test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
fair warning
jjgrands420
Member Posts: 135 Arc User
must give fair warning or it doesnt feel right. decloak alpha isnt fair. this will make cloakers have to stay aroudn after the fight.
the end of the game as i know it. the end of the game. twas fun at times but always trying.
so remember before u snb to tell them fair warning
remember before u log off forever fair warning
the end of the game as i know it. the end of the game. twas fun at times but always trying.
so remember before u snb to tell them fair warning
remember before u log off forever fair warning
Post edited by jjgrands420 on
0
Comments
the instant kill has been called out by a dev. he said dying in 3 seconds isnt fair. as if it took that long. sorry man the moth seen the light go out, laters
The problem is if he nerfs spike further then this beam overload thing nobody will be able to kill each other anymore
NOTHING IS EVER DEAD!! besides soon we get lobi and p2w TRIBBLE buffs again to compensate for the beam overload loss. simple as that. 6 front weaponslots, 6 tac slots
new beam overload console. you name it.
if you guys stop arguing with me over nerfing epte people wont be able to run away as much and we will still be able to kill people.
If it normally took 30 seconds to kill someone in one-on-one combat where neither participant was cloaked, but starting in cloak made it take 22 seconds instead, that might be fair. If the enemy ship ran high aux and found you before you decloaked, and could then kill you in 22 seconds instead of in 30, that might also be fair.
Stealth can be awesome and powerful and still have counterplay. Keep in mind I'm also talking about high-level ideals, not actual planned changes to the game - just discussing gameplay in general.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
For the last year or so I run decloak and hang... using my recloak more to confuse then to escape.
Honestly Mini... this change won't effect you that much if you roll with it. So you can't double tap... who cares. You can still overload and dump a HY into a target. Combine it with the right sci skills and it should be as effective as it once was.
I'm not a fan of the mutliple overload strikes... and honestly Multiple HY/Spread patterns haven't been my stradagy on my torp boats for a long time now. Last time I relied on stacked HY patterns was back when CPB and Tachyon worked.
theres several way to deal with cloaks too. most little things can decloak someone. anything will decloak a non battlecloak, and if you see some one battlecloak, and in pvp you will see this constantly now, get within 5 and use CPB! tada, they arent getting away now. a TB when you see someone cloaking works too. spec high into sensors, and you can apparently still see them even with stacked rom boffs
rom's ability to kill, and kill quick, and do it 'fairly' is very impressive. so much so that it tottaly leaves the kdf and fed behind. thats mostly due to the boffs, the kdf and fed need boffs as good to, that cater more to thier play style. thread with a compleat detailing of that is in my sig
I can see where you are coming from. But some ships such as those run by Mini, are designed around this principle, even my ships are capable of the same task, using different methods. I remember Mini used to do this with one BO, which I would imagine he will do again. However, seeing the current mechanics a skilled player will always be able to destroy a new player in seconds. Even Developers that might not PvP so much can still be killed almost instantly if they are unprepared or not paying attention. That being said..
The current methods of cloak detection are far weaker then needed to allow for counter cloak builds at this time. If you wanted to nerf that type of gameplay, rather then making the attack its self weaker, you could enhance the ability for science ships to prevent or deter such an attack. Just my opinion, as even a maxed science deteting ship with full Aux at 130, Emergency power to Aux, Tachyon Detection Grid, Sensor Scan, and 4 Very rare Mk XII Sensor Probe consoles... not mention a Deflector with Sens x3 providing 40+ additional Sensors, can only Detect a cloaked ship at about 6k. Perhaps that needs to change.
the 30 seconds u have to wait before attacking dont count? what about the fact that your team was shooting them for the first 15, and they used their buffs up, then u got the window open to strike?
franky it is simply disturbing a panacea end all to a tactic existing form beta, talked about in beta, and kept for 3 years comes out of no where, from a very seemingly uninformed person.
do u realzie that this same player will die in 1 second to almost anything in the game? dying in 1 second and killing in 1 second is what made his game fun for me. whther it happened every time or 1 in 100. until i get some kind of recognition of the validity of the attempted one shot, im gone. and i think u will fidn attemptign to nerf the extreme one shot is an uphill battle. as snb, target shields. x y or z is just going to precede them dying.
