Was asked to check Stealth Detection on my toons...

virusdancer

No Buffs Used

Checked against...

The Von Amicus Stealth Detection Rating Formula: SDR = (Base SDR + (Base SDR/100) * Sensors) * (1 + 0.02 * (Aux power - 50)) + (ItemBonus * Sensors + Item%Bonus * 10000)
Base SDR is 60 for science vessels, 20 otherwise

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=12099901&postcount=48

(helpful to drop it in a spreadsheet where you can just enter the variables for quick checking)

Willard the Rat - Fleet T'varo
125 Aux
10 Sensors
55.0 Stealth Detection Rating 55 | +/- 0

Prophet - JHEC
118 Aux
36 Sensors
64.54 Stealth Detection Rating 64.192 | + 0.348

Geist - Marauder
115 Aux
64 Sensors
Jem Mk XI Deflector
191.75 Stealth Detection Rating 191.44 | + 0.31

Tselina - Mirror Vo'Quv
110 Aux
10 Sensors
145.86 Stealth Detection Rating 145.2 | + 0.66

Notus - K't'inga Retro
117 Aux
10 Sensors
Jem Mk XI Deflector
154.27 Stealth Detection Rating 153.98 | + 0.29

Plague - Chel Grett
112 Aux
10 Sensors
49.68 Stealth Detection Rating 49.28 | + 0.4

Zark - Nebula Retro
130 Aux
252 Sensors
Jem Mk XI Deflector
711.89 Stealth Detection Rating 712.12 | - 0.23

Saraquael - Assault
109 Aux
64 Sensors
Jem Mk XI Deflector
187.96 Stealth Detection Ratiing 187.504 | + 0.456

Boreas - Heavy Retro
121 Aux
10 Sensors
Jem Mk XI Deflector
156.04 Stealth Detection Rating 155.74 | + 0.3

So after checking the guys, I'm not seeing any difference between my Fed/KDF guys - they're all working out pretty damn close to the formula vonamicus put together.

ussultimatum

Here's my question for you,

My rough napkin math keeps telling me that max vs. max there is significantly more available Perception in the system then there is Stealth.


Am I incorrect?

What are the implications if I am correct?

virusdancer

Wish I could, but I've no idea how to calculate for the TDF and TDG. The way I thought to calc...doesn't work.

There's also so much broken regarding Stealth...there's the potential max and the broken max. Meh...

edit: Yeah, I thought I had it...for the TDG thing...adjusted Aux by 1 and it blew my mind, bah.

edit: But yeah, um, can answer that you're looking at 20km+ Perception over Stealth...can't give the exact, but at least that much when you compare Max to Max. Some of those are on short buffs, 8s, etc, etc, etc though.

masterkeychnk5

Honestly cloaks were a bit powerful, but as it stands now people can see you from 20km away and there is nothing to be done about it.

What Ulti said is right, there is alot more perception then you can have counters. If you do a easy comparison on Stealth skill tree value versus Sensors (Goes for consoles too) the Sensor seems alot more powerful then the counterpart per point.

Same goes for deflectors, where the 2% Stealth sight gives a massive amount of extra detection, the counterpart for that is a deflector that gives +30 to stealth, its like 10 times weaker lol.

Then there is sensor scan and the Nebula console that can be fit on any ship, again no real counterpart console that can somewhat reduce that again.


I'm sure people will adapt, but its only a matter of time before everyone uses it and the whole romulan faction has become useless again And let the QQn begin

Personally I'm not against this cloak detection stuff, but at least give us some value in stealth consoles or the tier 4 skill tree, some better deflectors perhaps and I dunno... There need to be counters, if its at the expense of alot of offensive consoles and my KHG 2 piece torp boost, I'm fine with that.

g0h4n4

Yeah I've noted that my T'varo is being deteced an awful lot more especially without the Tachyon grid.

