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How do I succeed with an Atrox?

l2cl2c Member Posts: 15 Arc User
edited March 2014 in The Academy
So, I took a fairly long break from STO, but now I'm back, and I can't get my Atrox to be any kind of usefull.
In my LRSV retrofit, I rarely die in stf's, it's just awesome. In my Atrox, I spend most of the time waiting to respawn. It's sooo slow, when I loose shield, I can't get away, and get killed, again and again. I don't understand hulltanking tbh, everytime I get caught with no shields (atleast against Borg), I just die. But I shouldn't have to hulltank in the Atrox, should I?

I'm using an adv. Stalker and a Delta Flyer hangar thingie, I've got Aegis + MACO mk X shield, I've got borg, dyson and nukara universal consoles, a dyson +shieldhp console, a field generator (mk XI)... I feel kinda well geared, for being a casual without a fleet. Atleast until I do Infected with an Atrox :|

Anyone have any great tips to not die alot in the Atrox?

/edit: I'm a caitian science officer btw :p
Post edited by l2c on
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Comments

  • mewmaster101mewmaster101 Member Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    1. carriers are some of the tankiest ships in the game, having good hull AND a good shield mod, well built, they are nearly impossible to take down

    2. what pets do you have access to (do you only have access to the basic and dil pets or do you have any of the special carriers that come with pets) Delta flyers are garbage as far as i know, not sure about stalkers though.

    2. use STOacademy to show what you are using at the moment so we can see what you ahve at the moment

    3. what reps levels do you have overall?

    EDIT: here is a possible build i just got from the top of my head that could probably do fine, and it mission reward gear for the most part and the Borg console. i could not think of anything to put in the last 2 science slots, so put whatever you want.

    http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=atrox10_0
  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,358 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    A couple Fleet RCS consoles would help a bit if turning is an issue. Of course, +42% of slooow is still sloow. :D Sadly, those Stalkers are not that great. Two hangers of elite Scorpions (or the Yellowstone runabouts if you want some free tractor beams) seems to be the consensus for what's best.
  • lilchibiclarililchibiclari Member Posts: 1,193 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Yellowstones require buying from a Fleet store, and the OP said that he wasn't in a fleet.

    However, if we are going to suggest fleet equipment as an option, then I recommend getting one of the threat-reduction Science consoles, which will reduce the OP's stated issue that he was drawing too much aggro in team play.
  • tgebhardttgebhardt Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    First of all the Atrox as a bad turn rate, just accept it and move one.

    Second. Your pets can extend your life expediency quit a bit. Just set them to intercept and most of those annoying Heavy plasma Torpedoes will never get anywhere near you.

    Third. To really shine in an Atrox you must know, what you want to do with it then fit your Captain, bridge officers, duty officers and equipment to match. If one of those four things do not fit you will be dying a lot.

    For instance I like drain builds. You can build a very nice drain build out of an Atrox.

    Here is the captain skill table, equipment load out and bridge officer layout.

    http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=atrox20_6263

    I would recommend 3 purple deflector officers who have a 25 % chance to set your deflector abilities cool down to 50 %. You have 3 deflector abilities in that build (Tyken's rift, Energy syphon and tachyon beam) each with a 75 % chance to trigger that proc. Without them the build will be less then efficient.

    2 development science officers to reduce the cool down of your science team to 15 seconds help a lot in the survival department.

    Or you could slot 2 energy weapon officer to reduce cool down for your inbuilt beam fire at target abilities.

    Energy management: Full energy to Auxillary, rest get dumped into shields.
  • mewmaster101mewmaster101 Member Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    tgebhardt wrote: »

    1. Those torps are useless on that ship, they will rarely be in range to do anything.

    2. you have poloron turrets, but the Anti-proton 360 array, it is never a good idea to have more than one energy damage type.

