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Did the Iconians create the Guardiand of Forever and the doomsday machines?

killingyouslowlykillingyouslowly Member Posts: 16 Arc User
This is a theory and a question ive had about star trek way before Star Trek online even came out. The Guardian of Forever seems very similar to the Iconian gateways with the exception of it allowing someone to travel through time as will as just space and it being a sentient computer. The doomsday planet killers are also something an empire as powerful as the Iconians would probably build. Do you think its probable that they are indeed leftover remnants of the Iconians? The only other civilizations who had that kind of technology might be the Tkon or Preservers.And I doubt the Preservers were in the business of building planet destroying ships since they were all about peace and love.
Post edited by killingyouslowly on

Comments

  • pherraspherras Member Posts: 81 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Are you sure it isn't the other way around the Iconian gates look like the guardian of forever? I think the gate is way older than anything you mentioned
  • killingyouslowlykillingyouslowly Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Its never stated how old the Guardian is.
  • emacsheadroomemacsheadroom Member Posts: 994 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Memory Alpha says the Guardian claims to be 5 billion years old. At least one non-canon novel refers to the Guardian being built by the Q before they became omnipotent.

    The Iconians are nothing compared to that. Even the T'kon hadn't evolved yet.
  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Member Posts: 1,606 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    The Preservers are always a possibility.
  • killingyouslowlykillingyouslowly Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Mabey the Iconians based their gateways on the Guardian? Also I forgot about the "before your sun burned hot" part
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,557 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    With a device like the Guardian under the Iconian's control, then they would still be in power. They could have easily stopped any rebellion from occurring. There are numerous powerful races that are no longer around, have gone into hiding, or have left the galaxy that could have created the Guardian or the Doomsday Machines. Some that we haven't heard of before.
  • killingyouslowlykillingyouslowly Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    The only reason I brought this up is because the Iconian gateways and the guardian act awfully similar making me think that there is some sort of connection.Also the doomsday weapons seem like the perfect thing for an empire like the Tkon or Iconians to have in case their subjects decided to rebel.Basically they would use it the same way the Empire used the Death Star in Star Wars.

    By the way we dont know what caused the disappearance of the Iconians.Mabey they were studying the Guardian but had to abandon it for some reason. Hopefully well get a season dedicated to explaining the Iconian connection to events in the galaxy.
  • theanothernametheanothername Member Posts: 1,513 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I vaguely remember that the Doomsday Machine was sent from another galaxy to fight an (by the time the TOS episode happend extinct) enemy in ours. I don't think it was build by the Iconians. Maybe it was build to fight them.
  • futurepastnowfuturepastnow Member Posts: 3,660 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Yeah, the Guardian is unimaginably old and powerful. It's a relic of one of the first sentient races in our galaxy.

    As for the planet killer, its trajectory indicated an extragalactic origin. That could have been incorrect, of course.

    If you're going to try to draw a story connection between the Iconians and the planet killer, I'd say it's more likely the weapon was directed at them than created by them. They're more subtle than that.
  • knockyknocky Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    One of the Star Trek books years ago postulate the Planet Killer was a revenge weapon against the Borg.
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  • warmonger360warmonger360 Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    since before your sun burned hot....

    the Iconians couldn't have built the guardian 4 billion yrs ago, cuz they aren't quite that old, and it's believed the doomsday machine came from outside our galaxy
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  • zdfx19zdfx19 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Both the Guardian and the Doomsday Machine were fixtures in TOS that I wish TNG or any of the other series could have been bothered to follow up on. Both were great story ideas with lots of room to build on. The non canon information frankly turns into a mess with the machine being a weapon from another galaxy and then an anti-borg device and the Guardian first a protector of the Milky Way and then some form of Q construct. Its a mess that only a new TV show could fix.

    Even the Iconian history is a contradictory mess. Some books wanted them as conquerors but the core stories with them have them as misunderstood and peaceful, murdered for fear of their technology (gifted to them by the Q no less.) STO has them as full on bad guys for some reason. But there is no connection between them and the Doomsday Machine established in Trek lore.

    Much as I like the Doomsday Machine I can't help but wish STO would introduce the Andromedans from Starfleet Battles. Now those were some cool invaders from another galaxy with unique tech. What I'd give to fly a Dominator...

    Oh, The phase 2 team did a script from the canceled phase 2 show about the Doomsday Machine and the Guardian in one ep. In Harms Way.
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,115 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    The only reason I brought this up is because the Iconian gateways and the guardian act awfully similar making me think that there is some sort of connection.Also the doomsday weapons seem like the perfect thing for an empire like the Tkon or Iconians to have in case their subjects decided to rebel.Basically they would use it the same way the Empire used the Death Star in Star Wars.

    By the way we dont know what caused the disappearance of the Iconians.Mabey they were studying the Guardian but had to abandon it for some reason. Hopefully well get a season dedicated to explaining the Iconian connection to events in the galaxy.

