why a second thread, cause i need attention in reality i wanted a new title, and a new start, cause the previous one started bad
Heh, the one before the last one...started bad. :eek:
But to elaborate on how the two hit thing can be bad...
Say somebody's sporting 25% CrtH. A single hit has a 25% chance to crit. Two hits has a 43.75% chance for one of the two hits to crit. Even if it's the smaller hit that crits, it's still an increase in damage potential compared to what it would be with a single hit.
With procs that can proc off of a crit, you're looking at an increase chance for those to proc because of the two hits...which can be good or bad depending on that particular proc.
And well, technically it's more than 2/3rd and 1/3rd looking at it.
DEM w/o FAW
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
5:35:50 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 101 False None
5:35:49 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 89 False None
5:35:48 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 111 False None
5:35:47 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 190 True None
DEM w/ FAW
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
5:37:43 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 78 False None
5:37:43 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 43 False None
5:37:42 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 78 False None
5:37:42 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 42 False None
5:37:41 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 88 False None
5:37:41 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 38 False None
5:37:41 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 81 False None
5:37:41 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 47 False None
5:37:40 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 75 False None
5:37:40 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 71 True None
Can see with that w/o FAW...101, 89, 111 are some of the numbers for the non-Crits.
While w/ FAW, if we add the two together...121, 120, 126, 128 are some of the numbers for the non-Crits.
Which is why I did the ~2/3rd and ~1/3rd with the previous post...and how you're still going to do more damage with DEM using FAW than not using FAW. No, it's not 2x the damage, but the 2x the DEM hits is increasing the damage.
2 hits are recorded. Thus, 2x DEM per shot. 2x DEM entries per shot. With the clarification made that the damage varies - with the damage listed so it wasn't a case of trying to make it out to be anything other than what I was saying. It wasn't a case of making a bold statement on page 1 of a report and having the details buried on page 375 of the report in a tiny chart...
Average DPS =(Base DPS+Dmg)*(HitRate*Swings)+((Critrate + CrtH)*(HitRate*Swings)*(Severity +CrtD))
Just plug in your numbers and you'll see. Don't trouble yourself with thinking "oh well the damage number is close to what a MK blah blah blah is". We know it's close. It isn't close enough and it isn't zero. The incremental change is there.
For instance I have crappy crit rate, but I also have crappy consoles. These would be a good choice for me.
If I had awesome consoles and my crappy crit rate, these would be a poor choice for me.
At a high crit rate these consoles would be good choices to balance out a build, and at lower crit rates you would consider them before MK XI Rares.
And as to "they should have done something more interesting"...Hell yeah. Sure giving a way to balance out all the builds out there is nice...sort of. But where's my attack pattern console? Where's my FOMM console? Those are HEAVY choices for a ship to make. Changes like that are opportunities. Straight up DPS is sort of boring.
EDIT: Yah so, just off the cuff, I wouldn't see anyone that DIDN'T already have MK XII consoles passing these consoles over.
...because like I said in that thread, I've never really looked at Average DPS or even that closely at intermixing CrtH/CrtD into the mix. I go Accuracy and almost everything else I add has a premixed amount of CrtH/CrtD...so I'm a lousy source for that kind of discussion.
And well, technically it's more than 2/3rd and 1/3rd looking at it.
DEM w/o FAW
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
5:35:50 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 101 False None
5:35:49 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 89 False None
5:35:48 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 111 False None
5:35:47 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 190 True None
DEM w/ FAW
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
5:37:43 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 78 False None
5:37:43 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 43 False None
5:37:42 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 78 False None
5:37:42 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 42 False None
5:37:41 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 88 False None
5:37:41 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 38 False None
5:37:41 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 81 False None
5:37:41 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 47 False None
5:37:40 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 75 False None
5:37:40 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 71 True None
Can see with that w/o FAW...101, 89, 111 are some of the numbers for the non-Crits.
While w/ FAW, if we add the two together...121, 120, 126, 128 are some of the numbers for the non-Crits.
My intuition says that its bugged. I would guess that the 1st DEM is the real thing, but its lower than normal from loss of weapon power on BFaW, and that the 2nd number is junk data. I am guessing.
