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Question about Quad Plasmas
royalsovereign
Member Posts: 1,344 Arc User
OK, I've never played around with quads much. I don't generally spend much real money on Zen, and don't grind ceaselessly or dil (and can't seem to wrap my head around exchanging it for zen anyways). Never got around to buying a Sao Paolo or the BoP with quads. So I am just now paying some attention to them, and have a question about the quad plasma cannons.
The 'in-the-know' players seem to dismiss the quad plasmas, mainly because of the engine power drain compounding with the lower Warbird power levels. So do the quads pull *both* weapon power and engine power when firing? Do they benefit from weapon power levels at all? Or do they function best with the engine power turned up to 11?
This is probably a crazy idea but would it be feasible to do a torp + quads build and run with weapon power flatlined, putting max power to engines? Obviously wouldn't want to use the Focused Singularity Beam with that since I assume the minimal weapon power would make that weapon ineffective.
OK, donning asbestos undies, feel free to tell me what a stupid idea this is.
The 'in-the-know' players seem to dismiss the quad plasmas, mainly because of the engine power drain compounding with the lower Warbird power levels. So do the quads pull *both* weapon power and engine power when firing? Do they benefit from weapon power levels at all? Or do they function best with the engine power turned up to 11?
This is probably a crazy idea but would it be feasible to do a torp + quads build and run with weapon power flatlined, putting max power to engines? Obviously wouldn't want to use the Focused Singularity Beam with that since I assume the minimal weapon power would make that weapon ineffective.
OK, donning asbestos undies, feel free to tell me what a stupid idea this is.
"You Iconians just hung a vacancy sign on your asses and my foot's looking for a room!"
--Red Annorax
--Red Annorax
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I run with the quads and dual heavy cannons forward, along with two forward plasma torpedo launchers set to autofire for some energy-free damage output, and two turrets on the back.
The Focused Singularity Beam shouldn't be effected by weapon power, only plasma damage consoles and energy weapon skills, while consuming your Singularity Charge.
Combine that with the drains to both Weapon & Engine Subsystem Power
If you have the luxury of easily presenting narrow arc weapons and wish to use cannons, DHCs are the best and infinitely superior to Quad Cannons.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
What he said. It's not so much the power drain from engines, it's the fact they have [Dmg]x4, which is arguably the worst modifier in the game. Mind you, it isn't necessarily a bad modifier -- but compared to [Acc] which is there to actually hit a target (you deal 0 damage to a target you miss, and is subsequently useful for hitting small ships and destructable projectiles, and if the defense is overcome completely by accuracy (such as a stationary target), the accuracy spills over into critical severity), [CrtH] which increases the amount of crits you have, or [CrtD] which affects just how much punch your critical hits end up dealing, [Dmg] is kind of weak.
I do use weapons with [Dmg] modifiers, but I also don't pvp, and they all have [Acc] on them somewhere, and generally more than just one modifier.
Furthermore, weapons that level up with you only go up to Mk X quality. So your Quad Plasma cannons (and Phaser quad cannons and Disruptor quad cannons) are actually only Mk X when you're at Vice Admiral level. If you want proof, grab one of those Blue retrofit phaser beam arrays that level up with you, and then buy from the exchange a Blue Mk X phaser beam array with the same modifiers (if it has any, I don't remember). Equip both to your ship (to take into account the actual stats given your character's specific traits and skills), and you will see them perfectly identical.
This is slightly deceptive with the Quad Cannons because without the [Dmg]x4 modifier, you wouldn't even know they were at Mk X quality, because the [Dmg] bonus would put them on par with similar Mk XII cannons at Vice Admiral level, which is likely intentional.
This gives Cryptic the opportunity to sell cannons for money (or rather zen) which are on par with weapon received in-game, without actually being better than other weapons received in-game (which are in actuality much better), and thus would not be pay-to-win... since as previously established, the Quad Cannons are novelty items. They aren't all that great. [Miss]x4, drains engine power, and has the illusion of being higher level than it actually is.
If someone wants to prove me wrong, please show me the maths and I will humbly accept that I am wrong. Personal conjecture does not count.
Try it. See how your ship handles with the Quads. Fly around at different throttle levels, different ENG power levels. Now remove the Quads and fight with regular Cannons / DCs / DHCs. You will notice a difference in handling when you start firing. You move a bit faster, turn a bit better. Look up your bonus defense. All other weapons, beams, non-quad cannons, torps, will not bleed your speed down as you fight due to ENG power drains.
