^^^takes deep breath to Calm and Center Self^^^
---clears throat---
The Abramsverse Reboot has a great cast, on that count only, did it succeed. From the uniforms to the ships they have gone overboard reinventing the proverbial wheel! JJ's Enterprise is not what most fans expected much less wanted. My Revulsion at the JJ Enterprise was orders of magnitude greater than what I felt initially for the Galaxy-class. Whereas my revulsion for the Galaxy-class has mellowed somewhat, my revulsion for the JJ Enterprise remains very high.
There's a really good article or two at Ex Astris Scientia with regard to scaling issues. Alternate "canon" sources give contradictory dimensions for the JJ Enterprise at sizes ranging from Trek's Sovereign-class ships to an Imperial-class Star Destroyer! This blatant Star Wars-envy is made all the more ridiculous by the fact that a simple comparison of details on the JJ Enterprise to the TOS Constitution-class and the Enterprise/Constitution Refit-class reveals the true size/scaling of the JJ Enterprise is 366m! Not 750m!! Not 1500m!!! A size I can learn to live with.
As for the "tech that Gene never thought of", I don't know what I can call that without violating Forum Community Policy. Except perhaps the fact it was totally incorrect. The Red Matter is the only tech shown in the movie that is conceptually new. Everything about the JJ Enterprise is just a 'reimagining' of the TOS' tech and aesthetics. A reimagining Gone Wrong, imho.
You honestly think that ship corridors that GIGANTIC, an engineering area god knows how many times of the Galaxy plus in the second movie that gigantic area mid ships, and you're going to cram that into 366 M?
That is flatly and physically impossible. To get the sizes of the halls, bridge, and rest of the ship at a bare MINIMUM it would have to be the size of a galaxy, if not a tad bigger. And the galaxy didn't have a bridge, or hallways that big.
Just pointing that out.
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You didn't understand me bluegeek. When I said "horse's mouth", I ment from a CBS representative.
With all due respect, I'm at a point where I have some...difficulties trusting everything Cryptic says, especially about statements made in the particular period when the 'CBS said no' popped out.
I remember Cryptic saying that CBS doesn't want too many Federation/KDF players flying alien ships when people asked the lockbox ships to be put in the C-Store, so they have to be very limited. After only 2 lockboxes we got the first lobi ship, which turned very limited into just very expensive, but not limited any more. And then they started giving free alien ships to everyone during events.
So I hope you understand when I say that in order for me to really believe that, I need to hear it from CBS themselves.
Okay, I get that you don't trust them on this.
Let's suppose that CBS didn't say no. And just for argument's sake, let's assume that a T5 Connie would make Cryptic a Galaxy-full of money.
How then do you explain why we don't already have one? Cryptic's never been shy about making ships that they can sell us. What makes this one different?
They've never given us any other answer than "CBS said no". Never said it doesn't fit their vision for the game. Never said it would never sell. Never said it was canonically impossible that a Connie could match a Sovereign. Never said Geko hates Connies, as far as I know. None of that.
Cryptic doesn't seem to have any good reason to exclude Connies from the retrofit treatment that wouldn't be solved by a lot of time and money. They've shown themselves willing to justify a lot of things that some players claim would be "uncanonical". Starfleet and KDF flying alien ships just for example. "Dinosaurs with lasers" as a more recent example.
The only other reason I can come up with is that they think they'll get blowback if they don't produce a T5 Connie that can kick everything else's butts, or criticism that they "didn't do it right" so they don't even want to touch it. Even then, I see no good reason for them to pin that on CBS.
So what's the limiting factor here? I find the "CBS said no" argument to be entirely plausible under those terms. It's not the only thing we've ever been told that CBS put restrictions on.
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In The Motionless Picture we learned that warp engine imbalances can create worm holes instead of warp bubbles. A millisecond after that picture was taken the child was sucked into the wormhole and was sent across the known universe. I hope he landed safely. He might have 'sploded.
Let's suppose that CBS didn't say no. And just for argument's sake, let's assume that a T5 Connie would make Cryptic a Galaxy-full of money.
How then do you explain why we don't already have one? Cryptic's never been shy about making ships that they can sell us. What makes this one different?
