The idea that premades are ruining PVP is ****ing stupid.
Cryptic hasn't done **** for PVP. Since PWE took over it's only gotten worse.
....
Don't get me wrong, I would love a queue system that made us more easily hit these teams. I can't stand queuing with a full group. It's rare it's fun. I almost never do with a full group. Maybe 1 or 2 others. Even then there is QQ.
Never is anyone in this game happy with PVP. However it's not premades fault. It's Crytpic/PWE and the player base.
agreed there
I also am not a fan of people taking self preservation builds into Queues as the Op says, no TT for their team for example or 23 second RSP.
The queues are quiet because everyone is grining the voth rep
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Premades usually kill just about any PvP in any game twitch games too. That's just my 2 cents. What really kills PvP is the attitudes about 90% (yep I said it! ) of those who do. Nothing better then PvPing and watching chat being blown up with chest pounding and whining. Yes I could turn the chat off but not all are like that and it's nice to be able to comment to the ones that are not being jerks.
The part I find awesome is when people make their way to the boards and toss up some ideas or critic (granted a lot is baseless whining) they are usually treated poorly. Then everyone wonders why PvP is dying.
Premades usually kill just about any PvP in any game twitch games too. That's just my 2 cents. What really kills PvP is the attitudes about 90% (yep I said it! ) of those who do. Nothing better then PvPing and watching chat being blown up with chest pounding and whining. Yes I could turn the chat off but not all are like that and it's nice to be able to comment to the ones that are not being jerks.
The part I find awesome is when people make their way to the boards and toss up some ideas or critic (granted a lot is baseless whining) they are usually treated poorly. Then everyone wonders why PvP is dying.
So it has nothing to do with the attitudes of those that refuse to embrace teamwork? Really?
So it has nothing to do with the attitudes of those that refuse to embrace teamwork? Really?
Teamwork?! That's for big lady shirts!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
So it has nothing to do with the attitudes of those that refuse to embrace teamwork? Really?
If by embracing teamwork you mean getting your butt handed to you by people who run together and work together all the time against people randomly thrown together... Then no.
The ones that I have seen at least that don't deal in teamwork usually involves some chest thumper that has his own idea on how everything should be done. Which usually includes things being said as rude and as obnoxious as possible. Who wants to join in on a team with that? Really?
This is kinda what I was talking about in my post anyone that offers their opinion kinda gets a crappy or snarky response. Doesn't bother me much but it does others.
It's funny that all the Pandas jump all over these posts about splitting the queues into solo and team queues. And they are NEVER in favor of having to face only other organized teams. It's just one big echo chamber of them replying to each others posts.
One question for you Pandas and others premades. Can you articulate why you are against splitting the queues? Everyone else in here can see it is because you know you love pugstomping and don't want a REAL challenge. But go ahead and do your best to explain why you need to fight random teams in a premade (not splitting the queues into solo and team), why that element is absolutely crucial for PVP survival and expansion. Please do.
I am ALL for splitting the queues up. If large fleets want to team up and fight, then fine, they can team up and fight other premades instead of roflstomping their way through the queues.
I gave up arena for the same reason the OP did.
Losing over and over again 15-0 to premade/pugmade teams learns you NOTHING. All these "elite" PVPers in their big fleets saying "you need to learn to play"... thats a load of bollocks and they damn well know it, learn to do what exactly? Learn to survive getting hammered by 3 or 4 high DPS ships at the same time? Yeah, if I do that I become a zombie build, and guess what? THATS RIGHT! The same "Elite" PVPers who said "learn to play" then whine cause they cant kill you!
PMSL
Split the queues. If that happens I bet a lot of people who have been put off due to some large fleet's idea of fun (rofl stomping pug teams in queues) will come back, because of the simple fact that the days of the premades will be over and the playing field will be somewhat more level than the drastically skewed mess it is at the present moment.
"You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
Split the queues. If that happens I bet a lot of people who have been put off due to some large fleet's idea of fun (rofl stomping pug teams in queues) will come back, because of the simple fact that the days of the premades will be over and the playing field will be somewhat more level than the drastically skewed mess it is at the present moment.
I doubt you will get rid of it so easily. If the queues are separate for groups and solo/random players, the groups who were looking for easy victories over disorganized/inexperienced players will sync-join the solo queue as individual players and more often than not (depends on population of the queue) get the same situation as the current stomping premades.
