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PvP Bortasque
vocmcp
Member Posts: 1,134 Arc User
Hey I'm trying to set up a Tactical Bortasque for PvP on my KDF Engineer. I already got some very good and valued advice suggesting I'd turn it into FAW/Beams. However I aimed for an unorthodix cannon build and I just wonder if someone here has experience with similar to what I'm trying. So since both options are bloody expensive builds I'd love some additional feedback instead of burning my EC on it. Maybe someone here tried something similar.
Here's the suggested layout:
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=mcp2_0
(tac consoles would be spire ones ofc)
As you can see I've chosen a dual a2b build with BO2/DEM and CRF1. The reason I haven't used any torp is because I wouldn't have any ability to boost them with. Furthermore I've aimed at making it faster to bypass the insanely slow turnrate (autocanon 2 set bonus, APO & EptE (a2b), fleet neutronium, tachyokinetic). So I hope this would turn fast enough for the cannons to work.
Doffs I plan on using:
- 2 a2b technicians (apparently for a dual a2b build two are enough)
- 2 Shield bypass Sulibans (35% after BO)
- Marion (Do I really need him with the Nadion Inversion I have?)
- Warp Core Engineer with debuff cleanse upon Emergency power use (After all I got 2 of them on dual a2b cycle)
Some things I'm really not sure about would be:
Warp core
No idea what to put there. I guess an AMP one would be good. Probably one for aux. Or the obelisk core for aux. Might also have to look into the spire stuff. Maybe I can find something like AMP/+turn/+Aux in some ways.
Plasmonic leech
Could be replaced by a fleet neutronium for additional turn and resist or point defense system. Do I need the additional energy from the leech with a2b?
Set value
Is that pet and the snare actually really any good? I know the 2 set bonus would be great but apart from that its just another 2500 zen for pretty much identical ships and two consoles?
Turnrate
Will this build turn fast enough for DHC's or regular cannons to be of any use?
(autocanon 2 set bonus, APO & EptE on dual a2b cd's, fleet neutronium, tachyokinetic)
Here's the suggested layout:
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=mcp2_0
(tac consoles would be spire ones ofc)
As you can see I've chosen a dual a2b build with BO2/DEM and CRF1. The reason I haven't used any torp is because I wouldn't have any ability to boost them with. Furthermore I've aimed at making it faster to bypass the insanely slow turnrate (autocanon 2 set bonus, APO & EptE (a2b), fleet neutronium, tachyokinetic). So I hope this would turn fast enough for the cannons to work.
Doffs I plan on using:
- 2 a2b technicians (apparently for a dual a2b build two are enough)
- 2 Shield bypass Sulibans (35% after BO)
- Marion (Do I really need him with the Nadion Inversion I have?)
- Warp Core Engineer with debuff cleanse upon Emergency power use (After all I got 2 of them on dual a2b cycle)
Some things I'm really not sure about would be:
Warp core
No idea what to put there. I guess an AMP one would be good. Probably one for aux. Or the obelisk core for aux. Might also have to look into the spire stuff. Maybe I can find something like AMP/+turn/+Aux in some ways.
Plasmonic leech
Could be replaced by a fleet neutronium for additional turn and resist or point defense system. Do I need the additional energy from the leech with a2b?
Set value
Is that pet and the snare actually really any good? I know the 2 set bonus would be great but apart from that its just another 2500 zen for pretty much identical ships and two consoles?
Turnrate
Will this build turn fast enough for DHC's or regular cannons to be of any use?
(autocanon 2 set bonus, APO & EptE on dual a2b cd's, fleet neutronium, tachyokinetic)
Post edited by vocmcp on
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Comments
Regarding the set, I would not bother with at least the BoP and Snare. You'll need all the enhanced RCS you can lay your hands on. Plasmonic Leach is fun, but in theory only needed for drain builds or those with power management issues. Warp Core with W->E should be your main aim, I don't believe one exists with W->E, SEP and AMP though, so sacrifices will be made.
4 DHCs, 4 turrets
TT1, CRF1
ET1, AtB1, EPtS3, DEM3
EPtE1, AtB1, RSP2
TSS1, HE2
TB1
4 mkXII RCS+allres
leach
5 tac consoles
its kind of like a fleet negvar, that trades 4 base turn for 2 tac consoles. to get a chance to use its cannons, this much has to be put into your maneuverability, and your tank ability. was using this before the mogh got released, didn't do too bad with it.
what patrickngo said is generally true though, it takes a master battlecruiser user to make this work at all. your build would break ineffectiveness records im afraid
.....If you haven't bought/built the bort yet you should consider the mogh. In general it is considered better than the bort in all areas.
