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Quiting the Ques... :(
vegie0
Member Posts: 480 Arc User
I am quitting the ques... simple as that. I don't believe I am improving there. There are never any teams forming in OPvP or Tyler Durden. Pugging is there for my only option. Pugging is of course fail.
The final reason for my decision is as follows:
Nobody likes loosing, and Everybody hates loosing repeatedly to Pugmades/Premades.
Nobody likes when people spam fireworks to Taunt. (Far more common in the ques)
Without any reason given to me at all asside form 1k dil every 3 days... Why do it?
Since Pugging 90% of the time leads to defeat... Why do it?
You do not learn anything about teamwork in a pug match.
The above made it less then fun for me to play. Since it is no longer fun, I will not do it. I will still try to join any balanced games I can, or play in Ker'rat. But I feel that the Ques are more about having a team and stomping, or not having a team and loosing terribly.
One day PvP will get some attention and Pugging will become viable. Unfortunately that day was promised to us several years ago...
The final reason for my decision is as follows:
Nobody likes loosing, and Everybody hates loosing repeatedly to Pugmades/Premades.
Nobody likes when people spam fireworks to Taunt. (Far more common in the ques)
Without any reason given to me at all asside form 1k dil every 3 days... Why do it?
Since Pugging 90% of the time leads to defeat... Why do it?
You do not learn anything about teamwork in a pug match.
The above made it less then fun for me to play. Since it is no longer fun, I will not do it. I will still try to join any balanced games I can, or play in Ker'rat. But I feel that the Ques are more about having a team and stomping, or not having a team and loosing terribly.
One day PvP will get some attention and Pugging will become viable. Unfortunately that day was promised to us several years ago...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by vegie0 on
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--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
I am afraid im not a fan of Ground PvP. Just not something I enjoy. Thanks thou.
That's odd, I win somewhere between 80-85% of matches when I pug. There are better players than me (MT comes to mind) who probably have something like a 95%+ chance to win any given match. To carry a team you either need to deal massive damage to the enemy, or give massive cross healing (including clears) to your team mates -- I prefer a mixture of both (leaning towards healing) so I'm not completely reliant on my pugs for either. Teamwork is huge! It's unlikely that your pug team mates will synergize with what you are doing, but you can still play off of them. For example, if you're playing a sci figure out who has the most spike damage on your team and align your nuke and scan to his alpha. /Target call out keybinds are of course a Godsend.
If you're really losing 90% of your matches and that's not just an exaggeration, chances are that it's actually you dragging your team down. Blaming premades is a convenient excuse, but the fact is that the vast majority of matches are pug vs. pug. If you're particularly unlucky you might run into a premade every one in five matches. And no, three or more guys from the same PvE fleet aren't a real premade, not even close. Even if I give you a liberal estimate that every fifth match is an inevitable loss against a premade -- which is a stretch in itself -- you're still losing 70% of your matches. The only way to rack up that kind of loss percentage over an appreciable time is by being significantly worse than average.
You can learn plenty from pug matches, but first you need to accept reality and strive to improve. My advice is to give the Jorf guide a read and see if anything resonates. Good luck!
To your winning 90% of pug matches.. just no. I am afraid that the Ques offer nothing. Despite what you say, what will I learn from being stomped by a Pugmade/Premade. Lets be honest, there are more now then I have ever seen. And please don't jump on the I am dragging my team down. I expected that atleast one person would jump in with "get better". But please your a panda. More into the fact of Pugmades, they are often clearly identified by active use of cross healing and callers. They are also very efficient at clearing SNB. Seeing as I actally have never played against or with you to my recolection, I am betting we play at different times. Sorry but I do not need to become a god at this game to enjoy PvP. I do very well for myself, but loosing because my team does not use Tactical Team... is somewhat less then fun. It's a game and I have no interest in playing the aspects I find less then fun.
In that case you're going to see any pure pug with a single competent sci healer as a pugmade. It's a comfortable excuse for why you lost, but you're seeing demons in the shadows where most of the time none exist. If there were so many competent pugmades running about I wouldn't be able to attain anywhere close to the win percentage that I have, carrying a team by oneself would be close to impossible for the likes of me.
I'm not a God at this game, and I enjoy PvP. In order to attain a 50% win percentage, you just need to be a bit above average to offset the occasional loss to a premade. Approaching the game with the wrong (your) attitude leads to less fun, and stunts any and all ability to for self improvement.