Honestly, and do consider that I didn't use to think like this, but watching how reluctant they seem to be in doing any significant improvements to the Galaxy-R it gets me wondering wheather all the people that said Cryptic is afraid to do a stronger Galaxy bacause it may leed to reduced purchases of future ships (which I considered and still partially consider nothing more than conspiracy theories) could be in fact right.
And if they're right, that would mean that Cryptic would be even more reluctant to release a T5 Connie if they feel it may hurt future sales by having people happy with their one legendary ship.
They've never given us any other answer than "CBS said no". Never said it doesn't fit their vision for the game. Never said it would never sell. Never said it was canonically impossible that a Connie could match a Sovereign. Never said Geko hates Connies, as far as I know. None of that.
Exactly. I'm not saying it's not true because I have no way of really knowing that, but there is the looming suspicion that they're using it as an excuse, considering what I previously mentioned to be true.
Cryptic doesn't seem to have any good reason to exclude Connies from the retrofit treatment that wouldn't be solved by a lot of time and money. They've shown themselves willing to justify a lot of things that some players claim would be "uncanonical". Starfleet and KDF flying alien ships just for example. "Dinosaurs with lasers" as a more recent example.
And this is actually the part that has me wondering the most. If CBS has no issue with Starfleet & KDF Captains having unlimited access to various alien ships or "Dinos with frickin' lasers" and such, what could possibly their issue be with the Constitution?
The only other reason I can come up with is that they think they'll get blowback if they don't produce a T5 Connie that can kick everything else's butts, or criticism that they "didn't do it right" so they don't even want to touch it. Even then, I see no good reason for them to pin that on CBS.
So what's the limiting factor here? I find the "CBS said no" argument to be entirely plausible under those terms. It's not the only thing we've ever been told that CBS put restrictions on.
I'm not saying that the 'CBS said no' argument is not plausible. It's perfectly plausible, they're the IP holder and they can do whatever they please - no doubt about it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of the dedicated Connie fans that feels he must have the ship, I just emphatize with those people, especially after seing many things that make even less sense make it into the game.
What I'm saying is that we need an oficial confirmation from a CBS representative who will say "Yes we say no to T5 Constitution Class, we can't ellaborate why but we have our reasons." so we can finally tie this endless Connie debate. No room for suspicion, no room for speculation - whenever someone starts a Connie thread, you (the mods) could just link the CBS reply and be done with it.
In The Motionless Picture we learned that warp engine imbalances can create worm holes instead of warp bubbles. A millisecond after that picture was taken the child was sucked into the wormhole and was sent across the known universe. I hope he landed safely. He might have 'sploded.
You've given me much to ponder. And I too hope the child landed safely.
You honestly think that ship corridors that GIGANTIC, an engineering area god knows how many times of the Galaxy plus in the second movie that gigantic area mid ships, and you're going to cram that into 366 M?
That is flatly and physically impossible. To get the sizes of the halls, bridge, and rest of the ship at a bare MINIMUM it would have to be the size of a galaxy, if not a tad bigger. And the galaxy didn't have a bridge, or hallways that big.
My above size comparison with correct relative scales speaks for itself. Everyone has to agree with me that, if we base our estimation just on the picture with the relative sizes and not on the visual effects from the movie, the true length of the new ship has to be much closer to 302m (my original assumption) than to 725m, and that Church's size of 366m works well. The 725m version is undeniably totally out of proportion.
Basically, to sum it up, the JJprise was probably originally intended to be around 366 meters long, but once VFX crews couldn't fit all of the shuttlecraft in the bay, they scaled up the ship *only* in certain scenes. Unforunately, the boiler house, warp core, etc would never fit inside that space.
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In The Motionless Picture we learned that warp engine imbalances can create worm holes instead of warp bubbles. A millisecond after that picture was taken the child was sucked into the wormhole and was sent across the known universe. I hope he landed safely. He might have 'sploded.
I'm going to laugh *IF* the T5 Connie appears ten years down the line and it comes with a feature that would spawn a wormhole around the ship when it's in warp in Sector Space. It'll then move you to an instance map in which you have to destroy an asteroid heading to your ship, otherwise it 1-hit KOs you. You cannot move or turn so you have to use your forward facing weapons only (it'll be too mean to say you have to destroy it with a torpedo weapon because some cruiser builds don't have torpedoes).
