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Amateur PvP question.

stormbringer77stormbringer77 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited July 2013 in PvP Gameplay
I play the odd PvP match, I'm happy to win or lose. I even check in on the PvP forum for hints/advice.

There is one area I really don't understand. What are considered P2W consoles/ships? Not trolling, honestly, but (a) I've always thought you can earn anything in game without using RL cash and (b) surely the way that each ship has limited console slots/BOFF stations means that there is no such thing as a P2W ship/console? Additionally that doesn't take into account individual tactics/ability.

Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to share your thoughts on this issue.
***The above ramblings are, as always, my own opinion. Based on my experiences and interpreted by my mind, they by no means reflect the universal truth (unless coincidentally). Peace.***
Post edited by stormbringer77 on

Comments

  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    it doesn't really mater to me if something was paid for or not, but there are a few things that are simply WAY to good

    temporal ships, especially wells as far as sci ships are concerned

    the temporal set

    elite runabouts and interceptors

    AMS is to powerful in effect

    all the perception placates

    the bug

    and proboly most of all at this point, thats not even 'pay' at all, is romulan and reman boffs on romulan characters. the embassy boffs for the other 2 factions arent half as good.
  • bobtheyakbobtheyak Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    P2W used to refer mostly to universal consoles that people would acquire from an unrelated lower-level ship in the C-store so they could buff their level 50 to unreasonable strength.

    The line is a bit blurrier now that you can get most everything on the exchange. Using several [formerly] P2W items is still generally viewed as unnecessary overkill though.

    That being said... <3 Subspace Jump
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Different folks will have different opinions on what constituted P2W...a double entendre!

    Yep, not only will folks disagree on what gear constitutes P2W...
    ...folks will disagree on the very definition of P2W itself.

    And it gets more complicated than that, actually...eh?

    5v5 - there's one guy on one of the teams that has "something" - nothing might be said.
    5v5 - there's three guys on one of the teams that has the same "something" - tada!
  • burstorionburstorion Member Posts: 1,750 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    P2W is really the catch all term for anything not found naturally in game (ie through drops, or ships not earnt by levelling up, ect)

    As to the question if they truely are 'p2w' is blurred by several factors, such as buying a lockbox ship off the exchange or trading dilithium to zen - users of said items claiming that as you -technically- can buy them by ec or dilithium conversion ensures that they are not 'pay to win' items - this argument I will leave for others as its a hot topic button I rarely wish to press.

    Another form is the derogatory 'P2W' - this is less about the origin of said item (ignoring the fact most items considered so are via lockox, ect) but more about its power and ability in relation to the generic dropped equipment or versus the base levelling up ships or even differences in factional items (see the plasmonic leech - many feds saw this as p2w, but now seem to have decided it is not due to their ability to buy it for ec)

    In essence 'P2W' as a term is a way to denote the eponymous 'have and have nots'
  • johnny111971johnny111971 Member Posts: 1,300 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    5v5 - there's one guy on one of the teams that has "something" - nothing might be said.
    5v5 - there's three guys on one of the teams that has the same "something" - tada!

    This. At least to me, its not so much when you run into a single instance of anything people say is P2W or OP. Its running across a team using several copies of the same thing.

    Personally, I think that there should be effect cooldowns to help counter the repeated/spam abuse. Would not effect PvE at all, but a player could would be immune to the effect of any console power for the for 1/2 to the full standard cd of that console/ability...

    Example; AMS has a 3 Min cooldown, then grant anyone effected by AMS a 1.5 - 3 Minute immunity to the effect.

    I think this would drastically reduce some of the issues reported.

    Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    (a) I've always thought you can earn anything in game without using RL cash
    This is what Cryptic's marketing people want you to believe, but it's not true.

    The dilithium/zen conversion (and a bit more indirectly the exchange) gives you a way of spending other people's real money on items. But if everybody in the game stopped spending real money, nobody could get any of the c-store items. (Well, there is the lifetime stipend, but I doubt that it accounts for a significant portion of the available zen in the game. I'd love to see numbers though.) Going by the suspected drop rates for lockbox ships of 0.5% (anyone have more current numbers?), this means that each lockbox ship you see in the game equates to something like 200$ real money spent. And somebody had to spend this money, even if you personally avoided it by using the exchange or zen/dil conversion.

    Note that this is different from the pre-F2P game, where certain things could be bought by truly ingame means (respecs with merits, the original VA ships with emblems or marks of exploration).
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  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    deokkent wrote: »
    P2W doesn't mean someone ELSE paid for it for you. If you can grind for it, it's not pay to win. Otherwise, everything in this game can be considered pay to win under this umbrella, even the borg set (it uses dilithium).
    You CANNOT grind for zen unless someone puts down real money.