Ah I see, you're always saddled with crappy team mates. You aren't doing anything wrong at all.
I don't run tactical team on my sci either, I guess that makes me crappy too. Damn.
Your not trolling me here. Seriously... But once again, your full of it. Stop.
Seriously, all the attempts by you to say the problem is with me is getting old. I simply expressed my displeasure with the PvP Que system.
Now for some stats: In a loosly made team from OPvP (when these still happened for me) I had an average of ~75% wins vs losses. This was us simply asking for 1 sci, 1 healer, 2 dps, and anybody....
Now for fed pugging, usually the game ends 15-0 with the opposing team carrying 1 or more SNBs and they hit in sequence to remove my Sci team once I have become a Threat. Most times I am the only player on my team to secure kills, and easily take the leaderboards in both Damage and Healing for my team.
Now for Klink pugging, (since they Klink population PvPs more) My average pugging is closer to the 90% margine you claim. Simply put we stomp feds regularly. Unless we hit a VERY well organized fleet, we stomp 15-0. Even then I am either first in score, damage, and healing. Or I am second, perhaps third, or last if my team had a lot of DPS heavy ships with good pilots.
The problem here is that you seem to believe that everybody looses because they are lacking something. Yet your opinion is not only unwanted, it is counter productive. This is not a QQ thread about how OP Klinks, Feds, TBR, RSP, or any of the other commonly associated QQ topics. This is a thread outlining my reasons for no longer participating in one aspect of PvP. Now, go away. Your not helping, so if you know that... And I know that... then your trying to irritate me with the intent of ammusing yourself. (Trolling)
I quit that aspect of PvP, it no longer interests me. Nor do I benefit from it.
Thanks....
I've always learned more from losing than winning...
I don't like the lag - I don't like that folks exploit it detect stealthed vessels...otherwise, meh...
It's fun?
I've got no idea how many wins/losses there have been...it's not a tournament. It's pew pew fun, somebody's got to win - somebody's got to lose.
Hrmmm, you can be a team player where you're the only team player on the team...you're still learning to support your team. Heck, you can actually pick up on things so that you do them without the need for verbal or written communication. You gel...
Then when the other guys get on, its 3-4 man fleetmades in the queues. Usually win, against other fleetmades it goes 50-50 and some we just cant crack yet.
Then our five man team usually wins all of our fights except versus some of the aforementioned teams.
At the end of the day, I win more than I lose, BUT, I do find some pretty hefty competition in there.
I... used to see the queue system as an issue, but lately it hasnt seemed so bad.
Also as a note to self: My scimitar is not allowed to queue with the fleet anymore, my rule. >_> Just no.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
If you go into a game and beat them 15-0, then you've lost. If you go into a game and they beat you 15-0 then you lose. Either way you lose.
If you go into a game and for the majority of the match be unsure who is going to win, then you've won regardless. PvP's not about that anymore, if you get a good even game with lots of uncertainties & twisty turning then you enjoy it no matter the final result - those times might be rare but that just makes them all the sweeter in my book.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
For the ones that don't, you pick from them so the cycle can start again.
Or least that is what I see in this culture after just a few months playing PVP. It's tribal knowledge from what I can tell.
I think KDF vs Fed is playing with the odds in your favor. Fed vs Fed however, pugs are at a disadvantage. Too many people group up together in Pugmades, just ruins that aspect for me. I am no stranger to loosing, but I do not wish to loose constantly. And if I pick up with a team, we probably end up on TS, then we win 15-0 until we run into a true premade. Just I do not see what I could gain from it anymore. Winning is fun, loosing is heartbreaking, I can relegate myself to Ker'rat and get just as much PvP with Loots.
I just see it as no longer being enjoyable for me. If they made a true Pug only Que I think there would be a lot of fun there. Everytime I have competed in a Tyler Durden event there is never a shutout. Its always atleast 8 kills on the loosing team. Not due to the fact that the Winning team is letting them have it, but the skill gap is much smaller.