So, based on your analysis, would I be better off popping an Aux Battery immediately prior to invoking DEM3 as part of my buff stack (which includes APO1, APA3, EPtW1, FOMM3 and BFAW2) than a Weapons Battery or even my Weapons Capacitor? In other words, would the additional DEM3 bleed-through damage outweigh the potential benefits of boosting my beam overcap levels?
Note: The above assumes 7x Mark 12 Fleet Polaron Beams (Acc x2, Dmg x2), Plasmonic Leech, ZP Module, Borg Module and Nukara module. And yes, I'm running 2x Aux2Batt with 3 purple techs + Marion.
RCK, I haven't tested what actual difference that converts to in application (as opposed to the rather minor changes reflected on the tooltip). I'm not sure it matters, really...it was just a curious observation.
RCK, I haven't tested what actual difference that converts to in application (as opposed to the rather minor changes reflected on the tooltip). I'm not sure it matters, really...it was just a curious observation.
Keep in mind in the past the DEM tooltip only worked properly for phasers, everything else showed a much lower value than what DEM actually dealt. Not sure if they ever fixed it just a heads up.
*Edit Addon*
VD, DEM deals a % of the weapons damage. Did you perchance have the Tholian Offensive reputation that increased weapon skill and therefore weapon damage and therefore DEM's damage during said test?
Keep in mind in the past the DEM tooltip only worked properly for phasers, everything else showed a much lower value than what DEM actually dealt. Not sure if they ever fixed it just a heads up.
*Edit Addon*
VD, DEM deals a % of the weapons damage. Did you perchance have the Tholian Offensive reputation that increased weapon skill and therefore weapon damage and therefore DEM's damage during said test?
Thanks, Bareel - wasn't thinking about the boost from the T4 Nukara. I'll double check on a guy that doesn't have it and then edit that post above.
And yeah, the DEM numbers won't match the numbers on the weapon when you use DEM.
The issue isn't faw providing an extra dem hit... ALL the weapon buffs do this. It is intended.
Faw provides 5 instead of 4 hits one of them counts as another swing.
This doesn't work any differently then CSV or CRF.
The only thing that WE consider to be a bit on the broken side is the power drain mechanic and all the power creep that is involved with it. It allows these extra hits to hit a second time a FULL power instead of half power as they used to.
Honestly bring back the proper power drain mechanic where wepaon usage didn't auto return power at the end of a weapon cycle... and this "issue" would be fixed overnight.
I grabbed a different guy (didn't want to TRIBBLE up the other guy too much moving things around). I was going to look at the FAW+DEM thing at different levels of FAW and DEM...but I noticed something else.
no FAW (743.7 listed)
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
8:51:27 AM Saraquael Polaron Array Polaron Notus 531 False None
8:51:26 AM Saraquael Polaron Array Polaron Notus 515 False None
8:51:25 AM Saraquael Polaron Array Polaron Notus 481 False None
8:51:24 AM Saraquael Polaron Array Polaron Notus 523 False None
2050 / 4 = 512.5 / 0.725 (DR) = 706.9
FAW3 (819.8 listed / n/a)
edit: bad data
2425 / 5 = 485 / 0.725 (DR) = 669
FAW2 (772.9 listed / ~103.9%)
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
8:58:11 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will II Polaron Notus 535 False Fire at Will II
8:58:10 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will II Polaron Notus 505 False Fire at Will II
8:58:10 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will II Polaron Notus 493 False Fire at Will II
8:58:09 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will II Polaron Notus 555 False Fire at Will II
8:58:08 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will II Polaron Notus 518 False Fire at Will II
2606 / 5 = 521.2 / 0.725 (DR) = 719
FAW1 (732 listed / ~98.4%)
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
8:59:15 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 491 False Fire at Will I
8:59:14 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 444 False Fire at Will I
8:59:13 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 845 True Fire at Will I
8:59:13 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 532 False Fire at Will I
8:59:12 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 491 False Fire at Will I
First, the 845 Crit. Saraquael has 63.6% CrtD. So that hit would have been ~516. Using that 516 for the rest...
2474 / 5 = 494.8 / 0.725 = 682.5
So let's try FAW3 vs. FAW1 again.