Kinda like how the Excelsior's transwarp in the game would randomly klonk out like it did in Start Trek III.
Member since November 2009... I think. (UFP) Ragnar
Basically, to sum it up, the JJprise was probably originally intended to be around 366 meters long, but once VFX crews couldn't fit all of the shuttlecraft in the bay, they scaled up the ship *only* in certain scenes. Unforunately, the boiler house, warp core, etc would never fit inside that space.
Ahh, that's a good one, I like it.
Thank you, stardestroyer001. You summed it up better/more eloquently than I would have. Sadly the reboots' Enterprise has more production blunders than the TOS & DS9 had Tribbles. Or as I call them, "Design 'don'ts'."
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Pointless point is pointless. A ship traveling at warp speed is inside a warp bubble (Alcubierre drive). Holes in the ship will not improve the warp bubble. Because it's a bubble. Bubbles are round.
Even more pointless point is even more pointless. A warp drive is not an Alcubierre drive, despite the fact it inspired the theory. And because ST writers are TRIBBLE at internal consistency, the only consistent thing about it is that uses handwavium to distort space and move the ship.
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i'm not sure what is the saddest.. the stupid retorts, "pointless" whatever, that two (in theory) grown men are arguing about something that doesn't exist and has no real bearing on gameplay, or that I just read through 46 pages of it.
i'm not sure what is the saddest.. the stupid retorts, "pointless" whatever, that two (in theory) grown men are arguing about something that doesn't exist and has no real bearing on gameplay, or that I just read through 46 pages of it.
I think I'll go be sick now
+1 Could not have said it better myself....
Though, I still support a T5 Connie!
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After fighting so many Mirror Mirandas in the Mirror event, I think it's pretty much time for a T5 Miranda.
I'd like to get a Tier X Oddy like the U.S.S. Enterprise-F... it's something like 634,000 hull strength! :eek:
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That's quite the paradox, how could you nerf nerf when the nerf is nerfed. But how would the nerf be nerfed when the nerf is nerfed? This allows the nerf not to be nerfed since the nerf is nerfed? But if the nerf isn't nerfed, it could still nerf nerfs. But as soon as the nerf is nerfed, the nerf power is lost. So paradoxally it the nerf nerf lost its nerf, while it's still nerfed, which cannot be because the nerf was unable to nerf.
After fighting so many Mirror Mirandas in the Mirror event, I think it's pretty much time for a T5 Miranda.
I'm not sure which Mirror event you're playing, but the one I play in, these ships don't even qualify as a speed bump. Not even a Miranda, Centaur, and Shi'kar combined. Seriously, they explode before my weapons even finish their first firing cycle.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement for T5, but does line up with a Miranda's performance in DS9 quite well.
Isn't that the same for the KDf B'rel bird of prey, though?
If the B'rel works as a Tier 5 ship and for frigate encounters, there's little excuse not to have the Miranda fall under the same umbrella.
Except the B'rel has been competently and effectively used as late as the Dominion War, because the Klingon model appears to be to use largely the same chassis with different tech inside (kind of the way the playable NX is a cosmetic replica with modern systems under the hood, because military shipbuilders apparently build things for fun). Whereas the only thing a Miranda ever did during the Dominion War was explode from being looked at sternly.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
the only thing a Miranda ever did during the Dominion War was explode from being looked at sternly.
Enough lies already! Recovered sensor data from that Miranda's black box CLEARLY STATE that the cause of destruction was the Chief Engineer sneezing near the warp core! :P
I'm not sure which Mirror event you're playing, but the one I play in, these ships don't even qualify as a speed bump. Not even a Miranda, Centaur, and Shi'kar combined. Seriously, they explode before my weapons even finish their first firing cycle.
The elite one, where they don't do what you suggest they do, and where they add support with TSS and other assorted powers to help make killing the Typhoons and Lunas even more annoying.
Hyperbole about the Miranda is all fun and games, so have at it. But really, the Mirror Event demonstrates just fine that the ship can function as well as any other at T5.
The Mirror Event demonstrates just fine that the ship can function as well as any other at T5.
The Mirror Event is grossly inaccurate. My "Pseudo-Treknobabble" Detector goes off like crazy every time I run that mission. Anti-tachyon pulse that sucks up ships? Collectors that send power... but where do they get their power from?
