Galaxies really need saucer UI like hangar pets

monkeybone13

When the new hangar pet user interface in the HUD was announced, players asked about the Galaxy class saucers getting their own UI HUD. The answer was no. I don't remember if a reason was given other then "No".

For a while players had requested it. So I'm going to put out another request for it.

The damned saucer is hard to keep track of, mainly because it prefers to wander around aimlessly on its own, but when it is actually doing something a UI would make things easier to heal it and recover its shields like we can with hangar pets.

Edit: To be honest the separated saucer needs major AI improvements also.

maxvitor

I would say this is true for separated parts in general, not just with the Galaxy saucer, but also with Odyssey Aquarius and Chervon, MVAEs separated parts, the Klingon Bortasque's separated Attack Craft and the Romulan Haapax and Hakonas separated ships.
The AI on these parts are ridiculous, once you cut them loose you have no control over what they do or where they go, they're fine if you are only fighting a single target, but in an area where targets are spread out and you are trying to concentrate in one area at a time, you often have your detached part wandering off, aggroing a group you didn't want to deal with yet and your only options are to throw heals at it and hope for the best, let it get itself destroyed or call it back to reattach, you can't even direct it to attack or assist your target.
The whole point of having these functions was not merely to be able to say "Oh lookey my ship can separate just like on TV". It was to have a functional asset in battle. As it is I feel like Robin Williams in Robots with his head on the floor looking at his body wondering off and saying "Hey Idiot. I'm over here!"

nagrom7

The AI needs to be fixed, I've noticed that my Ho'sus will use it's DHCs in it's alpha run, but then just circle afterwards using only it's turret.
They tend to die a lot, from various things like warp core breach and you can't see if they are dead or not so having a UI would help there. I would also like to set them between attack mode and recall when I don't want to aggro everything on the map.

monkeybone13

maxvitor wrote: »

I would say this is true for separated parts in general, not just with the Galaxy saucer, but also with Odyssey Aquarius and Chervon, MVAEs separated parts, the Klingon Bortasque's separated Attack Craft and the Romulan Haapax and Hakonas separated ships.
The AI on these parts are ridiculous, once you cut them loose you have no control over what they do or where they go, they're fine if you are only fighting a single target, but in an area where targets are spread out and you are trying to concentrate in one area at a time, you often have your detached part wandering off, aggroing a group you didn't want to deal with yet and your only options are to throw heals at it and hope for the best, let it get itself destroyed or call it back to reattach, you can't even direct it to attack or assist your target.
The whole point of having these functions was not merely to be able to say "Oh lookey my ship can separate just like on TV". It was to have a functional asset in battle. As it is I feel like Robin Williams in Robots with his head on the floor looking at his body wondering off and saying "Hey Idiot. I'm over here!"

Good point about the other ships. I don't own any of them so I forgot, or didn't realize, they had separation abilities and such.

The problem I'm having is that after a while I notice my saucer isn't attacking anything. When this happens I think ti wandered off to the other side of the map, only find once the event is over and the last enemy ships fade out, oh look!, it's over there, DEAD!. Had I known it was taking heavy damage I would have healed it.

And that's another thing. I'm starting to not separate my saucer anymore because it gets killed to quickly.

I really think something needs to be done about these things. It's stupid to have it in game as nothing more than a gimmick. It has to be effective for it to be worth the price I payed to get the Dreadnaught Cruiser from the c-store, then a fleet ship module for it, as well as a fleet Exploration Cruiser Retrofit. And that's both on the same character. He has a fleet avenger battle cruiser too, which actually IS useful, instead of being just a gimmick.

ufpterrell

When I deploy my Aquarius/Ho'Sus I or use the Saucer Separation I set the pet as focus, that way I can see it's status and send over heals if needs be. I know it's not perfect by any means, but it does help an awful lot . If you don't know, you can set a target as your focus by clicking on the little pin icon to the left of the target box thing with it's shield/hull displayed.

crownvic2door

it would be extra helpful if the saucer just targeted whatever it is you have targeted so its serving as a distraction pulling a lil bit of the aggro away from yourself. also its quite weak in both power and hull/shields ..also a control like we get with hangar bay pets would rock.