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
9:12:49 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 548 False Fire at Will III
9:12:48 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 559 False Fire at Will III
9:12:47 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 555 False Fire at Will III
9:12:46 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 579 False Fire at Will III
9:12:45 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 594 False Fire at Will III
2835 / 5 = 567 / 0.725 = 782.1
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
9:13:15 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 525 False Fire at Will I
9:13:14 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 445 False Fire at Will I
9:13:13 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 485 False Fire at Will I
9:13:12 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 476 False Fire at Will I
9:13:12 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 519 False Fire at Will I
2450 / 5 = 490 / 0.725 = 675.9
Let's do it one more time!
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
9:15:45 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 514 False Fire at Will III
9:15:44 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 505 False Fire at Will III
9:15:43 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 521 False Fire at Will III
9:15:42 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 508 False Fire at Will III
9:15:41 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 526 False Fire at Will III
2574 / 5 = 514.8 / 0.725 = 710.1
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
9:16:08 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 524 False Fire at Will I
9:16:07 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 530 False Fire at Will I
9:16:06 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 473 False Fire at Will I
9:16:06 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 459 False Fire at Will I
9:16:05 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 509 False Fire at Will I
Where this kind of started was with looking at the other guy I had been doing the testing with and looking at the numbers listed/parsed vs. STOwiki.
Prophet doesn't list ~103.9% for FAW2 for his R-Tets like Saraquael does for her normal Polarons. Prophet lists ~78% of non-FAW damage for FAW2 and parses ~80% non-FAW damage for the FAW2.
STOwiki lists a +25% DPS increase for FAW1. Let's look at how that would work with a bogus damage number (easier to work with, eh?...
Fake Array 500 DPV. With a 4/5 cycle, you're looking at 400 DPS. Adding the 5th shot to make it a 5/5 cycle, well - obviously your DPS = DPV...so 500 DPS. 500/400 = 1.25 = +25% DPS.
STOwiki lists a +6% additional (over the +25%) increase for FAW2.
Going back to Saraquael's Polarons, well - we see the following again:
FAW3 ~110.2%, which is close to the +9.6% right?
FAW2 ~103.9%, which is close to the +4.8%, right?
FAW1 ~98.4%, which is close to the base 100%, right?
So - it looks like the STOwiki info is based off of the tooltips, eh?
Course, the parses for Saraquael's Polaron Array didn't quite match the tooltips did it? Heck, the first test - FAW3 did less than FAW1.
Then we've got Prophet and his R-Tet Array, where it's not following the same formula as the Polaron with Saraquael. With Prophet, it's more like this for a comparison to Saraquael...
Yep, those all reflect the base info at STOwiki - so yeah, let's let that go with that. Let's look at Tetryon again though...a Common Mk X Tetryon (no consoles/no set).
Tetryon is broken with FAW. Parsing suggests that FAW in general is broken with FAW1 able to hit harder than FAW3. DEM records 2 hits with FAW (again, to make this extremely clear - it's not 2 hits equal to a DEM hit without FAW - but it is 2 hits that hit for more than 1 hit - the posts are in this thread if you want to go look).
Again, my stuff in this thread and the other is not about the OP/UP discussion. It's just stuff that's broken (or broken, imho). The OP/UP stuff tends to be pointless, might as well be talking about cake vs. pie. It's subjective. That's why I prefer just looking at stuff to see if it's working as expected or not.
The Tric stuff? Wasn't about the damage - was about the chain crits. It wasn't making a roll for each - that's broken. The TIF debates? How many times did I repeat the same thing over and over about the thing that drove me crazy was the desync that usually led to restarting the client? Then the huge thank you to Cryptic when that didn't happen...followed by some perverse moments of flying into TIF because it wasn't causing me to desync anymore. Yeah, I complain about Feds being able to use TDF on a T'varo...because that just doesn't make sense to be able to use that console while cloaked - it just rubs my wee brain the wrong way. Does it create imbalance in the game? Sure, but there's all sorts of things like that between the factions that are still there. Besides, who doesn't see AA <---> TDF coming with a future lockbox? But man oh man, how does a cloaked vessel used a Tachyon Detection Field and remain cloaked? It screams broken at me.
So yeah...I don't care what folks really think about whether something is OP or UP. It's subjective. However, when there's things that just don't appear to match up with what's going on otherwise...where they actually look broken...well yeah, that's where I try to comment.
So again...