I've been using the quads for a few days, and I rather enjoy them. I was just trying to get a better grip on how the actual mechanics of the engine power drain works. I'm also around level 42 on this character, and I don't go out and buy all purple weapons - I just equip what drops for the most part. So the quads, while not optimal, are still better than the green MkVIII DHCs I would probably be running in their place.
As for speed, I'm slowly getting away from always setting things on Full Defense, but I'm nowhere near firewalling the throttle - I'd probably never hit anything if I did that.
--Red Annorax
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
This isn't a PVE vs PVP issue with these weapons. Defense is defense. Hitting power is hitting power. Accuracy is accuracy. Subsystem power is subsystem power.
This has everything to do with how bad ALL Quad Cannons suck compared to practically any other weapon out there.
You can be using much, much better DHCs, or doing the good 'ol Dual Beam Banks + Beam Overload, or anything else, and not slam your Subsystem Power, speed, maneuverability, and your defenses all at the same time from a weapon that is less accurate, hits less crits, and even if it does crit, the damage from said crits are smaller.
You are better off with Common quality Mk XI DHCs.
Peacekeeper High Command
Scorpius - Zelbinion Mk II
(sits back and awaits the inevatable abuse and commenst saying how awfully wrong I am)
There is also the reasoning that due to the firing cycles DC will proc more than DHC but meh maybe maybe not.
running atm: Plasma DHC x2, Plasma Quads, Bio-Molecular warhead, and Caustic Plasma turrets x3 on the retrofit carrier with the singularity console working great as far as the Elachi are concerned, not noticing much if any power drain running a Fleet Hyper-Stabilized Singularity core (bonus to shields and engines). ymmv though
Flying backwards drains power from all systems. So less speed & Defense, less damage, less shield resist and less Aux based heals.
Flying in guns blazing (CRF/CSV) and flying out when it ends and turning around within the 5s downtime and 5k range is a superior tactic IMO.
Also most PVE enemies should die in a single pass outside of group activities.
Sorry for not abusing you. I'm sure somebody will come along and be a jerk.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
I like the quads, and I plan on using them for awhile. The purpose of this thread was to make sure I was using what I have effectively. Don't misunderstand me, I get where you're coming from, it just isn't important to my current playstyle. Eventually I'll hit 50, and maybe someday I'll actually do some of the STF content. But I don't see it happening soon.
Hmm, guess I'll go back to that all-turret rainbow build I was considering.
--Red Annorax
I was always told that you cant do attack runs (my prefered tactic) with cannons as you significantly reduce your dps output, if this is incorrect I will be glad as I much prefer to do attack runs and hit and fade atacks than cannon boating , the only issue arrises when providing static defence of a target in a stf such as the gate on khitomer or the kang on cure, i generaly remail still or move back and forth.
The quad cannons are just fine... no problem with them at all.
PvE is so easy these days that a decent player can do well in a free ship with free gear from missions.
Fly what you want to fly... use what you want to use... it's not the ship or the gear, but the skill and understanding of play that matters.
Take away the DOFFs, 10-console superships, universal toys and fleet gear... most of the so-called "elite" players wouldn't know what to do.
I really am against this mentality of guarding the Gate in KASE means parking and opening fire when something spawns.
After killing the Probes I go help DPS the Transformers, using Evasive Manuvers to get back to the probes. With Battle Cloak I can get multiple decloak bonuses.
With the Kang I prefer to kill the BoPs side on and as close to their cubes as possible.
Never missed a probe or let something through on the Kang.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
You yourself gave the reasons why the Quad Cannon mediocrity is not just a PVP issue.
There are places in this game where it's not simple multiplayer cooperation like STFs / ESTFs. It is about competitive results. Results where how much damage you deal during the mission is compared to other players. Fed "Starbase 24" and KDF "Federation Minefield" come immediately to mind. They are limited, yes, but many people do dive into there, esp. Fed side with SB24.
In such a case, even a Common DHC at Mk X-XI has the upper hand in competitiveness over the Quad Cannons. That Common quality DHC will:
* Have an inherent +10% CritD damage bonus, which adds up after a while with Tacs & Escorts blazing away. This mod is naturally found in ALL DHCs.
