Cap? No. Diminishing returns, most certainly. Over-abundance of CritH combined with poorly thought out "on critical hit" rep bonuses have borderline broke the game.
Because once again, people were asking to ruin pve for the sake of pvp.
Ruin PvE by making it a little bit more difficult for you to face roll through it? If anything, unrelenting power creep with no increase in PvE difficulty is ruining PvE.
@VD: Yes, there appears to be some sort of proc limiter on Proton damage from the protonic polaron weapons. Minimax was testing them out the other day on his max crit chance rom, and found that they procced far more infrequently than statistics would suggest.
Yes, I believe I was the one he was shooting at in that test (presuming he hasn't done another test). We also found out that the proc itself cannot crit, or at least we weren't lucky enough to happen to see it crit.
Hrmmm, that would definitely be interesting info to have...how that's actually limited. Thanks for the replies there...
edit: Suppose the next time I get one, I can test it against one of my guys to see..heh.
Because once again, people were asking to ruin pve for the sake of pvp. This does not belong in the pvp section, since it affects the 99% of the game's players who only play pve.
they could remove crits and most pve'ers wouldn't even notice it. the only thing that would ruin pve is if there were to many crits, not to little, as if it wasn't already a trivial enough exercise to space bar an npc to death.
my romulan's already at over 20% crit base, without counting any weapons mods, skill tree, and no spire tactical consoles. in your opinion, how much crit is enough? how much is to much?
Answer: It discusses gameplay mechanics which has its own sub forum.
On topic though, I can also think of a rather nice suppression build involving Voth antiproton weapons, with a crit rate that high you should see a lot of procs in a short amount of time. I would think you could get a good -50% damage going on the enemy no?
However capping critical hit chance would reduce their effectiveness quite a lot. You also have to remember not everyone will be able to get or use all this critical hit increasing stuff, believe it or not a lot of players are quite poor in terms of ec and don't spend a lot of money on this game.
I'd be less pessimistic if this was the only wrong thing you found out about the game mechanics.
Meh, it's just information. It's stuff that lets us make better informed decisions about our builds. It's stuff that let's us communicate better to the Devs why PvE content might be getting finished faster than they intended or why folks in PvP might be having such a hard time.
For the decisions thing, it's like what I'm discussing over in the Auto Targeting Module thread...
Consider the following:
You want to buy six Polarized Disruptor Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2. To buy the cheapest six currently listed on the Exchange, you're going to shell out 27,374,000 EC for them.
Say you opted to go with [CrtD][CrtH] instead? 5,613,999 EC for the six cheapest on the Exchange - that's total. Why? I'll explain in a moment.
First though, let's say you also wanted four Disruptor Induction Coil Mk XII. The cheapest four on the Exchange are going to set you back 120,498,000 EC.
So combined, those six [Acc]x2 Arrays and four Mk XII Coils are going to bleed your wallet for 147,872,000 EC. Yeah, I had to go for a smoke after reading that number.
Okay then, what was the 5.6m number for then? What good are the [CrtD][CrtH] if you want [Acc]x2?
A Nukara Particle Converter which provides +10% Accuracy for Beams (as well as +5 Shield Power, +17.3 Power Insulators, & +17.3 Particle Generators) would set you back 15k Dil, 500 Nukara Marks, 10k Expertise, and 10 Energy Cells. That covers one of your [Acc] mods while also providing some other benefits. Yes, it takes a console slot - but it does provide some additional benefits...and as we can see, will save you more money than Geico could in 15 minutes.
We still need another [Acc] mod from somewhere. Hey, guess what else they introduced...Auto Targeting Modules. They're 22,564 Dil each. Four of them would set you back 90,256 Dil - unless you happened to grab any [+Dis] for free.
Combined, the console and four ATMs would set you back 105,256 Dil. Which at the current exchange rate of 134 Dil : 1 Zen, you'd be looking at around 786 Zen...which would get you ~six Lockbox keys that you could sell for ~1.8m each...or 10.8m.
So uh...yeah...that's ~16.4m vs. ~147.8m.
But wait one says, 4x 30% vs. 4x 20%? Why would anybody do that? Again, because you're also picking up +2% CrtH and +20% CrtD. Your average DPS is actually going to work out to be better for nearly a tenth the cost.
Maybe you go [CrtH]x2 instead, [CrtD]x2 instead, etc, etc, etc...you wouldn't be able to make those kind of decisions about what might be best for your build without information...
...so it's just information. It shouldn't be depressing.
In this case, with the sheer magnitude of CrtH we can stack - we can better illustrate some of the problems some may be experiencing in PvP to the Devs as well as point out where it's also likely going to be throwing off their metrics over in PvE. Remember, they've got that Cryptic 15 Minute Golden Rule...of what the rewards should be for 15 minutes of effort. If folks can TRIBBLE that all to Hell and back again, that's going to cause problems for Cryptic...so they'd end up taking a look at it.
It's just information...shouldn't be depressing. Shouldn't necessarily tent the jeans or anything, lol...but it shouldn't be depressing, imho...it's just information.
Fair call. I just get tired of people who care about their own little subsection of the game. Capping crit hit won't ruin PvE as PvE can't achieve the crit levels that the new consoles will bring out. Basically it will be business as normal. Capping crit will prevent PvP from being broken. People who care about their build/ship/piece of game to the expense of everyone else irritates me.
