere while also giving a reason why they couldn't before (they have direct access to the second, but prior to opening the gate between the two the only known ways into the Solanae Sphere were controlled by the Voth and the alliance)
    2. It's a cheap "cheat" to extend the Delta quadrant a bit more and still avoid creating actual sector blocks.
    3. It could be usable in the future future to hook some TNG things into the Iconian storyline. For example, it could be tied to another mysterious alien-of-the-week to portray them as another servitor race.
    4. It also pushes the OMG Iconians narrative without actually requiring them to show up, just by establishing that they and their servitors not only had more than one of these things, but could move them around at will.
    dirlettia wrote: »
    Who is saying they actually wish to invade the Alpha quadrant at all?

    Current content on tribble suggests a timeline something like this, black text for spoilers:
    1. The Undine come through into the Solanae sphere and crush the Voth forces (The space battle zone is a battle between the alliance and the Undine afterwards)
    2. The Undine attack Ferenginar, Gornar, Cardassia, and Andor.
    3. The alliance strikes back by assaulting Undine shipgrowing yards


    At no point to the Undine appear to give half half a TRIBBLE about the Borg. Granted there may be more content to come and the remastered missions aren't there yet, but this appears to be a continuation of their infiltration of the alpha and beta quadrant powers, not their conflict with the Borg.
  • vawlkusvawlkus Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    TBH, I don't think the Voth and the undine were at war in the last episode. The fortress didn't identify the undine by name, and while it rated them as a higher threat than the player, it underestimated what the undine could do, and that doesn't seem in keeping with a stalemated war like Nex was writing about in the rep letters.

    I think it's more the case the undine wanted into the sphere, and the voth ship was just in their way.

    As for the undine using the sphere but not needing it: I agree, but while there isn't a technical reason for the undine to need the sphere, there IS a tactical one. Voyager was the first Fed starship the undine encountered, and it made it's own way into their space with only a little borg assist. If the undine open up rifts in Fed space, they're inviting the Feds to figure out how to open their OWN rifts, or use the undine's to invade the undine's space. Given the xenophobic outlook some of the undine have displayed, they REALLY wouldn't tolerate that happening. By seizing the sphere and using that as their staging grounds, they make it a LOT harder for the Feds to figure out how to invade them on the undine's home turf.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    My take on it after having played Step around 18 times....

    The Undine have decided to make good on their promise back in Voyager to wipe out all humanoid life, and are starting with those that they think could be a threat in the future.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,558 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I think someone else addressed this nicely in the last thread to ask this question, with a quote from Sun Tzu: "Never interrupt your enemy when he is in the middle of making a mistake."

    If the Undine want to concentrate on capturing a Dyson shell that no one really has any practical use for, well, that's their worry, not ours. :)
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    When in doubt, the Iconians did it. :D
  • deathsremnantdeathsremnant Member Posts: 265
    edited March 2014
    Undine want everyone destroyed because we're "weak"...Just about every major race is fighting over a single sphere atm, thus the undine have broken into a un-occupied sphere (who knows maybe to inquire about technology) While at the same time working behind the scenes to use that sphere as a link to the current ones full of "weak" races to destroy.

    Maybe they plan on using the Solanae sphere as a weapon sending a explosive shockway through the gate destroying both spheres and wiping out the KDF/Rom/Fed joint forces as well as the voth? (Which I would love since I kinda hate the sphere idea of content...)

    Also if we want to talk canon the undine cant open rifts into our space anywhere, the original rift was actually created by the borg, and they can only come out at specific areas where rifts exist. Havent played the undine missions in STO in a while now but I dont remember them ever mentioning the ability to open rifts "Anywhere"...Would assume the undine are limited to warp like travel and cant just pop out everywhere in the galaxy from anywhere.

    Also we dont know the condition of the other gates that were opened, for all we know theyre beyond repair and nonfunctional
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited March 2014

    First, why do the Undine need a 'gateway' into the Alpha/Beta quadrants at all? They are already established here in a number of locations.
    (snip)
    Secondly, why the need for a second Dyson Sphere?