* Not drain your ENG Subsystem Power, allowing faster speeds (and higher bonus defense), better turn rates, all allowing you to be better protected and swing your weapons on target that much faster to blaze away again.
And that's for a Common Quality DHC. If you throw even an Uncommon DHC with either Acc (more hits on target), CritH (higher chance for Critical hits), CritD (higher Critical Damage bonus, on top of the inherent DHC CritD+10%). PVP may highly prefer Acc over everything, but in PVE, ANY of these mods in any number are far, far, FAR superior than the [Dmg] mods, which are found in x4 on all Quad Cannons.
And it gets even worse if you compare Quad Cannons to Rare & Very Rare quality DHCs.
You may scoff at Min/Maxing, but if you enter instances where you are competing against other players, even in the same side, with everything else being equal (including player skill), your Quad Cannons will leave you in a less competitive state.
If you don't care about winning against the competition, then by all means, do go on with the Quad Cannons. If you DO care about winning against the competition (again, not necessarily PVP), then you need to avoid Quad Cannons... because winning gets you the better rewards.
If you can kill your target in 5 seconds with other weapons compared to 10 seconds with the Quads (as you say), then you can quickly turn to another target(s) and apply that faster killing speed. A faster killing speed that other weapons will do than any Quad Cannon.
Sure we would know what to do without the big toys you mention. If we know the game well enough to build a good ship and be successful in PVP and / or PVE with it, then you know how to build it with "just the basics."
Small quibble:
Flying backwards for too long drains power from all systems.
the drain doesn't kick in right away, and it is possible to do the couple seconds forward, couple seconds backward dance with no power drain.
No opinion on which is better, just that it is possible.
That is completely irrelevant to me. I don't ever play with anyone else. I've been here a year or so and have never teamed with anyone. This is mainly because my playtime is extremely limited - I have to be able to bail at a moment's notice, and I do not like bailing out on a team. So no, for *me* it is never ever about competitive results. It is always about enjoying myself in something that somewhat resembles the Star Trek universe in the precious moments I can spare.
I'm not scoffing. It simply is not relevant to my playstyle or to my initial question.
Other players obviously enjoy min/maxing, making the best build they can, competing against one another, and so on. And it's great that they can do that here and enjoy themselves. I have exactly zero problems with that. It's just not for me. Will that ever change? I don't know - if that becomes important to me, the quads go in the trash bin. Well, OK, probably at that point the quads would be stuck on the Ar'kala in my 'mothballs' stack and I'd be flying something more endgame-worthy, but you get the gist.
Thanks.
--Red Annorax
'Well Stofsk, that's nice and all, but the plural for anecdote is not data. You obviously were teamed with noobs/scrubs/idiots/bad people so who cares what you think.' Ah ah ah, perhaps so, but all I'm saying is that quad phasers allow you to be competitive in those environments. I'm sure the times I've lost 1st place have been to people running full DHCs and probably using Elachi weapons too, and probably Scimitars with 5 forward weapons and 5 tac consoles to my regular Defiant's 4. In which case... I'm outclassed in more ways than one and I could have slotted a phaser DHC in the quad's place and I still wouldn't have won 1st place if that's the kind of ship and gear setup I'm competing against. Yet I have gotten 1st place, so it's obviously possible to do so using quad cannons - which means they remain competitive, if not optimal, since it's impossible for all things to be completely equal when you have random people flying random ships with random builds.
Yeah but all other things being equal the DHCs and quad phasers will crit about the same amount of times if the DHCs don't have any [acc] or [CrtH] modifiers (which they won't since you've mandated they be commons). Meanwhile for all those times neither weapon crits, the quad cannons are doing more damage.
The whole 'zomg -10 engine power per shot OHMYGOSH SO SLOWWW' thing is so overstated. Good thing I've got a hyper-injection warp core?
Maybe this is far more important for PVP, but the guy you're talking to and the examples you've given for PVE content makes this point moot. The fact of the matter is this: you can use quad cannons in PVE and not be gimping yourself.
You're overselling it. In PVE, any mod is better than [Dmg] mods, but saying that they are far, far, FAR superior makes it sound like using any gear with [Dmg] is somehow counterproductive. The reality is any mod on any quality gear item, including no mod on common gear, is more than adequate enough for PVE.