    3. for a drain build, it is better to just use all Poloron arrays (or maybe turrets, but probably just stick to arrays)
  • lan451lan451 Member Posts: 3,386 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I've found that to be successful with carriers, I had to think of them differently than a starship and fly them as such. Rather than fly it as a "starship" I began flying them more as a "mobile artillery platform." Sitting out on the edge of the battle while my fighters get into the enemies face. You don't need to worry so much about the bad turn rates then. When you do need to turn, don't forget that you can slam it into reverse and turn that way. Once I stopped trying to fly it like a starship, everything got better.
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  • l2cl2c Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Arite. First, http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=l2csatroxbuild_0 <- build
    Using the quad cannons cause I saw I could, it's not something I play around. The mkXI engie console is mkXII but rare/blue, but I couldn't choose that, so.. And the stalkers are purple, but couldn't choose advanced and purple either.
    Got the Scorpions today, haven't done much of the Rom rep yet, focusing on Omega first ^^ I noticed they lived longer vs the chrystaline entity than the stalkers.

    I dumped my RCS's after reading about them, figured like someone said, % of very little/slow is still very little/slow.
    I think one of my problems is how to position myself. In the LRSV retro I can basically do loops in front of the entity without going to close or to far away, and with that, spread the damage over all four sides of the shield. In the Atrox (much like my romulan's dehlan) I have to spampress the arrow corresponding to the shieldside facing the enemy. Are you not supposed to just park it sideways and spam broadside lasers?
    It's mostly against the borg I get instagibbed when I get caught shieldless.. It's typical tho, on my LRSV retro I have a great "oh s***" button (Ablative Generator), but I rarely need it, but on my Atrox, who could use such a button all the time, is basically SOL :<
    Would the Photonic Displacer console be of any use? Cause I have that, but never remembered to use it, and put it in my bank.
    I'm gonna try it some more, maybe I'm just rusty with it. Stop flying it like a spaceship :p
    Ty all!
  • mewmaster101mewmaster101 Member Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    those quad cannons....get rid of them. Not only are they a bad weapon in general, but they only fire at stuff right in front of the Atrox, of which is rarely going to happen.

    Tachyon beam is not worth it either, get another hazard emitters, or maybe polarize hull for Tractor Beam.

    Those energy sig dampeners, replace with feild generators, they are somewhat expsensivem but they are VERY worth it. IF you want, you can get some MK XI green ones from an episode replay, and those will work fine for now.

    Get rid of the Torps as well, they have a similar problem as the cannons, and unlike cruisers which have extra spots that might make it somewhat worth it, the Atrox only has 6 slots. Replace with anti-proton beams (to go with the anti-proton 360 beam), same with the spiral disruptors, you NEVER want to use more than one energy type, ever.

    look at the build i linked, it is not great, but it has some things that can help you with your build.
  • lilchibiclarililchibiclari Member Posts: 1,193 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    l2c wrote: »
    I think one of my problems is how to position myself. In the LRSV retro I can basically do loops in front of the entity without going to close or to far away, and with that, spread the damage over all four sides of the shield. In the Atrox (much like my romulan's dehlan) I have to spampress the arrow corresponding to the shieldside facing the enemy. Are you not supposed to just park it sideways and spam broadside lasers?

    Ok, if you click on the center area (i.e. your ship icon) instead of clicking to reinforce just the shield facing the enemy, then your shields will attempt to equalize across all quadrants. This happens about twice as fast as reinforcing a single quadrant, so it is worth your while to rebuild a lost shield facing this way, and only click to add more to the one facing after you have equalized.
    Would the Photonic Displacer console be of any use? Cause I have that, but never remembered to use it, and put it in my bank.
    Ty all!

    The Displacer creates a photonic decoy for the enemy to shoot at (and makes your real self untargetable either until the decoy fades or you start shooting). It's less useful if you are sitting and shooting than if you are in motion. For a slow, tanky craft, you are better off replacing it with another console.
  • johnstewardjohnsteward Member Posts: 1,073 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Just dont use an attrox ;)
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    1. Those torps are useless on that ship, they will rarely be in range to do anything.