Tetryon is broken with FAW. Parsing suggests that FAW in general is broken with FAW1 able to hit harder than FAW3. DEM records 2 hits with FAW (again, to make this extremely clear - it's not 2 hits equal to a DEM hit without FAW - but it is 2 hits that hit for more than 1 hit - as well as just counting as 2 hits for the oodles of offensive/defensive procs in the game - the posts are in this thread if you want to go look).
I guess FAW + DEM is the FotM now. Just ran into 3 premades in a row with it in the arenas.
Haven't had hull all day lol.
What bugs me most is you get the extra proc chance doing it that way. Using tetryon, polaron, phasers, one gets a crazy amount of procs.
EDIT: another thing I noticed is you get the extra DEM hit with dual cannons and not dual heavy cannons. Does that go with single cannons and turrets also?
I think the other thing that may be causing some of the oh mys on this new build. Is the 3 piece Nuk weapon set that adds extra hits off of faw as well.
I am not sure how that interacts with procs... likely its more again.
Is it because the double tap was nerfed away, and people need to complain about something?
FAW and DEM have been outstanding in combination since the Temporal Lockbox was released. They have not gotten better somehow.
Anyway, you folks can continue whining now.
You probably never made a FaW boat that can kill 5 people within 10 seconds have you? ^^
FaW was never ment to directly kill people one by one within seconds, yet builds are made that can do it ^^
BO was ment to do directed spike, but the FaW builds around these days you have like mini BO's going into all directions.
Edit: i forgot to mention the nukara 10% accuracy to all beams .
We really want to get to a game where there is no more coordination, just simple FaW spacebar spam? Just asking. What I think is not of any relevance.
We really want to get to a game where there is no more coordination, just simple FaW spacebar spam? Just asking.
This is the part that most concerns me. I dont even use a spacebar keybind on my BFAW ship, and its ridiculously easy to use as-is. (not to mention boring)
Its like putputzapzap, dont even have to turn. zap. id rather spin and circle and juke and jive on any of my scorts or brel... at least that feels like im DOING something. Even the scimitar cannon pve machine is more "fun" to fly. (mostly due to hysterical powerslides 20k past a target)
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Comments
Heh, the one before the last one...started bad. :eek:
But to elaborate on how the two hit thing can be bad...
Say somebody's sporting 25% CrtH. A single hit has a 25% chance to crit. Two hits has a 43.75% chance for one of the two hits to crit. Even if it's the smaller hit that crits, it's still an increase in damage potential compared to what it would be with a single hit.
With procs that can proc off of a crit, you're looking at an increase chance for those to proc because of the two hits...which can be good or bad depending on that particular proc.
And well, technically it's more than 2/3rd and 1/3rd looking at it.
DEM w/o FAW
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
5:35:50 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 101 False None
5:35:49 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 89 False None
5:35:48 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 111 False None
5:35:47 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 190 True None
DEM w/ FAW
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
5:37:43 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 78 False None
5:37:43 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 43 False None
5:37:42 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 78 False None
5:37:42 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 42 False None
5:37:41 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 88 False None
5:37:41 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 38 False None
5:37:41 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 81 False None
5:37:41 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 47 False None
5:37:40 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 75 False None
5:37:40 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 71 True None
Can see with that w/o FAW...101, 89, 111 are some of the numbers for the non-Crits.
While w/ FAW, if we add the two together...121, 120, 126, 128 are some of the numbers for the non-Crits.
Which is why I did the ~2/3rd and ~1/3rd with the previous post...and how you're still going to do more damage with DEM using FAW than not using FAW. No, it's not 2x the damage, but the 2x the DEM hits is increasing the damage.
I run a all transphasic torp Fleet T'varo
Reman Sci toon(one KDF one Fed indentical twins - another story)
Anyways almost all my shots are TS3 or TS2 - which as you probably know is 100% accuracy/guaranteed hit.
Off the top of my head they are running 18% Crit chance and 80%+ crit severity.
So what type of Trans torp for max Hull damage - 3x CritH or 3x CritD?? (3x dmg?)
Thx
2 hits are recorded. Thus, 2x DEM per shot. 2x DEM entries per shot. With the clarification made that the damage varies - with the damage listed so it wasn't a case of trying to make it out to be anything other than what I was saying. It wasn't a case of making a bold statement on page 1 of a report and having the details buried on page 375 of the report in a tiny chart...
This was the post I figured made Thissler a much better source of answer for that question...