Fix those things and you have a REAL DREADNAUGHT.

maxvitor

ufpterrell wrote: »

When I deploy my Aquarius/Ho'Sus I or use the Saucer Separation I set the pet as focus, that way I can see it's status and send over heals if needs be. I know it's not perfect by any means, but it does help an awful lot . If you don't know, you can set a target as your focus by clicking on the little pin icon to the left of the target box thing with it's shield/hull displayed.

I know about that but it only half works for the MVAE and it ties up the focus function, besides we shouldn't need it when when we have an existing carrier pet mechanism that could easily be used to give functionality to these separated parts, it isn't perfect by any means but we could at least put their random AI on a leash.

crownvic2door wrote: »

it would be extra helpful if the saucer just targeted whatever it is you have targeted so its serving as a distraction pulling a lil bit of the aggro away from yourself. also its quite weak in both power and hull/shields ..also a control like we get with hangar bay pets would rock.

Fix those things and you have a REAL DREADNAUGHT.

If the AI was locked into "Attack My Target" mode at least you wouldn't have to worry about it going too far and it would be far easier to keep track of, but I think it is deployed in "Intercept" mode so that it will automatically seek out the nearest threat, which isn't very helpful with the AI being dumb as a post, often diving into a fight even if it's health is near destruction.

champion1701

I wish it was set on defend, if I am attacked, it attacks.

angrytarg

I cannot proof what I'm about to say as it's a thing of the past, but I think if I remember correctly the reason for those pets not getting the Hangar UI was that hangar pets are supposed to be superior and seperation pets are only supposed to be a gimmick as you have to pay/work for the first or something like that.

chrismullins1987

maxvitor wrote: »

I would say this is true for separated parts in general, not just with the Galaxy saucer, but also with Odyssey Aquarius and Chervon, MVAEs separated parts, the Klingon Bortasque's separated Attack Craft and the Romulan Haapax and Hakonas separated ships.
The AI on these parts are ridiculous, once you cut them loose you have no control over what they do or where they go, they're fine if you are only fighting a single target, but in an area where targets are spread out and you are trying to concentrate in one area at a time, you often have your detached part wandering off, aggroing a group you didn't want to deal with yet and your only options are to throw heals at it and hope for the best, let it get itself destroyed or call it back to reattach, you can't even direct it to attack or assist your target.
The whole point of having these functions was not merely to be able to say "Oh lookey my ship can separate just like on TV". It was to have a functional asset in battle. As it is I feel like Robin Williams in Robots with his head on the floor looking at his body wondering off and saying "Hey Idiot. I'm over here!"

Although I only own a Galaxy, I think this is a must.

+1

centersolace

I like this thread.

rmxiii

This is a great idea for all those ships that split apart or launch a support craft.

maxvitor

angrytarg wrote: »

I cannot proof what I'm about to say as it's a thing of the past, but I think if I remember correctly the reason for those pets not getting the Hangar UI was that hangar pets are supposed to be superior and seperation pets are only supposed to be a gimmick as you have to pay/work for the first or something like that.

I can't see that since the reverse is true, there have never been free ships that have separation consoles, I've also heard the argument that separated parts can't use these commands because they use a console, well carrier pets use a hanger which is actually just another console. But what you said about separation pets being a gimmick does seem to be true. They do have some benefit, ships that use separation modes gain various buffs and abilities while separated that diversify the capabilities of the ship so there is considerable merit for using them just for that. That said the separated part shouldn't just be an elaborate decoy, which is pretty much all that it is with the current setup, the sacrificial lamb set on suicidal idiot mode.
We need to be able to direct the part to attack or defend specific targets or by default attacking our targets or defending us rather than randomly creating havoc in their path. If that means giving them a team member UI that shows up on the HUD when separated that consequently also shows their status so much the better.
But all that aside, if I could issue an Attack My Target command and it would respond, I would be satisfied.

caasicam

Sometimes, I wonder if any of my crew actually remembers to stay and pilot the friggin' thing after I separate my saucer.

Then again, after eating a Borg torp the first time, I can't blame them for not holding their post.

maxvitor

caasicam wrote: »

Sometimes, I wonder if any of my crew actually remembers to stay and pilot the friggin' thing after I separate my saucer.

Then again, after eating a Borg torp the first time, I can't blame them for not holding their post.

Since you still have your boff powers after you separate it's safe to assume that only the redshirts are left on the saucer section, which explains many things.