Capping crit for pve will simply be just that a cap, as for pvp it will not improve upon pvp by much at all because there is no quick fix to pvp. If the game has become unchallenging to you from min/max the hell out of something, than go find some other game to challenge you and stop trying to reign in on other people's fun.
This makes me laugh. When I level up a new toon I only add common or uncommon consoles to my ships and I don't spend any skill points yet I can complete all of PvE content and compete in STFs without breaking a sweat. If you need OP gear to play then either a) you must like to be able to complete PvE content by using only a single finger or b) you really suck at the game and desperately need it.
NB: darramouss1 did subsequently apologize for this so kudos to him, but wait there's more.
LoL... You needed the valdore console? really? in PvE? you must be a really horrible player.
To prove a point, just today, I took my sci ship into the middle of a large mob of Voth NPC's (1 battleship, 2 cruisers and a host of frigates). I activated 2 abilities... just 2, neither from a console. Warp Plamsa 1 and Sensor Scan. Guess what. They all died and I came out unscathed. The PvE in this game is so ridiculously easy that a partially trained monkey could play it w/o needing a crutch like pre-fix Valdore.
I normally try to avoid these types of I'm 'leet and you're not post, but I get really tired of people blaming PvP for "nerfs". If it wasn't breaking PvE it wouldn't have been fixed. 1 console was allowing people to beat No-Win and that's why it was nerfed. Same with Tric's, Double Tap BO, etc... People exploiting mechanics to wreck PvE is the only thing that makes Cryptic sit up and take a second look.
I could not agree with the OP more ... My parrot pecking at the space bar can murder the current squads in game right now.
Joined the DPS 11K channel yet where the Elite PVER's hang out to get a balanced argument or is it because you really needed the broken Valdor console to actually survive against the weak mobs?
Most of the times, bugs get discovered in PvP because seasoned PvP players know what to expect from a certain ability and they can smell it when it behaves funny. In contrast to this, in PvE, there is either "ZOMG this thing hits HARD. Who cares why the ef this hits hard, lets just use it!!!", or "This thing sucks, not worth using it!", or "OMG, npcs are OP, nerf them!!"
Basically, if you only focus on PvE, your only concern is how fast you can kill npcs without dying yourself. Well, basically the ultimate goal of PvP is also the same, but where this differs from PvE is that in PvE, once u discover certain things work, you tend to stick to it. This basically means you don't explore your abilities as much, and you don't care if something is broken, as long as that 'broken something' is not hurting you. Case in point, you were quite happy with Valdore console when they were not behaving as intended, but I bet you were mighty worried when leech stacked against yourself for a few days. Amiright?
used to be good? Let me fix that for you: "use it for be god"
People using that console was inmortal in PvE, and in PvP in most of the situations.The healing score was making them win the 1st spot in cristaline entitiy all the time, a t'varo with that console was able of do more healing than a eng heal boat lol.
why does this section exist when the pvp forum exists, is a better question lol.
Now I for one have a great deal of admiration and respect for many of the above people (sorry I don't know all of you yet) and am probably risking a backlash for posting this, but it needs to be said. How can you read the above, and this is just one thread that is far from done, and not understand why people in this game think PvP'ers have this elitist attitude and thumb their noses at everyone else? The people I know listed above are descent, friendly, and helpful but this hubris is embarrassing.
There are many good comments in this thread and am always amazed at Virusdancer's skill with the math details and logic. Imagine how much more effective this thread would be without out all the vitriol. Why would anyone want to post anything that might be construed as contrary to the hard core PvP opinion? Most people aren't masochists.
I admit, I suck at PvP, would like to play more and improve, but I read this kind of unnecessary abuse and say, meh, maybe later. Some of you hard core PvP'ers are shooting yourselves in the foot IMHO; and that's too bad because like me I'm sure there are plenty of casual PvP fans that hope Cryptic will improve this portion of the game; that is until we read posts like those above.
Ruin PvE by making it a little bit more difficult for you to face roll through it? If anything, unrelenting power creep with no increase in PvE difficulty is ruining PvE.
If I could +1 this post I would. PvE is getting too easy. I really hope they add another level of difficulty with better AI and skills. Adding more hp will just make it last a little bit longer but not add any more fun.
I will say though, in general, pve has gotten more fun. The elachi and the voth both use meaningful skills. They're still easy, but it's way better than before LoR.
tpalelena's issue isn't really about pvp ruining anything, if you take all of his posts about pvp, his issue is just that pvp exists. If one makes a post that debunks his theories or shows a dev post that also debunks him, he just either doesn't respond or just spouts off the same thing he said before. I've just gone on to ignore his posts because they don't actually add to the discussion in any meaningful way.
NB: darramouss1 did subsequently apologize for this so kudos to him, but wait there's more.
Now I for one have a great deal of admiration and respect for many of the above people (sorry I don't know all of you yet) and am probably risking a backlash for posting this, but it needs to be said. How can you read the above, and this is just one thread that is far from done, and not understand why people in this game think PvP'ers have this elitist attitude and thumb their noses at everyone else? The people I know listed above are descent, friendly, and helpful but this hubris is embarrassing.