...because like I said in that thread, I've never really looked at Average DPS or even that closely at intermixing CrtH/CrtD into the mix. I go Accuracy and almost everything else I add has a premixed amount of CrtH/CrtD...so I'm a lousy source for that kind of discussion.
Note: The above assumes 7x Mark 12 Fleet Polaron Beams (Acc x2, Dmg x2), Plasmonic Leech, ZP Module, Borg Module and Nukara module. And yes, I'm running 2x Aux2Batt with 3 purple techs + Marion.
RCK
Keep in mind in the past the DEM tooltip only worked properly for phasers, everything else showed a much lower value than what DEM actually dealt. Not sure if they ever fixed it just a heads up.
*Edit Addon*
VD, DEM deals a % of the weapons damage. Did you perchance have the Tholian Offensive reputation that increased weapon skill and therefore weapon damage and therefore DEM's damage during said test?
Thanks, Bareel - wasn't thinking about the boost from the T4 Nukara. I'll double check on a guy that doesn't have it and then edit that post above.
And yeah, the DEM numbers won't match the numbers on the weapon when you use DEM.
For that guy...
+41.4 on DEM.
+43.5 on the weapon.
Faw provides 5 instead of 4 hits one of them counts as another swing.
This doesn't work any differently then CSV or CRF.
The only thing that WE consider to be a bit on the broken side is the power drain mechanic and all the power creep that is involved with it. It allows these extra hits to hit a second time a FULL power instead of half power as they used to.
Honestly bring back the proper power drain mechanic where wepaon usage didn't auto return power at the end of a weapon cycle... and this "issue" would be fixed overnight.
It's PVP someone's got to die, whether by beam or cannon or my good old ramming speed
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
What's the point of playing with dhc escorts now? faw cruisers do more damage, its easier to play, have more heal, we dont need escorts more in STO
Escorts deliver more dps into 1 target more than any amount of BFAWDEMarion, and do not suffer trouble when scrambled.
Plus PVP premade teams have always brought 1 escort only and that's not about to change.
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no FAW (743.7 listed)
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
8:51:27 AM Saraquael Polaron Array Polaron Notus 531 False None
8:51:26 AM Saraquael Polaron Array Polaron Notus 515 False None
8:51:25 AM Saraquael Polaron Array Polaron Notus 481 False None
8:51:24 AM Saraquael Polaron Array Polaron Notus 523 False None
2050 / 4 = 512.5 / 0.725 (DR) = 706.9
FAW3 (819.8 listed / n/a)
edit: bad data
2425 / 5 = 485 / 0.725 (DR) = 669
FAW2 (772.9 listed / ~103.9%)
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
8:58:11 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will II Polaron Notus 535 False Fire at Will II
8:58:10 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will II Polaron Notus 505 False Fire at Will II
8:58:10 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will II Polaron Notus 493 False Fire at Will II
8:58:09 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will II Polaron Notus 555 False Fire at Will II
8:58:08 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will II Polaron Notus 518 False Fire at Will II
2606 / 5 = 521.2 / 0.725 (DR) = 719
FAW1 (732 listed / ~98.4%)
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
8:59:15 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 491 False Fire at Will I
8:59:14 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 444 False Fire at Will I
8:59:13 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 845 True Fire at Will I
8:59:13 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 532 False Fire at Will I
8:59:12 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 491 False Fire at Will I
First, the 845 Crit. Saraquael has 63.6% CrtD. So that hit would have been ~516. Using that 516 for the rest...
2474 / 5 = 494.8 / 0.725 = 682.5
So let's try FAW3 vs. FAW1 again.
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
9:12:49 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 548 False Fire at Will III
9:12:48 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 559 False Fire at Will III
9:12:47 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 555 False Fire at Will III
9:12:46 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 579 False Fire at Will III
9:12:45 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 594 False Fire at Will III
2835 / 5 = 567 / 0.725 = 782.1
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
9:13:15 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 525 False Fire at Will I
9:13:14 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 445 False Fire at Will I
9:13:13 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 485 False Fire at Will I
9:13:12 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 476 False Fire at Will I
9:13:12 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 519 False Fire at Will I
2450 / 5 = 490 / 0.725 = 675.9
Let's do it one more time!
