tacofangs was talking a little about this the other day too.. with metrics, and how they lost players, and need to retain players, and blah blah blah.. to be honest, its all old...
sto has been a rollercoaster ride.. and to be honest, has at time had some major luck in timing..
star trek online spent the first 3 seasons with a strong hardcore star trek player base.. these were the players who payed for stuff, bought the special edition game packs before the game came out, and bought a ton of life time subs..
then, we started into the content drought.. no game can survive the devs ignoring the game.. and thus, they lost a lot of players..
then, they had featured episodes, and trekkies dug it.. but.. we also started getting lock box ships, and canon started to get ***** (not just broken). Most trekkies immersion wasn't just being broken, but blatenly taken from them.. and thus, the game lost most (not all, but most) of its hardcore trek fanbase..
grinding hits, and so does free to play, adopting a new type of player, the more casual star trek fan, who is more into scif fi, than star trek.. and more importantly, a free game.. this further separated the game from a "star trek" feel. thus, (at least trekkie communities I am apart of) were disenchanted, and though they tried to return, they wrote the game off (some for good this time)..
then, the game swung into a profit only type of development, where they released one of the smallest expansions I have ever seen in the gaming community. and not only did they cheap out on actually expanding on the whole game, they didn't even release a whole faction.. this further pushed trekkies away, and started to make the new free loafers scratch their heads, as the only way to gain access to more than half of the new content, was to pay for it. (ie, ships, races, clothing, etc).
so the federation and Klingon players (being pretty much skipped over in the first expansion) asked for more story content.. what we got was far from it.. season 8, wasn't just a little kids wet dream (dinos that talk with lazer beams on their heads) but it lacked story.. sure, lots of stuff to blow up, and an explanation here and there.. when questioned, the devs said, oh the story is there, but you have to grind, and dig, and work to find it.. WHAT..... waite a second.. the story was hidden as nuggets.. no.. accolades, and other suprises are nuggets, not story.. wow... the most story we got out of this season 8 debacle, was the two featured episodes.. that's all... a whole season, and only two missions give you any story..
the moral of the story is, that now, they are saying that they have to make the game feel more trek.. (even though the player base has been telling them that for years, day late and a doller short).. they are claiming that their metrics showed them that all of this stuff should have been popular (cause out of boredome, and people needing the equipment to complete their characters, they play it anyways)..
I agree with the player who said earlier, that metrics do not show you why.. why is the fundamental thing when asking "why" someone plays something...
as far as im concearned, cryptic has made the right moves at the right time, just barely keeping the game alive at times.. most people I talk to always say, next season.;... next season will be better,... next season will fix things... next season they will make story.... well, a lot of those same pople are starting to say they are tired of waiting for this mystical season, the season that will fix the game, the season when the devs finally find the hearbeat of the player base... ironic that cats have 9 lives, and we are headed into season 9, and only now, are the devs starting to show some sign that they are getting what the problems are... lol...
I agree with the player who said earlier, that metrics do not show you why.. why is the fundamental thing when asking "why" someone plays something...
There's a reason why businesses use metrics, and it's because getting to the "why" of consumer behavior is almost impossible. The only person who can tell you "why" he does something is the individual, and already there you have a problem. People often can't tell you why they do something, especially when you're talking about impulsive behavior (and let's face it, most MMO cash-shops are specifically targeting impulsive behavior), and even when they do think they know why they do something, they're often wrong. People will also out and out lie to you about the reasons why they do things as well (e.g. the many hardcore raiders in MMOs who say that they're in it for the challenge, when they're actually motivated by shinies.)
So if "why" is impossible to ascertain, you have to rely on other things, and it turns out a pretty good way to predict what people will do tomorrow is to look at what they did yesterday. Hence, metrics.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
It's all about the metrics! (and it runs for several minutes).
He does not sound like somebody talking about how to make/keep an entertainment product entertaining...
These holy metrics can only show what happend but never the reason.