since when was 1v1 balance even relevant....
the fact of the matter is people like me have been amping damage and spike since day to break heavily hardened and healed players.
youre basically saying "you have gone too far" when i havent even maxed out. lets talk real numbers talk real potential spike, whats the maximum instant damage that you should be able to get one someone from a single ship? alot more than you think
and the FACT OF THE MATTER IS THE BATTLE IS DECIDED IN A MOMENT OF THE WHOLE ENCOUNTER! if it takes HOURS there is but one instant when u lost. such a limited conceptual understanding of the game as i see it is just baffling.
i cant believe u are even mentioning one on one combat. its like finally i am free of this idiocy now, every time i look back i see pillars of salt
its about principle. the attacks on my playstyle end here. the line is drawn, and just like when my playstyle was ruined when faw had perfect accuracy, im taking a break. ill keep tabs on the situation but it doesnt look promising. if basic double tap without torps (what mt tie does) is too good, i am not even interested in playing at all. i was hoping for torp gcd unlock, more fore weapons slots, more creep. now a stepback?
after broken brel heal reveal, years of kdf neglect, no rom unique faction, psw and trico nerf.... last straw.
im tired of adapting and gettign a nerf. this is ridiculous, what i go for in the game is off limits.
BECAUSE THEY ARE STEALING MY MONEY very time i buy new cpoints consoles or gear they laugh it up. and the funny thing is bugs never been stronger, and 4dhc fail spammers will always rule. have fun with tranny torps, lame science spam, and neverending healfests
simply not my style. shoudl the end of this be a reaosnable (and altogether different) fix, id be amazed.
You have to know right away that that isn't how STO works. So if you're "not actually talking about this game at all" that's fine. If you're "not actually talking about any type of mechanics that are at work in this game at all" that is also fine.
This is a good time to point out that the TTD of a ship in STO can be measured in seconds regardless of cloak or no cloak. Please don't let cloaking distract you from this.
EDIT: Oh and I could give 2 figs about double tapping blah blah blah. This is old news to me, never did it. Not my thing. I just worry when I see a post like this, and the worry isn't about CLOAKING for me. It's that someone has a dire misunderstanding of the game, and they may someday write code for it.
god bless you sir. good luck out there
So, I get what you're saying and I agree about double tap builds, but if uncounterable instant kills are wrong in space why are they ok for ground? What am I talking about?
1: Swords: The secondary on only swords is 100% knock back attack that disables enemy players. Why was it changed from the other melee weapons which require a successful combo completion for that effect and can't be chained for a perma-stun.
2: Omega cloak: This STF armor ability is a weapons enabled cloak that hides animations for certain attacks such as Orbital strike, plasma grenades, sniper rifles, and that ridiculous Elachi crescent which by the way shouldn't interact with those DoT security officer doffs. That thing can tick for 400+ x3 and you'll never see it coming with omega cloak, but I digress. How about losing the cloak part of that power since it serves no purpose in anything but pvp. NPCs never stop targeting you whether it's operative cloak or distortion field and havingthe ability to hide targeting animations from cloak with no cost is IMO an unintended interaction with this set bonus. Even the scimitar has a cost for weapons under cloak. Imagine the QQ if it had full weapons and shields.
3: cryo immobilizer: There's no way to break this hold and it stacks with every other hold and disable. So something rapid fire like the auto-carbine which also has a disable proc that nothing breaks is a problem I would say. Why not at the very least allow hold breakers such as hypos and adrenal booster break the hold. All I can think of is the permanent disable from tricobalts awhile back.
Ground is more dead then I've ever seen it right now and maybe some clarification on what's intended functionality and squashing things that aren't intended would go a long way towards getting people back on the ground. The thread started by mrkollins is a great place and there was some great discussions with bort that resulted in positive steps forward. It would be great to have that continue.
Vanilla Ground PvP information
That is the problem the payoff isn't justified imo after playing the b'rel and other bops for almost three years now. Especially the b'rel and its enhanced battle cloak can be countered by shield tanking and really all a person has to do or if a npc could actually think is spam the distribute shield button and counter most everything a b'rel can do. That is one reason its one of the most laughable ships out there because of poor design which was done way before your time but is still not that great especially when dealing with the underpowered base line of the fed side now especially with romulan ships.