On a sidenote I must say I like your signature, which is one of the few images Ive seen in a while of a Dreadnaught with properly proportioned saucer components.

kintisho

+1 tp hanger like controls for ALL pets, this will help us move into the next logical phase of the game "fleet command' an "away team of ships" Epic combat......

choka1

I an idea that if they did it, it would add to the realism of the separation and to the Trek 'feel' of the game.


From what I see I agree that it does seem like red shirts run the separated section. To that end I propose a two part fix of sorts. The first part would require that the BOFF that you set as your XO would need to be separate from the other BOFF's giving him unique abilities in all non-separated ships, with or without the ability. These abilities are in the to be determined category for now. It would not be an extra BOFF slot persay, because the XO would not have his normal skills to use, It would be either something universal to all XO's or career path based.

Now, if they ever implement the XO system then when you have a two part separation, you would loose you XO to the separated part, Yes we still need a UI component. Once the separation occurs your XO would command the second section and be able to use his BOFF powers along with the normal abilities of the section.

Now for the 3 part separation you would also loose one of your BOFF's, and that would be set in the 'stations' tab.

This would do a couple things for the game I think. One it would add a bit of emersion, two it would make your XO selection a bit more important.

sirokk

It does need to be better. We need to be able to control it like hanger pets, with the addition to give an "evacuate" command to it! I'd be neat to see a bunch of escape pods popping out of it all at the same time!

At least to keep an eye on it (to try to keep it alive), I usually pin it to the target info window.

...but it's usually dead by the second or third time I look up.

centersolace

sirokk wrote: »

It does need to be better. We need to be able to control it like hanger pets, with the addition to give an "evacuate" command to it! I'd be neat to see a bunch of escape pods popping out of it all at the same time!

At least to keep an eye on it (to try to keep it alive), I usually pin it to the target info window.

...but it's usually dead by the second or third time I look up.

It should be treated like a carrier pet at least. That would make it much better.

doomfrost

I'd really just like to have control on when the GalX saucer section gets to use it's phaser lance. Can't trust AI to use it appropriately.

red01999

angrytarg wrote: »

I cannot proof what I'm about to say as it's a thing of the past, but I think if I remember correctly the reason for those pets not getting the Hangar UI was that hangar pets are supposed to be superior and seperation pets are only supposed to be a gimmick as you have to pay/work for the first or something like that.

I can... almost sorta see that argument for the Galaxy and Odyssey saucers. Truth be told - and this is missed by like half the people who complain about the fact that the option even exists - the bonus of saucer separation was already explained on the show itself, and carries over to STO. The point is to get RID of the saucer. The fact that it hangs around is a bonus (usually, sometimes a disadvantage).

However, the Aquarius and MVAE units... no. The Aquarius is weak enough as-is, and is supposed to act like a tougher fighter - go out and engage threats in a firepower-licious fashion ahead of the main mothership, which it is arguably there to protect. As-is, it's a gnat that, when it actually does enough to get noticed, gets swatted and accordingly fares as well as a gnat does against a person's hand, except without any of the gnat's knack for survival.

The MVAE, the entire point is 3-vs-1 combat. That said, I have had a lot more luck with the MVAE than any of the other separation craft (and I own all of the Federation ones, as far as I know, except for the Fleet MVAE). That said, I think the AI on the MVAE is somehow superior to that of the other units, though it still needs improvement.

Note I do not agree that the separable pets should not have controls, merely that I can understand the arguments for the saucers.

aliensamongus

I completely agree. Especially when you want to try and heal the Saucer. Sometimes I never really notice it is destroyed.

If it ever comes, please add the function of manually applying the Lance. I would like to sync. it up with the Phaser wide-beam. Make it function as a the special abilities bar.

Make the ability of Antimatter Spread grey, for those who do not have that synergy yet. It would go well together. The Phaser Lance can be added to the bar as well.

maxvitor

doomfrost wrote: »

Can't trust AI to use it appropriately.