"After years of having the KDF ignored there is now still not a 50/50 split with having tutorial & missions" and that probably does not have anything to do with years of next to nothing.
He does not sound like somebody talking about how to make/keep an entertainment product entertaining...
These holy metrics can only show what happend but never the reason.
"After years of having the KDF ignored there is now still not a 50/50 split with having tutorial & missions" and that probably does not have anything to do with years of next to nothing.
Not sure what this company is thinking, but from behavior of this F2P games and other F2P games, these cheap games do not care if old player stays, they want to catch new player who spends money, when they stop they don't care about them anymore. And on to the next new player who will impulse buy. That is why we get the game play that centers around buying things off C store, and not game play that centers around telling a good star trek story.
Although I do kinda like most of the episodes so.. :P
I wonder if they even realize that increasing the satisfaction of existing (new and old) players would actually increase their profits? Surely even metrics could indicate that.
From some of the stuff I've been seeing lately, they seem to be getting it, but that old attitude is still kicking around.
Not sure what this company is thinking, but from behavior of this F2P games and other F2P games, these cheap games do not care if old player stays, they want to catch new player who spends money, when they stop they don't care about them anymore. And on to the next new player who will impulse buy. That is why we get the game play that centers around buying things off C store, and not game play that centers around telling a good star trek story.
It's not a new phenomenon, nor is it confined to online games - Games Workshop (purveyors of the Warhammer line of miniatures games) operated on this principle for a very long time.
Long-time players are inherently something of a millstone; we have our favourite characters and ships, with expansion slots already bought, and are less likely to splurge out on the new stuff - and therefore are far less important than the "newbie" who is buying into the game. I have an LTS but haven't spent real money in 18 months, relying on the Dil and EC exchanges, so from Cryptic's perspective I guess I am a freeloader. And as someone who actually likes Star Trek, there are very few things I can imagine Cryptic introducing which would get me to spend money (Veteran Boffs on a par with Romulan ones being the only serious example).
On the other hand, the ship loadouts system does seem focussed on long-term players; those who have acquired multiple Lockbox / fleet ships and top-level gear combinations. Really, this is the first obviously "vet-friendly" move since the game's inception and perhaps shows some slightly deeper thinking as regards customer retention.
Just like conservatives wanting to restrict/eliminate welfare programs due to some people abusing the system? :P
Yep. Doesn't matter what the situation in life is. I think it's stupid to punish those who did no wrong because of the few who did. Doesn't the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?
Borg sets were easy to get (5 EDC per deflector/shield/engine, a console as a mission reward). Did you mean Omega/MACO? I was't active when Cryptic switched to the reputation system (and I ended up losing a lot of stuff because of it), the real problem back then was drop rates for "prototype gear" (they could have increased the drop rate or just let you trade in tokens for higher-tier tokens which I do not recall them doing).
When I said Borg Sets I was referring to all Sets gotten by doing the Borg STF missions repeatedly. I was not referring to just one particular Set.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Doesn't the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?
No, in real life it does not. And as we found out in the next movie, that was not even true in the make-believe world of Star Trek.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
He does not sound like somebody talking about how to make/keep an entertainment product entertaining...
These holy metrics can only show what happend but never the reason.
"After years of having the KDF ignored there is now still not a 50/50 split with having tutorial & missions" and that probably does not have anything to do with years of next to nothing.
Also he ignored the fact the updated KDF content was ignored because it came out with LOR. All the attention and advertising was about the Romulan faction and everyone made a Romulan/Reman when it was released. And then most of them allied with the Federation because the KDF had a reputation for having slow queues and more expensive doffs on the exchange.
If they released the KDF content as its own season/expansion before LOR then it would have been different.
Now the KDF will be back to minimal development because of poor short-sighted planning. And once again they will choose to blame the players based on the metrics instead of looking at their own errors.
When I said Borg Sets I was referring to all Sets gotten by doing the Borg STF missions repeatedly. I was not referring to just one particular Set.