There are many good comments in this thread and am always amazed at Virusdancer's skill with the math details and logic. Imagine how much more effective this thread would be without out all the vitriol. Why would anyone want to post anything that might be construed as contrary to the hard core PvP opinion? Most people aren't masochists.
I admit, I suck at PvP, would like to play more and improve, but I read this kind of unnecessary abuse and say, meh, maybe later. Some of you hard core PvP'ers are shooting yourselves in the foot IMHO; and that's too bad because like me I'm sure there are plenty of casual PvP fans that hope Cryptic will improve this portion of the game; that is until we read posts like those above.
I agree with you, and I laugh at the PVP'ers in this game that think they are the best, this game is easy to play, it does not need skill at all, ok maybe a little...
Tell you what come play a real space game, that needs skill like Elite Dangerous. And try and take me out in a dogfight. And I mean real flying, none of this looking at the ship, in the cockpit doing proper flying in space barrel rolls and 360's all sorts to try and keep on my tail, and you will miss.
Now you must all remember Elite, it was the very first proper space sim, it broke the mould of all other games, gone were the platforms, and for the very first time, we had a sense of exploration in a game. A game that let you fly the ship from the cockpit, giving you a sense of being there. Yes graphics were basic, much like the BBC Basic computer that it was designed for, however it kept us all hooked, why? Because it was space battle after space battle, giving you the user complete control of what you wanted to do. Now this game is back for the new generation of computers, and man its going to rock, however this game takes real skill, nothing like we are playing now! So come play a man's game, I dare you all...
This is a great game, however its not proper space battle, so please stop boasting about, what you can do in this game. Because its just basic, it has no real battles at all, just point and fire, and hope your A2B build keeps up for you.
why does this section exist when the pvp forum exists, is a better question lol.
Game mechanics affect both PvE and PvP; that's why this forum exists. When pwebranflakes was reorganizing the forums, I suggested that he create a separate forum for game mechanics, because I thought there needed to be a place to discuss game mechanics that was not PvP-specific. I'm not sure what your objection is to this.
Game mechanics affect both PvE and PvP; that's why this forum exists. When pwebranflakes was reorganizing the forums, I suggested that he create a separate forum for game mechanics
I want to say thanks for that...because previously, it was usually a case of either discussing things in PvP or General Troll. Things tend to be a bit more neutral here...a thread that's getting trolled hardcore in either of the other two locations, tends to carry on as a pretty decent discussion here after it is moved.
I want to say thanks for that...because previously, it was usually a case of either discussing things in PvP or General Troll. Things tend to be a bit more neutral here...a thread that's getting trolled hardcore in either of the other two locations, tends to carry on as a pretty decent discussion here after it is moved.
Yeah, how's my world without lawyers looking now eh? =P
I want to say thanks for that...because previously, it was usually a case of either discussing things in PvP or General Troll. Things tend to be a bit more neutral here...a thread that's getting trolled hardcore in either of the other two locations, tends to carry on as a pretty decent discussion here after it is moved.
Although I don't always succeed at being objective myself, I agree that it is better to discuss things based on facts rather than engage in the polemics we often find in these forums.
Regarding the topic of this thread, I do agree that crit chance and severity have gotten a little out of hand, but it's the predictable result of all the crit bonuses---rep passives, Romulan boffs, crit consoles, and now spire consoles. I find it difficult to believe that Cryptic couldn't see this when they released all these bonuses. Maybe, they considered the first few bonuses in isolation only. But by Season 8, they should be aware that people are stacking crit bonuses, yet they released the new Dyson passive and spire consoles anyway.
1) Not everyone is a Rom: some of us really *do* need the extra CrtH.
2) PvE hasn't only gotten easier. The Voth really sting. They subnuke you, hard, have some sort of ueber-tachyon beam, and drain like crazy. That's all good, btw; but it hasn't gotten only easier, is the point.
And on a general note, I feel this thread was created, and suported, by said Roms, already sitting on >25% CrtH. And you're right: you're getting too much, and some should be taken away from you. Just don't try and drag everyone else down with you in the process.
2) PvE hasn't only gotten easier. The Voth really sting. They subnuke you, hard, have some sort of ueber-tachyon beam, and drain like crazy. That's all good, btw; but it hasn't gotten only easier, is the point.
As an aside, I think it's a trip that the Adventure Zone Voth (imho) are more difficult than the Elite Voth in Breach or Storming. But yeah, it's actually kind of fun to fight the AZ Voth - wish more NPCs were like that. Heck, bring back some of the LoR Beta Elachi - add in some AZ Voth...mmmmmgood.
Capping crit for pve will simply be just that a cap, as for pvp it will not improve upon pvp by much at all because there is no quick fix to pvp. If the game has become unchallenging to you from min/max the hell out of something, than go find some other game to challenge you and stop trying to reign in on other people's fun.
How is capping CritH reigning in PvE players' fun? The consoles haven't yet been released for PvE players to have fun with yet. What you said would only apply if the game was currently no longer fun for PvE players and they were depending on the consoles to make the game fun again.
If any players are at the point where they depend on a specific thing to be released before they can have fun again I put it to you that maybe the game is no longer for them.
Capping the CritH before these new consoles come out would barely affect those who are currently playing PvE. (Well, maybe it would affect Romulan players, but they've had it pretty good with their sooper-dooper high CritH.)
Capping CritH would not improve the game for PvP players, rather it would help the game suffer less from power creep.