It used to be that the fed side would QQ about how it would be out of balance for a b'rel to have any shield penetration with torps or a bop having 4 or 5 tactical consoles. The hoh'sus has 4 but its just because its so damned ugly. Which still a defiant, the romulan fleet t5 one, and the andorian one still out dps any kdf ship out now and the bortasqu' one doesn't count until it can start turning like a defiant.
But if there was something being talked about, planned, or implemented that could actually put all these on par/balanced whatever I'd be all for it but right now the payoff just isn't there yet. Especially when there are so many counters to the bops themselves that the battle cloaks offense needs to be higher with the long strong of ways you can bring one down.
HOWEVER, I hope somebody's looking into how much harder it's going to be to kill certain people now. Resists/healing/hull/placates/defense ratio permitting...
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
I feel the Killing in Seconds (1-2) seconds is more about Timing of the attack as opposed to the actual damage done. Since the average player has 8k per facing, and 45k Hull. This means to kill that player in one hit you only need to do about 53k Damage. Now add in resists and that number jumps to 60k. Which means my ship in 2 seconds needs to deal 60k damage. Add in latency and time for the barrage to hit (which is a noticable time if you are used to long range attacks) you get the need to deal greater then 60k Damage in 4 Seconds for the person on the other end to see thier ship litterally vanish.
Now what does it take to do that? 5 Tactical Consoles on a Scimitar afford all 5 DHC on front to do about 1.6k DMG per. The Turrets in back pop about 600 Dmg per. So were sitting at 8k dmg up front, and 1800 dmg in back. Not deadly by any means. Lets continue to buff. Throw in Attack pattern Alpha, Attack Pattern Omega, Cannon Scatter Volley, with Tactical Team, Emergency Power to Weapons, Tactical Fleet, and Fire on my Mark. Were now doing about 7k dmg per forward cannon, with 3k per turret in back. So now we got 35k Damage up front with 21k out back... thats 56k damage coming at you. Throw in the fact you are now debuffed form Fire on my Mark, and you are at 2% from the first volley. The second Volley coming about 2 seconds after the first hits you, puts you from that 2% to dead. Even if you were healing at that point, the unprepared nature of the Defending player is what kills them. Bleed Thru alone will finish a target that badly wounded.
Beam Overload Stacking is not the problem, an unprepared Opponent going against a well timed highly skilled opponent is the issue. No amount of nerf will level a skill playing field. The gap becomes wider when the attacking player has some of the best gear available.
Nerf is not a solution, it is punching another hole in a sinking ship to make it fair for the ships that have already sunk.
I could easily find you a dozen or more players that wouldn't even bother shooting back at my guy Willard the Rat were to attack them on his own. Firing back wouldn't be worth the effort because he's such a non-threat on his own.
At the same time, I could find you a dozen or more players that I've apologized to for accidentally killing them while just dorking around with various gearing and working on timings. Their deaths were more of a surprise to me than it was to them.
Heck, for the first time in over 21 months, I actually got accused of cheating last night from a guy that died to a 34k hit from a Beach Ball. C'mon, I complain when I pop myself with the Beach Ball if the damage is less than 60k.
So when you talk about 3 seconds, 30 seconds, 22 seconds...there are just way too many variables. The ideals might be awesome, but the reality of everything that's in the game - the varying levels of gearing and experience (btw, I'm a complete noob - ask anybody...but sometimes I'm entertaining)...that 3s vape on Joe Random might not even be noticed by his brother Bill Random.
Something else to consider about those decloak things (btw, I try to avoid decloaking) is looking at various boats and what one might be looking at, eh?
Breaking out a slide-calculator, chewing on an eraser tip, and generally having no idea if this is right or not...I can say the following:
My Fleet T'varo has 41671 hull & 10851 shields. If I were in a Fleet B'rel by contrast, I'd bee looking at...well, let's beakdown how the T'varo got to where it did.
Hull
Base: 29700
Fortified Hull: ~1485
117 Structural Integrity: ~10424.7
=41609.7 (yeah, I rounded on the amount given by SI)
So what would the B'rel be?