    2. you have poloron turrets, but the Anti-proton 360 array, it is never a good idea to have more than one energy damage type.

    3. for a drain build, it is better to just use all Poloron arrays (or maybe turrets, but probably just stick to arrays)

    The 360 AP does more damage than a turret on ships that have almost no boosts to their damage type (like this one). It takes several tac consoles or other damage bonuses to bring a turret up to the level of this weapon.

    You can use 90 degree weapons on a carrier in pve once you get the hang of flyign it. arrays are easier but to get all 6 on target takes an angle that prevents the use of sci skills that face forward..... and this is a sci ship...

    If you can afford it, the captain trait for turning is worth buying for a carrier driver.
  • arcjetarcjet Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    From the top of my head two suggestions:

    1. If you have problems with tanking, and don't have access to fleet items, get the full borg space set. The set bonuses are well worth it (hull repair proc, shield repair proc, free hazard emitter). But you have to run high shield power to make it shine. So it works best with a powerful torp (omega, or rom with proj. doffs) as main weapon and staying at range, as torps don't rely on weapon power (as a side effect the full borg weapon set also helps with tanking).

    2. If you want to turn faster, consider using some Conn Officer Doffs that reduce evasive maneuver cooldown, and Aux to Dampeners + doff on that lt. engineering slot. Those two options are certainly better than RCS.
  • mewmaster101mewmaster101 Member Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    noroblad wrote: »
    The 360 AP does more damage than a turret on ships that have almost no boosts to their damage type (like this one). It takes several tac consoles or other damage bonuses to bring a turret up to the level of this weapon.

    You can use 90 degree weapons on a carrier in pve once you get the hang of flyign it. arrays are easier but to get all 6 on target takes an angle that prevents the use of sci skills that face forward..... and this is a sci ship...

    If you can afford it, the captain trait for turning is worth buying for a carrier driver.

    You are still not explain the use of 2 energy types of which is never a good idea, ever.

    Science abilities have a 180 angle, more than enough to be fine with broadsiding beams AND you will actually do some damage unlike with the tops and turrets
  • dathranselanedathranselane Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I'm no expert on science ships, but I know how to build to survive, and dish out at least as good as you're getting. Science ships have a lot of nasty tricks, and a carrier is a good foundation to unload those tricks from.

    Here is my suggestion for an Atrox build that should not break your bank:

    http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=atroxbuild_5953

    I put everything at Very Rare Mk XI, but downgrade as needed (rarity first, then mark). I believe the Solonae 3 pc set will serve you better than the combination of Aegis and MACO. The warp core is the same, because it is a good science core and provides some benefit to the AP array. Normally I would not recommend using multiple energy types, but the 360 beams do provide you with some extra directional firepower the carrier is otherwise lacking.

    Your Bridge Officer powers frankly need a complete overhaul for this ship, as do your skills. I altered those as I thought necessary, but they can easily be tuned to personal taste. You had a lot of skills points that weren't helping you at all, those got moved to powers that can benefit you much more. You can probably lose ALL the points in the 'Performance' skills and not suffer too much, for that matter; 3 pts per skill = 5 pts of power in that subsystem, which is the best payoff for investment in those skills.

    If you can afford it, I would get a Plasmonic Leech console, remove all points from Performance skills, put them in Flow Capacitors to max, and spend the rest as you wish.

    Hopefully others can add to or improve the build I suggested. The Atrox can be a solid ship, you just need to play to its strengths, and understand its limitations.
  • l2cl2c Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Hmm, thanks, I'll look into that spec, lots of good feedback here.
    Though a quick question regarding my weapons.. as it stands, I tend to get agg with little problem. Won't that problem be even bigger, if I unify(?) damage types, and get actual consoles for that damage type?
  • dathranselanedathranselane Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    If you're firing at all, you're gonna pull some aggro. :) There are -Threat consoles available as fleet versions, but the best way to mitigate aggro is to make hurting you difficult (or let others pull the majority of the heat). Science has a lot of tools to complicate things for enemies, you want to use those powers to your (and your team's) advantage.