    You CAN grind for dilithium, which means that everything from the dil store, fleet stores (except ships that require modules), rep system etc. can be earned without real money involvement.
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  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    deokkent wrote: »
    Lol for some reason, you think I didn't understand that part.
    It's obvious that you did not understand that part. Otherwise you would not have brought up the borg set which has no (required) connection to the zen economy.

    Also, you may note that I never talked about "P2W". Everybody means something different by that term anyway. I merely expressed that the "I can grind everything" sentiment that many players exhibit is problematic. If something involves real money transactions (beyond a fixed amount for an all-you-can-eat subscription) - even if only indirectly - it creates an incentive for Cryptic to design the game in a way that makes such items highly desirable, thereby deteriorating balance and accessibility of the pvp game. This is why I think that it is important to keep in mind that even the zen/dil exchange still requires real money to be paid at some point. And yes, I understand that Cryptic is a business and only cares about money. But having a reason for doing something doesn't automatically imply that what one is doing is a good thing.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    mancom wrote: »
    And yes, I understand that Cryptic is a business and only cares about money.

    But that needs some elaboration.

    There's a difference between only caring about money and only caring about money. /cough

    There's the quick cash grab and there's the ongoing cash grab. (Lol, spike cash grab vs. sustained cash grab.) Cryptic is concerned with the sustained cash grab - thus what they need to pay attention to and be concerned with is going to be different than a company concerned with a spike cash grab...
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  • logicalspocklogicalspock Member Posts: 836 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    To me, the problem is not "pay to win". The problem is that the game is so unbalanced. A gold subscriber that uses his VA token to buy a Galaxy class ship is completely outclassed by the person who spends $50 to buy the Odyssey. Same for the guy who gets the free Intrepid or RA token science ship. He is outclassed by the person who spends $50 for the Vesta or $150 on the Temporal Science Vessel.

    And there are certain ability that are grossly unbalanced, like elite pets. And every high end ship these days seems to come with pets, which creates the dreaded pet SPAM.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    mancom wrote: »
    You CANNOT grind for zen unless someone puts down real money.

    You CAN grind for dilithium, which means that everything from the dil store, fleet stores (except ships that require modules), rep system etc. can be earned without real money involvement.

    There was a point where you couldn't even play the game without paying real money for a subscription.

    Talk about pay to win!!!

    ;)


    @OP:

    "P2W" as a phrase gets used too often, and usually without any real meaning any more.


    The only meaning we should focus on at this point is whether an item, ship or power is balanced (under-powered / balanced / over-powered) or if it is outright broken (meaning it literally is not functioning as intended through design).

    For me, I have a really short list of items that I think are over-powered.

    Generally: TIF (one of the worst offenders), Grav Pulse Generator, Danubes of all tiers, Interceptors of all tiers, Powersiphons of all tiers, the Scramble Sensors DOFF.

    There are also a few items I think are problematic when you see 2 or 3+ guys using them in coordination, like AMS or Theta.

    That doesn't mean I necessarily use everything else but the items in the first list are the ones I think are clearly way over-performing and should be nerfed.
  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    deokkent wrote: »
    So what are you doing here?
    Maybe I should have been even clearer: I did not comment on the "W" aspect of "P2W" because there really is no clear consensus among the players. But the OP suggested with point a) that P2W was inherently impossible in this game because there supposedly is no mandatory "P" due to the zen/dil exchange. This is the aspect that I commented on, which I assumed was obvious from the particular line I included as a quote in my initial response.
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  • masterkeychnk5masterkeychnk5 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    There was a point where you couldn't even play the game without paying real money for a subscription.

    Talk about pay to win!!!

    ;)



    Indeed, people have been trying to swoop this under the carpet and expect to play a game for free without spending a single penny, sad story bro but that aint true :(
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am not Snakie, MT is!
  • masterkeychnk5masterkeychnk5 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    To me, the problem is not "pay to win". The problem is that the game is so unbalanced. A gold subscriber that uses his VA token to buy a Galaxy class ship is completely outclassed by the person who spends $50 to buy the Odyssey. Same for the guy who gets the free Intrepid or RA token science ship. He is outclassed by the person who spends $50 for the Vesta or $150 on the Temporal Science Vessel.

    And there are certain ability that are grossly unbalanced, like elite pets. And every high end ship these days seems to come with pets, which creates the dreaded pet SPAM.

    Lol completely outclasses, thats a bit dramatic here isnt it?

    So a ship with 5 tactical consoles vs a ship with 4 automatically does more damage? Or wins? If the game was so simple I doubt anyone would play it because the end outcome would already be determined.

    A proper and well build ship in terms of bridge officer layout with only 9 consoles can still do a whole lot better then a ship with 10 consoles and having a sub-par bo layout for what you could end up with.

    I hope you get my point.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am not Snakie, MT is!
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  • crusty8maccrusty8mac Member Posts: 1,381 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Let's define P2W...... wait, who cares?
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