It happened in other games, it would happen in STO too if this were implemented.
Avoiding the vile groups in PvP may be impossible (except by avoiding PvP altogether).
I am ALL for splitting the queues up. If large fleets want to team up and fight, then fine, they can team up and fight other premades instead of roflstomping their way through the queues.
I gave up arena for the same reason the OP did.
Losing over and over again 15-0 to premade/pugmade teams learns you NOTHING. All these "elite" PVPers in their big fleets saying "you need to learn to play"... thats a load of bollocks and they damn well know it, learn to do what exactly? Learn to survive getting hammered by 3 or 4 high DPS ships at the same time? Yeah, if I do that I become a zombie build, and guess what? THATS RIGHT! The same "Elite" PVPers who said "learn to play" then whine cause they cant kill you!
PMSL
Split the queues. If that happens I bet a lot of people who have been put off due to some large fleet's idea of fun (rofl stomping pug teams in queues) will come back, because of the simple fact that the days of the premades will be over and the playing field will be somewhat more level than the drastically skewed mess it is at the present moment.
No fleet worth it's salt will find pug-stomping fun. It's about as dull & pointless as being in the pug group as it as on a premade.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
I think the problem is Vegie never took the next evolutionary step in the PvP process, which is to find a solid group of people to play with on a regular basis. I think I even remember him mentioning that he hadn't teamed with others very often when we played in that tourney a few months back, and that he wasn't used to coordinating over team speak. This makes a world of difference and is the ultimate way to have fun in STO (premade vs. premade). I still pug because I like PvP, but it's just a supplement for when I can't get some premade vs. premade action going.
I think you might be very right about that there. I know some players have tremendous "luck" in the ques pugging. I define that type of "luck" as the more Chief then Indian mentality so to speak. A lot of those people are used to team coordination and even organizing the team they are on when they have no oraganization present. It is a sad defeciency in me I feel.
I also think your earlier bit about needing to bring a more well rounded build in it worth a try. I know your good, even on another level then I have achieved yet. But I am going to work a bit on the grind, then perhaps try my hand in TD to get a look at more coordination and team play skills before I consider pugging again.
Thanks for offering you insight into that. I really do appreciate it.
No you miss read my statements, I inteded to state that I enjoyed those types of matches. Reall was a lot of fun knowing that since obviously I did not win, I still stood an equal chance of winning. I find that an enjoyable Defeat. But please even look I was the worst person in the lobby too, and from that I am not ashamed. The way I see that kind of score, is that the last place runner in the Olympics is by no means slow.
I think you might be very right about that there. I know some players have tremendous "luck" in the ques pugging. I define that type of "luck" as the more Chief then Indian mentality so to speak. A lot of those people are used to team coordination and even organizing the team they are on when they have no oraganization present. It is a sad defeciency in me I feel.
I also think your earlier bit about needing to bring a more well rounded build in it worth a try. I know your good, even on another level then I have achieved yet. But I am going to work a bit on the grind, then perhaps try my hand in TD to get a look at more coordination and team play skills before I consider pugging again.
Thanks for offering you insight into that. I really do appreciate it.
I did? I didn't say anything like "noob" "nub" "suck" "terrible" "learn to play" or anything offensive like that. Look at this:
"Chances are that it's actually you dragging your team down"
"Even if I give you a liberal estimate that every fifth match is an inevitable loss against a premade -- which is a stretch in itself -- you're still losing 70% of your matches. The only way to rack up that kind of loss percentage over an appreciable time is by being significantly worse than average."
Calling someone worse than average? That's very mellow compared to saying "You just suck at the game then." Not to mention, he can come out at any time and admit that he was untruthful about his claims of losing 90% of matches due to premades. I'm sure I could have somehow been even more polite about it, but I went out of my way as it is to call him out on his BS in the least offensive way possible.
People are free to delude themselves and make excuses for their performance as much as they want, but when someone makes a thread about it on a public forum and opens himself up to criticism he can expect at least one person who doesn't share that behavioural flaw to call him on it.