Now I for one have a great deal of admiration and respect for many of the above people (sorry I don't know all of you yet) and am probably risking a backlash for posting this, but it needs to be said. How can you read the above, and this is just one thread that is far from done, and not understand why people in this game think PvP'ers have this elitist attitude and thumb their noses at everyone else? The people I know listed above are descent, friendly, and helpful but this hubris is embarrassing.
There are many good comments in this thread and am always amazed at Virusdancer's skill with the math details and logic. Imagine how much more effective this thread would be without out all the vitriol. Why would anyone want to post anything that might be construed as contrary to the hard core PvP opinion? Most people aren't masochists.
I admit, I suck at PvP, would like to play more and improve, but I read this kind of unnecessary abuse and say, meh, maybe later. Some of you hard core PvP'ers are shooting yourselves in the foot IMHO; and that's too bad because like me I'm sure there are plenty of casual PvP fans that hope Cryptic will improve this portion of the game; that is until we read posts like those above.
I'm sorry you feel that way about PvP. I've been PvPing for about a year and a half now. It was a steep learning curve and whilst I'm not as good as some players whom I can't name due to the forum rules, I think I'm "more asset than liability".
How did I get that fabled "more asset than liability" status? Because of other more experienced PvP players. I quickly learned that if I ever asked a question of a player, even one that just spanked me a new TRIBBLE$, 99% of the time they would respond and explain how they did what they did. That's how I learned. Should you ever want to play PvP I strongly suggest you ask people questions and you'll find yourself holding your own in no time. You'll also see that we're not as bad as these forums make us out to be.
Now, why do we sometimes sound elitist? Because anytime something broken is released it ALWAYS affects PvP in a negative way. We pick it up and try to get it fixed. When we try to get some things fixed we get attacked by PvE players who accuse us of breaking their game. It then turns in to PvP-vs-PvE and you know the rest. (If you read this thread from the beginning you'll see that things started to go downhill after comments #11 and #17, btw.)
Why do PvP players always get negatively affected by broken items? Because if it's stronger than it should be, the targeted player will notice it. If it's weaker than it should be, the player using it will notice it. I honestly believe that PvP players find more bugs than PvE players because of this.
I cannot speak for others you quoted, but I honestly believed I was being a realist, not an elitist. I spoke, what I usually observe. I believe I also mentioned in subsequent post that I don't believe all PvEers to be button bashing mindless trolls.
But you gotta admit it, in all of PvE content, there is no single mission or even an opportunity where you have to choose your abilities intelligently. There will be one of two tactics, which once you familiarize yourself with, you can complete the mission with your eyes closed. All it takes is a good build and a good spacebar-bind. Maybe you will need to throw out an occasional RSP or HE, but that is about it. Heck, if you got enough firepower, then you don't even need to bother with tactics, you can go in all out fires blazing and come out laughing and unscathed 2 mins later.
In PvE, you don't ever need to time your alpha or your subnuc, because every time is a good time to activate any and all abilities you got + the kitchen sink. It has always been about maximizing dps first and foremost. So you don't ever need to sit on any ability, judging every single moment whether this is the right time to activate it. The blame for this state of affairs should be shared by both cryptic and the players. Cryptic, for steadily and consistently introducing various power creeps, and the player base, for accepting it.
And don't worry about sucking in pvp. I have told you before, we all suck at various levels. The goal is to suck less tomorrow than we did yesterday.
Why do PvP players always get negatively affected by broken items? Because if it's stronger than it should be, the targeted player will notice it. If it's weaker than it should be, the player using it will notice it. I honestly believe that PvP players find more bugs than PvE players because of this.
It always, ALWAYS boils down to "us vs them". The difference being, in PvE, "us" is us and "them" are npcs, while in PvP, "us" is "us" and them is also "us". And we all know npcs don't complaint.
How is capping CritH reigning in PvE players' fun? The consoles haven't yet been released for PvE players to have fun with yet. What you said would only apply if the game was currently no longer fun for PvE players and they were depending on the consoles to make the game fun again.
If any players are at the point where they depend on a specific thing to be released before they can have fun again I put it to you that maybe the game is no longer for them.
Capping the CritH before these new consoles come out would barely affect those who are currently playing PvE. (Well, maybe it would affect Romulan players, but they've had it pretty good with their sooper-dooper high CritH.)
Capping CritH would not improve the game for PvP players, rather it would help the game suffer less from power creep.
I'm sorry you feel that way about PvP. I've been PvPing for about a year and a half now. It was a steep learning curve and whilst I'm not as good as some players whom I can't name due to the forum rules, I think I'm "more asset than liability".
How did I get that fabled "more asset than liability" status? Because of other more experienced PvP players. I quickly learned that if I ever asked a question of a player, even one that just spanked me a new TRIBBLE$, 99% of the time they would respond and explain how they did what they did. That's how I learned. Should you ever want to play PvP I strongly suggest you ask people questions and you'll find yourself holding your own in no time. You'll also see that we're not as bad as these forums make us out to be.
Now, why do we sometimes sound elitist? Because anytime something broken is released it ALWAYS affects PvP in a negative way. We pick it up and try to get it fixed. When we try to get some things fixed we get attacked by PvE players who accuse us of breaking their game. It then turns in to PvP-vs-PvE and you know the rest. (If you read this thread from the beginning you'll see that things started to go downhill after comments #11 and #17, btw.)