The whole mission is nonsensical. I wouldn't take anything seriously from that mission.
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The elite one, where they don't do what you suggest they do, and where they add support with TSS and other assorted powers to help make killing the Typhoons and Lunas even more annoying.
Hyperbole about the Miranda is all fun and games, so have at it. But really, the Mirror Event demonstrates just fine that the ship can function as well as any other at T5.
The Mirror Event is grossly inaccurate. My "Pseudo-Treknobabble" Detector goes off like crazy every time I run that mission. Anti-tachyon pulse that sucks up ships? Collectors that send power... but where do they get their power from?
The whole mission is nonsensical. I wouldn't take anything seriously from that mission.
Why? Just because you disagree with the notion of a Tier Five Miranda/Light Cruiser?
Why? Just because you disagree with the notion of a Tier Five Miranda/Light Cruiser?
I never mentioned the Miranda at all in my post.
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I'm not sure which Mirror event you're playing, but the one I play in, these ships don't even qualify as a speed bump. Not even a Miranda, Centaur, and Shi'kar combined. Seriously, they explode before my weapons even finish their first firing cycle.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement for T5, but does line up with a Miranda's performance in DS9 quite well.
snoggymack22 responded:
The elite one, where they don't do what you suggest they do, and where they add support with TSS and other assorted powers to help make killing the Typhoons and Lunas even more annoying.
Hyperbole about the Miranda is all fun and games, so have at it. But really, the Mirror Event demonstrates just fine that the ship can function as well as any other at T5.
And your response to snoggymack22:
The Mirror Event is grossly inaccurate. My "Pseudo-Treknobabble" Detector goes off like crazy every time I run that mission. Anti-tachyon pulse that sucks up ships? Collectors that send power... but where do they get their power from?
The whole mission is nonsensical. I wouldn't take anything seriously from that mission.
Two plus two always equals four. It was a reasonable assumption based on that line of discussion, combined with your past opposition to certain vessels having playable T5 variants.
Let's see what I really mean, as opposed to what you think I meant.
My opinion is not "just because disagree with the notion of a Tier Five Miranda/Light Cruiser?". My opinion is that the "evidence" for a T5 Miranda is flawed, since all evidence seen from the Mirror Event is flawed and heavily inaccurate.
I then went into an explanation of why Mirror Event content is inaccurate and makes no sense for the IP it's in. And thus, any derivative of the Mirror Event is subject to scrutiny.
So really, the T5 Miranda junk is one side effect of a mission whose ingame justifications are nonsensical.
Next time, don't jump to conclusions about what you think other people are basing their reasonings on.
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Let's see what I really mean, as opposed to what you think I meant.
I posted quotes to support my reasons for thinking such. It was a reasonable assumption based on the progression of the discussion. No flights of fancy were required.
My opinion is not "just because disagree with the notion of a Tier Five Miranda/Light Cruiser?". My opinion is that the "evidence" for a T5 Miranda is flawed, since all evidence seen from the Mirror Event is flawed and heavily inaccurate.
As you pointed out, this is your opinion. I'm jelly with that. However, considering your ridiculously zealous posting regarding older vessels at T5, it was an honest assumption to make, even if incorrect.
I then went into an explanation of why Mirror Event content is inaccurate and makes no sense for the IP it's in. And thus, any derivative of the Mirror Event is subject to scrutiny.
Once again, in your opinion. And no scrutiny is required for a game AND IP that "jumped the shark", as it were, a long time ago. Except, of course, to anal-retentive Trekkies that helped kill the IP in the first place.
So really, the T5 Miranda junk is one side effect of a mission whose ingame justifications are nonsensical.
Once again, in your opinion. The Mirror Event is really no more nonsensical than anything else in-game or in the franchise.
Next time, don't jump to conclusions about what you think other people are basing their reasonings on
.
I didn't jump to conclusion, Sunshine. Like I said, an honest assumption based on the path of the quote trees and your known stances regarding in-game ships. If I was wrong, so be it. But don't presume to question my reading comprehension or instruct me on how to discuss things on the internet. Perhaps you need to be a little more specific in your points in the future, Mr. Crusader.