The devs will remove this and ban will ensue JORF you arrogant little whiny *****. Your a pompous TRIBBLE. Who hasnt pugged a day in your worthless life anyone can win a high percentage of pug matches if he only has played 3 his whole life. Can someone besides one of his panda TRIBBLE tell me when they have ever seen jorf pug get real. ive noticed pandas **** the poor pugs now with 3 panda fleet tags and 2 panda alt accounts to make them look clean. So heres a **** you jorf keep your arrogance and your snide comments to yourself. Welcome to the panda troll fest witch is the sto forums veggie. Good luck getting a moderator to regulate your posts from these trolls they are all panda ball lickers also. So as long as you dont say something bad about a panda you can do whatever the hell you want on here.
Good luck getting a moderator to regulate your posts from these trolls they are all panda ball lickers also. So as long as you dont say something bad about a panda you can do whatever the hell you want on here.
Ok, I admit it, the moderators are all in our pocket. Cryptic studios is actually just a front for the Panda fleet and we control development from the shadows :P
Or, if you want to know why you get banned so often you could, well you know, reread your post and put two and two together.
No you miss read my statements, I inteded to state that I enjoyed those types of matches. Reall was a lot of fun knowing that since obviously I did not win, I still stood an equal chance of winning. I find that an enjoyable Defeat. But please even look I was the worst person in the lobby too, and from that I am not ashamed. The way I see that kind of score, is that the last place runner in the Olympics is by no means slow.
If I mistook what you wrote, I apologize.
I posted two matches from the same night. I personally thought they were fun. The point of TD isn't to min/max. It's about having fun.
The devs will remove this and ban will ensue JORF you arrogant little whiny *****. Your a pompous TRIBBLE. Who hasnt pugged a day in your worthless life anyone can win a high percentage of pug matches if he only has played 3 his whole life. Can someone besides one of his panda TRIBBLE tell me when they have ever seen jorf pug get real. ive noticed pandas **** the poor pugs now with 3 panda fleet tags and 2 panda alt accounts to make them look clean. So heres a **** you jorf keep your arrogance and your snide comments to yourself. Welcome to the panda troll fest witch is the sto forums veggie. Good luck getting a moderator to regulate your posts from these trolls they are all panda ball lickers also. So as long as you dont say something bad about a panda you can do whatever the hell you want on here.
Ran into Jorf many of times while he was pugging in 2010/11.
Not calling people ****s helps you not get banned. If you can't see that, well that is something your parents should have taught you.
The devs will remove this and ban will ensue JORF you arrogant little whiny *****. Your a pompous TRIBBLE. Who hasnt pugged a day in your worthless life anyone can win a high percentage of pug matches if he only has played 3 his whole life. Can someone besides one of his panda TRIBBLE tell me when they have ever seen jorf pug get real. ive noticed pandas **** the poor pugs now with 3 panda fleet tags and 2 panda alt accounts to make them look clean. So heres a **** you jorf keep your arrogance and your snide comments to yourself. Welcome to the panda troll fest witch is the sto forums veggie. Good luck getting a moderator to regulate your posts from these trolls they are all panda ball lickers also. So as long as you dont say something bad about a panda you can do whatever the hell you want on here.
I can feel your anger. Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, suffering... leads to fictional gaming conspiracy theories.
*Speed-Dials Alecto*
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
It is 100% predictable that PvP is completely one sided when you gave a premade. I challenge PvP premades to post 3 vids where you have a premade vs skilled pug and it is actually competitive. Premades are ruining what's left of a PvP in this game and need to go.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Yes, the screenshots are rather old. I primarily made screenshots of premade vs premade games, and for some of the (semi-)pug vs premade screenshots that I have I don't have a screenshot of the social tab, so I'm not always certain if it were pure pugs or if the premade maybe was only a 4+1. But in the cases above you see pugs beating full teams.
It is 100% predictable that PvP is completely one sided when you gave a premade. I challenge PvP premades to post 3 vids where you have a premade vs skilled pug and it is actually competitive. Premades are ruining what's left of a PvP in this game and need to go.
It's not that black and white. A skilled pug CAN beat a premade, as a matter of fact that happens more often than one might think. One of the reason I tend to pug often, beating a premade with a pug or at least give them a run for their money can be super-sweet.
However if it's a super strong premade then pulling off a victory will be very difficult, if not impossible even. But there is really only a very tiny number of premades that I would put into that category. Understand that there is a skill disparity even between premades.