    Against Borg, you really need to keep an eye out for the Shield Neutralizer being placed on your ship, and keep Hazard Emitters in reserve to cleanse it if you get pegged. Staying outside 6km against Borg ships (5km minimum) is ideal for reducing proximity aggro.
  • mewmaster101mewmaster101 Member Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Normally I would not recommend using multiple energy types, but the 360 beams do provide you with some extra directional firepower the carrier is otherwise lacking.

    You should NEVER use more than 1 energy type, if the OP wants to use the AP beams, he can use the AP beam arrays from "sphere of Influence" which are MK XI [acc]x2, pretty good for a mission reward.
  • gerwalk0769gerwalk0769 Member Posts: 1,095 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    You are still not explain the use of 2 energy types of which is never a good idea, ever.

    Science abilities have a 180 angle, more than enough to be fine with broadsiding beams AND you will actually do some damage unlike with the tops and turrets

    Science BOFF abilities have a 135 degree targeting arc. I have not been able to broadside and fire off a Gravity Well at the same target; I've always had to turn.

    Reputation weapons such as the Experimental Romulan Plasma Beam Array, which costs no energy to use, can make mixing beam array energy weapons more a reality for some.
    Joined STO in September 2010.
  • l2cl2c Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Alrite, went over some stuff, respecced, and am now at http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=atroxv15_0
    Gonna get on those Solanae bits soon, just soooo tired of doing that mission :p
    Changed some stuff here and there, kept some of the gear instead of buying new "everything" ^^
    Don't think it's anything critical, maybe the lack of the RCS will hurt, but I'mma test it in some STFs.

    /edit: So far so good. Did elite Chrystaline, finished 3rd, did elite infected space, still got owned by the last cube, but everything else went smooth :p Thanks alot for the help! \o/
  • mewmaster101mewmaster101 Member Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    l2c wrote: »
    Alrite, went over some stuff, respecced, and am now at http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=atroxv15_0
    Gonna get on those Solanae bits soon, just soooo tired of doing that mission :p
    Changed some stuff here and there, kept some of the gear instead of buying new "everything" ^^
    Don't think it's anything critical, maybe the lack of the RCS will hurt, but I'mma test it in some STFs.

    1. you cannot have more than 1 of the AP 360 beams.

    2. NEVER MIX ENERGY TYPES, EVER, choose ONCE energy type, and use NOTHING ELSE ON THAT SHIP!!!!

    3. your BOFF layout is still not very good, scramble sensors is barely useful, charged particle burst is pretty much useless, same with Tachyon beam.
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    It is really simple.

    The cat carrier has 2 tac consoles. IF the build does not have some *other* damage type set like the AP core/beam or rom plasma or whatever else is out there, THEN the AP beam will do MORE DPS than a turret that matches the user's tac consoles. Because that beam has a higher dps than a turret, significantly. This would not be true on say a scimitar with 5 tac consoles buffing the turret.

    So yes, 'in general' one should NOT mix damage types. In this specific case, the beam does more damage. It would be best, because of this beam, to go all AP, of course.... using all the same type damage .... but either way the beam is superior.


    As for the arc, 180 degree sci powers overlap the broadside by 30 degrees. While it is possible to be at exactly the right angle to a boss or single cube etc type fight, its not easy to maintain this; for reference this target arc is SMALLER THAN DHC ARC. It is 1/3 the arc of my suggested DBB/90 degree arc build which faces forward. SO FOR A 6 WEAPON ship, 3 DBB front (more dps than beam arrays) and the cutting beam (more dps than a beam array) and the AP beam (more dps than a beam array ) and one turret (weaker) means more dps in a frontal 90 degree arc. As would a 2 DBB+torp substitution. And it would be a wider aim arc than the 30 degree overlap between sci and broadside. How is my suggestion not better??
  • mewmaster101mewmaster101 Member Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    noroblad wrote: »
    It is really simple.