Comments
You honestly think that ship corridors that GIGANTIC, an engineering area god knows how many times of the Galaxy plus in the second movie that gigantic area mid ships, and you're going to cram that into 366 M?
That is flatly and physically impossible. To get the sizes of the halls, bridge, and rest of the ship at a bare MINIMUM it would have to be the size of a galaxy, if not a tad bigger. And the galaxy didn't have a bridge, or hallways that big.
Just pointing that out.
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Okay, I get that you don't trust them on this.
Let's suppose that CBS didn't say no. And just for argument's sake, let's assume that a T5 Connie would make Cryptic a Galaxy-full of money.
How then do you explain why we don't already have one? Cryptic's never been shy about making ships that they can sell us. What makes this one different?
They've never given us any other answer than "CBS said no". Never said it doesn't fit their vision for the game. Never said it would never sell. Never said it was canonically impossible that a Connie could match a Sovereign. Never said Geko hates Connies, as far as I know. None of that.
Cryptic doesn't seem to have any good reason to exclude Connies from the retrofit treatment that wouldn't be solved by a lot of time and money. They've shown themselves willing to justify a lot of things that some players claim would be "uncanonical". Starfleet and KDF flying alien ships just for example. "Dinosaurs with lasers" as a more recent example.
The only other reason I can come up with is that they think they'll get blowback if they don't produce a T5 Connie that can kick everything else's butts, or criticism that they "didn't do it right" so they don't even want to touch it. Even then, I see no good reason for them to pin that on CBS.
So what's the limiting factor here? I find the "CBS said no" argument to be entirely plausible under those terms. It's not the only thing we've ever been told that CBS put restrictions on.
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Honestly, and do consider that I didn't use to think like this, but watching how reluctant they seem to be in doing any significant improvements to the Galaxy-R it gets me wondering wheather all the people that said Cryptic is afraid to do a stronger Galaxy bacause it may leed to reduced purchases of future ships (which I considered and still partially consider nothing more than conspiracy theories) could be in fact right.
And if they're right, that would mean that Cryptic would be even more reluctant to release a T5 Connie if they feel it may hurt future sales by having people happy with their one legendary ship.
Exactly. I'm not saying it's not true because I have no way of really knowing that, but there is the looming suspicion that they're using it as an excuse, considering what I previously mentioned to be true.
And this is actually the part that has me wondering the most. If CBS has no issue with Starfleet & KDF Captains having unlimited access to various alien ships or "Dinos with frickin' lasers" and such, what could possibly their issue be with the Constitution?
I'm not saying that the 'CBS said no' argument is not plausible. It's perfectly plausible, they're the IP holder and they can do whatever they please - no doubt about it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of the dedicated Connie fans that feels he must have the ship, I just emphatize with those people, especially after seing many things that make even less sense make it into the game.
What I'm saying is that we need an oficial confirmation from a CBS representative who will say "Yes we say no to T5 Constitution Class, we can't ellaborate why but we have our reasons." so we can finally tie this endless Connie debate. No room for suspicion, no room for speculation - whenever someone starts a Connie thread, you (the mods) could just link the CBS reply and be done with it.
You've given me much to ponder. And I too hope the child landed safely.
Basically, to sum it up, the JJprise was probably originally intended to be around 366 meters long, but once VFX crews couldn't fit all of the shuttlecraft in the bay, they scaled up the ship *only* in certain scenes. Unforunately, the boiler house, warp core, etc would never fit inside that space.
Ahh, that's a good one, I like it.
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I'm going to laugh *IF* the T5 Connie appears ten years down the line and it comes with a feature that would spawn a wormhole around the ship when it's in warp in Sector Space. It'll then move you to an instance map in which you have to destroy an asteroid heading to your ship, otherwise it 1-hit KOs you. You cannot move or turn so you have to use your forward facing weapons only (it'll be too mean to say you have to destroy it with a torpedo weapon because some cruiser builds don't have torpedoes).
Kinda like how the Excelsior's transwarp in the game would randomly klonk out like it did in Start Trek III.
(UFP) Ragnar
Thank you, stardestroyer001. You summed it up better/more eloquently than I would have. Sadly the reboots' Enterprise has more production blunders than the TOS & DS9 had Tribbles. Or as I call them, "Design 'don'ts'."