    Sadly , Cryptic's "insistence" to bring in the Jenolan Sphere into the picture fails on all accounts .

    - First , as you've said (and as anyone who has actually watched Voyager can tell) -- the Undine don't need jack .
    Their portals don't depend on any physical connection to our Galaxy , and they have shown an ability (30 years in the past from STO's POV) to be able to track a single (Fed ship) in the vastness of the Delta Quadrant -- and all this from Fluidic Space .

    - And here comes Cryptic's argument : "But they want Omega Molecules !!! " .
    Yeah ... except they had the Solane Dyson Sphere inside the Delta Quadrant ... (where the Undine can go when they want) so ... why the Jenolan Sphere again ?

    Ahh it has a gate ... that can get them to ... where exactly ?
    (now that the Jenolan Sphere has been moved to the Delta Quadrant too ...)

    The whole thing is such a sad mess that if the Voth will be shown to be fighting the Undine (I would not be surprised) -- even that would solve nothing but still show a blunder in writing the size of a Sphere .

    - I suppose Cryptic could say that the Undine were afraid of a vast Omega Molecule explosion (that could threaten their realm as well) -- but that still does not explain their interest in Jenolan . :)

    If Cryptic would have just come from the angle that the Undine don't need gates , but they're after something else -- all this would have been sidestepped and this mess could have been avoided .
  • hevachhevach Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    jonsills wrote: »
    I think someone else addressed this nicely in the last thread to ask this question, with a quote from Sun Tzu: "Never interrupt your enemy when he is in the middle of making a mistake."

    If the Undine want to concentrate on capturing a Dyson shell that no one really has any practical use for, well, that's their worry, not ours. :)

    It's effectively a mobile superweapon capable of negating FTL travel and communication on a galactic scale.

    It's of a lot of practical use to a lot of people, particularly ones who've more than once promised the wholesale genocide on a galactic scale who have a convenient second universe to travel through.


    Unless you mean the Jenolan Sphere, which from what we've seen so far on tribble the Undine are only using as a pass-through and nobody actually has control of it at the moment.
  • edited March 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • hevachhevach Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    valoreah wrote: »
    But what prompted the change? Last we saw of them in Voyager, hostilities had calmed down and a peaceful resolution seemed set.

    That was before somebody using Iconian technology attacked Fluidic Space. The last time we saw the Undine in STO was A Light in the Dark, where they killed our "ambassador" during an attempt to reestablish that same resolution. Which is universal language for, "We don't trust your words anymore."
  • edited March 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • hevachhevach Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    valoreah wrote: »
    Right, but whom was that somebody?

    We don't know, but it doesn't really matter at this point because they don't particularly care who it was and don't care to listen to our side of it. They didn't particularly care that it was just the Borg last time, either.
  • sle1989sle1989 Member Posts: 552 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Why does the Alliance just not destroy the Gateway connecting the two spheres? They wanted to destroy the gateway in Sphere of Influence (Well, the Feds did) before they found out about the Omega Particles. There is nothing to indicate Omega particles are in the Jenolan Sphere so they could collapse the Gateway and trap the Undine on the other side. This still doesn't answer why they need the Gateway though. Perhaps Omega particles put out enough interference that the Undine can't open portals in the Solanae Sphere? Omega particles affect subspace after all.
    y1arXbh.png

  • edited March 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • capnmanxcapnmanx Member Posts: 1,452 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Actually, thinking about it, there must be Omega particles in the Jenolan sphere; since they are what are used to make the spheres move. Presumably the Jenolan particles were very well hidden, or only manufactured very recently.
  • hevachhevach Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Destroying the gateway between the spheres is closing the gate when the cows are already out. Opening it exposed the Voth and the alliance to the Undine and started the war, but they can continue the war without it (every Undine content so far on Tribble includes them entering through singularities).
  • wraithshadow13wraithshadow13 Member Posts: 1,728 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    To be honest, the Writing in this game has been pretty weak for the last few seasons.