Why do PvP players always get negatively affected by broken items? Because if it's stronger than it should be, the targeted player will notice it. If it's weaker than it should be, the player using it will notice it. I honestly believe that PvP players find more bugs than PvE players because of this.
Because there are people who enjoy playing the game as though they are roll stomping superior to AI enemies, just like in some fantasy games that allow you to inevitably destroy enemies as though you were a god. Not everyone enjoys frustration from ever increasing enemies power potential or cheap tactics, and not everyone has superior builds/money or time invested yet for you all to ask for massive enemy challenge increase. Why do you think so few enjoy playing HE? Because to a good amount of people it isn't challenging, it's simply frustrating! :rolleyes:
Just saying Romulans broke Crits. Before that they were at least somewhat manageable.
Secondly PvP and PvE do need a sepration the two will never balance out, just due to sheer number of combinations of stuff.
Seriously if you sneeze too hard next to something in this game it breaks a portion of the game....
Addition: If you want to cap Crits, lower the cap on Resists. Its BS that i can go into PvP and the only true damage im doing is from Crits. Do you know how obnoxious it is firing away with all you have just to watch your damage tick along....25...34......15......21......Critical 1563......
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Here's a question for you, basically for anybody...
When did you complete NWS?
Was it before S7?
Was it before LoR?
Was it before S8?
Was it before any of the incremental boosts that were done?
I haven't done it. I mean, literally, I've never even tried it. Not my thing. Not a cop-out or defense mechanism, I'd probably fail miserably and be laughed at. It's just not my thing.
But I can see where folks that did it...at a certain point...deserve more respect than those that did it later. There's no offense meant with that, as offensive as it sounds. It's just there's been so much TRIBBLE added to the game...well, NWS isn't as difficult as it once was.
So in saying they shouldn't nerf your NWS build...honestly, should you have a farming build for something called No Win Scenario? Doesn't that set off all sorts of alarms that there's something horribly wrong with the game?
And that's why this really isn't a PvP thing in the least...it's about how horribly broken PvE is, eh?
Crit is getting out of control on Roms, but nefing already existing sources of crit will make a lot of people mad. Best to nerf stuff people don't have yet, those new spire tac consoles, people will still get them anyway as its a cheaper way to get mk xii purple tac consoles then exchange, so they don't need the vulnerability locator to be strong. Also maybe that T 4 dyson passive should be looked at. Romulan boffs should not be nerfed, but other factions should get more boffs with space traits.
Maybe there should be some item or ability that gives chance% to resist placates too.
Crit is getting out of control on Roms, but nefing already existing sources of crit will make a lot of people mad. Best to nerf stuff people don't have yet, those new spire tac consoles, people will still get them anyway as its a cheaper way to get mk xii purple tac consoles then exchange, so they don't need the vulnerability locator to be strong. Also maybe that T 4 dyson passive should be looked at. Romulan boffs should not be nerfed, but other factions should get more boffs with space traits.
Maybe there should be some item or ability that gives chance% to resist placates too.
You mean like starship sensors the skill in your captain skills? I belive that it is also available on items already.......
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You mean like starship sensors the skill in your captain skills? I belive that it is also available on items already.......
See, I'm not a fan of how a bunch of the things work...that being one of them.
Consider the following, eh?
Stan 9 Starship Sensors (-50%)
Steve 0 Starship Sensors (-0%)
Pete 9 Starship Countermeasure Systems (+50%)
Phil 0 Starship Countermeasure Systems (+0%)
Stan has a Tractor on Phil. Phil uses Jam. Tractor is broken.
Stan has a Tractor on Pete. Pete uses Jam. Tractor is broken.
Steve has a Tractor on Phil. Phil uses Jam. Tractor is broken.
Steve has a Tractor on Pete. Pete uses Jam. Tractor is broken.
Four different scenarios. Four different skill levels. Four results that are the same.
Certainly, when Phil uses Jam on on Stan it's not going to last as long as Pete's Jam on Steve. That aspect will be different...
...but in all four scenarios, the Tractor was broken.
Stan's skill or Steve's lack of skill did not matter for that.
Pete's skill or Phil's lack of skill did not matter for that.
Starship Sensors did not provide any form of proactive defense or hardening - it only provided a partial resistance to the effect after the effect had already taken place.
So...no, what he was asking for doesn't exist in regard to the skill you mentioned in reply.
You mean like starship sensors the skill in your captain skills? I belive that it is also available on items already.......
That doesn't help with sensor targeting assault, it barely helps lower other confuse and placates either I put 30 sec scrambles on people all the time. There should be a partial or maybe even complete immunity buff depending on the ability/console used and its cooldown.
Comments
Ruin PvE by making it a little bit more difficult for you to face roll through it? If anything, unrelenting power creep with no increase in PvE difficulty is ruining PvE.
Hrmmm, that would definitely be interesting info to have...how that's actually limited. Thanks for the replies there...
edit: Suppose the next time I get one, I can test it against one of my guys to see..heh.
they could remove crits and most pve'ers wouldn't even notice it. the only thing that would ruin pve is if there were to many crits, not to little, as if it wasn't already a trivial enough exercise to space bar an npc to death.
my romulan's already at over 20% crit base, without counting any weapons mods, skill tree, and no spire tactical consoles. in your opinion, how much crit is enough? how much is to much?