Worryingly really and perhaps time to change ships.

khayuung

Oh so that's why I've been seeing all those cloaked warbirds from miles away on my Nebbie.

virusdancer

Can do that quick look at the basic stuff.

BASE
No Aux, No Skill, No Gear...just the BASE!

Perception: 5000
Stealth: 4925
Distance: 1.5km

+130 AUX

Perception: 5026 non-Sci / 5078 Sci
Stealth: 5055
Distance: 0km non-Sci / 0.46km Sci

+99 Sensors/Stealth

Perception: 5051.74 non-Sci / 5155.22 Sci
Stealth: 5104.5
Distance: 0km non-Sci / 1.0144km Sci

+Jem Mk XI Deflector

Perception: 5114.115 non-Sci / 5217.595 Sci
Stealth: 5104.5
Distance: 0.1923km non-Sci / 2.2619km Sci

+Astrophysicist

Perception: 5117.965 non-Sci / 5226.645 Sci
Stealth: 5104.5
Distance: 0.2693km non-Sci / 2.4429km Sci

+EPtA1
Perception: 5114.115 non-Sci / 5217.595 Sci
Stealth: 5104.5 (supposed to be +60 Stealth, unclear is Starship Stealth or Stealth Value - yet neither reflects any change)
Distance: 3.1923km non-Sci / 5.2619km Sci

I'm going to stop there, because basically what's up next is a Deflector which I'm not sure works for +Stealth or not (not sure if they ever fixed it, it was broken) and adding Sensors/Stealth Consoles...as well as additional +Sensors Gear, Sensor Scan, TDF, TDG, etc, etc, etc.

One might be thinking that outside of the broken EPtA1, that they're keep pace fairly well, eh?

Yep, those 99 points in Starship Stealth giving +49.5 Stealth Value...
Yep, those 99 points in Starship Sensors giving (@130 Aux) +25.74 Perception to the non-Sci and +77.22 Perception to the Sci...

Stealth is a fixed value: 1 Starship Stealth = 0.5 Stealth Value regardless of Aux.
The Stealth Detection Rating from Starship Sensors is variable as it contributes to Perception.

Starship Stealth only boosts Stealth.
Starship Sensors also reduces the duration of Jam/Scramble/etc.

So not only is the investment for a Sci better off the back, but they're also getting more out of the skill even when not looking for cloakers.

marc8219

Thanks, a lot more detailed then I asked lol but this helps. I think one of my characters may be bugged then, I'll have to equip and unequip stuff one at a time and play with my power settings more to be sure.

Also can you check Zark's SDR without the Jem deflector when you have the chance please?

virusdancer

marc8219 wrote: »

Also can you check Zark's SDR without the Jem deflector when you have the chance please?

Meh, had the wrong ship listed for him. Was a case I was looking at the Fleet Yamaguchi at the time...meh. He's in the regular Nebula Retro. Did you want it for him in an Ambassador Retro without the Jem?

Meh, here's a bunch of Zark stuff regardless (things are slotted for max SDR - yes, there's a quirk I've complained about where the order in which you slot things affects your SDR - it's annoying, have to do it too often...stupid recalc/calc bugs)...

Jem Zark, Nebula Retro
w/ Jem Mk XI Deflector
Aux: 130
Sensors: 252
Stealth Detection Rating: 711.89
Perception: 5355.945

Buffed Jem Zark, Nebula Retro
w/ Jem Mk XI Deflector, EPtA2, TDG, Scan3
Aux: 130
Sensors: 272
Stealth Detection Rating: 2237.63
Perception: 6318.815

No Jem Zark, Nebula Retro
w/ no +Sensors Deflector
Aux: 130
Sensors: 252
Stealth Detection Rating: 548.93
Perception: 5274.465

Buffed No Jem Zark, Nebula Retro
w/ no +Sensors Deflector, EPtA2, TDG, Scan3
Aux: 130
Sensors: 272
Stealth Detection Rating: 2074.66
Perception: 6237.33