I'm a tac captain but here is my experience with what you're trying to do.
.....The advice you've received to turn it into a FAW boat is correct. No Bort will be effective as a cannon boat in PVP no matter what you do with it or how many unique powers, console buff's, or other items you employ. Even in a FAW build the bort will struggle in PVP.
.....I fly a tactical bort with all cannons and turrets in ESTF's. In ESTF's you can build for maximum DPS output and ignore mobility and healing abilities almost completely. The bort does less DPS than a FAW all beam build. This is a consistent result and the DPS is significantly less than the beam build(s). Even the damage spikes are lower and less frequent with the DHC's than they are with the beam build.
.....While I applaud your determination to make this work, it won't. Especially not in PvP. Escorts are the DHC boats for a reason. They can keep the DHC's on target and heal themselves quite well. If it were possible to turn the Bort into a speedboat, which isn't, you would end up with a speed boat with zero survivability.
.....Since you took the time to spec it out I thought I'd make specific suggestions about the build. Please don't take them the wrong way.
.....The A2b build will get you the highest DPS avail from this boat. but I would prob give up the three slot universal Tac for another sci or Eng officer. The two slot tactical would take the CFI, CSVI, or FAW II.
.....The one dual beam up front seems out of place. I know you want to use it with the BO, but you're losing a slot for a second TT which you don't need because you're using an A2B.
.....Torpedos would be useless on the Bort except to make people pay for parking too close to your rear end. I would suggest the cutting beam combined with the assimilated console or another turret.
.....If you kept both tacs as they are, got rid of Omega and went with CRFII, CSVII, or FAW III, you could slot a Torp spread in the 2nd slot and make better use of the torps. Don't use HY because the projectiles are destructible and FAW/CSV spam will end them instanly.
.....The breen transphasic torp is a destructible projectile. Try an omega torp or one of the new photon ones from the dyson rep. But you may want to use one that can make use of Torp spread, unless you drop the extra tac officer in which case the torp would have to stand alone.
....Nothing will really make a huge difference in your turn rate. Rememebr that everything related to turn bonuses is based on a percentage of your base turn rate. So 29% of 5 is 1.45. Which is still well below the turn rate of other cruisers with similar weapon and Boff loadouts. It's half the turn rate of some of the crossfaction ships with silmilar loadouts.
.....Also, there is the inertia factor. Regardless of turn rate and speed your ship will continue to travel in it's original direction even as you turn. Thus the power slide was born, but that doesn't help you in PVP.
.....Since you're using cannons, If you replaced the elachi DBB with an Elachi heavy cannon up front and combine it with the bioneural infusion circuit you get a bonus to disruptor damage and shield systems. And the Bioneural console gives you a crit severity and structural integrity boost.
.....I'd probably drop the ensign universal eng and go for a sci. Try to pick up another healing power. I think you're going to spend a lot of time trying to survive.
.....On the same theme, I'd prob drop DEM for Aux2SIF III. but that would depend on your ability to keep it alive with the healing powers you have.
.....I assume all of your Boffs are nausican for the dmg bonus. Not sure if there is another choice avail to the KDF that would benefit you in PVP.
.....If you switched to AP weapons you could use the obelisk rift core an the AP Beam array whcih give you a 10% bonus to AP damage.
.....The plasmonic leech probably won't be of much use to you in PVP. Some of the folks that I know that PVP have stopped carrying it. As you noted, you have to give up a Eng console to use it. You'll prob want/need as many enhanced neutroniums as you can carry.
.....No and No. both are useless in PVP. The turn rate bonus is certainly not worth the slot by itself. The other benefits of the set bonus are debateable:
+12 projectile damage (useless on your build)
+12 targeting systems - A good bonus as accuracy is a key component in PVP.
+12 energy weapon specialization - Debatable, the skill tree gives diminishing returns from higher points in this skill. You can prob get more out of your fleet tac consoles and not give up a neutronium slot.