I view PvP, as a skill/gear/ship competition. Your team is putting your Skill against thier skill, if one is better they have the advantage. I even feel that this could be Quantified. When your team lacks greatly then you loose. Pugs vs Pugmade (Group of people that teamed up, not neccisarily from the same fleet) clearly shows this in my opinion.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I highly treasured the 15-14 games I have been in. They were just hard fought. But I agree 15-0 winning is just aweful. Usually in that case only two of the players present are truly required for a win. But then there is the 15-0 stomps... they are just demoralizing, and it seems to be such a simple thing to make it force pugs. Thus lowering the chances of such a battle greatly. I hate to say it, but a pug only Que I feel would enchance my own ability to play, without running into the 15-0 demoralizing games neerly as often.
This ^^
That is why I have loved pugging ever since I started playing this game, it's almost always a struggle. Win or lose, the struggle is really the funnest part.
A while back our fleet started getting into space pvp(we are a lolground pvp fleet primarily) and we got pretty good. As we got more and more competent going against pugs became a near constant 15-0 blowout affair. For a player that enjoys the struggle, this is not fun. The only time I genuinely enjoy being on a premade anymore is when going against other premades that are good. These games are truly the most fun I've had in the game though. We had edge of your seat games against TRIBBLE., Turkish RP Heroes, etc that lasted a good 40+ min.
Those are the games I will remember more then any pug game. Sadly a lot of our veteran players are gone, but fun times were had as a fleet because we really sought out good competition to face. Even if we thought going in that we were going to lose. That is what I see lacking in so many premades nowadays. They aren't really looking for competition it seems(every time I see the same premades facerolling pugs daily makes me :rolleyes:), and the queues are hurting as a result.
I agree with your statment. This is my personal reason for not playing in the Ques anymore. I just do not enjoy being Facerolled by Premades or Pugmades because they are bored. It doesn't teach me anything, other then how to say "GG" to a group that just womped us 15-0. Even when you bring the issue up, like "Mismatch GG" they will respond with "QQ moar" and "Get Friends11!!!1!". There is no sport in the Ques anymore. When I first switched from Ker'rat to the Ques, if you were outnumbered members of the opposing team (if Premade) would offer to 1v1 or have one of themselves sit out. 15-0 was not favorable then, and seemed to be avoided. I even remember teams that would win 15-0 saying "Thanks for staying" since they knew that leaving was very common in those situations. Ironically I learn more about tactics and builds from players in Ker'rat then the Ques. Seems the two switched roles, where the numbers there make far less of a difference and the tide of Ker'rat is often fueled by Karma.
Once upon a time, Premade teams would go into the Ques the moment they heard another Premade/Pugmade was in there. Just to try and find them, and root them out. I even remember discussions in OPvP about people wanting to know who the Premade was and when they last fought so they could increase the chances of finding them. The days of the past are gone now, and it almost feels like the memories of childhood fading into the distance. And like those childhood memories, you try to hold on to them, but once they are gone they seem to loose that luster they once had.
Second, you gotta take the bull by the horns. Right now I'm liking taking my Pallisade into the queues with a good balance of cc, damage, and healing. But I don't just fly around willy-nilly throwing gravity wells or w/e. First thing I do is size up my team and I set an assist keybind to who I think will be our main tac damage dealer ( /bind 1 assist Bob ). Then I will make target calls based off of who he is targeting and time my scans and subnukes up with his alpha strikes. I'm using a few holds, but I don't just throw them out randomly. For that, I wait till I see the person who Bob is targeting (and who I am target calling in chat) to go off of APO and/or EPtE and then I'll throw my holds. When I subnuke I have a keybind that tells everyone in chat who I have nuked so they know to get his TRIBBLE asap.
In the end, I find my experience contrary to your statement about pugging not improving your teamwork skills. In a premade everyone knows what they're doing and I am relegated to my specific role (for instance I don't target call in my sci and I don't have to watch for when my team mates' alphas are up because they will announce it). In a pug I have to pay a lot closer attention to my team mates, take the role of a general, as well as adjusting my play-style to what they are doing. This takes a lot of team work on my part (usually more-so than when I'm in a premade).
Basically, you have to make up for the lack of team work in a pug by going all out in the team work department yourself. Say you notice someone doesn't have a tac team. Try saving your own to send to them instead of using it always on yourself and of course don't bind it to space bar. I'm not running tac team right now, but I can't even begin to count how many pugs I've saved in the past just by sending them tac team.
@DevolvedOne
If as you say he's above average, then he isn't being truthful about losing 90% of his matches.