Jem Zark, Ambassador Retro
w/ Jem Mk XI Deflector
Aux: 130
Sensors: 169
Stealth Detection Rating: 282.13
Perception: 5141.065

Buffed Jem Zark, Ambassador Retro
w/ Jem Mk XI Deflector, EPtA2, Scan3
Aux: 130
Sensors: 169
Stealth Detection Rating: 954.63
Perception: 5677.315

No Jem Zark, Ambassador Retro
w/ no +Sensors Deflector
Aux: 130
Sensors: 169
Stealth Detection Rating: 139.88
Perception: 5064.435

Buffed No Jem Zark, Ambassador Retro
w/ no +Sensors Deflector, EPtA2, Scan3
Aux: 130
Sensors: 169
Stealth Detection Rating: 812.38
Perception: 5606.19

marc8219

virusdancer wrote: »

Meh, had the wrong ship listed for him. Was a case I was looking at the Fleet Yamaguchi at the time...meh. He's in the regular Nebula Retro. Did you want it for him in an Ambassador Retro without the Jem?

either is fine. I am thinking the deflectors are giving a lot more SDR then the tooltip shows otherwise one of my characters is bugged maybe?

virusdancer

marc8219 wrote: »

either is fine. I am thinking the deflectors are giving a lot more SDR then the tooltip shows otherwise one of my characters is bugged maybe?

virusdancer wrote: »

The Von Amicus Stealth Detection Rating Formula: SDR = (Base SDR + (Base SDR/100) * Sensors) * (1 + 0.02 * (Aux power - 50)) + (ItemBonus * Sensors + Item%Bonus * 10000)
Base SDR is 60 for science vessels, 20 otherwise

Yeah, the bonus from the Jem Deflector is the latter part of that formula...

(ItemBonus * Sensors + Item%Bonus * 10000)

ItemBonus for the Jem Mk XI is 0.25...
Item%Bonus for the Jem Mk XI is 0.01...

The 1% that it lists is the bonus if you don't have any Sensors skill. The second part of the part in bold orange.

0.01 * 10000 = 100 SDR
100/10000 = 0.01 + 1 = 1.01 * 5000 = 5050
50/5000 = 0.01 = 1%

But there's also going to be whatever your Starship Sensors skill is multiplied by 0.25...you get 1/4 of your Sensors skill in addition to the +100 SDR.

So guys with different amounts of Sensors will get different bonuses from the Jem Deflectors.

marc8219

ok that's it I think, thanks. THe jem deflector tooltip needs to be fixed then. I also think the rom deflector works like this.

snoge00f

g0h4n4 wrote: »

Yeah I've noted that my T'varo is being deteced an awful lot more especially without the Tachyon grid.

Worryingly really and perhaps time to change ships.

Time to grind EC and slot Reman Sup Infs at the cost of crit chance.

virusdancer

marc8219 wrote: »

ok that's it I think, thanks. THe jem deflector tooltip needs to be fixed then. I also think the rom deflector works like this.

If they're consistent, then it should. So it would be akin to the Jem Mk XII with different skill boosts.

Wish I could figure out how the TDG works (TDF likely works the same)...but like I mentioned earlier, going from 129 to 130 totally threw off what I thought it was - meh.

snoge00f wrote: »

Time to grind EC and slot Reman Sup Infs at the cost of crit chance.

Have to figure they're going to do the same to Infil as Sub. Thing will be having Sub and Infil stack - at least one of each - since the Remans have both, would be silly if Infil and Sub didn't. Then there's the Captain Infil...should that stack with BOFF Infil? I think so...oh well, will have to see. Who knows - they borked the +Def on them, and man oh man - I'm feeling that.

ilhansk

FYI,

with toys it is possible to push SDR beyond >2.700


Against a decently geared Romulan, that translates into roughly 25km detection range burst for 20 seconds (then 70 seconds CD).