Answer: It discusses gameplay mechanics which has its own sub forum.
On topic though, I can also think of a rather nice suppression build involving Voth antiproton weapons, with a crit rate that high you should see a lot of procs in a short amount of time. I would think you could get a good -50% damage going on the enemy no?
However capping critical hit chance would reduce their effectiveness quite a lot. You also have to remember not everyone will be able to get or use all this critical hit increasing stuff, believe it or not a lot of players are quite poor in terms of ec and don't spend a lot of money on this game.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
1.) Nerf Superior Romulan Operative to 1% crit and 5% severity. Even after the nerf, they're still better than any other alternative.
2.) Nerf the tier 1 and tier 2 Romulan Rep bonus to 2% crit. Even after the nerf, its still better than the alternative.
3.) Reduce the crit on Vulnerability Locator consoles to 0.8% crit. Even after the nerf, its still better than any other alternative.
Meh, it's just information. It's stuff that lets us make better informed decisions about our builds. It's stuff that let's us communicate better to the Devs why PvE content might be getting finished faster than they intended or why folks in PvP might be having such a hard time.
For the decisions thing, it's like what I'm discussing over in the Auto Targeting Module thread...
Consider the following:
You want to buy six Polarized Disruptor Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2. To buy the cheapest six currently listed on the Exchange, you're going to shell out 27,374,000 EC for them.
Say you opted to go with [CrtD][CrtH] instead? 5,613,999 EC for the six cheapest on the Exchange - that's total. Why? I'll explain in a moment.
First though, let's say you also wanted four Disruptor Induction Coil Mk XII. The cheapest four on the Exchange are going to set you back 120,498,000 EC.
So combined, those six [Acc]x2 Arrays and four Mk XII Coils are going to bleed your wallet for 147,872,000 EC. Yeah, I had to go for a smoke after reading that number.
Okay then, what was the 5.6m number for then? What good are the [CrtD][CrtH] if you want [Acc]x2?
A Nukara Particle Converter which provides +10% Accuracy for Beams (as well as +5 Shield Power, +17.3 Power Insulators, & +17.3 Particle Generators) would set you back 15k Dil, 500 Nukara Marks, 10k Expertise, and 10 Energy Cells. That covers one of your [Acc] mods while also providing some other benefits. Yes, it takes a console slot - but it does provide some additional benefits...and as we can see, will save you more money than Geico could in 15 minutes.
We still need another [Acc] mod from somewhere. Hey, guess what else they introduced...Auto Targeting Modules. They're 22,564 Dil each. Four of them would set you back 90,256 Dil - unless you happened to grab any [+Dis] for free.
Combined, the console and four ATMs would set you back 105,256 Dil. Which at the current exchange rate of 134 Dil : 1 Zen, you'd be looking at around 786 Zen...which would get you ~six Lockbox keys that you could sell for ~1.8m each...or 10.8m.
So uh...yeah...that's ~16.4m vs. ~147.8m.
But wait one says, 4x 30% vs. 4x 20%? Why would anybody do that? Again, because you're also picking up +2% CrtH and +20% CrtD. Your average DPS is actually going to work out to be better for nearly a tenth the cost.
Maybe you go [CrtH]x2 instead, [CrtD]x2 instead, etc, etc, etc...you wouldn't be able to make those kind of decisions about what might be best for your build without information...
...so it's just information. It shouldn't be depressing.
In this case, with the sheer magnitude of CrtH we can stack - we can better illustrate some of the problems some may be experiencing in PvP to the Devs as well as point out where it's also likely going to be throwing off their metrics over in PvE. Remember, they've got that Cryptic 15 Minute Golden Rule...of what the rewards should be for 15 minutes of effort. If folks can TRIBBLE that all to Hell and back again, that's going to cause problems for Cryptic...so they'd end up taking a look at it.
It's just information...shouldn't be depressing. Shouldn't necessarily tent the jeans or anything, lol...but it shouldn't be depressing, imho...it's just information.
Capping crit for pve will simply be just that a cap, as for pvp it will not improve upon pvp by much at all because there is no quick fix to pvp. If the game has become unchallenging to you from min/max the hell out of something, than go find some other game to challenge you and stop trying to reign in on other people's fun.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
NB: darramouss1 did subsequently apologize for this so kudos to him, but wait there's more.
Now I for one have a great deal of admiration and respect for many of the above people (sorry I don't know all of you yet) and am probably risking a backlash for posting this, but it needs to be said. How can you read the above, and this is just one thread that is far from done, and not understand why people in this game think PvP'ers have this elitist attitude and thumb their noses at everyone else? The people I know listed above are descent, friendly, and helpful but this hubris is embarrassing.
There are many good comments in this thread and am always amazed at Virusdancer's skill with the math details and logic. Imagine how much more effective this thread would be without out all the vitriol. Why would anyone want to post anything that might be construed as contrary to the hard core PvP opinion? Most people aren't masochists.
I admit, I suck at PvP, would like to play more and improve, but I read this kind of unnecessary abuse and say, meh, maybe later. Some of you hard core PvP'ers are shooting yourselves in the foot IMHO; and that's too bad because like me I'm sure there are plenty of casual PvP fans that hope Cryptic will improve this portion of the game; that is until we read posts like those above.