Having said that, it is my (subjective) observation that a pug winning against premades has become more difficult as of late. A side effect of power creep I guess.
PS: A Pugmade (which is something slightly different to a pure pug) comprised of veteran PVP'ers can beat premades any day of the week.
It is 100% predictable that PvP is completely one sided when you gave a premade. I challenge PvP premades to post 3 vids where you have a premade vs skilled pug and it is actually competitive. Premades are ruining what's left of a PvP in this game and need to go.
^^^
That's just not true. I've been a part of both PUGs and Fleet Premades over the last few months and it's not a forgone conclusion that any PUG VS a Premade will end in a rout for the PUG. If your PUG is a group of good PvP players, that know how to focus fire and cross heal, they stand a good chance of staying competitive or winning the match by the end.
If a PUG is just a bunch of single-minded players who just spam the spacebar at the first player they see; and don't attempt to coordinate anything in any way <--- Yes, it'll probably end badly for them. (Welcome to MMO PvP.)
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
^^^
That's just not true. I've been a part of both PUGs and Fleet Premades over the last few months and it's not a forgone conclusion that any PUG VS a Premade will end in a rout for the PUG. If your PUG is a group of good PvP players, that know how to focus fire and cross heal, they stand a good chance of staying competitive or winning the match by the end.
If a PUG is just a bunch of single-minded players who just spam the spacebar at the first player they see; and don't attempt to coordinate anything in any way <--- Yes, it'll probably end badly for them. (Welcome to MMO PvP.)
Excellent post.
It's not popular to go against the grain on this issue, but I always appreciate it when I see it.
ive been on plenty of teams that beat premades. all thats required is the players on your team arent feeder tier, and will follow some pretty basic target directions, and you will always have a shot.
ive been on plenty of teams that beat premades. all thats required is the players on your team arent feeder tier, and will follow some pretty basic target directions, and you will always have a shot.
Comments
agreed there
I also am not a fan of people taking self preservation builds into Queues as the Op says, no TT for their team for example or 23 second RSP.
The queues are quiet because everyone is grining the voth rep
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
The part I find awesome is when people make their way to the boards and toss up some ideas or critic (granted a lot is baseless whining) they are usually treated poorly. Then everyone wonders why PvP is dying.
So it has nothing to do with the attitudes of those that refuse to embrace teamwork? Really?
Teamwork?! That's for big lady shirts!
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
If by embracing teamwork you mean getting your butt handed to you by people who run together and work together all the time against people randomly thrown together... Then no.
The ones that I have seen at least that don't deal in teamwork usually involves some chest thumper that has his own idea on how everything should be done. Which usually includes things being said as rude and as obnoxious as possible. Who wants to join in on a team with that? Really?
This is kinda what I was talking about in my post anyone that offers their opinion kinda gets a crappy or snarky response. Doesn't bother me much but it does others.
One question for you Pandas and others premades. Can you articulate why you are against splitting the queues? Everyone else in here can see it is because you know you love pugstomping and don't want a REAL challenge. But go ahead and do your best to explain why you need to fight random teams in a premade (not splitting the queues into solo and team), why that element is absolutely crucial for PVP survival and expansion. Please do.
I gave up arena for the same reason the OP did.
Losing over and over again 15-0 to premade/pugmade teams learns you NOTHING. All these "elite" PVPers in their big fleets saying "you need to learn to play"... thats a load of bollocks and they damn well know it, learn to do what exactly? Learn to survive getting hammered by 3 or 4 high DPS ships at the same time? Yeah, if I do that I become a zombie build, and guess what? THATS RIGHT! The same "Elite" PVPers who said "learn to play" then whine cause they cant kill you!
PMSL
Split the queues. If that happens I bet a lot of people who have been put off due to some large fleet's idea of fun (rofl stomping pug teams in queues) will come back, because of the simple fact that the days of the premades will be over and the playing field will be somewhat more level than the drastically skewed mess it is at the present moment.
It happened in other games, it would happen in STO too if this were implemented.
Avoiding the vile groups in PvP may be impossible (except by avoiding PvP altogether).