    For example, look and "Defend Rh'ihho Station". it basically boils down to:

    "help! we're being attacked by the Elachi, save us!"
    "Come back to me, we need to talk"

    to

    "Help! It turns out it was the elachi attacking us, in that exact. same. section... you were just at, go back and save the romulans that were stupid enough to stay!" (stupid as in the mine trap romulans stupid)
    "Great, now come all the way back here and talk to me..."

    to

    "Help, the elachi that are attacking us, all the way back were you just were, are STILL attacking us! go save us!"

    The NPC romulans are such an incompetent race of people according to this game. Is the Tal'Shiar doing something to them in an attempt to make them docile? They're ROMULANS!!! They shouldn't be written like they were the pakled...


    Next up is the Voth. A poorly written one off villain made into the season 8 enemy, which had little to no story, minus a little lore to spread around. It's a race with superior technology, that is so blinded by doctrine that they can't believe what EVERYTHING ON THEIR ADVANCED SHIPS is telling them, which is that we come from the same planet. Handled right, that could have been a terrible enemy, turned a phenominal story arc, but what did they do with it? Nothing. They're the generic bad guys of a well designed pew pew ground zone that serves no purpose other than grind.

    Alliance: "Hey, what are you guys doing in this sphere?"
    Voth: "It's shiney and we hate you!"
    Alliance: "how did you guys even get here? You're space is 70 some odd years away from here?"
    Voth: "who cares? We made dinosaurs with lasers to help fight you!

    Players: "More Story! Less Grind! Why did we even need a Solenae Sphere any way... Didn't TNG already have a Dyson sphere?"

    Cryptic: "...Oooohhh, yeah.... about that..."

    followed by

    Romulans: "Even though we're not even a real faction, Spaceball 1 is ours!"
    KDF: "we need more content, so the death sphere is ours! This alliance is off"
    Feds: "Ah! Curse you for your sudden but inevitable betrayal!" *Grabs the dinosaur toys with lasers on their heads and makes them fight*



    I mean, come on... Season 9 is going to be all about how big of a threat the undine, now that they have access to our quadrant because of their GIANT Spaceballs. The TNG Sphere in season 9 is totally going to be called Spaceball 1 from now on... The problem here IS THAT THEY HAD ACCESS TO US THE ENTIRE #$!%#$% TIME!!!. We've been fighting them since launch. the main story talks about how many of them there are all over the place, and that's what caused the War between Feds and KDF in the first place. I've seen them opening portals, to get at us, and I've even seen them attacking federation colonies for no reason...

    If anything, they should have made this a Dominion storyline... but sadly DS9 already did that, and much better.



    TLDR; The writing isn't that great, and admittedly all they care about is the money. They don't have to worry about making sense, they don't have to worry about Lore or canon (or Lore armed with cannons). They just need to make content. It doesn't even need to be Star Trek content as we got the death star (spaceball 1 and the Solenae), the trench run (the breach), and even destroying the core of a fully operational WMD full of people (also the breach). The Undine are already here, and they're already en masse, with how much behind the scenes manipulation they've been doing. Other than the Omega particle factory, they really have no need of the spheres, especially with how hard the borg are going to fight them for it. The Borg were insanely tough pre-Voyager, but can you imagine how crazy they would get to find out that their enemy has a giant factory that makes their perfect particle? That would be like finding out the devil had a factory that made real holy grails. A) he has no use for such a factory, and B) people are going to go nuts trying to take it. The Borg would make this sphere Priority number one, and would probably launch a massive invasion of New Romuwuss (see above) just to get their hands on both of our giant spaceballs....
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Hi everyone,

    I am a little concerned about the storyline for Season 9. "In our last episode" (lol) we found a gateway in the heart of the Solanae Dyson Sphere to another (presumably Solanae built) Dyson Sphere - the one found by the Enterprise-D in the TNG episode "Relics".

    The Undine had just breached the outer doorway into the 'new' sphere and presumably were going to use the gateway there to invade 'our' Dyson Sphere and the Alpha/Beta quadrants beyond.

    Can you already see where some of the logic for the story is coming apart? (and why I am concerned?)