But running a maxed out Snooper like that has a such a hefty opportunity cost attached to it, it would get eaten alive by any decent opposition. So those high perception ratings are rather only academic figures. In high-level PVP, Snoopers need to tone down their detection abilities, so that they do not become a liability for the rest of the team.

Amongst other things I run a couple of cloakers, and in my assesment cloakers are still a bit overpowered. Good players in cloaked ships still have the advantage. Nerfing stealth detection would be a step into the wrong direction.

ussultimatum

ilhansk wrote: »

Against a decently geared Romulan, that translates into roughly 25km detection range burst for 20 seconds (then 70 seconds CD).

But running a maxed out Snooper like that has a such a hefty opportunity cost attached to it, it would get eaten alive by any decent opposition. So those high perception ratings are rather only academic figures. In high-level PVP, Snoopers need to tone down their detection abilities, so that they do not become a liability for the rest of the team.

Amongst other things I run a couple of cloakers, and in my assesment cloakers are still a bit overpowered. Good players in cloaked ships still have the advantage. Nerfing stealth detection would be a step into the wrong direction.

25 KM spot that can be followed with chasing down and auto-hit torpedo spread that, to my knowledge, can still be "double tapped" even though it was supposed to be fixed is equally overpowered.

Even if the snooper needs to "tone it down" - what are we talking? 15km or 10km effective range to spot?

That still seems a rather far distance to be able to nullify cloak, while also being able to use auto-hit torpedo spreads that nullify Defense.


Both ends of the system could use an overhaul, I doubt we'll get one.

khayuung

Er... I'm confused.

So let's say I have 0 in Sensors, in a Kar'fi (is it a science ship?), have EPtA1 running 24/7, 130 Aux power, at what distance can I:

1) perceive a target? (Enemy at X distance)
2) resolve a target (Enemy becomes Named)
3) detect a stealthed target? (See translucent ships)

ilhansk

Even Torp Spreads do have a limit of effective reach and a 25 km Snooper sounds good on paper, but is of no use if it dies so fast that it becomes a points feeder for the other team.

In the past, Cloakers were spoiled by being able to sit on top of their kill target at 0.0km distance and still impossible of getting spotted, and that was silly to begin with.

A 10km detection sphere for a 20 seconds duration is reasonable. Good Vapers are able to adapt, stay out of reach and they would still be able to score kills.

doomicile

I'm glad it wasn't just me then. I'll admit cloak was a little too powerful with the stacking Subterfuge bonus to stealth but in a handful of matches after patch, cloak is all but worthless now.

I even have 6 points in the Stealth Skill, putting me at around +256 to stealth and around +5.66k to stealth while cloaked and I was still getting spotted plain as day and chased from 15km away and getting VM'd, TB'd, Singularity Jumped and all around just taking focus fire from the entire team. Some of these weren't even Science ships that were spotting me.

virusdancer

khayuung wrote: »

Er... I'm confused.

So let's say I have 0 in Sensors, in a Kar'fi (is it a science ship?), have EPtA1 running 24/7, 130 Aux power, at what distance can I:

1) perceive a target? (Enemy at X distance)
2) resolve a target (Enemy becomes Named)
3) detect a stealthed target? (See translucent ships)

Can partially answer that, but I can't remember if the Kar'Fi is considered Sci or not (that BOFF seating has always kept me from getting it - if that Ens had been Uni - oh well)...

non-Sci: 52 SDR/5026 Perception
Sci: 156 SDR/5078 Perception

EPtA1 by adding 3km to that...adds 150 Perception. 5176 or 5228 Perception.

Subtract the enemies Stealth Value and divide by 50 to get the viewable distance in km.

The "standard" Stealth Value is 4975 (4925 Stealth + 50 Stealth from 50 Aux).

5176 - 4975 = 201 / 50 = 4.02km
5228 - 4975 = 253 / 50 = 5.06km

virusdancer

ilhansk wrote: »

Even Torp Spreads do have a limit of effective reach and a 25 km Snooper sounds good on paper, but is of no use if it dies so fast that it becomes a points feeder for the other team.