.....IMO, the only reason to buy the other ships would be if you wanted access to the other console layouts. One has 5 eng consoles instead of 5 tac. That might prove more useful in PVP. But I still don't recommend either of them for PVP.
.....No.
.....Cruisers will run circles around you and take little damage from you. When you do catch them up front, they won't be there long enough for you to do more damage than they can heal.
.....Escorts will park on your rear and wipe you out with a few volleys. It may take more than a few but there will be nothing that you can do to get them off your rear or get them in front of you.
.....The only enemy you'll be able to consistently hold under your guns will be carriers. They'll out tank you while their pets kill you with a thousand cuts. You won't be able to target and destroy their pets fast enough to get rid of them. And if you do, you'll find the carrier at full health and shields by the time you're done. And then the whole thing starts again. If it's a JHDC you'll be outgunned, outtanked, and it's bug pets will make mincemeat out of what's left. (If they're in PVP with a JHDC they have bug pets, you can count on it.)
A final note:
.....The bort is easily identified, not that tanky, and unable to run away from a fight. The entire enemy team will want a piece of you. So you'll frequenty find them ignoring your teamates and focus firng on you. Which makes you an even softer target.
.....Sorry I can't give you a more upbeat appraisal. Good luck with your build!
Here's more information about the pet Bop and the snare.
The BOP:
.....In PVP one FAW or SCV and it's dead. And since those are constantly running in PVP, you can imagine it's lifespan there. So you get 1 minute or less of minimal damage and a 4 minute CD.
.....In PVE the Hosus does little to no damage, almost always runs off and targets a gate by itself and is usually dead in a under a minute.
The snare:
.....Is absolutely useless in PVP as everyone you encounter has innate or on-demand escape powers that nullify the snare altogether or eliminate the hold associated with it after it moves them. That combined with the 4 min CD guarantees that your enemies will never be without the ability to counter it.
.....Is absolutely useless in PVE because you know where all of your targets will be at all times. Know where to position your ship and you never have to chase your targets.
.....There is the theory that using the snare and the autocannon together allows you to set up an alpha strike.
.....It doesn't.
.....The autocannon takes a second or so to begin firing, and it does it's damage over a series of pulses. As noted above, almost every PVP enemy you encounter will have the ability to nullify the snare or the hold afterwards. So the autocannon won't get a chance to fire, and if it does, there's a good possibility that one or more of the pulses will miss, or the target will be out of the firing arc before it's finished the firing cycle.
[redacted]
A2B with two eng's.
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=tggra2bbortcannons_4737
.....It would give you back the DEM that I recommended you swap for A2SIF. And give you a lot of flexibility in the eng dept to go with healing or dmg output. An EP2W instead of EP2E for example.
A2B with a sci in the univ LT com:
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=tggra2bscicannons_4737
.....I hear PVP'ers complain about the rifts and GWs because some of them don't skill to counter them.
.....I know the AP beam appears to be out of place in both of these, But in my parsing (with the AP array paired with the core) the AP array does as much or more damage than the addition turret would. And I like the Subspace rift core. The core gives you a free reusable shield battery along with it's passive buffs to aux power and subsystem repair.
.....If you can get it to work effectively everyone will want to know about it. So you shouldn't tell anybody but me.
.....Maybe you could test it on an actual bort on the tribble servers? I've never tried them.
TT1, FAWII
EptW1, RSP1, EPtS3, ES3
EPtS1, Aux2Sif1, EWP1
PH, HE2
TT1
There's something to be said for throwing an Extend Shields 3 on your teammate. I worked with a Scimi keeping it tac teamed, extended and helped it take out a entire team of fed puggers over the course of an Arena. Weak ones of course.
Haha I've removed above info
Hmmm can I just "buy" a Bort on tribble without spending anything on it or the items I'd need? Sorry I've never been to tribble...
.....As far as I know everything on the tribble server is free to use with some limitations on the ability to save stuff. But I've never used it myself and it changes with the updates so you'll have to see.
.....Maybe someone that's used tribble recently will chime in here.
What I can say from testing with my Gal-X in Ker'rat right now is that even a constant turn of 20 still doesn't make you perform well.