Well, the actual Borg (Assimilated) set being obtained with EDC tokens and a mission for the console really cannot be placed into a list with MK XII set-gear for a variety of obvious reasons (availability, not being MK anything till the reputation system, and so on).
Also he ignored the fact the updated KDF content was ignored because it came out with LOR. All the attention and advertising was about the Romulan faction and everyone made a Romulan/Reman when it was released. And then most of them allied with the Federation because the KDF had a reputation for having slow queues and more expensive doffs on the exchange.
If they released the KDF content as its own season/expansion before LOR then it would have been different.
Now the KDF will be back to minimal development because of poor short-sighted planning. And once again they will choose to blame the players based on the metrics instead of looking at their own errors.
the one thing that's irked me with all the talk of Metrics , is game companies use them as a excuse of why they dont spend x resources on Y content .
in STOs case devs mention metrics state that a low number play KDF , well if everything on the kdf worked EXACTLY like the FED side there would be more retention of KDF players . they bandaid fix things and hope for a large metric change. granted its a big improvement lately but these metrics arent going to grow fast , cuz there are still things that dont mesh still .
if PVP was complete there would be more activity there too . but its state is just not really enjoyable to the masses but a select few of elitist players .
just because theres no high metric data on something doesnt mean that its not important to put resources too.
there are things that get broken for these "low metric" activities , even when they get fixed they continually break again and again and stay broken for months . IE KDF Tailor options .
why play Broken Content ?
even when they do a Bug fix season , the next major season update rebreaks alot that was fixed in the first place .
and when dealing with a Well known IP its a fact that a large majority of Fans will always start play with the HERO faction, so for every new Player the hero faction goes up . while the veteran players will start into the other factions .
ive seen this with BSG , SW ,Lotor and with STO . any game that's faction based has these issues , its not that these alternate factions dont have players that enjoy them , its far from it . its just the new player population grows and grows due too game promotions and such .
let hope that the Devs use the metrics and the player base to make better decisions not just relying on metrics alone .
I miss the days when I didn't have to grind through a time-gated rep system for a month to get a space set.
Yeah, yeah, and what about the players who did 600+ STF runs and didn't have a full set? (had two such players in my Fleet back in the old days.)
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Yeah, yeah, and what about the players who did 600+ STF runs and didn't have a full set? (had two such players in my Fleet back in the old days.)
I find it hilarious that some players have this candy-covered nostalgia feel for the game when it was maybe a 1/4 of what it is today. I remember when the only thing left to do is completing Accolades during the Great Content Drought. This was just before the advent of the MACO/Omega sets, where you got the Borg set from completing STFs, where you had to sit over the specific STF planet and call out LFM or LFG until you got a full group.
I find it hilarious that some players have this candy-covered nostalgia feel for the game when it was maybe a 1/4 of what it is today. I remember when the only thing left to do is completing Accolades during the Great Content Drought. This was just before the advent of the MACO/Omega sets, where you got the Borg set from completing STFs, where you had to sit over the specific STF planet and call out LFM or LFG until you got a full group.
What about the changes they made to Nukara? Yeah, we had to spend on average upwards of half an hour calling out LFM or LFG, but we socialized. We chatted & showed off while waiting, swapped tips, and thanks to how the Hards were originally structured it was very newbie-friendly.
Thanks to the change to queue-based format for those missions, I'm spending an hour less in the game now. And that is an hour of fun that I sorely miss.
Yeah, yeah, and what about the players who did 600+ STF runs and didn't have a full set? (had two such players in my Fleet back in the old days.)
only full set i didnt get was MK 12 maco only needed the deflector dish got the MK 10 idk how many time same for 11 of all sets at the time even have a full MK 12 omega only ppl i cant see who didnt get a set are one who play few hours a week now we who can play more than a few hours a week have to suffer by slide bars time gets and marks
and did we not uset to be able to trade in sets we didnt need for dill?