Just a paper build, not a recommendation - suggestion, just a purely speculative build.

Fleet Nebula w/ Alien Sci Captain

Traits - Conservation of Energy, Photonic Capacitor, Accurate, Astrophysicist, Efficient Captain, Elusive, Inspirational Leader, Techie, Warp Theorist

Reputation
New Rom - Enhanced Shield Systems, Emergency Secondary Shielding, Quantum Singularity Manipulation
Nukara - Fortified Hull, Auxiliary Power Configuration - Defense, Refracting Tetryon Cascade
Omega - Hull-Repairing Nanites, Superior Shield Repair

TT1, TS1
EPtA1, AtS1, EWP1
EPtS1, RSP1
ST1, HE2, VM1, GW3
JS1

(5x Human BOFFs)

DOFFs - 2x DCE(EPtX), WCE(Cleanse), SE(VM+), GS(GW+)

Deflector - Romulan Advanced Mk XII
Engine - AMACO Mk XII
Shields - AMACO Mk XII
Core - Elite Fleet Reinforced Mk XII [SEP][W->S][SCap][AMP][SST]

Weapons
Fore - Chron DBA, 2x Chron Torp Mk XII [Acc]x3
Aft - Temporal Disruption, Chron Torp Mk XII [Acc]x3, Chron Mine Mk XII [Whatever]

Consoles
Tac - Tachyon Detection Field, Tachyon Detection Grid
Eng - Ionized Gas Sensors, Tachyo, 2x E-Neut Mk XII [+HullRep]
Sci - 2x Rom Sensors Mk XII [-Th][ShH], 2x Rom Sensors Mk XII [-Th][HuH]

Devices - RMC, SFM, Eng Batt

Other - Nimbus Pirate Distress Call

Aux: 130

Sensors: 289.5
9 Starship Sensors +99
Tachyon Detection Field (Passive) +11
Tachyon Detection Grid (Passive) +22.9
Ionized Gas Sensors (Passive) +19
4x Rom Sensors Mk XII +127.6
Astrophysicist +10

Base SDR/Perception: 879.995/5589.9975 (Rom Deflector & EPtA1)

5589.9975 Perception vs. "Standard" Cloak (4975) = 12.29995km Perception Distance
vs. 6 Starship Stealth, 130 Aux (5097) = 9.85995km Perception Distance

That's always on.

/w Sensor Scan 3...
SDR - 1853.745
Perception - 6076.8725

vs. "Standard" (4975) = 22.03745km Perception Distance
vs. 6 Starship Stealth, 130 Aux (5097) = 19.59745km Perception Distance

That's 20 seconds every 1 minute 30 seconds (inclusive/concurrent CD to duration...20s up, 1m10s down).

That's not with the +30 Sensors from Inspirational Leader, not with the +100 Sensors from Quantum Singularity Manipulation, nor with the active +Sensors from TDF/TDG or the +StealthSight boosts from either console (still not sure on the calculation for those - Diet Pepsi is no substitute for Diet Dew...meh, braincells asleep).

ussultimatum

ilhansk wrote: »

In the past, Cloakers were spoiled by being able to sit on top of their kill target at 0.0km distance and still impossible of getting spotted, and that was silly to begin with.

I agree.

ilhansk wrote: »

A 10km detection sphere for a 20 seconds duration is reasonable. Good Vapers are able to adapt, stay out of reach and they would still be able to score kills.

I agree, but it depends.

If its 20s out of every 3 minutes, that seems reasonable (assuming TDF).

However there are methods of spiking your perception on much faster cycles, there are deflectors and pets with passive stealth-sight and no matter how any of us want to feel about it, auto-hit torp spread is a broken mechanic.


So as I said, both sides of the system need an overhaul.

virusdancer

Something to keep in mind, mind you...is how much can be done to deal with Cloakers that doesn't require a dedicated Snooper in the least.