I reiterate what I said above, I use quad phasers on my tac captain and have gotten first place in those 'competitive' PVE things.
Now, just so you don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that [Dmg] is a sucky mod. I'd much rather trade that [dmg]x4 for [CrtD]x4. Change that, and I bet all of you will slot in a quad cannon.
While Common Quality DHCs all have, at the bare minimum +10% CritD.
Yes, both Quad Cannons and Common Quality DHCs will crit at the same rate. But when the DHCs do Crit, they will hit harder, thanks to the inherent +10% CritD.
The fact that we are able to favorably compare a Common quality weapon to Quads should be alarming
And I still stand that comparable weapons with mods any other than the Quads' [dmg]x4 are much superior. If one cannot see the benefits of a weapon that has a combination of hitting more, critting more, critting harder, while not impacting your Subsystem Power (and maneuverabiliy, AND bonus defense) as much... then I dunno.
HITTING MORE? Critting more? Have you seen how many rounds the quads fire compared to the DHC? Im afraid you have your facts wrong Warmaker. If you have good crit as you should in a rom ship, then the amount of crits you get with quads is significant and you must be smoking your mousemat if you think a DHC hits more than the quads. Yes Heavies do more damage and crit higher, but they have such a slow rotation.
I bet you don't even own quads, so how can you gob off so much?
I think they are good, and my Ar'kif does heinous damage. One of the other main reasons to emply the quads is the 2 set bonus from them and the console gives you extra plasma damage AND +30 in energy weapon specialisation, which i am sure you know is a final tier skill and thus very expensive to spec into. The quads are good. Not great, but good.
You need to prove that this is true. For instance, in space, my Adv Fleet Plasma DHC's have a lower DPS value than my quads. That's just for example. You'd actually need to see the entire ACC/CritH/CritD/DAM profile and have a firm grip on the targets defense to make any real calculations. Except actually we don't because of the set bonus. But why be sloppy?
I'm not sure that you understand min/maxing. I believe you are confusing it with stacking. Actual min/maxing is a bit more involved. (Again just for sake of not being sloppy. We don't actually need to do much calculating here.)
For instance Damage Mods. Those contribute to every hit you make. Everyone of them. Including your crit damage. I think you're overlooking that aspect of that mod. (Still doesn't matter, but still let us be tidy!)
Plus Quads boost all plasma energy damage. It increases weapons training. Therefore all incremental damage added by my quad bonus is a direct result of mounting them. So at LEAST plus ten percent to all energy weapon output. Just assuming 2 additional fore mounted energy weapons, whatever they may be, that is an additional 20% of...something.
I'm not sure what that something is, but I think 20% of it would be significant. I mean tooltip shows the quads as being greater in DPS than the DHC's. So it is hard to think they actually perform at LESS than 80% of a DHC.
Anyway, outside of the set bonus, you should never mix quads with DHC's. So in that aspect correct. Quads will significantly lower burst and overall damage done without the set bonus. Ideally they should be used with DC's and the set bonus.
Cheers and all that rot.:D
Peacekeeper High Command
Scorpius - Zelbinion Mk II
It's just the simple presence of what the other mods do for attacks compared to simple damage mods. Yes, Dmg mods increase the base dmg of everything. However:
Accuracy - Increase likeliness of hitting. This is of course, as you know, more of a PVP issue, but more hits = more damage landing. Even in PVE for instance, I hate it when my Beam Overload 3 misses :mad:
CritH - Increase likeliness of Critical Hits occurring, to score the big damage numbers we all love so much.
CritD - When Critical Hits occur, this increases the magnitude of the damage done. What's great is that DHCs have an inherent +10% CritD to them, something Quads don't.
If we're going PVE only, CritH and CritD, alone on even a Green, Uncommon quality DHC already gives an advantage. You will either be more likely to hit the Criticals, or make your Criticals hit that much harder, and even more so with a DHC with CritD mods (on top of the inherent CritD trait that all DHCs have). It only gets worse once you start throwing in Rare and Very Rare weapons, then you can have better combinations of Acc, CritH, CritD.
And again, non Quad weapons do not affect your Subsystem Power in the double fashion that Quads do. With non Quads, you can hit just as hard, or harder, and still keep all your Engine Subsystem Power, keeping all your desired speed and turn rates.