Yeah, yeah, and what about the players who did 600+ STF runs and didn't have a full set? (had two such players in my Fleet back in the old days.)
MK XII set-pieces only dropped in E-STF and each type (deflector/shield/engine) was tied to a specific E-STF which, as far as I know, had no chance of dropping at all without the optional. And I'm fairly certain all the people I know who have those pieces from back then had to roll for them against other players to win.
If that's how it was for everyone then it's really no surprise that Cryptic's bad implementation being replaced with another bad implementation is nice for you.
The RNG system sucks in any game. Some people get really lucky some people get nothing. It's really bad in newer games because it becomes so obvious what's happening. In GW2 for example even after changing their horrible excuse for a magic find system to something more reasonable there are still reports from players on how they are doing the same events with one another every weekend in the same guild groups where 1 person out of the group always leaves with like every great drop you can have and the rest hardly get anything at all while a couple will always get nothing every run. It's never a good system. I prefer working towards a goal however they should have made reputations account wide, it's ridiculous to do otherwise at this point especially with alts.
The other thing I find suspect is the metrics thing. Seriously if they actually played anything other than Tactical or Engineers they'd know there are some serious issues with both space and ground science skills comparitively. This to me means they really aren't paying attention by manually looking into these things and are just looking at numbers.
Sure there's alot of us playing science but that does not mean science is where it should be in design or balance. Even the ships need some tweaks to make them more viable (like replacing Tier I beam attacks with Tier III on Tier 5.5/fleet ships) so like others have said here metrics don't show you everything.
I too have to laugh at the growing thing, I don't doubt it now but forgetting that the first year was horrible due to the team not listening to it's playerbase and losing a crapton of players suddenly just isn't healthy. Science captains have been absolutely screaming at these people now since Season 6 it's our turn.
Comments
sto has been a rollercoaster ride.. and to be honest, has at time had some major luck in timing..
star trek online spent the first 3 seasons with a strong hardcore star trek player base.. these were the players who payed for stuff, bought the special edition game packs before the game came out, and bought a ton of life time subs..
then, we started into the content drought.. no game can survive the devs ignoring the game.. and thus, they lost a lot of players..
then, they had featured episodes, and trekkies dug it.. but.. we also started getting lock box ships, and canon started to get ***** (not just broken). Most trekkies immersion wasn't just being broken, but blatenly taken from them.. and thus, the game lost most (not all, but most) of its hardcore trek fanbase..
grinding hits, and so does free to play, adopting a new type of player, the more casual star trek fan, who is more into scif fi, than star trek.. and more importantly, a free game.. this further separated the game from a "star trek" feel. thus, (at least trekkie communities I am apart of) were disenchanted, and though they tried to return, they wrote the game off (some for good this time)..
then, the game swung into a profit only type of development, where they released one of the smallest expansions I have ever seen in the gaming community. and not only did they cheap out on actually expanding on the whole game, they didn't even release a whole faction.. this further pushed trekkies away, and started to make the new free loafers scratch their heads, as the only way to gain access to more than half of the new content, was to pay for it. (ie, ships, races, clothing, etc).
so the federation and Klingon players (being pretty much skipped over in the first expansion) asked for more story content.. what we got was far from it.. season 8, wasn't just a little kids wet dream (dinos that talk with lazer beams on their heads) but it lacked story.. sure, lots of stuff to blow up, and an explanation here and there.. when questioned, the devs said, oh the story is there, but you have to grind, and dig, and work to find it.. WHAT..... waite a second.. the story was hidden as nuggets.. no.. accolades, and other suprises are nuggets, not story.. wow... the most story we got out of this season 8 debacle, was the two featured episodes.. that's all... a whole season, and only two missions give you any story..
the moral of the story is, that now, they are saying that they have to make the game feel more trek.. (even though the player base has been telling them that for years, day late and a doller short).. they are claiming that their metrics showed them that all of this stuff should have been popular (cause out of boredome, and people needing the equipment to complete their characters, they play it anyways)..