Hull
Base: 24750
Fortified Hull: ~1237.5
117 Structural Integrity: ~8687.25
=34674.75 (would actually be more, again because of the rounding on SI)
Yeah, that 5k or so less hull turned into ~7k less. (BTW, I'm not a fan of fixed ratios or some of the apparent balancing that takes place...the ~1k hull for 1 turn (B'rel has +5 turn and T'varo has +5k hull sort of thing)).
Okay, what about shields then? Starting with the T'varo...
Shield
Base: 8432
0.99 Shield Mod: -84.32
99 Shield Systems: +2504.304
=10851.984 (heh, rounding worked better here for SS than SI (same constant))
And for the B'rel?
Shield
Base: 8432
0.88 Shield Mod: -1011.84
99 Shield Systems: +2504.304
=9924.464 or so...
Course, that begs the question of why the T'varo has 0.99 and the B'rel 0.88...hey, but anyway...
What about Defense? Well, the T'varo doesn't get the +10% Escort bonus...but with the Rom BOFFs, the T'varo will have more Bonus Defense. Heck, a longer Ambush duration, more Ambush damage, higher CrtH and CrtD. Ahem...
That's just an example of two ships...which will experience different things, eh?
There's just so many variables...meh.
This is exactly what I do in PvP, and what Thissler tends to do. The problem is that it requires VERY precise timing, and if you're dealing with lag of any sort it becomes much more difficult to pull off. There are times where it's all I can do to just keep my damn ship lined up on target, with all the rubberbanding and lag that randomly spikes up whenever I make an attack run on someone (especially in Ker'rat).
I load up BO3 + HY3 quantums with a few attack buffs, decloak from a good attack angle (usually behind the target), hit the guy with TB2 and VM1, and hope it kills him. The issues I run into is this: My TB2 seems much less powerful as of late. People turn while it's on 'em, even if they don't appear to have a speed buff active (sometimes I overlook 'em, though). All it takes to blunt my attack is turning your ship a little to present a strong shield facing. Or running high enough defense to where my BO3 misses most of the time even with TB2 on you.
What I'm saying is, that build isn't quite as effective nowadays. Defense ratings are ridiculous, torpedoes are increasingly useless, and resistances can even make it to where a BO3 hit doesn't take down a shield facing.
Here's the interesting part.
It's actually easier to counter the decloak alpha strike, and yes even the double tap, if you are in a 1v1.
Why?
You are expecting it.
You know it's coming, you can focus all of your attention on the sounds of your opponent's buffs going off if they get sloppy or lose a few seconds.
You can prepare to activate exactly the right buff sequence, the right counters, and have them ready to go.
In a team scenario, all that flies out the window.
There are noises and explosions.
Pets, AoE effects, 4 other guys shooting at you, 4 guys you have to try and kill.
Sensory overload kicks in, Alpha Striker watches and waits for key buffs to expire (TT, RSP, APO) and then... bam it's either you are dead, or the attack got deflected and the cloak-er may or may not escape.
Interesting, isn't it?
The fun part in all these? We do this to each other in my fleet in inter-fleet battles.
It's hard to counter, it's not impossible. It becomes more difficult the less coordination your team has.
If the kdf gets something its too OP and should never be spoken of again unless the fed side gets it too then you must take what the fed side gives you (the order of things on how the policies of the KDF are dictated).
The best part is the kill after a coordinated attack. It should never take 1 Vaper to kill a well built target and indeed it doesn't. But the reward of team play and experiance, waiting out their buffs
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
A well written and thought out thread
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
except the schimitar right?
Do you even Science Bro?
I tell ya, there's nothing more satisfying than working with 1-2 other BoPs and attacking a target in tandem. First guy unloads an alpha, triggers target's TT/RSP/EPtS3/etc. Second guy de-cloaks and alphas, either hitting a weak spot in enemy's defense or triggering a secondary set of defensive buffs (zombie cruisers love to do this). Third guy de-cloaks and alphas when an opportunity presents itself, and likely kills the target unless the target has a seamless chain of defensive abilities set up (which is quite possible with all the doffs in-game). It's satisfying to coordinate an attack like that and succeed, especially if the guy's surrounded by friendlies in a Ker'rat-esque Fedball.