Which sums this whole thread up in one sentence. The AI behavior of the separated part is unpredictable, it's role is only supportive under ideal circumstances and if we can't control it, it should always default to a supportive role rather than it's current "seek death quickly" mode. Sure it all looks great if you're running fraps making videos for YouTube, but actual usefulness in game play is considerably less spectacular.
I'm not in favor of losing boffs to the separated parts, that would involve sacrificing critical bridge officer powers and buffs to what would still be AI controlled ships even if we had a marginal carrier/away team type control interface. Spreading those powers over multiple parts would be complicated to manage and I've no doubt too complicated for developers to implement properly without a lot of work.
We're trying to get them to extend an already existing game asset, carrier commands, to separated parts, the amount of development time and effort required would be considerably less than that required to invent a whole new system for separated parts involving Boff assignments.

davidwford

red01999 wrote: »

I can... almost sorta see that argument for the Galaxy and Odyssey saucers. Truth be told - and this is missed by like half the people who complain about the fact that the option even exists - the bonus of saucer separation was already explained on the show itself, and carries over to STO. The point is to get RID of the saucer. The fact that it hangs around is a bonus (usually, sometimes a disadvantage).

While I would concede your point on both the Oddy and the Galaxy-R, that argument is less convincing for the Galaxy-X. Yes, for the Galaxy-R, the families are suppose to evac to the Saucer and get out of Dodge. For the Galaxy-X, however, families would NOT be aboard as it is a BATTLESHIP. While the Galaxy-R would have luxurious accommodations for families, the Galaxy-X would have Spartan accommodations. They are likely bunkrooms much like on Navy ships today; 16 inches, and hot bunking (one guy gets into bed as soon as the other gets out). Therefore, the saucer WOULD be a combat component much like the MVAM of the Prommy. If not, what is the point of separation?

centersolace

red01999 wrote: »

I can... almost sorta see that argument for the Galaxy and Odyssey saucers. Truth be told - and this is missed by like half the people who complain about the fact that the option even exists - the bonus of saucer separation was already explained on the show itself, and carries over to STO. The point is to get RID of the saucer. The fact that it hangs around is a bonus (usually, sometimes a disadvantage).

However, the Aquarius and MVAE units... no. The Aquarius is weak enough as-is, and is supposed to act like a tougher fighter - go out and engage threats in a firepower-licious fashion ahead of the main mothership, which it is arguably there to protect. As-is, it's a gnat that, when it actually does enough to get noticed, gets swatted and accordingly fares as well as a gnat does against a person's hand, except without any of the gnat's knack for survival.

The MVAE, the entire point is 3-vs-1 combat. That said, I have had a lot more luck with the MVAE than any of the other separation craft (and I own all of the Federation ones, as far as I know, except for the Fleet MVAE). That said, I think the AI on the MVAE is somehow superior to that of the other units, though it still needs improvement.

Note I do not agree that the separable pets should not have controls, merely that I can understand the arguments for the saucers.

That would be great if the Saucer went away. But it doesn't behave like it did in the shows. :P

maxvitor

centersolace wrote: »

That would be great if the Saucer went away. But it doesn't behave like it did in the shows. :P

There's the rub. If the saucer avoided combat, fled away from enemies and maybe threw heals your way once in while it would be staying within it's canon role in the series, but it has been made a combat pet, engaging targets and basically acting as a distraction requiring your attention when you least need it.
It's remarkable that something as substantial as an undocked section of a Starship doesn't have a better UI interface than throw away cannon fodder like hanger pets.

centersolace

maxvitor wrote: »

There's the rub. If the saucer avoided combat, fled away from enemies and maybe threw heals your way once in while it would be staying within it's canon role in the series, but it has been made a combat pet, engaging targets and basically acting as a distraction requiring your attention when you least need it.
It's remarkable that something as substantial as an undocked section of a Starship doesn't have a better UI interface than throw away cannon fodder like hanger pets.

Well it was used in combat. It was used to defeat Locutus in The Best of Both Worlds.

If only it worked like that too.

sentinel64

The separated parts may never get a level of control we want, but some basic control should be possible. The three basic commands can be Defend, Support and Attack.

Defend - keeps the separated pet close to you and it shoots at things shooting at you.

Support - uses special abilities to keep you alive or supports the defense of a designated object

Attack - goes after the nearest threat (but should return to you when the threat is gone or you move a certain distance away from the pet).

Overall, the pet AI needs to be improved in how the separated pet acts, especially hanging around exploding ships. The basic commands will also allow the player to determine what the pet does while separated from the base ship.

vetteguy904

Actually what I would like to see is

attack: close with enemy inflict as much damage as possible
Harass: stand off and engage long range, sci torp etc.
support: don't engage throw hull and shield heal, and buffs like attack patterns
Return/disengage