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
9:15:45 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 514 False Fire at Will III
9:15:44 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 505 False Fire at Will III
9:15:43 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 521 False Fire at Will III
9:15:42 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 508 False Fire at Will III
9:15:41 AM Saraquael Polaron Beam Array: Fire at Will III Polaron Notus 526 False Fire at Will III
2574 / 5 = 514.8 / 0.725 = 710.1
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
9:16:08 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 524 False Fire at Will I
9:16:07 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 530 False Fire at Will I
9:16:06 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 473 False Fire at Will I
9:16:06 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 459 False Fire at Will I
9:16:05 AM Saraquael Beam Array: Fire at Will I Polaron Notus 509 False Fire at Will I
2495 / 5 = 499 / 0.725 = 688.3
Okay then, let's average all the FAW3 and FAW1...
FAW3: 7834 / 15 = 522.3 / 0.725 = 720.4
FAW1: 7419 / 15 = 494.6 / 0.725 = 682.2
FAW3...819.8 listed...720.4 average. ~87.9%
FAW1...732 listed...682.2 average. ~93.2%
720.4 vs. 682.2...~106%
Where this kind of started was with looking at the other guy I had been doing the testing with and looking at the numbers listed/parsed vs. STOwiki.
Prophet doesn't list ~103.9% for FAW2 for his R-Tets like Saraquael does for her normal Polarons. Prophet lists ~78% of non-FAW damage for FAW2 and parses ~80% non-FAW damage for the FAW2.
STOwiki lists a +25% DPS increase for FAW1. Let's look at how that would work with a bogus damage number (easier to work with, eh?...
Fake Array 500 DPV. With a 4/5 cycle, you're looking at 400 DPS. Adding the 5th shot to make it a 5/5 cycle, well - obviously your DPS = DPV...so 500 DPS. 500/400 = 1.25 = +25% DPS.
STOwiki lists a +6% additional (over the +25%) increase for FAW2.
Fake Array 500 DPV...400 DPS. 400 * 1.31 = 524 DPV. Around +4.8% DPV.
STOwiki lists a +12% additional (over the +25%) increase for FAW3.
Fake Array 500 DPV...400 DPS. 400 * 1.37 = 548 DPV. Around +9.6% DPV.
Going back to Saraquael's Polarons, well - we see the following again:
FAW3 ~110.2%, which is close to the +9.6% right?
FAW2 ~103.9%, which is close to the +4.8%, right?
FAW1 ~98.4%, which is close to the base 100%, right?
So - it looks like the STOwiki info is based off of the tooltips, eh?
Course, the parses for Saraquael's Polaron Array didn't quite match the tooltips did it? Heck, the first test - FAW3 did less than FAW1.
Then we've got Prophet and his R-Tet Array, where it's not following the same formula as the Polaron with Saraquael. With Prophet, it's more like this for a comparison to Saraquael...
Saraquael: Fake Array 500 DPV, 400 DPS, 4/5 Cycle. FAW +1 Shot, 5/5 Cycle, +500 Damage, 2500 Total Damage, etc, etc, etc.
Prophet: Fake Array 500 DPV, 400 DPS, 4/5 Cycle. FAW +1 Shot, 5/5 Cycle, +0 Damage, 2000 Total Damage, etc, etc, etc.
Saraquael's getting +25% DPS. Prophet's doing the same DPS, with each shot doing 80% DPV.
Let's grab one of Prophet's old normal Tetryon Arrays and look at the listed values...
R-Tet Array
No FAW 1110.8
FAW1 823.8 (~74.2%)
FAW2 869.9 (~78.3%)
FAW3 922.6 (~83.1%)
Tet Array
No FAW 1085.3
FAW1 804.6 (~74.1%)
FAW2 849.7 (~78.3%)
FAW3 901.2 (~83.0%)
Okay, how about if we grab some other Arrays? Let's look at Common Mk X versions of Phasers, Disruptors, Plasma, and Polaron!
Phaser
No FAW 817.3
FAW1 817.3 (100%)
FAW2 863.1 (105.6%)
FAW3 915.4 (112.0%)
Disruptor
No FAW 817.3
FAW1 817.3 (100%)
FAW2 863.1 (105.6%)
FAW3 915.4 (112.0%)
Plasma
No FAW 817.3
FAW1 817.3 (100%)
FAW2 863.1 (105.6%)
FAW3 915.4 (112.0%)
Polaron
No FAW 817.3
FAW1 817.3 (100%)
FAW2 863.1 (105.6%)
FAW3 915.4 (112.0%)
Yep, those all reflect the base info at STOwiki - so yeah, let's let that go with that. Let's look at Tetryon again though...a Common Mk X Tetryon (no consoles/no set).