If I could +1 this post I would. PvE is getting too easy. I really hope they add another level of difficulty with better AI and skills. Adding more hp will just make it last a little bit longer but not add any more fun.
I will say though, in general, pve has gotten more fun. The elachi and the voth both use meaningful skills. They're still easy, but it's way better than before LoR.
tpalelena's issue isn't really about pvp ruining anything, if you take all of his posts about pvp, his issue is just that pvp exists. If one makes a post that debunks his theories or shows a dev post that also debunks him, he just either doesn't respond or just spouts off the same thing he said before. I've just gone on to ignore his posts because they don't actually add to the discussion in any meaningful way.
I agree with you, and I laugh at the PVP'ers in this game that think they are the best, this game is easy to play, it does not need skill at all, ok maybe a little...
Tell you what come play a real space game, that needs skill like Elite Dangerous. And try and take me out in a dogfight. And I mean real flying, none of this looking at the ship, in the cockpit doing proper flying in space barrel rolls and 360's all sorts to try and keep on my tail, and you will miss.
http://elite.frontier.co.uk/
Now you must all remember Elite, it was the very first proper space sim, it broke the mould of all other games, gone were the platforms, and for the very first time, we had a sense of exploration in a game. A game that let you fly the ship from the cockpit, giving you a sense of being there. Yes graphics were basic, much like the BBC Basic computer that it was designed for, however it kept us all hooked, why? Because it was space battle after space battle, giving you the user complete control of what you wanted to do. Now this game is back for the new generation of computers, and man its going to rock, however this game takes real skill, nothing like we are playing now! So come play a man's game, I dare you all...
This is a great game, however its not proper space battle, so please stop boasting about, what you can do in this game. Because its just basic, it has no real battles at all, just point and fire, and hope your A2B build keeps up for you.
Please if you find this offensive, get a life!
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Best fleet in Star Trek Online...
We even have our own merchandise!!! Come join us today...
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Game mechanics affect both PvE and PvP; that's why this forum exists. When pwebranflakes was reorganizing the forums, I suggested that he create a separate forum for game mechanics, because I thought there needed to be a place to discuss game mechanics that was not PvP-specific. I'm not sure what your objection is to this.
I want to say thanks for that...because previously, it was usually a case of either discussing things in PvP or General Troll. Things tend to be a bit more neutral here...a thread that's getting trolled hardcore in either of the other two locations, tends to carry on as a pretty decent discussion here after it is moved.
Yeah, how's my world without lawyers looking now eh? =P
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Although I don't always succeed at being objective myself, I agree that it is better to discuss things based on facts rather than engage in the polemics we often find in these forums.
Regarding the topic of this thread, I do agree that crit chance and severity have gotten a little out of hand, but it's the predictable result of all the crit bonuses---rep passives, Romulan boffs, crit consoles, and now spire consoles. I find it difficult to believe that Cryptic couldn't see this when they released all these bonuses. Maybe, they considered the first few bonuses in isolation only. But by Season 8, they should be aware that people are stacking crit bonuses, yet they released the new Dyson passive and spire consoles anyway.
1) Not everyone is a Rom: some of us really *do* need the extra CrtH.
2) PvE hasn't only gotten easier. The Voth really sting. They subnuke you, hard, have some sort of ueber-tachyon beam, and drain like crazy. That's all good, btw; but it hasn't gotten only easier, is the point.
And on a general note, I feel this thread was created, and suported, by said Roms, already sitting on >25% CrtH. And you're right: you're getting too much, and some should be taken away from you. Just don't try and drag everyone else down with you in the process.
As an aside, I think it's a trip that the Adventure Zone Voth (imho) are more difficult than the Elite Voth in Breach or Storming. But yeah, it's actually kind of fun to fight the AZ Voth - wish more NPCs were like that. Heck, bring back some of the LoR Beta Elachi - add in some AZ Voth...mmmmmgood.
How is capping CritH reigning in PvE players' fun? The consoles haven't yet been released for PvE players to have fun with yet. What you said would only apply if the game was currently no longer fun for PvE players and they were depending on the consoles to make the game fun again.
If any players are at the point where they depend on a specific thing to be released before they can have fun again I put it to you that maybe the game is no longer for them.
Capping the CritH before these new consoles come out would barely affect those who are currently playing PvE. (Well, maybe it would affect Romulan players, but they've had it pretty good with their sooper-dooper high CritH.)
Capping CritH would not improve the game for PvP players, rather it would help the game suffer less from power creep.
I'm sorry you feel that way about PvP. I've been PvPing for about a year and a half now. It was a steep learning curve and whilst I'm not as good as some players whom I can't name due to the forum rules, I think I'm "more asset than liability".
How did I get that fabled "more asset than liability" status? Because of other more experienced PvP players. I quickly learned that if I ever asked a question of a player, even one that just spanked me a new TRIBBLE$, 99% of the time they would respond and explain how they did what they did. That's how I learned. Should you ever want to play PvP I strongly suggest you ask people questions and you'll find yourself holding your own in no time. You'll also see that we're not as bad as these forums make us out to be.