No fleet worth it's salt will find pug-stomping fun. It's about as dull & pointless as being in the pug group as it as on a premade.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
This ^
Quote from a member of our fleet in TS the other night: "Can we please just get this over with quick, this isnt even fun"
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I think you might be very right about that there. I know some players have tremendous "luck" in the ques pugging. I define that type of "luck" as the more Chief then Indian mentality so to speak. A lot of those people are used to team coordination and even organizing the team they are on when they have no oraganization present. It is a sad defeciency in me I feel.
I also think your earlier bit about needing to bring a more well rounded build in it worth a try. I know your good, even on another level then I have achieved yet. But I am going to work a bit on the grind, then perhaps try my hand in TD to get a look at more coordination and team play skills before I consider pugging again.
Thanks for offering you insight into that. I really do appreciate it.
No you miss read my statements, I inteded to state that I enjoyed those types of matches. Reall was a lot of fun knowing that since obviously I did not win, I still stood an equal chance of winning. I find that an enjoyable Defeat. But please even look I was the worst person in the lobby too, and from that I am not ashamed. The way I see that kind of score, is that the last place runner in the Olympics is by no means slow.
Yippy skippy! ^_^
Chillax. No Ego. No Drama.
Like my alien? Watch THE VIDEO
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The devs will remove this and ban will ensue JORF you arrogant little whiny *****. Your a pompous TRIBBLE. Who hasnt pugged a day in your worthless life anyone can win a high percentage of pug matches if he only has played 3 his whole life. Can someone besides one of his panda TRIBBLE tell me when they have ever seen jorf pug get real. ive noticed pandas **** the poor pugs now with 3 panda fleet tags and 2 panda alt accounts to make them look clean. So heres a **** you jorf keep your arrogance and your snide comments to yourself. Welcome to the panda troll fest witch is the sto forums veggie. Good luck getting a moderator to regulate your posts from these trolls they are all panda ball lickers also. So as long as you dont say something bad about a panda you can do whatever the hell you want on here.
Ok, I admit it, the moderators are all in our pocket. Cryptic studios is actually just a front for the Panda fleet and we control development from the shadows :P
Or, if you want to know why you get banned so often you could, well you know, reread your post and put two and two together.
If I mistook what you wrote, I apologize.
I posted two matches from the same night. I personally thought they were fun. The point of TD isn't to min/max. It's about having fun.
cheers!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Ran into Jorf many of times while he was pugging in 2010/11.
Not calling people ****s helps you not get banned. If you can't see that, well that is something your parents should have taught you.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I said someone besides a pandas *****.
Lol. Sounds like you cannot read.
If you get banned, you can blame yourself.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Jorf pugging (iirc he came in late as a replacement for the player who dropped out)
and
Jorf in a team (fighting a team which had a T3 golfball)
I was Four in the second match haha
Good old days
I can feel your anger. Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, suffering... leads to fictional gaming conspiracy theories.
*Speed-Dials Alecto*
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
- Judge Aaron Satie
But here are some screenshots I found of pugs beating full fleet teams:
Pug vs 528th (Players - note: there were two Wizards in the pug)
Pug vs FSI (Players)
Lol, Jorf got farmed 10 times :P
It's not that black and white. A skilled pug CAN beat a premade, as a matter of fact that happens more often than one might think. One of the reason I tend to pug often, beating a premade with a pug or at least give them a run for their money can be super-sweet.
However if it's a super strong premade then pulling off a victory will be very difficult, if not impossible even. But there is really only a very tiny number of premades that I would put into that category. Understand that there is a skill disparity even between premades.
Having said that, it is my (subjective) observation that a pug winning against premades has become more difficult as of late. A side effect of power creep I guess.
PS: A Pugmade (which is something slightly different to a pure pug) comprised of veteran PVP'ers can beat premades any day of the week.
That's just not true. I've been a part of both PUGs and Fleet Premades over the last few months and it's not a forgone conclusion that any PUG VS a Premade will end in a rout for the PUG. If your PUG is a group of good PvP players, that know how to focus fire and cross heal, they stand a good chance of staying competitive or winning the match by the end.
If a PUG is just a bunch of single-minded players who just spam the spacebar at the first player they see; and don't attempt to coordinate anything in any way <--- Yes, it'll probably end badly for them. (Welcome to MMO PvP.)
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Excellent post.
It's not popular to go against the grain on this issue, but I always appreciate it when I see it.