.....Since mobility is the big problem, you may want to consider the Aux to inertial dampeners build that smokeybacon90 mentioned early on. A2Damp gives you bonuses in turn rate, flight speed, kinetic resistance and more.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ability:_Auxiliary_to_Dampeners
.....Add matter anti-matter specialist Doff's and you get bonuses in energy damage resistance.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Specialization:_Matter-Antimatter_Specialist
I'll try that but the downside would be loosing the Warp Core Engineer that cleans debuff on use of emergency ability. At least the Bort's inertia is "only" 18 vs. the Gal's 25.
Other than that I think I'd be able to push the turnrate around a constant 25. Still testing on it. What abilities push the turnrate? Influences I know of so far are:
- Helmsmann trait
- Engine performance skill
- EptE, Aux2Damp, Evasive, APO, APA (if you're tac)
- Conn officer with evasive cooldown one. Combined with dual a2b & helmsmann... nice)
- Damage control eng. that reduces emergency ability (not needed due to dual a2b)
- Tachyo, assimilated impulse, RCS consoles (&fleet neutr)
Did I miss any consoles, boff traits, player traits, doffs, or boff abilities that would influence turnrate or inertia?
And on another note, what exactly is full impulse? When I put all power to impulse engines or if power is just 100 as stated here If it would just be 100 I'd be able to use that Warp Theorist with turnrate bonus
Edit: I'm testing the effect of the Conn & Warp theorist doff. Will update later on that.
It has absolutely nothing but drawbacks :
-Very low turn rate but still only 3 command arrays
-Extremely low inertia
-Lower shield mod for 0 reason
-Less total system power if you take the tact version (no a 5th console is not worth the loss of power).
-Enormous crew which takes a year to recover but gives 0 benefits.
-It can mimic a tor'kaht or k'tinga/negh boff layout but that's it
-It's big
So at best you can use the command one with a2b and beams (at least this one has an advantage which is the sensor scan), but dont expect anything serious from that ship.
PS : i played all the fleet battlecruisers in pvp (kerrat, queues, private matchs) for more than a year and think my opinion on the bortasqu' is valid.
fleet K'tinga. best turning battlecruiser
fleet Karmarag. Has LTC sci, which you can do very nice things with (especially with AtoB cooldown rate)
@rudiefix Feds: Rudiefix / Thron / Opa
@rudiefix KDFs: Lill / Xifeidur / Dehr / Ugly
@rudiefix Roms (KDF alligned): Chicita
On top of that, the Fleet K'Tinga has been beaten about the head and neck by Cryptic's BAD DECISIONS to give it less hull than a raptor, give it NO universal boff slots, and to overall nerf the hell out of it when it should be much closer to the karamag or torkhat.
The Fleet K'tinga is only for those that truly love the ship and put up with it's many many shortcomings.
For an alternative to the Bortasqu, go Fleet Negh, Fleet Tork (or mogh), of Fleet Karamag for Eng/Tac/Sci boff setups respectively.
Have you ever played the Ktinga?
Fleet Ktinga:
Turn 11
Inertia 35
Fleet Neghvar:
Turn 9
Inertia 25
Fleet Bortas:
Turn 5.5
Inertia 18
Fleet Karmarag:
Turn 10.5
Inertia 30
Fleet Tor'kaht:
Turn 10
Inertia 30
Fleet Mogh:
Turn 9
Inertia 50
Im currently using the Karmarag, after I used the Ktinga. Although base turn and inertia is only a bit lower, I certainly see the difference, especially when turn is buffed with EptE and the consoles.
The Tor'kaht is too tac-heavy to use with AtoB, Bortas and Neghvar turn way slower. The Mogh is the Battlecruiser2.0 because of its 5 front weapons.
I think the Ktinga is greatly underrated by many. It actually can have a great AtoB build, and tank better than many others with LTC engineer:
Front 4x antiproton DHC
back: omnibeam
BO1, CRF1
TT1
ET1, AtoB1, EptS3, DEM3
EptE1, AtoB1, RSP2
PH1, HE2
@rudiefix Feds: Rudiefix / Thron / Opa
@rudiefix KDFs: Lill / Xifeidur / Dehr / Ugly
@rudiefix Roms (KDF alligned): Chicita
.....Inertia gets worse as it gets lower. 18 inertia is worse than 25 inertia. My heavy BOP has an inertia of 60. The fleet Bops have an inertia of 80. The lighter, faster the ship, the higher the inertia rating.
.....As far as I know, nothing changes your inertia. Only turn rate and speed.