    The cat carrier has 2 tac consoles. IF the build does not have some *other* damage type set like the AP core/beam or rom plasma or whatever else is out there, THEN the AP beam will do MORE DPS than a turret that matches the user's tac consoles. Because that beam has a higher dps than a turret, significantly.

    So yes, 'in general' one should NOT mix damage types. In this specific case, the beam does more damage. It would be best, because of this beam, to go all AP, of course.... using all the same type damage .... but either way the beam is superior.


    As for the arc, 180 degree sci powers overlap the broadside by 30 degrees. While it is possible to be at exactly the right angle to a boss or single cube etc type fight, its not easy to maintain this; for reference this target arc is SMALLER THAN DHC ARC. It is 1/3 the arc of my suggested DBB/90 degree arc build which faces forward. SO FOR A 6 WEAPON ship, 3 DBB front (more dps than beam arrays) and the cutting beam (more dps than a beam array) and the AP beam (more dps than a beam array ) and one turret (weaker) means more dps in a frontal 90 degree arc. As would a 2 DBB+torp substitution. And it would be a wider aim arc than the 30 degree overlap between sci and broadside. How is my suggestion not better??

    Your logic fails miserably when you can get Anti-proton turrets from the exchange easily, making your entire argument worthless n terms of the energy types. You also do not seem to understand how weapon energy works.

    also, the moment something goes to your side or to your back, you are now cannot hit them with most of your weapons, so your own argument works against you.
  • dathranselanedathranselane Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    "Mewmaster", while I appreciate your passion for single energy types, and share it to an extent, there are reasons why I suggested the build I did (3x polaron beam array fore, 1x AP 360, 1x KCB, 1x polaron array aft):

    1) Science ships have to turn towards the enemy to deploy most of their abilities. For a nimble ship like the Vesta, this is no big deal... but it's a bit different with a carrier. Five beams firing forward is better than three, even if the energy types don't match.

    2) The 360 AP array is benefitting from the +10% damage boost from the Obelisk warp core, further improving its damage over a polaron turret.

    3) The KCB does not have an energy type per se, and does respectable hull damage in place of torpedoes. It also works with the Borg console to apply the Omega amplifier proc, which can be very useful.

    If he wants to use Antiproton instead of Polaron, so much the better. He'd be better off that way. Polaron is relatively inexpensive, and I got the impression he wasn't rich and/or looking to spend a lot on testing. Regardless, one 360 AP array is hardly going to have a nightmarish impact on his DPS.
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Your logic fails miserably when you can get Anti-proton turrets from the exchange easily, making your entire argument worthless n terms of the energy types. You also do not seem to understand how weapon energy works.

    also, the moment something goes to your side or to your back, you are now cannot hit them with most of your weapons, so your own argument works against you.


    I have zero problems keeping the dumb AI in front of me well enough to use 90 degree weapons. If something does get beside, me, yes, I can't hit it anymore. It takes a while to learn to handle these ships well enough to do that, but I can assure you, in PVE, it is very possible. It is utter fail in PVP, of course.


    I have no clue what you are trying to say about the exchange. Where one gets a weapon does not matter. I assume those are the 4 or 5 million a pop voth turrets on the exchange, or the XI crafted ones (??).

    You are missing the point. Say you are in the cat carrier and use blue plasma weapons and 2 plasma consoles. The ap beam will do more dps than a plasma turret, even a fleet one. Because its a unique weapon with a high dps value (higher than should be on a 360). Its an exception to the rule. An ap build would make better use of it. But it still beats a standard turret that has nothing else except 2 tac consoles on it. AND it does not suffer range fall off like a turret. Which part of this are you saying is NOT correct?
  • l2cl2c Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Fellas, chillax. I'm using 4 disrupter beams, 1 antiproton 360, and one kinetic 360. I pull enough aggro with it, no need to swap out my 4 (free) disruptors with antiprotons, just so that 1 360 can benefit from consoles.
    1. you cannot have more than 1 of the AP 360 beams.
    I could've sworn I put a Spiral Wave Disruptor aft, alongside the two 360's oO