Did you miss my qualifying statement (italics for emphasis) "If you're really losing 90% of your matches and that's not just an exaggeration"?
He's either a decent player who is lying, or he is actually sinking the teams he is on. These are mutually exclusive options. One or the other.
@DevolvedOne
"Chances are that it's actually you dragging your team down"
"Even if I give you a liberal estimate that every fifth match is an inevitable loss against a premade -- which is a stretch in itself -- you're still losing 70% of your matches. The only way to rack up that kind of loss percentage over an appreciable time is by being significantly worse than average."
Calling someone worse than average? That's very mellow compared to saying "You just suck at the game then." Not to mention, he can come out at any time and admit that he was untruthful about his claims of losing 90% of matches due to premades. I'm sure I could have somehow been even more polite about it, but I went out of my way as it is to call him out on his BS in the least offensive way possible.
People are free to delude themselves and make excuses for their performance as much as they want, but when someone makes a thread about it on a public forum and opens himself up to criticism he can expect at least one person who doesn't share that behavioural flaw to call him on it.
Third match was a joke, a fleet team using anything cheesy or stupid, the black ball of death in multiples, TIF, scramble with DOffs, you name it they had it. Pathetic, utterly pathetic, 15-0 pug stomp that wasnt even fun.
Fourth match, pretty much the same team. I left at the start, no interest.
Fifth match, 2 high end fleets combined, same as above just no black balls of death.
Sixth match, you guessed it, another cheese filled team with scramble DOffs etc.
We lost 15-9, not a bad result but it wasnt a mega fun match due to the nature of how most of these fleet teams are playing whilst in the queues.
It wasnt even teamwork that won the day, it was crutches and spam that did. All the stuff all these fleets ditch for table matches, all the stuff that everyone on here disagrees with, yet it all gets used in multiples in the queues.
So that was 100% loss streak (2 Im not bothered with as they were so close it was unreal). That pretty much sums up every night in PvP at the moment.
I don't want to get in an argument over this with you (too late?), but just thought I'd point it out. You're free think your response was validated by his exaggeration, but I'm free to think otherwise, and as you say, it's a public forum and when you post you open yourself up to criticism.
I think the problem is Vegie never took the next evolutionary step in the PvP process, which is to find a solid group of people to play with on a regular basis. I think I even remember him mentioning that he hadn't teamed with others very often when we played in that tourney a few months back, and that he wasn't used to coordinating over team speak. This makes a world of difference and is the ultimate way to have fun in STO (premade vs. premade). I still pug because I like PvP, but it's just a supplement for when I can't get some premade vs. premade action going.
@DevolvedOne
Maybe people are practicing for the no-rules iPvP tourney?
@DevolvedOne
So having well fought matches is EVIL??? That is the point of TD after all.
Here is two TD matches you were in.
http://imgur.com/L6nZjP8,RglEHEl
^^^ EVIL!~
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Wouldnt mind losing with that sort of close score, unless it was as the experience some of us are having at the moment, basically full of crutches and cheese.
Not recognizing the names on blue team but I do recognize some of red team, Im pretty sure they arent that cheesy or using junk like scrammble with DOffs.
If people want to practice for no rules PvP, maybe they should take it private for more of a challenge, rather than cheesing up the queues to stomp pugs and basically removing as much fun from the match as possible.
There are two matches. Both your "Tyler Durden" matches.
The goal is always, fun even matches and mostly it does that. It's been quiet lately though.
Cheers!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
mt
For some odd reason a lot of premades are against the idea of splitting the queues into only two queues
- Premade/teams queue
- Solo/random queue
One would guess if premades wanted a challenge they would be all for this. Odd.
You imply all premades are the same.
Is 2 people from a fleet a premade?
Is 3?
Are all premades equal?
Are non-fleet groups, perhaps not premades?
The idea that premades are ruining PVP is ****ing stupid.
Cryptic hasn't done **** for PVP. Since PWE took over it's only gotten worse.
....
Don't get me wrong, I would love a queue system that made us more easily hit these teams. I can't stand queuing with a full group. It's rare it's fun. I almost never do with a full group. Maybe 1 or 2 others. Even then there is QQ.
Never is anyone in this game happy with PVP. However it's not premades fault. It's Crytpic/PWE and the player base.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]