    Given the response of the Guardian Captain Kirk:

    "Since before your Sun burned hot in space, and before your race was born, I have awaited a question..."

    (Meaning the race that created the Guardian either died out or abandoned it 4+ billion years ago); no, I don't think the Iconians created the GoF.

    As for the Doomsday Machine - Spock (based on course data) surmised it came from another Galaxy, so again, no; I don't think they were Iconian created weapons.
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  • rhakatheredrhakathered Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    This is a theory and a question ive had about star trek way before Star Trek online even came out. The Guardian of Forever seems very similar to the Iconian gateways with the exception of it allowing someone to travel through time as will as just space and it being a sentient computer.
    That's probably because they are both gates which show you where you end up once you step through them.

    Other than that they are nothing alike, they don't even look alike.
    The doomsday planet killers are also something an empire as powerful as the Iconians would probably build. Do you think its probable that they are indeed leftover remnants of the Iconians?
    If they had that kind of technology, Star Trek wouldn't have happened because this sector of the galaxy would be dead.
    The only other civilizations who had that kind of technology might be the Tkon or Preservers.And I doubt the Preservers were in the business of building planet destroying ships since they were all about peace and love.
    Correction: the only other civilisations you know about. Aside from the points that have already been raised (the Planet Killer is explicitely noted as coming in from outside the galaxy, and the Guardian of Forever places its creation billions of years before the Iconans existed) - Star Trek takes place in a rather small part of the Milky Way Galaxy and even in the TV shows they lob in ancient empires as setting pieces, especially in TOS. Hell, even the Iconians were just a throwaway name until DS9 decided to recycle them for a second episode.

    I think what you are doing is a folly many fanfiction writers subscribe to (and I count published Star Trek novels here too): find a faction that you like and tie every loose end into them, until the whole setting is nothing but a giant convulted shadow play. It is usually at this point that a franchise gets a reboot.
  • erei1erei1 Member Posts: 4,081 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    zdfx19 wrote: »
    Even the Iconian history is a contradictory mess. Some books wanted them as conquerors but the core stories with them have them as misunderstood and peaceful, murdered for fear of their technology (gifted to them by the Q no less.) STO has them as full on bad guys for some reason. But there is no connection between them and the Doomsday Machine established in Trek lore.
    Not to mention many books are not considered canon for STO, it's not that contradictory. What we know from the Iconians comes from old tales, made by the ones who destroyed them. As Picard say, they could even have been explorer, seen as devil by lesser civilizations. Or they could have been the oppressor. Or something in between.
    What we have now, is a civilization that was almost destroyed. No matter what they used to be, they probably barely remember it, and thay probably want a revenge.
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  • killingyouslowlykillingyouslowly Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Wernt the Andromedens the non humanoid shape shifting species the Kelvins?

    Mabey the Preservers created the Guardian. They might be old enough.As for the Q I kind of figured they are essentially gods and have existed since the beginning (mabey even before) the universe and never had mortal bodies to begin with.

    Its also possible that the doomsday machines were created as a weapon against the Iconians or another empire like Tkon or even Preservers.I dont think the borg are that old.At the very least they are a couple of thousand years.Depending on how far vger went back in time(if you go with the Legacy origin of the Borg).
  • oldschooldorkoldschooldork Member Posts: 426 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    knocky wrote: »
    One of the Star Trek books years ago postulate the Planet Killer was a revenge weapon against the Borg.

    The book was Star Trek:Vendetta by Peter David. In this book it was revealed that yes, the Planet Killer was a revenge weapon developed to defeat the Borg. The one that Kirk and TOS Enterprise defeated was a prototype. I won't say any more in case anyone wants to read it. Very good book, highly recommended.
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  • timezargtimezarg Member Posts: 1,268
    edited July 2013
    starkaos wrote: »
    With a device like the Guardian under the Iconian's control, then they would still be in power. They could have easily stopped any rebellion from occurring. There are numerous powerful races that are no longer around, have gone into hiding, or have left the galaxy that could have created the Guardian or the Doomsday Machines. Some that we haven't heard of before.

    This is the most likely possibility. I have a copy of a Star Trek novel called 'The Buried Age' (here's a link to the Memory Alpha page for it: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Buried_Age), which is intended to fill the gap between Picard's years commanding the Stargazer and the period when he commanded the Enterprise-D. He goes into civilian archaeology, and eventually becomes obsessed with finding some very peculiar, nigh-indestructible ruins left behind by a civilization that died out hundreds of millions of years ago. Throughout the course of the novel, it's indicated that there are lots of civilizations that might have lived and died that archaeologists don't know about, simply because the traces of their existence have been wiped away by the slow march of time. Geological processes, erosion, etc.

    So it seems likely that the Guardian simply has creators that either ceased to exist billions of years ago, or they abandoned it for whatever reason (there are novels that give this some thought, as well).
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