    With the spec based off of dathranselane's suggestion, the ship feels easier to maneuver, and in general feels more usefull. I'm not gonna pretend I know if scramble sensors is making any difference, but the aoe shield stripping from charged particle burst is great for running in with FAW ^^
  • lhoygowlhoygow Member Posts: 311 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I do quite well in my atrox using the free AP beam arrays from Sphere of Influence. 4 beam arrays (or 5 if you don't have the kinetic cutting beam), AP beam turret and kinetic cutting beam. Use BFAW and APB. With the increased arc of gravity well you just pop the GW and broadside away. I also use this setup on the Obelisk to great effect as well. Works better on the obelisk for the frugal player as you can equip the free advanced swarmers as well (the free swarmers only work on the obelisk, if you have the funds get the spire swarmers for your atrox, much better dps than runabouts).
  • kimmymkimmym Member Posts: 1,317 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Here is my Catbox:

    http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=thecatbox_5664

    She is a beast. Have fun.

    edit: I apparently haven't upgraded her... she is fleet now, with an Isometric Charge in the extra slot, and spire tac consoles... but otherwise untouched.

    Edit2: I'm short on time.. but yet another upgrade, I have the 6th boff slot now for Seggis.
    I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
    kimmym_5664.jpg
    Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    l2c wrote: »
    Fellas, chillax. I'm using 4 disrupter beams, 1 antiproton 360, and one kinetic 360. I pull enough aggro with it, no need to swap out my 4 (free) disruptors with antiprotons, just so that 1 360 can benefit from consoles.

    I could've sworn I put a Spiral Wave Disruptor aft, alongside the two 360's oO

    With the spec based off of dathranselane's suggestion, the ship feels easier to maneuver, and in general feels more usefull. I'm not gonna pretend I know if scramble sensors is making any difference, but the aoe shield stripping from charged particle burst is great for running in with FAW ^^

    Good!
    If you do get a the funds to buy a trait for your captain to improve turn rate, it helps a little more.

    A lot of it is just getting used to a slow turning ship. And learning to turn toward things before you need to do so... which sometimes means using memory of rough enemy spawn points and sometimes just common sense.
  • dathranselanedathranselane Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I'm glad that build helped! And yeah, even if you have to run Sphere over and over, you'll get better results from having all AP arrays; I know that AP tac consoles are expensive as hell, so I didn't steer that way, but with that warp core it's your best long-term bet.

    Scramble Sensors is decent for taking heat off you if you get jammed, but much better to use on ships that are snared and dragged together by Gravity Well. They will pummel each other viciously for the duration, while suffering GW damage, along with whatever else you choose to inflict on them. If you've got a friend to marinade them in Warp Plasma while they're shooting each other in the Gravity Well, so much the better!
  • edgecrysgeredgecrysger Member Posts: 2,740 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Science ships have to turn towards the enemy to deploy most of their abilities. For a nimble ship like the Vesta, this is no big deal... but it's a bit different with a carrier. Five beams firing forward is better than three, even if the energy types don't match.

    Actually, if you have a decent defense, you can even stop the engines and keep firing at will and you dont need to even turn around. That is what i do with my science destroyer. And the Atrox, that is even stronger in terms of tanking, will not have any problem at all in doing that.

    Besides, carriers are supossed to stay almost still while they are attacking. What is the point of having a carrier if you need to keep fighting like an escort? when you use a carrier or a really slow tanking ship, you need to find strategies that makes you to move less as possible. Because in STO, any decent tanking ship can even get stucked in place firing without worrying of anything.

    So he should not be worrying about the need of turning around. In that case 360 weapons are great, i agree. The KCB is always good, and the AP same. Now, please dont use turrets, for god sake, they are useless.
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