AtB some of that up. But, but, but...what about the Aux? It's not about the "primary" effect, it's about what it does to Cloak. 1 Aux or 130 Aux, that aspect is the same.

Most of the Sci stuff is 100% to-hit, doesn't matter if they have a bazillion defense and you've only got a 25% to-hit with your weapons...the Sci stuff is still 100% to-hit.

There some fool blipper out there? Keybind a target for them and smack them silly. Got a Macro Keyboard/Mouse...yeah, guess what you can do, eh?

With Willard, I die far more often to persistent groups of non-Snoopers than vs. anybody with a Snooper (I just SNB/VM Snoopers). Folks that have me targeted when I blip before I even know I've blipped, folks that are dropping CPB, dropping tractors, dropping VMs, dropping Grav Wells, dropping Singularities, etc, etc, etc...

Things are heavily stacked against the Cloaker, but they have a pretty big advantage because of the following:

1) Player ignorance of what they could try to do
2) Players not wanting to bother trying to do anything
3) Players thinking they shouldn't have to bother trying to do anything

virusdancer

As an aside of sorts, just want to offer a clarification for folks regarding those bonuses to Stealth from the BOFFs. Those aren't bonuses to Stealth Value, they're bonuses to Starship Stealth. Again, 1 Starship Stealth = 0.5 Stealth Value. So you're getting half the bonus listed to your actual Stealth. +150 Stealth from a BOFF isn't giving them 3km of Stealth, it's giving them 1.5km of Stealth.

EPtA1 not only gives the +3km of Perception, but there's also the boost to Aux which requires a recalculation of the SDR. But hey, EPtA1 boosts Stealth too! Well, the Aux part...but I haven't seen the listed Stealth boost work - it neither shows up as a boost to Starship Stealth nor as a boost to the Stealth Value if you hover over the cloak.

So yeah, somebody having a Reman Captain with 5x Reman Sub/Sup Infil BOFFs had a bonus of +1950 Starship Stealth or +975 Stealth Value or -19.5km of Perception Distance.

Yeah, that's bad. Thus the reason that Sub's +Stealth shouldn't stack (which was done in March, broken at some point after LoR, and just fixed again). Course, I can't test (don't have any Reman BOFFs) - but if Infil still stacks, you're still looking at 1350/675/-13.5km...

That's still bad, no?

Reman Captain + highest Sub + highest Infil...550/275/-5.5km.

That's what I think is fine. Some will probably argue it's too much. Have to consider that it's a trade-off though, going Reman instead of Romulan as well as slotting the Reman BOFF instead of another Romulan. And there's still that EPtA1 reducing that -5.5km to less than -2.5km. Then add in everything else going on - everything else that gives either the Snooper or the non-Cloaker the advantage...and yeah, you've got a game going on.

Otherwise, well...why bother cloaking? And honestly, imho, that goes back to one of the three things I mentioned in the previous post. Some folks would be perfectly fine if there was no cloaking - they'd be perfectly fine if STO was little more than an updated version of Combat from the Atari 2600....

ilhansk

virusdancer wrote: »

...but they have a pretty big advantage because of the following:

1) Player ignorance of what they could try to do
2) Players not wanting to bother trying to do anything
3) Players thinking they shouldn't have to bother trying to do anything

sadly you just described 70% of the PVP playerbase.

virusdancer wrote: »

Then add in everything else going on - everything else that gives either the Snooper or the non-Cloaker the advantage...and yeah, you've got a game going on.

Seconded, the meta has changed.

I agree with you Ulti that the system could need an overhaul, yes. Both the offensive AND the defensive tactics.

Since I play offensive cloakers and defensive snoopers, I can say from experience that succefull and effective snooping is WAY more difficult to pull off than utilizing cloak mechanics for offensives purposes. Until recently, cloak detection was more or less a joke. Some of the recent changes made cloak detection a bit more viable, which is IMO good for the balance of the game.

The community will learn and adapt.