I agree with the player who said earlier, that metrics do not show you why.. why is the fundamental thing when asking "why" someone plays something...
as far as im concearned, cryptic has made the right moves at the right time, just barely keeping the game alive at times.. most people I talk to always say, next season.;... next season will be better,... next season will fix things... next season they will make story.... well, a lot of those same pople are starting to say they are tired of waiting for this mystical season, the season that will fix the game, the season when the devs finally find the hearbeat of the player base... ironic that cats have 9 lives, and we are headed into season 9, and only now, are the devs starting to show some sign that they are getting what the problems are... lol...
Yes, yes you were. You probably had full sets on all your toons before I had 1 set on 1 toon.
Agreed.
Basically, if none of us loved Star Trek then we wouldn't be getting this upset over what a bunch of hacks are doing to the game.
There's a reason why businesses use metrics, and it's because getting to the "why" of consumer behavior is almost impossible. The only person who can tell you "why" he does something is the individual, and already there you have a problem. People often can't tell you why they do something, especially when you're talking about impulsive behavior (and let's face it, most MMO cash-shops are specifically targeting impulsive behavior), and even when they do think they know why they do something, they're often wrong. People will also out and out lie to you about the reasons why they do things as well (e.g. the many hardcore raiders in MMOs who say that they're in it for the challenge, when they're actually motivated by shinies.)
So if "why" is impossible to ascertain, you have to rely on other things, and it turns out a pretty good way to predict what people will do tomorrow is to look at what they did yesterday. Hence, metrics.
system Lord Baal is dead
He does not sound like somebody talking about how to make/keep an entertainment product entertaining...
These holy metrics can only show what happend but never the reason.
"After years of having the KDF ignored there is now still not a 50/50 split with having tutorial & missions" and that probably does not have anything to do with years of next to nothing.
Not sure what this company is thinking, but from behavior of this F2P games and other F2P games, these cheap games do not care if old player stays, they want to catch new player who spends money, when they stop they don't care about them anymore. And on to the next new player who will impulse buy. That is why we get the game play that centers around buying things off C store, and not game play that centers around telling a good star trek story.
Although I do kinda like most of the episodes so.. :P
From some of the stuff I've been seeing lately, they seem to be getting it, but that old attitude is still kicking around.
It's not a new phenomenon, nor is it confined to online games - Games Workshop (purveyors of the Warhammer line of miniatures games) operated on this principle for a very long time.
Long-time players are inherently something of a millstone; we have our favourite characters and ships, with expansion slots already bought, and are less likely to splurge out on the new stuff - and therefore are far less important than the "newbie" who is buying into the game. I have an LTS but haven't spent real money in 18 months, relying on the Dil and EC exchanges, so from Cryptic's perspective I guess I am a freeloader. And as someone who actually likes Star Trek, there are very few things I can imagine Cryptic introducing which would get me to spend money (Veteran Boffs on a par with Romulan ones being the only serious example).
On the other hand, the ship loadouts system does seem focussed on long-term players; those who have acquired multiple Lockbox / fleet ships and top-level gear combinations. Really, this is the first obviously "vet-friendly" move since the game's inception and perhaps shows some slightly deeper thinking as regards customer retention.
Just like conservatives wanting to restrict/eliminate welfare programs due to some people abusing the system? :P
Yep. Doesn't matter what the situation in life is. I think it's stupid to punish those who did no wrong because of the few who did. Doesn't the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?
Also he ignored the fact the updated KDF content was ignored because it came out with LOR. All the attention and advertising was about the Romulan faction and everyone made a Romulan/Reman when it was released. And then most of them allied with the Federation because the KDF had a reputation for having slow queues and more expensive doffs on the exchange.
If they released the KDF content as its own season/expansion before LOR then it would have been different.
Now the KDF will be back to minimal development because of poor short-sighted planning. And once again they will choose to blame the players based on the metrics instead of looking at their own errors.