.....You've found everything that I'm aware of as far as turn or speed buffs. There are some skills that you didn't mention, but you probably already know about them.
.....Starship impulse thrusters boosts impulse speed and turn rate.
.....Warp core potential gives you a flat bonus to all power levels and is cheaper than engine performance.
.....Warp core efficiency gives a variable bonus to all power levels based on how low they are. If you're going to set engine power to 25 or more it does not provide any measurable benefit.
.....Driver coil only helps in sector space, not impulse. So don't put anything there.
.....Attack patterns improve the performance of APO if you keep it. If you don't use APO, I wouldn't invest much there.
.....Engine performance gives you a flat bonus to engine power. But the bonus gets smaller and smaller as you invest more points.
http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skill%20Point%20Effects.htm
.....Full impulse gives you more speed than the manual 100% setting. Each engine usually says in the specs what level of impulse speed you'll get from it.
.....Full impulse cannot be used during combat. You have to be out of combat for several seconds before you can apply full impulse.
.....Several powers drop you out of full impulse even if you aren't in combat. Brace for impact is one.
.....Full impulse slowly drains power from all other systems. If you remain in full impulse for more than a few seconds, your other power levels will drop to zero and they will have to recover once you drop out of full impulse. So going into combat from full impulse leaves you vulnerable for several seconds.
.....Higher turn boosts are helpful for overcoming your inertia but don't change it. your ship will continue to travel in it's original direction, but you'll be able to turn your weapons.
.....Higher engine power levels only help to a point. Most ships achieve their highest turn rate at 50% Engine power. But will accelerate faster in a straight line with full engine power.
.....Increased top speed does not help overcome inertia. Increased speed makes you turn wider. Imagine a fully loaded truck. At slow speeds (say in a parking lot) it can turn far more tightly than it would at highway speeds.
.....The previous two posters are right. there are better ships for carrying cannons. The mogh seems to top the list. Each has 8 weapons and 4 tac consoles but the mogh has 5 weapons up front. They have similar Boff and console layouts as well. Some of them would run and A2B or A2Damp build more easily than the others. Some give you more tactical power options allowing you to use CRF II instead of I.
.....The fifth tac console in the bort adds only a very small amount to your base damage and might be better spent on a universal console that boosts your crit chance or crit damage.
.....Go into system space (not sector space) and open up the available skills screen. The one that you drag your available abilities powers from onto your tray. Look at each weapon's damage output with the five tac consoles. (including their output using your best power CRF I) Then close the window, remove the 5th tac console, and reopen the window and look at the same items again.
.....You''ll see how much or little that 5th tac console benefits you. In the case of the mogh, 5 forward DHC's outperforms one additional tac console. (If you can get them on target.)
The version you have will have an awful turn rate, will be less effective in getting on target, will be overall slower to fly and adjust positioning and will also manage to be squishier than the Mogh or F-Vorcha.
Don't be lured in by 1 extra Tac console slot, it's nice, but it's also completely outweighed by every other drawback (and they are big drawbacks).
Even if you went with beams I would tell you to fly either of those two ships instead.
R.I.P
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
In PvP with a cannon bort you're a one trick-pony - every few minutes you get to unleash the decloak-alpha-of-doom with your autocannon and as many buffs as you've got, and if it fails you hope you get away before your hull bleeds out. That contributes nothing to the team, though. And if you try to join the team and fly like an oversized escort you become target #1 because the other side knows you can't get away, and you spend most of your time respawning.
I will say that whoever said that effective cannon build on this ship makes you a glass cannon was exaggerating - I have two enhanced neutronuim [+turn] consoles and one RCS +[HullHP] and I can turn fairly well and take the abuse. But I've also spec'd out all of my skills to take maximum advantage of the strengths of my build and mitigate my weaknesses.
But still, in a PvP match where turnrate rules the day it's like a T-rex in a pack of raptors. I'd look and feel ridiculous trying to keep up with my team. Occasionally taking a big bite out of a sci or stomping some unprepared tacsort is nice, but I can't match the damage output all my little friends are putting out.
And the simple fact is, that just about anything a Bortasqu' can do, a Tor'kaht or especially a Mogh can do better. Especially in team PvP, where time-on-target rules over raw firepower. You'd be hard-pressed to find a player who loves his Bortasqu' more than I love mine, but it's simply the wrong ship for PvP.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon