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A moment of nerd rage...

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  • nitsua116nitsua116 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tacofangs wrote: »


    Just as a referesher;

    Here's the Concept Art for New Romulus

    And here's a screenshot of New Romulus


    While there are many elements you can see represented in both, clearly the end result is not an exact match for the concept.

    Uh. Any chance I can get that concept art in about 1900x1200? Its friggin stunning!
  • cgta1967cgta1967 Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    jumpingjs wrote: »
    Yes, this was concerning me, to a point where I may have to stop playing STO if they mess up the Dyson Sphere.....

    lol...you will not and you know it.

    everyone geeking out about the science of a dyson sphere here is too dork blooded to leave STO.

    .
    _______________________
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  • elessymelessym Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    nitsua116 wrote: »
    Uh. Any chance I can get that concept art in about 1900x1200? Its friggin stunning!

    You want a page that says "400 Bad request" in 1920x1200?

    (That's what I get, anyway...)
    "Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
  • erei1erei1 Member Posts: 4,081 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    kyeto13 wrote: »
    Also, since when has Star Trek been part of the hard science fiction model. I think it is more space opera than a hard sciecne fiction
    Awesome, and I agree.
    Science fiction is composed of 2 words. Never forget the second word, as it is the most important. Doesn't mean you have to do everything you want, but you always have to remember this is not true. So yeah, a hero can come back from death, a single ship will destroy a borg cube that just destroyed a whole fleet, and a teenager will use the deflector dish to save the ship.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • inkrunnerinkrunner Member Posts: 407 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tacofangs wrote: »
    To be clear, if you just want to discuss how a Dyson sphere would function/work/look like/etc. I'm ALL FOR IT. I will gladly talk to you about such things, because we on the team discuss them CONSTANTLY these days.

    However, this thread started with a post longer than can fit on my monitor, declaring 'ticked off' you were because of how we'd gotten it all wrong. It's hard to not take that as a personal attack.


    Just as a referesher;

    Here's the Concept Art for New Romulus

    And here's a screenshot of New Romulus


    While there are many elements you can see represented in both, clearly the end result is not an exact match for the concept.

    Thank you for putting things into perspective.

    As for the New Romulus concept art, "Cryptic! Y U NO VOLCANO?!?!":(:D

    On topic:

    I just realized that, depending on the mass of the Dyson Sphere structure itself and the distance from the star, it could have the potential to destabilize a star through gravitational forces.

    We already know that even small planets tug on the stars that they orbit (We can see the stars move; that's how we find many exoplanets), but do we have any idea what the gravitational force from a structure as inherently massive as a Dyson Sphere would do to the internal structure of a star (i.e. cause coronal mass ejections that wipe out any life living on the Dyson Sphere)? For that matter, do we even know how much mass a Dyson sphere has?
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  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    We do know how much mass the sphere would have. It would be higher than the star. To stay at the distance and to make it out of a carbon alloy strong enough to withstand its own mass and any debris that smashes into it... we all know carbon is heavier than hydrogen. Therefore...

    As for the mass influence on the star, it can be somewhat negated by having the sphere at equidistance from the star, all around. The problem would be in its construction.
  • elessymelessym Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    inkrunner wrote: »
    We already know that even small planets tug on the stars that they orbit (We can see the stars move; that's how we find many exoplanets), but do we have any idea what the gravitational force from a structure as inherently massive as a Dyson Sphere would do to the internal structure of a star (i.e. cause coronal mass ejections that wipe out any life living on the Dyson Sphere)? For that matter, do we even know how much mass a Dyson sphere has?

    Unless you built the sphere out of materials of varying density, there wouldn't be a (significant) gravitational effect.
    "Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
  • jumpingjsjumpingjs Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    The problems with a Dyson sphere, whether it completely surrounds it so "visible" light from the star is blocked, or there are connected ... things, Apart from materials would be gravity from the star and not being vapourised by the heat.



    Another thing to consider is ... is is practical?

    You would still need to get food materials. Power ? Sorted, but not food.
    Hopefully I'll come back from my break; this break is fun; I play intellectual games.

    I hope STO get's better ...
  • inkrunnerinkrunner Member Posts: 407 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    As for the mass influence on the star, it can be somewhat negated by having the sphere at equidistance from the star, all around. The problem would be in its construction.
    elessym wrote: »
    Unless you built the sphere out of materials of varying density, there wouldn't be a (significant) gravitational effect.

    One must remember that, though small, these stars are not points in space. One side of the Dyson Sphere would affect the closer side of the star more than it would affect the other. The net result of this would be a force that could, in theory, pull the particles within the star, especially coronal ones, further away from each other. Also, the smallest Red Dwarf stars transfer energy internally through convection, which could potentially(again, in theory) be destabilized by this net force. You could argue that the star's own gravity would be enough to keep it stable, and you'd probably be right in most situations, but I'm more unsure about that counterpoint when dealing with the stars that have the lowest mass.
    We do know how much mass the sphere would have. It would be higher than the star. To stay at the distance and to make it out of a carbon alloy strong enough to withstand its own mass and any debris that smashes into it... we all know carbon is heavier than hydrogen. Therefore...

    I think you're forgetting that the hydrogen in stars is compressed to nearly the highest degree possible; it's compressed until it fuses and releases energy. To put that in perspective, OGLE-TR-122b (the smallest star) is only 20% larger than Jupiter in terms of diameter, but it has something like 100 times the mass of Jupiter. Both OGLE-TR-122b and Jupiter are made primarily of hydrogen.
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  • jumpingjsjumpingjs Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013

    I think you're forgetting that the hydrogen in stars is compressed to nearly the highest degree possible; it's compressed until it fuses and releases energy. To put that in perspective, OGLE-TR-122b (the smallest star) is only 20% larger than Jupiter in terms of diameter, but it has something like 100 times the mass of Jupiter. Both OGLE-TR-122b and Jupiter are made primarily of hydrogen.

    I am prepared to dispute that.

    Yes, they are compressed, but not to the extent you are talking about.

    Quite a lot of the Fusion is a result of Quantum Tunneling; you know!

    Yes Gravity plays a part, but some of what you are saying is wrong.

    Why?

    Because the sun [Star] would use up a hell of a lot of fuel up pronto.
    Hopefully I'll come back from my break; this break is fun; I play intellectual games.

    I hope STO get's better ...
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,901 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    inkrunner wrote: »
    Thank you for putting things into perspective.

    As for the New Romulus concept art, "Cryptic! Y U NO VOLCANO?!?!"

    On topic:

    I just realized that, depending on the mass of the Dyson Sphere structure itself and the distance from the star, it could have the potential to destabilize a star through gravitational forces.

    We already know that even small planets tug on the stars that they orbit (We can see the stars move; that's how we find many exoplanets), but do we have any idea what the gravitational force from a structure as inherently massive as a Dyson Sphere would do to the internal structure of a star (i.e. cause coronal mass ejections that wipe out any life living on the Dyson Sphere)? For that matter, do we even know how much mass a Dyson sphere has?

    I think a civilization that has the technical capacity to build a Dyson sphere would have the tech to also counteract any unwanted gravitational effects.

    Hell, even in Star Trek proper at the speeds the ships are accelerating and biological matter inside should be squished - but they have the (nearly magical :)) inertial dampers, which never seem to fail no matter how badly the ship is damaged, or when main power goes out, etc. ;)

    So, again, beings with the tech capacity to build a Dyson sphere should be able to devise workable solutions to the above issues you describe.:D
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  • inkrunnerinkrunner Member Posts: 407 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    jumpingjs wrote: »
    I am prepared to dispute that.

    Yes, they are compressed, but not to the extent you are talking about.

    Quite a lot of the Fusion is a result of Quantum Tunneling; you know!

    Yes Gravity plays a part, but some of what you are saying is wrong.

    Why?

    Because the sun [Star] would use up a hell of a lot of fuel up pronto.

    Ok. Did you know that the theoretical 'minimal mass' required for hydrogen fusion is 75 times the mass of Jupiter?

    Also, the sun is 1000 times the mass of Jupiter, while Jupiter's diameter is 1/10 of the Sun's. Stars are freakishly dense things. It boggles the mind to think that neutron stars are even denser than that.

    I think a civilization that has the technical capacity to build a Dyson sphere would have the tech to also counteract any unwanted gravitational effects.

    Hell, even in Star Trek proper at the speeds the ships are accelerating and biological matter inside should be squished - but they have the (nearly magical ) inertial dampers, which never seem to fail no matter how badly the ship is damaged, or when main power goes out, etc.

    So, again, beings with the tech capacity to build a Dyson sphere should be able to devise workable solutions to the above issues you describe.

    I agree. That's how I would explain it, anyway, if indeed the problems I described actually exist. (Also, the inertial dampeners were kind of ridiculous:rolleyes:)

    (P.S.: There is a measure of mass called a 'Jupiter Mass' that is 0.001 solar masses and equivalent to the mass of Jupiter.)
    (P.P.S.: Also, please keep in mind that, apart from some mass and size values and comparisons, everything I said was theoretical.:))
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  • mandoknight89mandoknight89 Member Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    jumpingjs wrote: »

    BUT STO; PLEASE DO NOT MAKE A SILLY MATHEMATICAL ERROR,

    I BEG OF YOU!
    But... how do we know it's Star Trek if they don't casually make silly mathematical errors? :P
    jumpingjs wrote: »
    The problems with a Dyson sphere, whether it completely surrounds it so "visible" light from the star is blocked, or there are connected ... things, Apart from materials would be gravity from the star and not being vapourised by the heat.



    Another thing to consider is ... is is practical?

    You would still need to get food materials. Power ? Sorted, but not food.
    A Dyson Sphere/Swarm is a project for a Type II civilization on the Kardashev scale. The Federation is a group of Type I civilizations. Humanity as a whole (at our point in time) marks maybe Type 0.72. Each full "type" grade of civilization uses ten billion times as much energy as the previous type.

    A civilization of Dyson Sphere builders probably look at the "food" question like the Federation would look at someone asking how they get enough gasoline to fuel the Enterprise. (That is, they'd probably look at you like you were insanely ignorant)

    A Dyson Sphere building civilization is easily on the level of "sufficiently advanced technology," as per Clarke's third law.
    jumpingjs wrote: »
    Quite a lot of the Fusion is a result of Quantum Tunneling; you know!

    Yes Gravity plays a part, but some of what you are saying is wrong.
    Quantum tunneling enables fusion, but it's not some kind of cosmic property like gravity is. Quantum tunneling is the phenomenon, not the cause of the phenomenon.
    inkrunner wrote: »
    Also, the sun is 1000 times the mass of Jupiter, while Jupiter's diameter is 1/10 of the Sun's.
    This would imply similar density. One tenth the diameter is one thousandth the volume.
  • edwardianededwardianed Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    kyeto13 wrote: »
    Also, since when has Star Trek been part of the hard science fiction model. I think it is more space opera than a hard sciecne fiction

    I always saw Star Trek as "hard space opera" (or scientific space opera, but that doesn't sound as good), yeah it can sometimes be ridiculous with the facts, but it always tends to extrapolate and exaggerate from scientific principles rather than just make up whatever the hell it likes... except when it does :rolleyes:
  • tacofangstacofangs Member Posts: 2,951 Cryptic Developer
    edited August 2013
    Alright, you want to get into specifics?

    A Dyson sphere is very large, and has a lot of mass, but it's not very dense. 99% of it is empty space. So. . . . gravity? Does the gravity pull you toward the center of the sphere? Does it pull you toward the edge? (even on the inside?) Is the edge dense/thick enough to warrant localized gravity that would allow you to stick to the inside?
    Now's where someone says the whole sphere is spinning, and that what holds you to the inside is centripetal force. That would work well enough in a ring world, but you can't spin a sphere in all directions simultaneously, so you're going to end up with areas with less (or no) apparent gravity (like the poles).

    Ok, so enough with gravity, when you're standing on the inner surface of the sphere, and look up, what do you see? If you're inside the atmosphere, you'll see sky, but you'd also see the opposite wall of the sphere. Those of you who argue that you couldn't see the opposite wall, why not? I can see Jupiter on a clear night. Now if Jupiter was the whole sky. . . I'm pretty sure it would be pretty damn bright.

    How about if you are above the atmosphere? You don't get sky anymore. . . but you don't get blackness. The entire sky would be filled with brightly lit planet surface, perhaps with some darker sections if there is something shading them from the sun.

    Which leads us to night/day. Lots of Dyson concepts show big panels encircling the sun (presumably orbiting) such that they cast shadow on the inner surface. But. . . the opposite side of the sphere is entirely lit. It'd be like standing in the shade at earth. Just because you're not in direct sunlight doesn't mean the entire sky isn't brightly lit (and thus, indirectly lighting your side) Plus, if you have big wedge shaped solar blocks like that, you'd still have a problem at the poles.


    What did I miss?
    nitsua116 wrote: »
    Uh. Any chance I can get that concept art in about 1900x1200? Its friggin stunning!

    I know we have it posted on here somewhere, but I couldn't find it, so I just did a google search. That's the only one I could find.
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  • cgta1967cgta1967 Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tacofangs wrote: »
    .....Which leads us to night/day. .....

    huge LCD domes......


    .
    _______________________
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  • icegavelicegavel Member Posts: 991 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tacofangs wrote: »
    *A very good explanation of science-stuff.*

    Taco, I'd just like to point out... when the TNG writers did Relics, they made a mistake in their science. A Dyson SPHERE is a series of satellites that orbit a sun to harness its power. What the TNG writers used (and what you and your wonderfully-talented team built) is actually a Dyson SHELL. Just wanted to put that out there.
  • cgta1967cgta1967 Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tacofangs wrote: »
    ....Which leads us to night/day......

    or instead of trying to bring Terran life form tendencies to it.


    what kind of species would evolve from eons of life in a full solar environment ?..... sleep is the alien concept ( we do it because we "have to" in order to survive on earth ). as are starry skies would be alien from the interior as we would know it.


    an example:

    a friend and I were pondering life on the Jupiter moon Europa. The surface is frozen ice....but possibly the whole inside is an ocean that might possibly harbor life. What if that life became intelligent? If the whole surface of the moon is ice, when the lifeforms look 'up' all they would see is the crust of the ice seen from the underside...... how would they ponder the universe?

    ..... their whole concept of the "universe" would be based upon that....they would have no concept of stars, or open space.... only the ocean, which ends at the crust. the edge of their universe would be a hard wall.

    thier whole concept of existence would be dramatically different than anything we know.


    this kind of thinking could be applied to the lifeforms encountered in a dyson sphere environment....especially if they have been there for millions of years.

    .
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  • kyeto13kyeto13 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tacofangs wrote: »
    What did I miss?

    May we never doubt that you know what you are talking about, Mr. Fang. You are awesome and you should take the nitpickers comments and throw them out an airlock.
    Live on Earth. Work in Space. Play with Dragons. Join the best add on to STO, the Neverwinter holodeck program! Only 14 GPL a month.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,548 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    But... how do we know it's Star Trek if they don't casually make silly mathematical errors? :P

    A Dyson Sphere/Swarm is a project for a Type II civilization on the Kardashev scale. The Federation is a group of Type I civilizations. Humanity as a whole (at our point in time) marks maybe Type 0.72. Each full "type" grade of civilization uses ten billion times as much energy as the previous type.

    A civilization of Dyson Sphere builders probably look at the "food" question like the Federation would look at someone asking how they get enough gasoline to fuel the Enterprise. (That is, they'd probably look at you like you were insanely ignorant)

    A Dyson Sphere building civilization is easily on the level of "sufficiently advanced technology," as per Clarke's third law.

    Quantum tunneling enables fusion, but it's not some kind of cosmic property like gravity is. Quantum tunneling is the phenomenon, not the cause of the phenomenon.

    This would imply similar density. One tenth the diameter is one thousandth the volume.

    I read a translated Korean manga called "The Last Question" this week that involves the Kardashev Scale. In the story, they reach the point where galaxies are filled up in just a few years due to population, but the energy resources increase faster than that by tapping the energy of stars. Eventually, not enough stars in the universe to power their civilization
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I think I just learned more Science Stuff, by reading this entire thread...,

    Than I did in all the years I was in school.

    :eek:

    ;)
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  • kublakhan81kublakhan81 Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    This is the sort of thread that results when a nerd has too much time on his/her hands.
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    This is the sort of thread that results when a nerd has too much time on his/her hands.

    Or spends most of their time, actually learning stuff. ;)
    STO Member since February 2009.
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  • cgta1967cgta1967 Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tacofangs wrote: »
    ....Ok, so enough with gravity, when you're standing on the inner surface of the sphere, and look up, what do you see? If you're inside the atmosphere, you'll see sky, but you'd also see the opposite wall of the sphere. Those of you who argue that you couldn't see the opposite wall, why not? I can see Jupiter on a clear night. Now if Jupiter was the whole sky. . . I'm pretty sure it would be pretty damn bright. .....

    I wouldn't be so concerned about what you see inside a sphere...I would be worried about the material quantities it would take in order to make a sphere that big. Where would the resources come from in order to build an enclosed sphere that large ? That amount of physical material would be incomprehensible, and improbable at best I would figure.

    I would imagine 'sections' that could be created with conventional matter materials.....but even more probable I would imagine whole areas made from materials that aren't typical physical matter at all......

    let me try to explain this thought....

    instead if 'mass' matter..... what if major portions of the sphere are made from plasmatic energy....or even harnessed 'dark matter' ?? This could get into some very spooky quantum science as well.

    then the physical structure could be made from the energy of the sun itself without having to 'farm' materials from large portions of the galaxial area around itself in order to create the structure.

    so then back to lifeforms...... what kind of lifeform could and would live in a harnessed plasma-mass structure environment ? or a dark matter solid ? or a harnessed quantum binding array ?


    ....now my head hurtz.
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  • inkrunnerinkrunner Member Posts: 407 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Taco, I want you to know that whatever logical fallacies abound in Star Trek Online (even though I see no glaring ones with the Dyson Sphere/Shell), I will always love playing it.

    Because you know what? Whether you're 15,000km from the Klingon border, floating through a ship that's 82 AUs wide, or watching a faster-than-light nebula approach through your window, Star Trek is, and to me always will be, Star Trek.:cool:
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  • mandoknight89mandoknight89 Member Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    kyeto13 wrote: »
    May we never doubt that you know what you are talking about, Mr. Fang. You are awesome and you should take the nitpickers comments and throw them out an airlock.

    Remember, he works on a team whose job it is to create content for an MMO of one of the most popular science fiction franchises in the world. By the time they announced the Dyson Sphere battlezone, they probably had done a lot more research about it than just read the Wikipedia page.

    Here's an idea, though, inspired by the concept art's curvature (maybe you've already thought of it yourselves): habitation spheres. Artificial planetoids that provide more easily-controlled inner environments than the inner surface of the Dyson Sphere. Due to the sheer scale of the main sphere, the habitation units could be incredulously massive--perhaps a central administration zone the size of Jupiter?--and they'd still be smaller on a relative scale than a one-bedroom apartment in NYC. Death Star sized objects would be like grains of sand in the Sahara.
  • cgta1967cgta1967 Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    ....habitation spheres.....

    my thought as well...or solid planetoids too....all you need is enough matter mass in order for it to reach hydrostatic equilibrium, it would then hold itself together. that could solve some natural gravity needs .....

    hollow spheres would be ideal for radiation and projectile protection that I'm sure many lifeforms could be in danger of....easier to manage atmospheric parameters as well I would assume.
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  • tacofangstacofangs Member Posts: 2,951 Cryptic Developer
    edited August 2013
    cgta1967 wrote: »
    I wouldn't be so concerned about what you see inside a sphere...I would be worried about the material quantities it would take in order to make a sphere that big.

    Remember, it's my job to figure out what it looks like. . . so I HAVE to be concerned with what you see.

    As for the amount of material, that is what makes Dyson *Shells* so insane. You'd have to harvest hundreds/thousands/millions of star systems to get enough material to make one, small (relatively) shell.

    Something else I didn't mention before. Let's pretend they have come up with some method to create a day/night cycle on the inner surface. Even with that, the sun is still fixed. i.e. the sun is always in the exact same position, day or night. There is no sunset as we know it, there is no sunrise as we know it. That means all shadows on the surface always fall in the same places all the time. Potentially, this creates insane microclimates.

    My point in all of this conjecture on the 'realities' of a Dyson Sphere*is that the mere concept of one is so ridiculous and insane, that it's silly to me to argue that someone didn't get it 'right.'

    Yes, there is science behind some of it, but because of how insane and ridiculous and far beyond our full comprehension such a system is, there is SOOOO much wiggle room in there, that I am not terribly concerned with making everything perfect. Again, gameplay is king. If we can make you FEEL like you're in a Dyson Sphere, and the game play is fun, and the story is interesting, I think we've done our job.

    *Shut up, I know, it's a Shell, but TNG says it's a sphere (and it looks like a sphere) so there. :::raspberries:::
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  • cgta1967cgta1967 Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tacofangs wrote: »
    Remember, it's my job to figure out what it looks like. . . .

    you sir....have a very cool job.

    I geek out on pondering these concepts as a hobby..... you get paid to do it as a career .

    :cool:;)
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  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tacofangs wrote: »
    Remember, it's my job to figure out what it looks like. . . so I HAVE to be concerned with what you see.

    As for the amount of material, that is what makes Dyson *Shells* so insane. You'd have to harvest hundreds/thousands/millions of star systems to get enough material to make one, small (relatively) shell.

    Something else I didn't mention before. Let's pretend they have come up with some method to create a day/night cycle on the inner surface. Even with that, the sun is still fixed. i.e. the sun is always in the exact same position, day or night. There is no sunset as we know it, there is no sunrise as we know it. That means all shadows on the surface always fall in the same places all the time. Potentially, this creates insane microclimates.

    My point in all of this conjecture on the 'realities' of a Dyson Sphere*is that the mere concept of one is so ridiculous and insane, that it's silly to me to argue that someone didn't get it 'right.'

    Yes, there is science behind some of it, but because of how insane and ridiculous and far beyond our full comprehension such a system is, there is SOOOO much wiggle room in there, that I am not terribly concerned with making everything perfect. Again, gameplay is king. If we can make you FEEL like you're in a Dyson Sphere, and the game play is fun, and the story is interesting, I think we've done our job.

    *Shut up, I know, it's a Shell, but TNG says it's a sphere (and it looks like a sphere) so there. :::raspberries:::

    I luv it when Your shell turns red. :P
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