Absolutely ridiculous.
Well, the actual Borg (Assimilated) set being obtained with EDC tokens and a mission for the console really cannot be placed into a list with MK XII set-gear for a variety of obvious reasons (availability, not being MK anything till the reputation system, and so on).
Absolutely ridiculous is an understatement.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
in STOs case devs mention metrics state that a low number play KDF , well if everything on the kdf worked EXACTLY like the FED side there would be more retention of KDF players . they bandaid fix things and hope for a large metric change. granted its a big improvement lately but these metrics arent going to grow fast , cuz there are still things that dont mesh still .
if PVP was complete there would be more activity there too . but its state is just not really enjoyable to the masses but a select few of elitist players .
just because theres no high metric data on something doesnt mean that its not important to put resources too.
there are things that get broken for these "low metric" activities , even when they get fixed they continually break again and again and stay broken for months . IE KDF Tailor options .
why play Broken Content ?
even when they do a Bug fix season , the next major season update rebreaks alot that was fixed in the first place .
and when dealing with a Well known IP its a fact that a large majority of Fans will always start play with the HERO faction, so for every new Player the hero faction goes up . while the veteran players will start into the other factions .
ive seen this with BSG , SW ,Lotor and with STO . any game that's faction based has these issues , its not that these alternate factions dont have players that enjoy them , its far from it . its just the new player population grows and grows due too game promotions and such .
let hope that the Devs use the metrics and the player base to make better decisions not just relying on metrics alone .
Yeah, yeah, and what about the players who did 600+ STF runs and didn't have a full set? (had two such players in my Fleet back in the old days.)
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I find it hilarious that some players have this candy-covered nostalgia feel for the game when it was maybe a 1/4 of what it is today. I remember when the only thing left to do is completing Accolades during the Great Content Drought. This was just before the advent of the MACO/Omega sets, where you got the Borg set from completing STFs, where you had to sit over the specific STF planet and call out LFM or LFG until you got a full group.
What about the changes they made to Nukara? Yeah, we had to spend on average upwards of half an hour calling out LFM or LFG, but we socialized. We chatted & showed off while waiting, swapped tips, and thanks to how the Hards were originally structured it was very newbie-friendly.
Thanks to the change to queue-based format for those missions, I'm spending an hour less in the game now. And that is an hour of fun that I sorely miss.
only full set i didnt get was MK 12 maco only needed the deflector dish got the MK 10 idk how many time same for 11 of all sets at the time even have a full MK 12 omega only ppl i cant see who didnt get a set are one who play few hours a week now we who can play more than a few hours a week have to suffer by slide bars time gets and marks
and did we not uset to be able to trade in sets we didnt need for dill?
system Lord Baal is dead
MK XII set-pieces only dropped in E-STF and each type (deflector/shield/engine) was tied to a specific E-STF which, as far as I know, had no chance of dropping at all without the optional. And I'm fairly certain all the people I know who have those pieces from back then had to roll for them against other players to win.
If that's how it was for everyone then it's really no surprise that Cryptic's bad implementation being replaced with another bad implementation is nice for you.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The other thing I find suspect is the metrics thing. Seriously if they actually played anything other than Tactical or Engineers they'd know there are some serious issues with both space and ground science skills comparitively. This to me means they really aren't paying attention by manually looking into these things and are just looking at numbers.
Sure there's alot of us playing science but that does not mean science is where it should be in design or balance. Even the ships need some tweaks to make them more viable (like replacing Tier I beam attacks with Tier III on Tier 5.5/fleet ships) so like others have said here metrics don't show you everything.
I too have to laugh at the growing thing, I don't doubt it now but forgetting that the first year was horrible due to the team not listening to it's playerbase and losing a crapton of players suddenly just isn't healthy. Science captains have been absolutely screaming at these people now since Season 6 it's our turn.
Try this link and prepare yourself, iit's not about basic forum skills.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]