Tetryon
No FAW 817.3
FAW1 613 (75.0%)
FAW2 647.3 (79.2%)
FAW3 686.6 (84.0%)
Tetryon is broken with FAW. Parsing suggests that FAW in general is broken with FAW1 able to hit harder than FAW3. DEM records 2 hits with FAW (again, to make this extremely clear - it's not 2 hits equal to a DEM hit without FAW - but it is 2 hits that hit for more than 1 hit - the posts are in this thread if you want to go look).
Again, my stuff in this thread and the other is not about the OP/UP discussion. It's just stuff that's broken (or broken, imho). The OP/UP stuff tends to be pointless, might as well be talking about cake vs. pie. It's subjective. That's why I prefer just looking at stuff to see if it's working as expected or not.
The Tric stuff? Wasn't about the damage - was about the chain crits. It wasn't making a roll for each - that's broken. The TIF debates? How many times did I repeat the same thing over and over about the thing that drove me crazy was the desync that usually led to restarting the client? Then the huge thank you to Cryptic when that didn't happen...followed by some perverse moments of flying into TIF because it wasn't causing me to desync anymore. Yeah, I complain about Feds being able to use TDF on a T'varo...because that just doesn't make sense to be able to use that console while cloaked - it just rubs my wee brain the wrong way. Does it create imbalance in the game? Sure, but there's all sorts of things like that between the factions that are still there. Besides, who doesn't see AA <---> TDF coming with a future lockbox? But man oh man, how does a cloaked vessel used a Tachyon Detection Field and remain cloaked? It screams broken at me.
So yeah...I don't care what folks really think about whether something is OP or UP. It's subjective. However, when there's things that just don't appear to match up with what's going on otherwise...where they actually look broken...well yeah, that's where I try to comment.
So again...
Tetryon is broken with FAW. Parsing suggests that FAW in general is broken with FAW1 able to hit harder than FAW3. DEM records 2 hits with FAW (again, to make this extremely clear - it's not 2 hits equal to a DEM hit without FAW - but it is 2 hits that hit for more than 1 hit - as well as just counting as 2 hits for the oodles of offensive/defensive procs in the game - the posts are in this thread if you want to go look).
...I can't see saying that FAW is working.
Question: I thot they fixed the bugs on FAW quite a while ago? Could this be the accuracy bug coming back?
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Haven't had hull all day lol.
What bugs me most is you get the extra proc chance doing it that way. Using tetryon, polaron, phasers, one gets a crazy amount of procs.
EDIT: another thing I noticed is you get the extra DEM hit with dual cannons and not dual heavy cannons. Does that go with single cannons and turrets also?
Good work. Please post these results in a new thread. I doubt any dev is reading this borderline troll thread.
Is it because the double tap was nerfed away, and people need to complain about something?
FAW and DEM have been outstanding in combination since the Temporal Lockbox was released. They have not gotten better somehow.
Anyway, you folks can continue whining now.
I am not sure how that interacts with procs... likely its more again.
You probably never made a FaW boat that can kill 5 people within 10 seconds have you? ^^
FaW was never ment to directly kill people one by one within seconds, yet builds are made that can do it ^^
BO was ment to do directed spike, but the FaW builds around these days you have like mini BO's going into all directions.
Edit: i forgot to mention the nukara 10% accuracy to all beams .
We really want to get to a game where there is no more coordination, just simple FaW spacebar spam? Just asking. What I think is not of any relevance.
The world changed the day I popped "pvp reptile" with my mighty BFAW2 + DEM3 Polaron onslaught! Lol!
RCK
This is the part that most concerns me. I dont even use a spacebar keybind on my BFAW ship, and its ridiculously easy to use as-is. (not to mention boring)
Its like putputzapzap, dont even have to turn. zap. id rather spin and circle and juke and jive on any of my scorts or brel... at least that feels like im DOING something. Even the scimitar cannon pve machine is more "fun" to fly. (mostly due to hysterical powerslides 20k past a target)
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