    First, why do the Undine need a 'gateway' into the Alpha/Beta quadrants at all? They are already established here in a number of locations. Plus they have shown in STO they have the ability to open rifts from Fluidic Space at ANY point in our galaxy - making the need for 'gateways' even more redundant.

    Secondly, why the need for a second Dyson Sphere? With something the size of an entire solar system (more or less), couldn't the Undine have just 'invaded' the Dyson Sphere we are already exploring at some place 'deeper' into the sphere than we have gone so far in pursuit of their new Voth enemies? (possibly on the far side of Voth held territory - after all there are apparently multiple gateways floating around at different points inside the sphere) The inefficiency of invading one sphere to invade another sphere to invade a whole different set of quadrants (or just to get at one enemy - the Voth) just boogles the mind.

    I'm sure some of the other big questions will be answered in the 'next episode' (why the Undine and Voth are at war, what (if any) the Undine interest is with Omega/Iconian/Solanae tech, etc), but the two questions above stick out like sore thumbs and don't seem to have any logical answers.

    I hope by bringing attention to them now, before Season 9 is finalized, that the Dev team can come up with some clever answers (or fixes - like the removal of the second sphere from the story) to have the story make more sense. :)

    its possible the delta quadrant is probably the most distant location from their own point they can reach or know about. so the gateways are needed after this just to avoid using more resources up. besides the 8472 are getting a full upgrade including their combat mechanic, very different from the style pre-upgrade. their storyline in the pelia sector will also see some upgrade, other little missions of the early fed side get upgrades as well as the romulan mystery mission arc with that infiltrator and the recent 8.5 mission.

    it's very possible 8472 were interested in the iconian technology when one of their gateways was found in their domain, and now they found something powerful enough to transport them around, it could be even more a threat to their own plans. meanwhile the 3 way allies will need to put their history behind them, deal with 8472 and their infiltrators on some level then focus on the last blow to knock them out of the fight and keep the quadrants safe from harm. obviously the next episode will likely have a political diplomatic feel to it that the start of the dominion arc had on ds9 about the borg threat.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Speaking of the Dominion..... It's already been hinted that they will get involved at some time.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • edited March 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,558 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    valoreah wrote: »
    Seems to me the crew of Voyager helped 8472 see that the Borg do not represent everyone in our dimension.
    Helped a few members of 8472 to see that, perhaps. There was no evidence of a society-wide attitude shift on their part.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • mewmaster101mewmaster101 Member Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    valoreah wrote: »
    Seems to me the crew of Voyager helped 8472 see that the Borg do not represent everyone in our dimension.

    actually, the crew of Voyager made it worse, because they "proved" that the federation would not be a threat.
  • sle1989sle1989 Member Posts: 552 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    jonsills wrote: »
    Helped a few members of 8472 to see that, perhaps. There was no evidence of a society-wide attitude shift on their part.


    This will be the reason given as to why at Tier five of the Undine Rep we get an Undine Boff.
    y1arXbh.png

  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    sle1989 wrote: »
    This will be the reason given as to why at Tier five of the Undine Rep we get an Undine Boff.

    I washinkin how hey could do hisand I bit will a BOff who looks human/Romulan/Klingon out of combat (and can therefore sit in chairs) but which adopts their true Undine form in combat...

    (And it could have full alien Fed/KDF/Rom customization this way.)
  • edgecrysgeredgecrysger Member Posts: 2,740 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    sle1989 wrote: »
    This will be the reason given as to why at Tier five of the Undine Rep we get an Undine Boff.

    That will be really hard , even impossible for cryptic to achieve that. The model of the undine is completely different to any other model of the game, so they will need to re-design almost everything, from weapon positions, skeleton joints, outfits (or watever an undine will wear, if possible) and a huge etc. And, since we all know the way cryptic think, its almost impossible to think on that lol.
  • oldravenman3025oldravenman3025 Member Posts: 1,892 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    sle1989 wrote: »
    This will be the reason given as to why at Tier five of the Undine Rep we get an Undine Boff.




    I would love this.
Sign In or Register to comment.