Now, why do we sometimes sound elitist? Because anytime something broken is released it ALWAYS affects PvP in a negative way. We pick it up and try to get it fixed. When we try to get some things fixed we get attacked by PvE players who accuse us of breaking their game. It then turns in to PvP-vs-PvE and you know the rest. (If you read this thread from the beginning you'll see that things started to go downhill after comments #11 and #17, btw.)
Why do PvP players always get negatively affected by broken items? Because if it's stronger than it should be, the targeted player will notice it. If it's weaker than it should be, the player using it will notice it. I honestly believe that PvP players find more bugs than PvE players because of this.
I cannot speak for others you quoted, but I honestly believed I was being a realist, not an elitist. I spoke, what I usually observe. I believe I also mentioned in subsequent post that I don't believe all PvEers to be button bashing mindless trolls.
But you gotta admit it, in all of PvE content, there is no single mission or even an opportunity where you have to choose your abilities intelligently. There will be one of two tactics, which once you familiarize yourself with, you can complete the mission with your eyes closed. All it takes is a good build and a good spacebar-bind. Maybe you will need to throw out an occasional RSP or HE, but that is about it. Heck, if you got enough firepower, then you don't even need to bother with tactics, you can go in all out fires blazing and come out laughing and unscathed 2 mins later.
In PvE, you don't ever need to time your alpha or your subnuc, because every time is a good time to activate any and all abilities you got + the kitchen sink. It has always been about maximizing dps first and foremost. So you don't ever need to sit on any ability, judging every single moment whether this is the right time to activate it. The blame for this state of affairs should be shared by both cryptic and the players. Cryptic, for steadily and consistently introducing various power creeps, and the player base, for accepting it.
And don't worry about sucking in pvp. I have told you before, we all suck at various levels. The goal is to suck less tomorrow than we did yesterday.
It always, ALWAYS boils down to "us vs them". The difference being, in PvE, "us" is us and "them" are npcs, while in PvP, "us" is "us" and them is also "us". And we all know npcs don't complaint.
Elite Defense Stovokor
Because there are people who enjoy playing the game as though they are roll stomping superior to AI enemies, just like in some fantasy games that allow you to inevitably destroy enemies as though you were a god. Not everyone enjoys frustration from ever increasing enemies power potential or cheap tactics, and not everyone has superior builds/money or time invested yet for you all to ask for massive enemy challenge increase. Why do you think so few enjoy playing HE? Because to a good amount of people it isn't challenging, it's simply frustrating! :rolleyes:
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Secondly PvP and PvE do need a sepration the two will never balance out, just due to sheer number of combinations of stuff.
Seriously if you sneeze too hard next to something in this game it breaks a portion of the game....
Addition: If you want to cap Crits, lower the cap on Resists. Its BS that i can go into PvP and the only true damage im doing is from Crits. Do you know how obnoxious it is firing away with all you have just to watch your damage tick along....25...34......15......21......Critical 1563......
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Great nerf my nws build to TRIBBLE....
Nerf Bfaw and scimatar's ... great nerv my stf build...
Here's a question for you, basically for anybody...
When did you complete NWS?
Was it before S7?
Was it before LoR?
Was it before S8?
Was it before any of the incremental boosts that were done?
I haven't done it. I mean, literally, I've never even tried it. Not my thing. Not a cop-out or defense mechanism, I'd probably fail miserably and be laughed at. It's just not my thing.
But I can see where folks that did it...at a certain point...deserve more respect than those that did it later. There's no offense meant with that, as offensive as it sounds. It's just there's been so much TRIBBLE added to the game...well, NWS isn't as difficult as it once was.
So in saying they shouldn't nerf your NWS build...honestly, should you have a farming build for something called No Win Scenario? Doesn't that set off all sorts of alarms that there's something horribly wrong with the game?
And that's why this really isn't a PvP thing in the least...it's about how horribly broken PvE is, eh?
Maybe there should be some item or ability that gives chance% to resist placates too.
You mean like starship sensors the skill in your captain skills? I belive that it is also available on items already.......
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
See, I'm not a fan of how a bunch of the things work...that being one of them.
Consider the following, eh?
Stan 9 Starship Sensors (-50%)
Steve 0 Starship Sensors (-0%)
Pete 9 Starship Countermeasure Systems (+50%)
Phil 0 Starship Countermeasure Systems (+0%)
Stan has a Tractor on Phil. Phil uses Jam. Tractor is broken.
Stan has a Tractor on Pete. Pete uses Jam. Tractor is broken.
Steve has a Tractor on Phil. Phil uses Jam. Tractor is broken.
Steve has a Tractor on Pete. Pete uses Jam. Tractor is broken.
Four different scenarios. Four different skill levels. Four results that are the same.
Certainly, when Phil uses Jam on on Stan it's not going to last as long as Pete's Jam on Steve. That aspect will be different...
...but in all four scenarios, the Tractor was broken.
Stan's skill or Steve's lack of skill did not matter for that.
Pete's skill or Phil's lack of skill did not matter for that.
Starship Sensors did not provide any form of proactive defense or hardening - it only provided a partial resistance to the effect after the effect had already taken place.
So...no, what he was asking for doesn't exist in regard to the skill you mentioned in reply.
That doesn't help with sensor targeting assault, it barely helps lower other confuse and placates either I put 30 sec scrambles on people all the time. There should be a partial or maybe even complete immunity buff depending on the ability/console used and its cooldown.