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I think I'll go be sick now
+1 Could not have said it better myself....
Though, I still support a T5 Connie!
no T5 Connie. get over it. IMHO, there should not be a T5 ANYTHING that is older than a Galaxy
I do to but if not a T5 Miranda much like the B'rel retrofit or the T'varo.Make the Const. a T3 and have 2 tac slots and cmdr.
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After fighting so many Mirror Mirandas in the Mirror event, I think it's pretty much time for a T5 Miranda.
How do you stand logging in to STO every day when the game is littered with T5 ships older than the Galaxy?
I'd like to get a Tier X Oddy like the U.S.S. Enterprise-F... it's something like 634,000 hull strength! :eek:
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I call it, the Stoutes paradox.
I'm not sure which Mirror event you're playing, but the one I play in, these ships don't even qualify as a speed bump. Not even a Miranda, Centaur, and Shi'kar combined. Seriously, they explode before my weapons even finish their first firing cycle.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement for T5, but does line up with a Miranda's performance in DS9 quite well.
If the B'rel works as a Tier 5 ship and for frigate encounters, there's little excuse not to have the Miranda fall under the same umbrella.
Except the B'rel has been competently and effectively used as late as the Dominion War, because the Klingon model appears to be to use largely the same chassis with different tech inside (kind of the way the playable NX is a cosmetic replica with modern systems under the hood, because military shipbuilders apparently build things for fun). Whereas the only thing a Miranda ever did during the Dominion War was explode from being looked at sternly.
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Enough lies already! Recovered sensor data from that Miranda's black box CLEARLY STATE that the cause of destruction was the Chief Engineer sneezing near the warp core! :P
The elite one, where they don't do what you suggest they do, and where they add support with TSS and other assorted powers to help make killing the Typhoons and Lunas even more annoying.
Hyperbole about the Miranda is all fun and games, so have at it. But really, the Mirror Event demonstrates just fine that the ship can function as well as any other at T5.
The Mirror Event is grossly inaccurate. My "Pseudo-Treknobabble" Detector goes off like crazy every time I run that mission. Anti-tachyon pulse that sucks up ships? Collectors that send power... but where do they get their power from?
The whole mission is nonsensical. I wouldn't take anything seriously from that mission.
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I'm glad somebody else noticed this as well.
Why? Just because you disagree with the notion of a Tier Five Miranda/Light Cruiser?
How do you stand the weaksauce Nebula when the Excel actually had some effort put into it?
I never mentioned the Miranda at all in my post.
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hravik posted this:
snoggymack22 responded:
And your response to snoggymack22:
Two plus two always equals four. It was a reasonable assumption based on that line of discussion, combined with your past opposition to certain vessels having playable T5 variants.
My opinion is not "just because disagree with the notion of a Tier Five Miranda/Light Cruiser?". My opinion is that the "evidence" for a T5 Miranda is flawed, since all evidence seen from the Mirror Event is flawed and heavily inaccurate.
I then went into an explanation of why Mirror Event content is inaccurate and makes no sense for the IP it's in. And thus, any derivative of the Mirror Event is subject to scrutiny.
So really, the T5 Miranda junk is one side effect of a mission whose ingame justifications are nonsensical.
Next time, don't jump to conclusions about what you think other people are basing their reasonings on.
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I posted quotes to support my reasons for thinking such. It was a reasonable assumption based on the progression of the discussion. No flights of fancy were required.
As you pointed out, this is your opinion. I'm jelly with that. However, considering your ridiculously zealous posting regarding older vessels at T5, it was an honest assumption to make, even if incorrect.
Once again, in your opinion. And no scrutiny is required for a game AND IP that "jumped the shark", as it were, a long time ago. Except, of course, to anal-retentive Trekkies that helped kill the IP in the first place.
Once again, in your opinion. The Mirror Event is really no more nonsensical than anything else in-game or in the franchise.
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I didn't jump to conclusion, Sunshine. Like I said, an honest assumption based on the path of the quote trees and your known stances regarding in-game ships. If I was wrong, so be it. But don't presume to question my reading comprehension or instruct me on how to discuss things on the internet. Perhaps you need to be a little more specific in your points in the future, Mr. Crusader.